 And now you are good. Good evening, everyone. This is the Thursday, March 18 meeting of the joint capital planning committee, and we are conducting this meeting virtually by orders of the governor because of the COVID. So I want to make sure the members of the committee can hear and be heard. And I will just call each person by their name and just indicate whether you can hear and be heard. Mandy. Tammy. Present. Alex. Present. Peter. Present. And Andy. Up. Andy. I'm here. And Carrie has joined us and Carrie. So I'm calling the meeting to order and all members of the committee are here and we're joined by Sean Magnano and Paul Bachman. Tonight. I mean, I think as everyone knows, we're at the. Think through what our recommendations are. Any remaining questions we have of presentations and Sean sent us an itemized list where we had asked for additional information. And then that's on focusing on the next year budget for capital. And then we also wanted to have a discussion about any thoughts looking at the five year plan. And I'm hoping there will be time with. After both of those to just get a little bit in. Input from people on the format of the report because this, we've gotten a lot more information than we had in the past. And I was looking at earlier JCPC reports and just on any thoughts of the way we want to organize. Like, do we like vehicles all being in one section rather than vehicles plus equipment? So it's a short discussion. Because we're due to have a draft for this. And I think that is doable if I take the word draft. Meaning draft for a discussion. And if we have to, then there is another week reserved, but if we can get to a close enough draft, we can have a discussion of it. So tonight. We'll be the contents of that draft in terms of our recommendations and thoughts of what's going in. So did that cover the basis, Sean, of what we talked about? Okay. So I think the first thing then is to turn to the recommended capital spending for. FY 22. And we have a budget for capital that is matched by the requests rather than being many more millions of requests than we can afford. So I think it's. Are any items on the list of concern to people want to. Single them out remaining questions. And I know you said Jeremiah is going to be. Joining us to answer some questions. So I'm just throwing it open. To everyone. Sean has a comment. Kathy, is it okay if I share my screen? I have a Word document and then that way everyone can kind of see. Maybe what we're talking about. And we can. And I can go over what documents we're talking about. So if anybody wants us to pull anything up, we can. Is that all right with everyone? So we'll go from seeing everyone's face to seeing a screen. Yes. Alex says definitely. All right. So hopefully you see my screen. So Kathy and I spoke a little bit earlier about what would be a productive process for the recommendation discussion. And so we broke it into three parts. So the first part. It's sort of these follow-up items that we talked about. And I mean, we don't have to go through all of them, but I can give you a quick update on some of them. And then the second part is, are there any changes that. I don't know if this is big enough for people to say. Yeah, I think I'm seeing heads nodding. The second part is, are there any changes to the plan that. Committee members need in order to vote on a recommendation? So are there any, you know, anything that, you know, absolutely needs to change either for the FY 22 or for the out years. And then the last piece is, you know, what are things that we might, you might want to say as part of a recommendation vote. So maybe you can recommend it at the plan as it is, but, you know, you want the town manager to think, you know, maybe we should increase these, you know, the chiller project to a V FD. A V FD model, which might be a little more expensive, or maybe there's something in the out years, you know, the North Amherst intersection came up. So maybe it's again, we can vote this plan, but you should think about maybe we keep pushing that off until maybe a grant is acquired. So, so that was sort of how we were going to structure the discussion. And I have the capital improvement document. So if anybody wants to see the actual projects again, and then I also have sort of the workbook. So I know Kathy, you had some more detailed questions, probably when we get more into the farther along in the conversation that I can pull up some of those answers. Okay. Is that clear to everyone? What was recommended here as a way of going through this. And does anybody have any alternatives? I mean, Kathy and I just spoke about it quickly. If anybody. Disagrees with that approach. So I think what we've just laid out is we had these follow-up items, whether anyone wants. More information right now. So we're ready to move from knowing that we've requested this additional information, and we can put that information in the report if we have it. And then do we want to then go from this list to looking at our recommendations? If there are any items in either the. Coming year or the four, four years after that. So I'm going to just wait to hear on this list. And this, this is a. Mainly Sean, but he was taking notes as we went along where we were asking questions and they're captured in the minutes. For either more information, but things like months and what would be the additional cost. If we went all the way to many flits and via and the chiller issue. So we don't have answers to those yet, but that's where we could be making a recommendation. So. Yeah. So thank you. It's kind of related to this one and kind of related to the next one. As I was going back over my notes, you know, some of these say the truck numbers are not consistent, not only between departments, but over years. And then there was one note in the school, one of the school it budgets that they wanted one 94 instead of one, you know, 40 something. So that's additional there. So I guess one of my questions is, you know, I'm not sure where we are right now. I'm not sure where we are right now, but are there really 15,000 that were off this year for FY 22, or do we have to essentially quote, find or cut for more than that? Because I haven't seen an updated sort of. Five year plan that adjusts those numbers. So I'm not sure where we are on. What the actual matching is right now. Yeah. No, that's a good, good point. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Before a final capital improvement program is put together. And you're right about the computers that'll make the gap a little bit. Bigger. So I think it was like a $45,000 increase or $50,000 increase. And so the question would be. Do we go with that? Because that was. That wasn't what was submitted. At the beginning of the process. That was sort of an update that happened that night. So I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would then change how much as a, you know, how much we're over. And if you do want to go with that, you know, along with that would be where would we reduce? You know, there's some areas in here where people said they could reduce as well. So talking about where we would maybe offset that. Okay. Yeah, tell me. Sean, did you talk to Sharon about the computers? Because it's my understanding. It's my understanding. It's my understanding. It's my understanding with the grant. And even though the library will be closed. It will be open somewhere else. Yeah. So I emailed Sharon. I haven't heard my email. Sharon and Sean Hannon. I didn't get a response back yet, but I was going to, once I find out that answer, then. We'll be back next week. Okay. Okay. Because. It concerns me. To, to wait. When they may be needed soon. Okay. Thank you. Tammy, could you just ask her when she does that? Even if some computers are needed, it's not clear yet, at least as I understanding exactly where you'll be physically sitting. So it may be that while the library is closed, you don't need as many computers. You know, so I just, just have her right. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. In words, what the intention is. Okay. I'm asking. Okay. But there may be a case of where, for instance, they would move more computers to Munson. For additional services. So I think that. We need to check with her. I'll email her. Thank you. Alex's hand is up. Yeah, just to follow up on that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know where the library project is going to be, but again, depending on where that is in the process, that's another potential space where we could have a bank of computers. We get a lot of people actually that come over from the survival center and other places who want to use the computers. So I think there's a lot of unknowns for us as the problem. I think to the extent that we can. You know, bulk up the branches to allow for more computer usage as well as the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the issues is digital access for people who don't have digital access. And so. It's just, it's not quite as easy as like we're closed. So we don't need them. I mean, to the extent that we could provide them, we would. So I worry about cutting them out because we think we're closed because I don't think that'll be the case. And I don't think. There are too many unknowns for us to say, you know, if we're closed in the North Amherst library, it's going to be closed or open or expanded and have, you know, be twice the size. So I, I just. Even if we get an answer from Sharon, my guess is it's not going to be a satisfactory answer. Okay. Sean. So Kathy, this may be a good example of one of the types of things that would be sort of a, we recommend the plan and keep this in mind. You know, something for the town manager to keep in mind in those out years. not that we would change the plan as it is but as we get more information to keep in mind that maybe there is room to adjust this number potentially once we get more information but for now to let it be until we get that information. Okay, you know we've got when you said people said they could reduce there's one clear the school when Doug was in he said the copy or budget could be reduced. I think he indicated specifically which but if you could check with him because if that's offsetting money for the money that Mandy said might add an additional 45 that may it might be a way that we could do without this one because one was a big copier and the others were smaller. So he offered reducing it. That's the one I remember really offering reducing it. Yeah I think his rationale was they haven't been used as much this year you know as much as they normally would be so. Yeah and that that that they're therefore not about to break the way they otherwise would have been Peter. Yeah Peter your hand was up but now you're muted. Yes sorry I'll skip the perfunctory apology if I should know how to mute by this point. I guess it just didn't skip. So yeah as we start out here you know thinking about this year's capital budget you know my I would just share that my general impression is that I was surprised over the course of the presentations from all of the service departments including the schools of the lack of of pain and urgency expressed. I've you know generally speaking I've heard and felt a higher level of difficulty on the operational budget side than I have on the capital side and you know just kind of asking the general questions of could we reduce this could we reduce that. I didn't hear a ton of pushback and you know I compare that to some of the really hard discussions we're having on the operational budget side and and it feels you know to me like a bit of a disconnect especially considering the orders of magnitude of some of these amounts you know we had a even with the increased support recently at the schools you know the schools is really in a little budget I know at a detail level you know we're still cutting 372,000 from our our budget and we had a really long discussion a couple nights ago about 75,000 of those cuts they happen to be for for arts integration at the elementary school and I won't go into the particulars of that but you know we spent a really long time on on 75,000 of of level services that would probably be a permanent cut right because we don't typically expect an operational budget in the future that's going to cover inflation and then and then go above and beyond that such that we could restore previous cuts and as and as Sean has mentioned several times you know next year's budget is going to be extremely lean so comfortably hundreds of thousands of more more dollars of services cuts so I compare that level of pain which given the recent years of cuts is pretty significant and I'm sure that this is a similar story to other service departments I don't mean to say that the schools are the only one experiencing pain and I just I try and look at the balance right and that like could we reduce the road repair resurfacing a little bit and then some of the other items and I'll just pick one little one you're not to go through the whole list but the the replacement of the Warren built-in cabin tree and the police and the police building you know I thought that was a very reasonable request very thoughtfully presented it certainly looks like something that needs to be done a relatively small amount of money 25,000 and yet a safe and functional room and I could think off the top of my head when I saw those pictures you know at least a half a dozen other rooms in the schools that are at or worse condition I'm sure Sean could could identify half a dozen of those as well particularly Fort River and Wildwood you know so overall I just I just feel like even at this you know less than 10 and 10 and a half percent budget level that is the town's target there isn't a lot of strain here and I guess the other big item that I find a particularly concern is the North Amherst intersection and streetscape which admittedly I don't know a lot of the history of but that's that's a pretty large amount of borrowing more than more than I don't actually I don't know if it's borrowing it's two and a quarter million for this year and next year it is yeah I don't spread you in front of me but when we're trying to balance you know I'll wrap it up here but I guess when we're trying to balance this year's capital and four projects that I know everybody cares about and not squeezing the operations budget too tightly that seems like kind of a sore thumb thing that sticks out is like well there's there's some pain that we can maybe experience that could offset some of the other places um so this is my initial general thoughts thanks other other people yeah Sean yeah just to respond to that a little bit you know I think some of that is because we do have we are planning for four building projects that in some ways have alleviated some of the the projects on the plan as you know we heard Doug say some of the things have been pushed they're not going to invest in something that isn't going to be there hopefully in four or five years um and so so I think some of that's because we're on track for some of these projects and and we do need to maintain our capital spending in order to do those projects so it's just to keep that in mind that we do we have these projects coming that are one of the reasons why our capital budget our five-year capital plan is in um maybe feeling a little better because we're not investing heavily in those buildings um and then what was the other piece um I think that's all I'll say for now Mandy thank you um it's not often I agree I'm going to start with the agreement with Peter one because it's not often Peter and I actually agree on stuff um but I I want to say I agree with him on the north and Amherst intersection funding um that we should probably either remove it or push it back a couple years um with a note in the report that we should despite that be asking for and applying for grants for it um on the capital side just in general um I will say if we reduce capital spending and move it to operating that makes next year's FY 23's operating budget even leaner and more hard because we have to increase the capital even more than what is planned for the increase between FY 22 and FY 23 right now because at some point we have to get up to 10 percent and we have to do it quickly if we want to have a chance to do the four projects and that's whether or not the library is voted on mblc because we have heard plenty that even if the mblc project is not funded at the library that there is still 15 million dollars or more in work that needs done in that library and needs done quickly um and so yes the operating budgets might be having some pain but the capital budget 50 percent drop in spending this year with no capital spending um and with that we might not be seeing the pain because of how the capital was presented this year it was presented not as it was presented as an attempt at a balanced capital spending plan not what we've seen in past years of millions of dollars off because every project is on the list and then we're figuring out how to do it so that might be why we're not quote seeing the pain as much as we used to see the pain in the capital side I do want to ask about school spending um because I was looking at the capital plan and the unspent money from FY 16 17 and 18 really jumped out at me for the schools because they have 146 000 unspent from just those three fiscal years and we don't know what FY 19 and 20 and 21 is unspent for building improvements 146 000 unspent right now from those three fiscal years for building improvements 33 and a half thousand for tech hardware and yet this year the schools are asking for an additional 194 000 for tech hardware and 150 000 for interior upgrades and ADA improvements and so the question I have is how much do we continue funding at quote typical levels when those levels aren't being spent within I mean FY 16 we're in FY 21 right now that's five years if not six um and so it's not that I'm advocating for cut in building improvements and all for FY 22 per se but I wonder what my question is how long do we let that sit out there without reducing the ask every year from that because they're asked this year in some of these categories is nearly identical to what hasn't been spent in those categories for three fiscal years that are four three four and five years away not the most recent three which could have even more unspent and I just um just add one thing to what Mandy is both asking but I also wonder of the money that hasn't been spent and Sonya will know this are they in categories that could be repurposed um or Shawn would you know that at one point we were able to buy a bus because something hadn't been spent in another we didn't have to find the money we just had to approve repurposing so if there is a backlog and it crosses over to some of the things that have been asked for this year could any of that be spent first on some level yeah so I mean all the all the articles theoretically the cash articles can be repurposed if the departments tell us they don't need it anymore if they say that those projects are done um I think you know on the school side on some of those older facility articles um I'll just say one reason why some of those are still out there is because we there was a lot of turnover facility directors for a few few years in a row um or they had three different facility directors in three years um so you know I do think now that they've got a little bit more stability there that that they've made some progress on that front um but that's just part of it I know that there's other other parts to that um and then maybe Sonia wants to say something about closing out old articles and and um she you know she pushes hard on department heads every year to spend these down as you've heard at council but it probably will be good to hear it again um from Sonia what the process is that we go through every year to get the departments to spend these um articles down well I can talk for the town side on the town side we send out um reports that all department heads have to fill out um of the expected data when they're going to use their capital or finish their projects so we've done that and they've done a really good job of cleaning up a lot of the older articles and when that money's closed out it's closed out to a control account which is on the um report that I the report that shows the capital it it's just a 5 000 number and there's a balance there and all of that I track all the articles that are closed because I have to for the dor but all of that funding can be used to repurpose for capital so it doesn't go to free cash it stays in the capital and if something comes up as an emergency that can be appropriated it can only be repurposed with an appropriation and so that's one of the I'm sure everybody remembers but the the zoning bylaw update half 40 000 of that was a repurposed old article right and that was mainly just to make the art the project up to date again because they had encumbered that they had um asked for that money but they didn't get to the project in time so it was in an older article so instead of asking for 60 000 they asked for 100 we closed that 40 to help fund that so that's something we do all the time that's and I ask on one other that both Mandy and Peter raised on the North Amherst intersection and I agree with both of those comments and number one my understanding from Paul is the 1.8 million would never be us that would always be a grant so that even though it was showing up as if we were spending it is it I just want to verify that we wouldn't we weren't incurring debt for that was one question then the other is if we say push off the request for the 400 plus this year which would also be debt is there a small amount of money that's needed to do the kind of convening you're doing with the Pomeroy um intersection on uh it could look like this it could look like that because I know we already have pictures these were done about five years ago four years ago of various possible things and to get input on it short of an engineering study so we are not spending money on the the more schematic and I I don't I'm not quite sure how we managed to get the Pomeroy money um but it looked like we got enough money to do the specs and do the repairs rather than have to first spend four hundred thousand dollars so I just want to understand what's needed because I think there's a lot of interest in fixing the intersection but not a lot of interest in spending two point two two million dollars of town money um is the way I would frame it yeah so well so yeah so the town heads on for the north Amherst intersection I think twice maybe three times for the exact same grant it was never funded this year we tried a different strategy we went for the Pomeroy village and it was funded so apparently the state felt like this the Pomeroy village with more more compelling applications so we usually go you know attempt to get the funding for major capital projects like this if it's available the work on the outreach has been done uh for north Amherst um you know as you might have mentioned about four or five years ago I think until we know that we're moving forward it wouldn't make any sense to take take on that task that's that's work that's usually done either by consultant or by town staff like for Pomeroy's the town staff doing the outreach and the convening so unless we're confident that we are going to have funding um you know sometimes what happens is that if we can get a design that's farther far enough along and the state says we have we have money for shovel ready projects that's when we move forward and that's why we like to be in positions to move forward on several projects and that's one thing we are kind of you know arguing with us or suggesting to the state that we have several projects in hand that we can move forward on if they have money coming from the federal government they have to spend we're ready to to accept it it's paul you didn't have to spend that first four hundred thousand dollars on Pomeroy is that correct I mean we were able to there's some amount in it that the town is putting in it but I just my understanding when I looked at the budget of it we were able to get it more fully funded um right so so it's a it's a simpler intersection because it's we're not reconfiguring we aligning roads or anything like that um and so yeah that that engineering work is our in kind work from our on our in-house interference yeah andy I think it's so important to note that we've already made a substantial investment by purchasing the gas station that's no longer in business and while we use part of it for parking for the North Amherst library the intent was to make that the major roadway and to reconfigure so that the most likely be grasped between the North Amherst school and the library and really changed the character of the neighborhood so it's a it's a fairly substantial project but not one that hasn't been worked on for a while and hasn't had substantial town investment to get us to the point we're at now no I I totally agree you know I've got all the documents it's more the you know are we ready to spend a large amount of money because we know what we want to do you know and it's just we we don't need to take everyone's time I mean there there wasn't necessarily full agreement between DPW and what um the public groups had come up with this the way they wanted it um so we certainly don't want to apply for money to do the intersection in a way that's a surprise there's a lot of support for fixing the intersection that's for sure yeah any any other items um on both the either request for more information or questions on a should this be recommended or not you know want to be taking it off the recommended list or reducing it in size Mandy so sorry about this but I actually have one for not reducing and this might depend on um what Jeremiah comes in with but I'm concerned that the sustainability improvements line might be too low given some of the answers we got regarding vehicle hybrid options or potential options that haven't been investigated or the boiler systems at South Amherst and Munson and all to make up for some of those differences and you know of course that means we have to find money somewhere else but I just have that concern that it might if if those haven't been investigated and therefore haven't already been built into those lines like they have been for the police vehicles um is my understanding but if there's other vehicles that it hasn't been built into that money in the sustainability may not be enough and then we might not be able to do the more sustainable option because we didn't have the information and didn't budget well enough for it over the next year so would that be a recommendation it's 50 000 line item now so would it be a recommendation to increase it I kind of lean towards that I don't know what to increase it to like you said some of it depends on what Jeremiah's answers may be when we hear from him about some of the questions we had on sustainability matters but it's just a concern I have of it not it won't cover what we need we might need it to Peter I would happily support the increase of a reasonable level that Mandy's talking about see we don't always disagree Mandy um as as long as we take it out of the road repair and resurfacing fund I mean I just think that like we have to like make transparent choices that hurt and like you know we have to take something that we like for example like the North Amherst Intersection Street scape that I'm you know giving a hard time I think it's a perfectly reasonable project it would benefit the town you know but it's I feel like part of the theme that I would like to come across in our recommendations and report to some degree to whatever degree we have consensus right um is we can't have everything and and according to current which might change the current uh first kind of past idea the four projects is that next year's ops budget will be bad will be very painful for our operations and so how do we you know move these things around in in a slightly more spread the pain around manner so yeah I mean we have very aggressive sustainability goals that uh you know are going to be hard to attain and we need to start investing in that at some point um so you know what what are the trade-offs so I I mean I would be open to that kind of discussion Alex I just have a question about I know that um with the road resurfacing sidewalks that a lot of the push was to sort of get out from behind and get out from under you know I think there's sort of this diminishing returns you get too far behind right then you can't sort of climb your way out and so um I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Peter I guess my question more to CPW or the town is like do we still need to be doing the level I mean I know we're not even remotely on top of our road resurfacing but like what is what is the pain threshold to make sure we don't get into a hole that we can't climb out of ever so the can I answer that Kathy yeah so the goal was before these four projects come online was to put a lot of as much money into roads as possible because they hadn't been funded at a high level before and so before these um you know before a lot of the capital goes towards these new buildings we were trying to um fund at a much higher level the roads and so there still is a backlog um so you know that's why we kept the number for FY 22 at a higher number and if you look at the plan you know you'll see that number start to go down and out years as the building debt comes on and I just I got um a good friend of ours who lives in South Amherst made a comment that she thinks the roads are in better shape than she can ever remember them um which is an interesting comment you know it's not a neighbor I know who's talking about his potholes but she was wondering of the fact that we were closed a way down for car traffic during COVID for 12 months that we didn't get the type of wear and tear on our roads that we would normally have had for a 12 month period do we have any evidence of that other than you know the particular road she happened to drive on we're in good shape you know so I you know this is one person's impression that usually by March of a year it's when we start seeing the ravages of winter on our roads um Holly would say that our um our insurance claims are down for potholes and things of that nature so so that's a a small piece of anecdotal evidence that maybe the fewer people are on the roads and and maybe there's fewer potholes Paul Paul you have your hand up yeah so I don't have the report in front of me but a few years ago the town did do an assessment of its roads and I think it came out to be that there was about two million about ten million dollars worth of road work that we've done they projected about two million dollars needed per year and that's what we've been trying to attack the last four years we have increased our contribution into road improvements I think you're seeing the result of that I think you're at that's an accurate anecdotal statement there is there's still a lot of side roads that haven't been addressed we mainly focused our efforts on the on the um major roads that you'll see on northeast southeast I think things like that um I think you know the I think some road traffic makes a difference but really makes the biggest differences weather so when they're freezing and thawing that's what breaks up the roads the quickest um and so we haven't had that much of that this year and that's actually been a blessing we we could still have more of that because this is the rainy this is the season where it starts to happen in March right jeremy Jeremiah is not in the room yet I can't see everybody yes yes oh oh yes perfect um Kathy do you want to go to Jeremiah for the facility pieces sure you have to admit him oh I have to I have to admit him oh he's in allow me to stop sharing for a second there he is all right hey Jeremiah can you um hear us I can so um you were going to provide a little bit more information on the um the potential to upgrade the chiller at the police station and the h of access and at months in um to a you know the highest efficiency system that we could do there yeah certainly so it's it's I would say for for the police department it's been a little bit more of a challenge um I've attempted to reach out to train as they're one of uh uh just a huge dealer of both chillers and also vrf systems and had some some challenges but working through a local hvac vendor that the town uses quite a bit and in neighboring municipalities use um had a good discussion about each of the different projects and tried to come up with some better numbers uh more accurate numbers would really have to have to be done by an engineer uh really you would need someone to go in and and do an evaluation of each of the spaces and the thermal load of the building um for the police department you know it's a 24-hour facility and then figuring out what option you're going with um but so thinking about the police department we do have a hydronic system there as as I said in the last meetings um so I wanted to approach it with in two different ways looking at it as a full vrf change out or what can we do with our current system so maintaining as much of the current system as possible but still um shooting for our our sustainability goals and ultimately replacing equipment that is it's going to fail us um if we were to go with a full vrf system that would obviously be the most expensive uh the vendor estimated probably around eight to nine hundred thousand if we were to do full vrf uh and and also would probably have the largest impact on the operations of the facility uh just due due to the amount of work that it would take so you would have all these condensers outside and then you would have all these cassettes indoors well you would need to get into every one of those spaces you would either be on the wall or above the ceiling all that refrigeration line would have to be run branch boxes so so the impact to the operations would be tremendous it really would be difficult while they were doing that work uh but could it be done certainly okay and and also a full vrf system would probably give us the best amount of control and the best control overall for the space condition but as i as i said it comes with the greatest cost so the other thing i wanted to look at is just replacing a chiller what if we just replace the chiller so what are our options our options are to replace the chiller with an electric chiller uh that has a heat pump so essentially it's going to operate very much like a vrf system a chiller with a heat pump will condition and give you cold air for through the the summer season but then in the heating season it's going to heat that water so it does both and actually the system the chiller that i was looking at can do it simultaneously so if we did have the hydronic loop that would support it i could both heat the building and cool the building at the same time and i really feel that this is probably the easiest and the best route to go so uh train has has a chiller it's a modular chiller it's called the polytherm and that's that was the one that really caught my eye most vrf systems if people understand some of the um energy efficient ratings could be anywhere between 11 and 16 sear now this this piece of equipment is at 20 operates at 28 sear so it is well beyond the energy efficiency of most vrf systems but i i want to say that that's always theoretical when you're in the field and it's practical it changes but let's let's start with those very high numbers and then we work our way backwards so i think it has a lot of positives so this system could could essentially you remove that chiller and put this new chiller in place the existing plumbing is six inch that that has a six inch hookup so so fashioning this piece of equipment this new piece of equipment into our existing building would be much much easier and we would be able to essentially eliminate our our reliance on fossil fuels although again i will say i as i did last time i would love to we have brand new boilers boilers let's just keep them if we had a full week of negative 20 degrees we want some redundancy but it would be very very seldom used so so really i would like to pursue this this avenue this alternative to a full vrf system uh and in the the hvac contractor his numbers that he was saying probably about four to five hundred thousand so we were we were in the same ballpark um but i but i think that this is probably uh a good direction to look any any questions on that or do you want me to continue with monsoon Jeremiah can or Kathy can i ask Jeremiah one follow-up question from a maintenance perspective Jeremiah do these systems last you know 30 years or 25 years and are they similar in terms of ongoing maintenance that needs to be done and do we have the expertise to maintain them yes and no so some of that that equipment is very specialized uh but but is it something that's beyond what uh an hvac company that typically deals with that type of equipment it wouldn't it wouldn't require like a specialist from train or carrier uh you could have that equipment maintained by a local vendor who is experienced with chillers uh what what would me or or other town staff do as operators there wouldn't be a lot for us to do it would be more visual inspections it would be it would be maintaining the water loop more than anything because if we maintain that water loop that's going to help maintain the equipment i would say a new piece of equipment like that should be maintained by the manufacturers or or someone that the manufacturer recommends uh that it's it is a different it is a different type system our current chillers uh essentially tube and shell and this one has plate chillers in it so it's a whole different animal elix you have a question or comment yeah i guess i'm you had talked about the efficiency of the systems and there's sort of this odd conversation where we're a group who talks about capital and there's a different group who talks about operating but the reality is the efficiencies of the system are going to impact the operating budgets so it feels it feels awkward for us to be talking about sustainability and efficiencies in a vacuum that don't relate to the operating budgets for the police department um is there a significant difference in terms of efficiency um between the vrf system and the replacing that you're talking about from an operational perspective if they're roughly the same equivalency and efficiency then my guess is no but um just curious i wouldn't i wouldn't expect there to be a lot of difference in the operational budget the one thing that we would have to consider when we when we consider operational expenses and what we may see for for the police department would be a lot of the you know i i talked about maintaining this hydro hydronic loop well all of the other accessories and there are fan coil units uh those fan coil units are really just a fan motor in a box could we experience those motors are degrading will we have to replace some of those motors yes absolutely um and what would we get if we had a full vrf system well we would have brand new equipment that that shouldn't need any any repairs for some time it would just be basic cleaning filter changes um so i would i would anticipate there being some ongoing uh operational expenses but those are ones that we have now you know if i need to replace a fan coil motor you know it's the ninety seven dollars to buy a new motor and have it have it put in and then essentially the box is great you know i change a filter um but but looking at it from like a utility uh expense i would have to i would have to look at the chiller more so to see what it would require a full vrf system does have a huge electrical load and it would be nice to have that offset with solar and i know that is something that we are looking at for for the police department either instance so if we were going with the chiller or the vrf system i would say would be wonderful to have it offset with with solar and i think that that's something that that i i i think us as a town we really absolutely have to look at because that's the next step you know if we if we're adding all this electrical let's offset it with renewables um but i i couldn't give you a good solid figure on what would be more or less um efficient as far as utilities what's going to drive up operational costs more so i i think that is police department so maybe go to months and at this point sure and so months and i i submitted a bunch of documents and plans and uh over to the hvac company and again we had a good long discussion about months and um and so in doing so he i had a few options options these are ideas really but i had a few ideas for him and said what if we did this what if we went full vrs vrf nets a duckless system or what if we tried to reduce some of the expenses and maintain our existing duck work and just went with a vrf system but it works through an air handler could we do that so trying to be fiscally responsible but also achieve the goals that we're we're looking for and ultimately i would say for the hall section so we have one furnace that that satisfies the heating and ventilation for the main hall and the basement area the air handler so looking at a vrf system with an air handler for the indoor unit it wouldn't be able to satisfy that space we would have to do it at like a traditional duckless system that you would know so you would see in that hall some some type of equipment whether it be sort of a wall mount down below like a cabinet or it be up towards the ceiling as some type of cassette but that would be what would what we would have to do to satisfy the heating and cooling of that space uh the library we may have a few other options but ultimately uh through our discussion we felt that full vrf would be the best way to go as months and really isn't all that big we just have to deal with a very large space for the hall um he he said that he anticipates the cost being around between 110 and 120 000 for that building so in the capital i said probably around 150 in hopes that maybe i could bundle some other energy conservation measures for the building so one of the big areas that we need beyond uh just changing out this heating and cooling is provide some additional insulation for that hall if we were to go up on top of that hall there's only a few inches of blown in insulation that cover the archway to that main hall so i really need to get some better insulation on that and that will that will help bring down the the heating and cooling load for that space so trying to look at this as an energy conservation project so hvac replacement but also looking at at doing something with that that archway and insulating and if there's if there's additional money then ceiling fans would vary would help very much in that space too mandy so um you just said you'd like 150 000 and i this might be for shawn i'm looking at the f y 22 it looks like we had 30 000 um um put in for hvac at months in am i missing something or is the new yeah so there's a nine there's a 90 000 i believe there's a 90 000 article that already exists oh okay yeah so that 30 000 will bring up to 120 so if we want to go to the 150 we would add 30 more okay yeah i don't know shawn is there was there some other amounts that was somewhere or yeah i mean i thought about potentially um you know some of those those building improvement like the big building improvement budget potentially could cover some of that or the sustainability budget especially if we increase it could be put towards some of that um or we could just increase that by 30 000 and you know so it's dedicated to line it up there so so building on mandy's question then shawn um you know other than the specific number will this lead to a revision of what you have in the list for f y 22 or is that extra 30 somewhere that that's fungible in some way so so my hope is that you guys will make a recommendation on what you think we should do and then the town manager will update that for what you know take that feedback from your recommendation and update the plan before it goes to the council so if you think that um you know my guess is the town manager probably already has some thoughts on potentially increasing that to to go with the more sustainable option but i think it would be even better if you recommended that and then that way um you know we can factor that in before we make the final version and i think some things you know it's good if you identify where the offsetting um money will come from so if we're going to spend 30 more then what are we spending 30 less on you don't have to um you know if you just think we should um you know that's also fine but you know it would also be good to hear thoughts on um you know we've got a couple areas that departments identified where maybe we could spend less so we've got a couple target areas whether it be computers or or copiers um but also and you know at least one committee members of roads peter somewhere down there um so so we've got a couple areas um to look at for the final version and i and i just i guess i would just also like to say is if at the end of the day and i and i needed to be less for the library section could i go with the air handler for the indoor unit uh that would be that would be significantly less money than putting a an air handler unit in each space so rather than be putting in seven units i'm putting in one that can handle that space is but we are relying on the older ductwork and the the newest that ductwork was was uh reworked was in 1988 so it's uninsulated uh it there it's not sealed it's not in so you are going to have some infiltration you're going to have leakage um ultimately i would love to just go full ductless there and and be done because there's always these projects where you go am i doing enough we we have this target this sustainability goal and and i and i you know am i doing enough is it enough to just get rid of the fossil fuels and put these systems in ultimately it may not be and that's why i want to bundle in do the best i can bundle in the insulation and try to try to really do the most i can for each facility um i alex and andy's hand are both up i didn't see which order so andy why don't you go and then alex i just had a question which is uh whether there's any data available as to which sections of the munson building in which other building for buildings in general how many of them are used how many hours per week i mean we know for example of the police station is a 24 seven building and most of our other buildings are not um the branch libraries are not open seven days a week um they're on more limited hours so is there that kind of uh information available and does that help us think through this conversation i i do believe that there is some some of that information uh there i i believe someone i don't know if it's angela or jennifer that that records some of that information or has for for the munson um so i yeah i agree that is important information i'd also like to know uh just have it as a note that if we did full vrf system um that that we would be able to uh essentially section off some areas so you could go easily go down to an unoccupied mode so that you're heating and cooling less than that space if we were going to maintain the duct work that's in there and just use an air handler unit i'm going to be heating or cooling all of those spaces the same so if the hall's not being used or the stage area or the basement's not being used then there's great opportunities to save money by controlling that uh heating and cooling system so alex and then carry i guess i want to make sure i was understanding what shan was asking of us so i think what i understand of the budget is for the munson there's already 90 000 set aside what's in this budget is 30 000 which gets us to 120 and a full vrf system you're estimating between 110 120 000 and then for the police station you weren't recommending the full vrf for the 800 and 900 you are recommending the replacement between 400 and 500 and the ask is 400 so i personally having having been admired in you know hvac in the library and the level of detail like do not want to be telling police in town what to do with their building so i i mean i guess i don't know if shan's looking for us to say like go is sustainable is makes sense and we approve the budget which i think is the recommendation that you're making that one we go full vrf and one we don't like i like to me like i like i just have this whole disconnect between like capital and operating or like it's all linked you know what i mean and i just don't want to be in this bubble of like full vrf go forward spend all the money that doesn't make any sense to me so i i guess i want to better understand what you're looking for from us in terms of recommendations around these systems is this a question to me alex i don't know who it's two what are you guys looking for so so that this is one of the reasons why i kind of thought there'd be two buckets to the recommendation discussion so you know if you feel really strongly or if the committee feels really strongly yes we should go to that higher level then i think you would recommend that we change it to that higher level if it's sort of like what you just said alex or maybe it's um it's hard to make that decision right now um again maybe you recommend it as it is but say you know you should seek more input on this area and consider increasing it um up to that higher level if you know if you know you know like the um the ecac is coming out with their plan soon like maybe if we get that in time that will dictate where we go with this um so so that's why there's sort of two buckets or two tiers of recommendations things that um like we you want us to change and things that you want us to consider potentially changing with more information which i know that's not really helpful but just carry carry you get to jump in to oops you're muted all right two questions um so the first is kind of we're talking hvac systems and the school committee we've been talking about hvac systems with regards to covid and potentially you know having more air exchanges being optimal for for dealing with that i know will hopefully won't won't be in the same world but i don't think we're ever going to stop caring about exchanges um so i was wondering if there's any advantage or disadvantage to moving to this VRS system compared to what was proposed earlier um from that framework like thinking about airflow in the building um the the second thing i think is a much bigger question so generally i'm i'm in favor of the idea of moving towards a more sustainable um greener option here this is kind of a big town question i mean you know adding 30 000 here are we you know is it going to give us the most bang for our buck in terms of being green greener so like is there a 30 000 we could spend elsewhere to you know save carbon emissions someplace else and the problem is that i i think what we're alluding to here with like the lack of communication between operations and it's too like we're we have this is sustainability pot of money and i think it makes sense to spend it because we it's it's our values as a town that we want to reduce our carbon emissions but i'm just wondering is there like a way we could say we're all for spending 30 000 if it's going to improve our efficiency for town this much but if there's another place we could put that 30 000 where it would actually reduce our carbon emissions even more then i'd be happy to to redirect the money there i i apologize because i'm not a town council i'm looking to those of you who actually look over more agencies than just like you know i'm pretty narrowly focused on the schools but i remember that's something i came back to a lot when we were talking about you know spending the money on a really big boss is that there were more efficient ways of spending the money to get a you know um having a bigger impact in terms of our carbon footprint uh sean sorry quick follow-up to that um so both of these projects are on the list because the hvac systems are sort of failing and need to be replaced so so we have to do something to these hvac systems and the question is you know if this is a 20-year or 30-year investment um you know it's not like a vehicle where you know we may have another shot at going for electric or hybrid and you know in five to ten years with something like this we're stuck with it for 20 to 30 years um so i think you know hearing more from Jeremiah about you know these systems that will get us you know will potentially be net zero ready um you know i think it makes sense to at least explore those you know allocating the funds now for those projects yeah and to answer your questions so the first question about ventilation system if we were to maintain the equipment that's in the Amherst police department and just changing out the chiller uh we would really be making no impact to the ventilation side of the system there's still there still would be air handlers that are pulling fresh air from the outside and in mixing that um and that so you would be still pulling in some of that that good air from the outdoors and as well as dealing with you know that stale air so you'd be discharging some of that if we were to do a full VRS system over at Munson additional ventilation would be necessary that's something that i'm looking at with Sean right now and hope and hopefully we can uh we can get it through CARES so if the VRS system for Munson is about 110 to 120 thousand dollars my estimation for energy recovery ventilation system in ERV is probably between about 25 to 30 thousand dollars per building that i'm that i'm looking at so that would kind of put me at that 150 if i could get the the ERVs paid for by CARES which would be a bonus then i want the insulation because you know we need all of these measures ultimately to reduce our fuel usage or our energy consumption so yes at Munson we would need to do something at the police department we'd be okay and to speak on that second point and this is probably something i should have noted last time i met with you you all the Munson the Munson library needs a refill a full tank refill of oil every three weeks every three weeks so if anyone burns number two fuel at home that's a 275 gallon tank three weeks i'm through that and that's what the hall virtually empty not being used so i'm running that usually in the mid 50s that space so i'm not really doing much if that hall was being utilized by all our groups i would have to turn that heat up and right now i'm burning through a tank of oil every three weeks besides these being circa 1952 they really got to go so it sounds like you need the insulation then as well yes and windows i have a list so it's i there are three hands up peter i think first and then mandian alex yeah so i have the same what do you want for me take as alex so plus one on that but if you're looking for a recommendation sean i say you know without getting into the whole rigmarole a higher level on the munson the lower level on the police and try and offset it from something else that's already been proposed okay next i'm not sure which one hand went up first mandy man yeah i don't have an order here i'm just looking at the screen mandy alex alex went up okay so i guess all of these conversations are making me think along the lines of the conversations that we had around vehicles right like having a plan around vehicles and i know that we're putting together a capital inventory plan but i mean so i'm thinking about like as we start thinking about sustainability and climate resilience and things like that like we need to have a climate resilience hub in town i don't know what that building is but like if we determine that a building is if the police station is our climate resilience hub then i want the air exchange is really well good like there are certain things that i think i would want out of a building that's designated as like that hub that i might not care as much about other buildings and so again for me coming back to like making decisions in a vacuum and not knowing and then also you know i know like if you go to the energy star website they rank municipal buildings in terms of like which building is probably your biggest polluter right and i mean typically it's libraries which is why like i'm a really big fan of like fixing the library but i don't actually know for our town if that's true because all of our buildings need to have their hvac systems replaced and so i mean so i think the more we do to move toward sustainability the better but the more information we have to be making decisions with a limited budget in the right places like targeting you know the vrf systems like if we only have this pot limited pot of money right let's target it in buildings that are going to be our climate resiliency hubs or that where we're going to get the most bang for a buck in terms of energy efficiency for the town so i guess for me and that's not going to happen this year i guess if this if this conversation is going to continue as we as we move forward that's the kind of information that would be helpful i think uh tammy uh said mandy than tammy thank you um if you're looking for a recommendation from me uh i have one question for jeremiah but it would be definitely to the vrf you know in the months and we're need to replace it anyway and so let's go with the one that seems the way to go for all sorts of reasons um you know i'm certainly not against questioning or going to question uh jeremiah's belief on the chillers with the heat pump at the police station either because i'm not an expert so let's go that way um it sounds like jeremiah would like more more money 30 000 in addition to what's in this plan for insulation and potentially ceiling fans and all of that and so i guess one the question i have for jeremiah is does that need to be done simultaneously is there an efficiency for doing that simultaneously or is that something we could put into a recommendation for hey if we can find the 30 000 for f y 22 let's get it and if we can't let's move it to f y 23 or four because it sounds like given a tank every three weeks that it desperately needs insulation and and all i've known myself about these things are the better insulated it is the better these type of systems heat pump systems work um so we wouldn't want to ignore the insulation but um if it if there's no efficiencies in doing it at the same time because you're already in say the you know in the ceilings or something then maybe it's something we could say if we can't find the money for f y 22 let's see if we can find it for f y 23 or four yeah i i agree i would have to say that the insulation is not an absolute need while the heating system is being replaced um but perhaps we can consider some of the all building fund because that's both for interior and exterior so if if we needed to maybe we can lean on that pot of money uh so that we can uh be about as efficient as we can at the you know once they i get to turn the key on and you know we're we're using that that new system kami yeah i just like to echo um my support for months and in particular seeing as i live around the corner and i take ls sse classes there i've gone to district meetings in the basement i mean prior to covet and i obviously go to the library a lot and i know the heating in the cooling is really uneven right now and um i agree that it seems really foolish to be heating the hall when nobody's in it and sometimes when we take classes there's too much heat and we have to open the windows that's for yoga and so it's just been really uneven and uncomfortable and i'm thrilled at the idea of having it updated energy efficient system and so you can close off some of the areas and not have to pay for oil every three weeks that's really horrible thank you so um at least i'm hearing consensus on this john so yeah that's what i was going to say is i think i think we've got enough to go with on this um to put into a draft report and then we can get people's feedback next time so the other so sorry kathy what they got to ask is if there's any other questions on facility other facility items while jeremiah's here okay thank you you're off the hook jeremiah thank you so we're still on the we're still on f y 22 and i guess are there any other um issues that need a discussion before we talk about recommendation on f y 22 mandy i mean we have to find we potentially should recommend somewhere to get rid of somewhere between 15 and 60 000 or so um and that's you know simply because it's not in balance right now and i'm sure the manager would like to hear where that recommendation might be to get it to balance um i'm not sure i know i have i don't think i have a strong preference at this point to say myself where i would do it but i think we need to talk about that well in my memory on the school copiers was there was potentially and john i'd just have to go back and look at notes there was potentially 35 or 50 000 in that and what i don't remember is whether it was the big copier rather than the small because there's a differential price on them um so that's the only thing where literally it was offered to us that we don't necessarily need all of that right now this year um it wasn't peter saying can't you bear some pain here so um but i'm if anyone else has any memories of areas because a lot of these are smaller you know we there were a couple places where the price tag for a truck was not the same and one was higher versus lower so if we could get both at the lower price that would be great um you know and i think dave zomek said oh it's only a five thousand dollar difference but a five thousand helps when you're talking about 15 so that's some of just fine tuning numbers so both alex and peter have their hands up um alex then peter go i always try and deflect and wind a big purse um yeah i this is such a small amount this year that i i mean if the town manager or finance director are leaning a certain way i mean i'm i'm i always feel badly about the person who comes before us and is like i'm willing to cut where the other people aren't willing to cut you know what i mean like that to me is not reflective of where cuts can be made that's reflective of the person presenting so with such a small amount if they have an idea like i'm fine with that so i would look to ask if there's a place where you're seeing that number shon i mean i think the one place we would want to look both on the town side and school side as computers only because cares has been been able to do so much um with technology and so you know i want to talk to jerry and shon a little bit more before you know saying a specific amount um but that's the one area that kind of jumps out to me just because i know we spent a lot on that with cares oh peter yeah so um the fact that it is a small amount does raise the question could we could we spread it out so thinly across so many things that it would be virtually painless to any one thing right because because because they all come in and conservatively they're like oh i said 120 but it's really going to be somewhere between 100 and 105 and which is appropriate i'm not bashing that that's that's what you should do because of cost overruns and whatnot you know i come back for another article um but that that's one way that the copier if i recall was the larger copier at the high school it was like 49 or something um if if i recall and shon you can check this with dug um it was it was something that we could defer but is but we're going to have to do relatively soon so it wasn't um wasn't another five or ten years right it was it was the fact that it hadn't really been used um to its normal usage um given covid yes so i think the copier request was for two smaller copiers at the elementary schools and then um one part of the bigger copier at the high school um that serves both the elementary school and the high school or the elementary school system and the high school system um sonia is is texting me some positive news that if you i don't think we can do this for all of it but for the smaller gap there are 15 000 we could potentially look at some of the older articles and and close some of those out some of the repurposing either articles that have already been closed out or do another pass at some of the older ones and see if there's anything we can eke out of there andy so maybe too late to do it for this year but is i've listened to the process through this year i get the sense that to a certain extent in this is just honest dealing honestly as people do um they put in the higher amount for the each of the projects that they're working on and then they assume that they won't have to come back and if there's some turn back that's good it works out for you the department for the town as a whole and um as a consequence we may be in the position we're on capital we tend to over budget a little bit um when you're taken across the board approach and um from our experience last year uh it or for the current year early instance we're in stolen um in that year um it makes me wonder whether we should be um not doing that and whether we should be instead creating a regular reserve fund as we did this year um and then directing and suggesting that the manager had that fund to use at discretion when um costs don't come in to the extent that they expected so that we don't pick it what the cuts have to be but we're giving the discretion to the manager to make that decision as the year proceeds and uh he and Sean and Sonia see how the um actual costs are coming in against what was projected at this point in time can I ask Sandy you said this would be for a future year are you thinking a some of this would be called a reserve and then there would be specific requests well we can do it this year too um but um when I was saying future years I was thinking of being more directive in future suggesting that we'd be more directive in future years about um how uh numbers are submitted within the capital plan to begin with and um that's the part that is probably too late to work on but um we could just uh doing across the board cutting in a certain some percentage in virtually everything unless we have an absolute solid number and uh roll that money into a reserve and um then give that discretion during the year to use it where it's most important necessary to use it there's a and Sonia has her hand up and then I'll you know if Sean probably wants to respond to that but Sonia I saw your hand go up so hear me yes okay first time I've used the headphones that's why I just want to remind everybody that when we're voting this capital um plan it's it's all one number so we have it's really a bottom line dollar amount that we're voting but some projects come under and some projects come over and it is perfectly within the um within the um mass general laws to allow us to move if there's excess in one account we can move it to the other account that there's a little deficit too so we do have some of that flexibility too so I just wanted to remind everybody of that Sean and my one follow-up was going to be you know if people don't feel strongly about any one project to reduce um I don't necessarily think it's a good idea to reduce everything I think at that point it would be better just to make your recommendation of what you want to increase and I can work with Paul and we can work with the departments to see what logically makes sense to um reduce um I don't think we need to you know again unless there's something that jumps out that the group wants to reduce I don't think it's probably super productive to you know think of all these different ways to kind of eke out a small amount of savings so what what I've heard in terms of the increases so far I'll go up on Munson to insulate unless Jeremiah thinks he can find that 30,000 and then Mandy's suggestion on your sustainability 50,000 is too low those are the two I've heard um so I don't know whether and whether we had you know like double the sustainability and that's another 50,000 so I don't know whether that's what you're looking for like there are two areas that increases Mandy. Yeah so I would say now that I've heard from Jeremiah um that I'm not as sold on my own suggestion to increase it as much I was concerned about those HVAC numbers and what they might be but but with more information you know the borrowing will do when we need to and it sounds like the Munson could fit within that 50,000 or there might be other ways to get that extra 30 but otherwise it's already there and so then it's just the the vehicle so it might not be as critical to raise it above the 50 of course if there's more too and and other things come in then we might decide differently but I'm not as set on it anymore. So did your hand go back up or did you just not come down that's okay okay so where um I'm just trying to do uh probably should do a time check too but I so far what I've heard is there is um there were several voices that said um North Amherst intersection seems like a big piece and to reduce it and or push it out of it doesn't actually hit this year's spending because it was proposed to be debt but to push it out and I had asked so and we can't right now see exactly what that debt is or maybe we can but it yeah I can tell you I didn't know whether the 1.8 million was also shown on it but it doesn't hit us till the FY 23 so that gives us some breathing room in FY 23 but that's the only thing I've heard um that people were calling into question as a line item at all at this point and we talked around months in that I think we're back to Jeremiah thinking he may have enough money because he can pull off his general fix it fund for the insulation so it's and then the sustainability how far you can stretch that 50 yeah if we take off the North Amherst intersection it saves us about um 200 230 000 um out in FY 24 that's when the the projected debt payments would start so if we take it off completely it would it would give us that much more available if we push it out then it would just push that number out into future years can't carry I just want to be a voice to say that I as I wasn't at the presentation so I apologize but I just I just find that North Amherst intersection absolutely frustrating as a resident so I I think if we take it completely like I would have a huge problem if we take it just as a resident I want to be a voice for you know something needs to be done there and I think there's been a lot of planning put into it and when I was looking at the the documentation it was listed as a high priority item um it was the top level so I I I just want to be a voice for it was you know maybe we could make a suggestion to to think about the size of it but it's a problematic part of town and and I think there's a lot of safety concerns there too and so as a pedestrian who's tries to jog through there and somebody tries to drive through there be a voice for that no I think there is that you know the 1.8 wasn't supposed to be on is is a grant and it just is 450 the right amount for whatever it is we need to do so we can secure a grant would be one question um and there is you know just so people know there is this other uh and Alex I see your hand up but there is this other issue up here I I hate the intersection I I'm just a mile up the road from it but um there's a possible large project coming in that we keep hearing coming soon but not clear but if it would do it would be a big um new building with offices and with makerspace which would increase the traffic and we haven't seen what the traffic will look like with the beacon north square being fully open yet because it started to be fully occupied but then everybody left and wasn't driving their car anymore you know so there is the potential that as bad as it is it could get worse um so I think there is interest on it and it's just more a feeling of you don't want to spend a lot of time on engineering something where we haven't already made a decision what we really want and then you know the state funding so just getting some consensus because there wasn't there were good diagrams and I'm not sure DPW had the same idea as what people thought they had a grade on so that was just a background piece on you know spending money on something that everybody wants would be great um so Sean you were and and I think Alex's hand was up to Alex's hand was up okay yeah Alex yeah I think I just want to echo sort of Carrie's comment I feel like the North Amherst intersection feels like Manny Jo had a comment and Kathy had a comment and I suspect you know more as counselors than than we do so I'm hesitant to speak as JCPC on the North Amherst common or the North Amherst intersection because the reality is I mean I know how it impacts the library I know I don't like it when I go volunteer at the survival center but like I don't feel like as a JCPC member I have enough information to make any comments relative to the budget and so I think I sort of echo Carrie's like I'm happy to put a placeholder on it but like yeah I don't know enough to be speaking as JCPC on that matter okay so it sounds like we write some sentences to say this Sean yeah and I you know I hesitate to open up this box but you know the question could be whether the North Amherst life or North Amherst intersection is on the plan or in that section of projects that are on the radar that we're waiting for a group you know if we truly are just going to keep it there until we get a grant then do we want it on the plan or not because again my goal this year was to try to only put things on the plan that you know when we get there we're going to do them not to just keep pushing them out every year so if it's something that we're really are just going to wait for a grant and we're not going to put any money into then we may want to put it down in that other section of the plan and just leave it there so we don't lose sight of it but just we know it's there Mandy Sean brought us into a question I was actually in a request I was actually going to do because there's a number of Amherst recreation items on this list that are right for CPA funds but they're on this list particularly for FY 23 and FY 24 the War Memorial playground and the Mill River playground and so the request I was going to have is can we somehow in these CIPs and these lists put a star or mark somehow mark with some different coloring or a footnote or something those particular projects that you know have potential other sources of funding and that will be going for those other sources of funding but if they don't get them we need to consider doing them ourselves after maybe one or two years of asking for that funding you know I mean because if Mill River doesn't get the funding from CPA next year maybe we would decide not to wait another year to request CPA again and that goes to your thing of trying to put things in that would be spent when we get there and and that's where I see sort of North Amherst I think we're struggling with the the amount of the ask when some of it was for construction not just design development and there's a goal to get a grant for some of that and but the grant but but it's still on here even if there is no grant so I think that's that's where I'm going somehow mark the potential ones that have potential for grant cool so I think that's a really good point Mandy Jo in terms of the CPA committee you know town staff have been trying to put more and more of the town projects to CPA I think CPA I mean Kathy you go to their meetings as to Sonya sometimes they push back because they say this is not town you know projects but I think if the council were to look at a policy format formulation that said CPA should prioritize these things as a blanket statement to the CPA to give them guidance in their decision-making it might have some real impact in terms of how they prioritize their decision-making thank you so where where are we other than we are at 830 for sure or 833 I think we've gone around and we've done most of FY 22 and what I don't know is whether people want to take a vote on a set of recommendations Sean is taking notes and we can feed them back in terms of recommendations you know looking at this master list whether we're basically voting to accept the list as proposed with these two these two or three areas to be reexamined or not so I'm looking for any kind of how to get us to the next step and we will and then we can write can write this up and you know in a draft format so people can look at it next week but I did want to also spend I see your hand Peter I also want to spend just a little bit of time on the next four years so Mandy raised the CPA whether there are any items looking out in those out years and I have just purely one that Andy mentioned last time on it not calling everything cash capital making the table a little bit clearer and that's just nomenclature yeah there were a lot of formatting the first when we presented the capital improvement program there are a lot of formatting recommendations and suggestions so we'll we don't need to include those now but we'll factor all those things in when we update it okay so Peter yeah I mean I'm happy to take a vote I think tonight it would be a little hard without seeing what we've talked about updated in front of us but you know I'm only give it a whirl it's after 830 my brain turns a little mushy but you know let's we'll see how it goes um and then my one bit of feedback and I'm not sure whether which whether this falls in this fiscal year the next five fiscal years but on this this topic of what we put on the pending list um so um one of our first meetings I had brought up concern about putting the cracker farm feasibility study on that um and I just wanted to raise that again but um but really the distinction here for me is is is is making it very clear um the things that we've studied versus the things that have been decided on and approved right and so if it's the town can do a feasibility study which means evaluating what's possible and adding some cost estimates to it for anything right you could do could we add a planetarium addition to the jones which I would be totally supportive by the way um but then that would you know the town would receive that it would be fyi information and then it would sit on a shelf until the appropriate body had reviewed and approved it like planetarium case would be the library trustees right and so we wouldn't we wouldn't put it in um in a public document that says this isn't the queue it just needs funding or just some planning before the appropriate body had discussed in green and greenlit it and that's that's the case for the cracker farm feasibility study which was a very helpful study it's it's already helped informed our our capital plan but includes a lot of things including an expansion that the school committee hasn't spent any time talking about or discussing it all and um so it it's uh it's confusing to have it on a list of items that that are pending like that um and I just want to be really clear because this comes up on occasion that I think it's totally fine for members of the public who already feel one way or the other on one or more of the items in any feasibility study including this one to advocate for that and that's like very healthy civic engagement um and and I'm I'm not suggesting we take it off the pending list because I am against it and I'm not expressing that I'm for it either I'm trying to be very neutral here because my whole committee hasn't discussed it at all um so I just think from a process point of view um it's it's better situated not being on that list so I can thank you so that is that's in this not just the five-year capital plan but that other initial table that that Sean gave us on the what else is out there um as as a list so that is also a decision whether that becomes part of this larger document or that's the uh town manager will I mean we're advising the town manager and he will have this larger capital plan so what I've heard on FY 22 um as a package that we could vote on tonight is that you know there's the long list and that we're comfortable with that list where we with one exception in terms of possibly increasing it and that's the sustainability fund and we either want more information or we want better justification of the North Amherst intersection or how near are we and do we really need that money now for the study and if if we're not near um you know in terms of getting a grant if we do that to potentially remove that or decrease it and otherwise I haven't really heard anything um about that so if those if that is the package then I think we could say that is what we're you know there's the long list for FY 22 but that's what we could be recommended for 22 with these qualifications so does anyone so I'm making that as as the list yeah Sean so I would love a vote um but we didn't have a vote on the agenda so I don't know if that matters you know we didn't at the at the next meeting we specifically have a vote on the agenda but tonight it was just discussion so I didn't know you know I'm voting with well can we do if we didn't say a vote on the agenda can we go around the room and just get a sense of is there general agreement for that because then we could begin a draft to know that we were there and then we could be looking at that draft so is that a way of doing it so it's an informal you can you can change my next week where we take a formal vote on it um so I don't know whether an informant Paul Paul is raising his hand on you know I've seen CPA do kind of straw both that isn't a binding vote on it but so so certainly you can do that you don't not have to have the only thing the agenda has to have is the topic that you're going to discuss you can take an action you can take a motion on it or not you don't need to have the motion on the agenda if you don't want so Paul is giving us permission to move ahead on this tonight rather than so um I could put that back in a formal motion or you could just say you know Kathy said you know we're taking it's the my motion is the FY 22 that was proposed to us with two areas um that we want to look at one is should sustainability go up more and we're questioning the North Amherst intersection not because we don't think it should be done but are we really ready to spend that money um to then secure a grant in the following year do we think we're we're that ready and I would add just is that amount of money the right amount of money to be asking for it so that's my my um motion of the package we're voting on um Peter is that uh uh more discussion um your hand is on the question of should we vote tonight or not um my I guess my preference is not to because so Paul is Paul's correct that that you don't that you don't need I'm not disagreeing with Paul Paul's correct that you that open being a lot you don't you don't need to have there's no OML requirement it has to say vote it's more it's more well in my experience on committees it's more convention to to broadcast and publicize to the public what what is about to happen right so like we often have you know X parentheses discussion one meeting and then X parentheses possible vote the next so it's just a way to to um signal to the public what the action is I don't think there's anything really wrong with it but if the only purpose is to get a straw poll consensus and then and we can move forward anyway I mean we might as well just but I mean I'm happy to be overall well I'm fine I'm basically fine I don't see any disagreement so I cannot no one is saying don't do this so we can what Sean and I can do we can write this up and feed this back to you that this is what we're going to be looking at when we come back together next week when we take a formal vote um and uh and and then can start the draft it it sounds like if if we can't have a decent full draft of the full report by next week we can write it with blanks then we may have to we we may have to meet the following week if people want to see a draft to get a report out so that we've done that hold so people comfortable with that because we didn't Mandy looked at the next four years and made a comment on CPA and that's something we can write in and I my I have a couple couple questions on the formatting of the report itself because Sean has grouped things a little different life than before and I do like it so it's a question of you know exactly what the tables and the staff will be preparing the tables we don't have to do that um so Andy this question is to what's up with the then if we made a decision on the citizen's request oh that that was the one I wanted to raise I would like to recommend that positively um and I thought what Mandy had raised as could it be focused on the parking lots that are not the regional school parking lots and have the regional budget which is talking about a solar study focus on the regional and I thought that was a reasonable way of doing it so Andy you're asking whether we're recommending positively and I guess the second is is it extra does it come out of the sustainability pot and yeah Sean and again my question is do we want to allocate money to something that we are pursuing it pursuing a grant for now again we're Stephanie is you know working on a grant that we've had some positive feedback on that would provide the resources to do this type of study so so potentially if we increase the sustainability line item you know it could come out of there if we don't get the grant I guess the question is do we want to or do you want to recommend increasing some of one of the items and acknowledge that we're pursuing a grant and if we get the grant then we would not spend that money if people were comfortable we could write it that way that we're increasing the sustainability budget we look favorably on this proposal um and are not earmarking it right now because we think there's a grant but possibility but we're encouraging it that money be spent for this if the grant doesn't come through would be a way of writing that up does that work I'm seeing people nodding yeah thumbs up okay well thank you everyone um so I Alex yes whoops it muted damn it I wanted to go a meeting without doing that um on the recommendation to increase the sustainability are we recommending them I mean like as it is we're $15,000 off the like what is that again what does that mean like if we are recommending an increase to the sustainability budget are we basically giving a direction of like hey Paul and Sean go back figure out that 15 grand and while you're at it we think you should bump the budget do it as you see fit and the amount you see it fit from where you see fit like what are what are we suggesting done so again I think there's going to be sort of a a couple steps we're going to take to look to how to close that gap one as I mentioned we'll look at the copiers we'll look at the computers um and then the the last place or maybe the first place we'll also look is what Sonya mentioned earlier about some of the old articles that could be closed out and and put to close this gap for this year so if you come back to us next week with that information then we can be what Alex is asking we can be more specific because if you find us another $50,000 then we can say a hundred you know because because of these is that a way we can go so we don't have to be vague yeah no I can definitely get um I should be able to get specifics on all those yeah that sounds like a good plan to me okay well we've it's quite a um it's a been a very good discussion I think and I will send I will share with Sean my notes but then I will do a feedback I think Andy used to do that with jcpc that this was the discussion tonight this is what we heard and then you'll have it in notes coming back before you come next week in addition to the minutes um and um then maybe a beginning a draft of a report so I I'm in charge of doing a beginning draft so we'll see how far I can get and Alex has kindly offered last year to be the second reader and I promise you it's going to be closer this time because it's clear to me what to write so so I think we can say we're adjourned unless oh I need to look public comments to see if we have uh we have no attendees we probably outlasted them I forgot to look earlier um so then seeing no public I think we have no public comments and there is no late breaking news so we are adjourned for this evening and see you next week good night all right thank you