 hearing on proposal three, which is a proposal to amend the state's constitution to include the right to collectively bargain. This is based on that the house is required under house rules to have a public hearing on a constitutional amendment under rule 51A. We're gonna start tonight with committee introductions and then I'll give a description of what this, how we're gonna work this meeting tonight. A lot of the text that I have in front of me is geared towards more of a primary of a hybrid notice move, but we have so many people here tonight. You can just take in what we're saying and apply it to here. But there's gonna be some protocols about being online as well. So we'll start right here with introductions. I'm Representative Robin Chestnut-Tangerman from the Rutland-Bennington District. I'm Representative Dennis Levowney and I'm from Caledonia III District. And I'm Representative Larry Lieber and I'm from Essex Orleans District One. Representative Saudia Lamont, Lamoille Washington District. I'm Representative Elizabeth Burroughs and I represent Windsor One, which is Heartland, West Windsor and Windsor. Kathleen James and I represent Bennington Four District. Representative Mary Howard and I represent Rutland City District Six. Representative Emily Krasno and I represent Chittenden Nine, South Burlington. Representative Caleb Elder, Addison Four District. Representative Ashley Bartley and I am in Franklin One, which is Fairfax and Georgia. And Representative Tom Stevens from Waterbury representing the Washington Chittenden District and the Chair of the General and Housing Committee who is hosting this meeting this evening. This hearing will be live streamed on our committee's YouTube channel and those joining remotely will notice that you can see and hear everything in the room, but you're going to be unable to control your video and audio for now. You should all be able to see the list of speakers for today in your chat box in the Zoom. I'll call out the names, whether I'll just be calling out the names throughout the evening of the people who are up next and the person on deck. When I call your name or committee assistant, if you're online, we'll promote you for being an attendee to being a panelist. The screen may flicker when this happens and you may need to turn your video on and your audio as well. And once you're oriented and begin to speak, the timer will start and that applies for those of you who are live. We'll give you the time to settle into your chair and after you introduce yourself, that's when the timer will start. We're assigning three minutes to speak your thoughts this evening, the timer will turn yellow when you have 30 seconds remaining. When the time is up, the timer will turn red and we ask that you finish any sentences or thoughts at that time to make space for the next person in line. Once complete, we'll move you back for the folks online. We'll move you back to the attendee area where you may continue watching the hearing. Abuse of the time limit will result in removal from the meeting. So please speak clearly and respectfully. Any appropriate banners online, background images, vulgar or inappropriate language will be caused for immediate dismissal from this hearing. And if you have any technical trouble, please use the chat function in Zoom to communicate with our support staff. Do not use the chat to promote your position on speaking points, it's strictly for logistical help with our staff. We hope that this public hearing serves as a useful platform for citizens to voice their opinions to us in a respectful, effective way. And with that, let's get started. I want to start by... These are the people you just joined. Okay. Okay. And the first thing I really want to do is to actually read the proposal. It's not that long. Mr. Chair, if anyone wants, there are copies here as well. Okay, and to explain this process, which I'll actually start with, a constitutional amendment starts in the Senate. It can only happen every four years. There's a cycle. And a proposal for amendment like this one has to be approved in two bienniums. And so we're at the end of the first biennium, this proposal just came to us recently. And if we pass this through our committee and through the House, it will then go into storage, if you will. And then next biennium, it will be contemplated again by the Senate and the House. And if it passes that a second biennium, it will then go to the voters for a vote in the November election of 2026. That's how we got here today with this language, this pass to the Senate earlier this year. And it just simply reads that this proposal, section one, the purpose is this proposal would amend the constitution of the state of Vermont to provide that the citizens of the state have a right to collectively bargain. Section two, article 23 of chapter one of the Vermont Constitution is added to read, article 23, the right to collectively bargain. That employees have a right to organize or join a labor organization for the purpose of collectively bargaining with their employer through an exclusive representative of their choosing for the purpose of negotiating wages, hours, and working conditions and to protect their economic welfare and safety in the workplace. Therefore, no law shall be adopted that interferes with, negates, or diminishes the right of employees to collectively bargain with respect to wages, hours, and other terms and conditions of employment and workplace safety. Or that prohibits the application or execution of an agreement between an employer and a labor organization representing the employer's employees that requires membership in the labor organization as a condition of employment. Section three, effective date, the amendments at fourth in this proposal shall become a part of the constitution of the state of Vermont on the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November, 2026, when ratified and adopted by the people of this state in accordance with the provisions of 17 VSA chapter 32. That's it. We are here to listen. It's not a really a back and forth or Q and A. And I would just ask us to, again, participate respectfully. And with that, I would ask that Elizabeth Medina who is here to come forward to be the first witness on deck is Shahid Khattah, a self-advocate from Berrytown. Should I sit here? We put a little block there, so yes, you're welcome. Yes, all right, thank you. Well, I guess it's good to be first. Always a little nervous when the public speaking, believe it or not, but I'm really glad to be here to be part of this historic amendment. My name is Liz Medina. I am the executive director of the Vermont State Labor Council, AFL-CIO, which is a federation of labor unions here in Vermont. And we represent 20,000 AFL-CIO unions. And I have seen firsthand over my years how belonging to a union has materially and in many other ways benefited our members' lives, whether that's in terms of better wages and working conditions, protection from harassment and discrimination in the workplace, safety in the workplace is always a big issue, and also the sense of community that it builds in the workplace and beyond, which has an important role when we face disasters as a community together too, especially with the July Flazes this past year. We had union members come together in Berry to help the community and distribute food and actually had union members with their various skills help residents clean out their home and do repair repairs. So I really think it's important to support unions and enshrine their right to organize because they offer so much to workers, not only who are in unions, but workers everywhere and also community members at large as well. And I'll just say personally, I'm here as living proof of that difference. I got my first union job in 2015 at Goddard College as a staff member, and it was the first time where I really felt that I had a sense of job security and a voice on the job over my pain-working conditions. And because of this job, I was able to save for my first home here in Vermont and I'm now happy to announce that we're starting a family here in Vermont. So I came from out of state as a, you know, a youngish person and what kept me here is my union job. And that's one of the many reasons why I'm such a big proponent advocate in the position I'm in today as well. So I just want to thank you for taking on this tremendous task at a time when workers' rights are under attack across the country to make sure Vermont supports workers and the value of workplace democracy and being able to advocate for yourself. So thank you so much. And I'm sure you'll hear from others who will say the same. Thank you. Thank you. All right, next up we have Shadi Batah and then next will be John Stafford and then on the deck, Stafford, over one. Good evening everyone. My name is Shadi Batah and I'm a resident of Berrytown, English is my third language. So I have my notes. If you have any questions, please stop me and ask me to repeat myself. I come to you today as a former trainer for the CWA Local 1400 and as a former member of Hester Drute Labor Organization in Israel, Palestine. I wasn't until I became an employee of the legislative staff that I did not belong to a union. Anyone who works in the state of Vermont should have the right to organize or join a labor organization. We should have the right to be represented to negotiate wages, hours and working conditions and to protect ourselves in the workplace. Over the year, from my experience, legislature has enacted laws protecting employees throughout the public and private sectors. Almost every other public employee has just caused protection and due process rights in the event of termination. Most have the right to union representation. The administrative staff at the Supreme Court are union members. Legislative employees in Maine and elsewhere are represented by unions. Supervisors and responsible professionals throughout state government belong to unions and most managers are classified employees who have due process rights and can challenge adverse actions before the labor board. Yet, here at the Vermont General Assembly, the people working to make sure our legislators run do not have the same rights. And there is no way of asking for one since workers in this building or in this organization are not unionized. There are also no way of asking for changes in policies or the documentation that pertain working conditions here because once again, legislative staff are not able to unionize. These failures make any process of legislative employees go through less legitimate and make it more likely that someone somewhere along the way will make a mistake. We are all humans based on personal feelings or bias rather than a well thought out process that all both employers and employees agree to. It is time for the staff in this building and this organization to be treated as every other public employer as expected to be treated, giving them just cause some basic due process and the right to join union and bargain collectively. This proposal would be the first step on that journey. So I'm asking you all today to allow proposal three to pass, allow it to continue on the process of being put as a question towards the people of Vermont. Allow Vermonters to the chance to vote and establish workers' rights as part of our state constitution. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you, Sadie. Okay, next up I have John Stafford. Zachary overlays on his next and then Paul Ben Appledorn is on the Zoom on deck. I would just like to ask that the proposal three is passed. This protects us and I think it actually helps be better employees, better workers for the individual towns because of the respect that's shown by our management that we didn't really have before we had a union. Our rights are, we have resources that we can ask questions for, we perluse all that and they took our collective bargaining unit away. I think this union and our bargaining unit really needs to be protected because we are under attack and you never know, we don't want to lose this off our books, please. Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you. Next up I have Zachary Overla and I hope I didn't put you your name for the third time. And then Paul Ben Appledorn is next with Larry Moklin on deck. Welcome. Hello, my name is Zachary Overla. I'm here to advocate for Prop 3, a crucial measure that seeks to protect the right to organize for Vermonters even in the face of potential federal challenges. I'm before you today as a proud member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Local 2326. I'm currently employed by the American Red Cross and the Blood Services Division where my colleagues and I are fortunate to be organized through IBU Local 2326 where we have experience, the difference between being unionized and not unionized. Especially myself first hand because it is my first union job. And I definitely have noticed a difference with fair pay, better healthcare benefits as well as like a very much safer workplace and fairly more like cared about by our employer and heard. This amendment is not just about protecting the president but is about safeguarding the future for all Vermonters. It is about ensuring that workers have a voice that their concerns are heard and addressed and that their welfare is protected. Collective bargaining is a fundamental pillar of a fair and just society and Prop 3 seeks to strengthen this pillar. The text of Prop 3 is clear in its purpose and intent. It states that employees have the right to organize or join a labor organization for the purpose of collect free bargaining with their employer. This amendment protects workers' economic welfare and safety in the workplace ensuring that no law will interfere, negate or diminish their right to collect free bargain. Prop 3 aligns perfectly with the oath you took when you first assumed office, empowering workers and preventing any interference or diminishment of their collective bargaining rights. In closing, I urge each of you to support Prop 3 and uphold your commitment to the people of Vermont. Let us stand together in solidarity to protect the rights of Vermont workers and create a future where fairness, equality and justice prevail in our state. Thank you for your time and consideration. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Excuse me. All right, next up on Zoom, we have Paul. Ben Appledorn. And then after that, it'll be Larry Mokwin and Jean Goodwin is on deck. Paul, are you there? See that you're muted. Is that better? I can hear you now, yeah. Now we can see you. Okay. Thanks for giving me the opportunity today to speak in support of Proposition 3. I have a little story when I first came to Vermont about 11 years ago. I was working on my house which needed my new house which needed a lot of work and I realized I was gonna have to get a job soon. So I started looking on the carpenter by trade, carpenter builder and I started looking just on the local ads craigslist and whatnot and I saw the wages were quite low and I thought, oh, I wonder what the state is paying for a wage. So I looked that up and I was a bit dismayed and I actually worked for the state of Massachusetts almost 30 years ago. So I looked up what they were paying then. This is back in 2014, 15 and I saw that the wage had gone up $8 in near 30 years. I was kind of shocked. So I decided to incorporate the CPI index for every year since then, basically the standard of living cost. And when I came out in just pretty easy calculations that the value of what we earn now and this goes for teachers, nurses, tradespeople was 34% of what it was 30 years before that. So what we make is only almost a third of what it was. And during that time in the 80s with policies from the Reagan era and the downplaying, the unions, the voice of the worker was less and less to the point where we now are so undervalued as workers that just passing proposition is just the first step. I think for an individual to go up against a state government, a federal government, the corporation is just, it's absolutely impossible. We need a collective bargain in order to have a fair say and a fair hearing and that's why I supported it. Thanks for the time. Thank you. Thank you. Larry Mokwin and then Jean Goodwin is next and Nicole Bavida is online after that on deck. Good evening, Larry Mokwin. I am the vice president of Vermont building and construction trades. I'm also the field supervisor for Labor's local 6.6.8 which covers Vermont. We're here in support of proposal three. I'm not going to keep you too long. We know that unions set the standard for all workers and uplift all workers. So without unions, Vermont will end up a race to the bottom like many right to work states are. We hope that this will come out of committee unanimously as it did in the Senate because this isn't a union or non-union. This isn't just about workers in general and we set the standards. I thank you for taking this up and I also thank you for the swift action. Thank you. All right, Jean Goodwin. And next will be Nicole Bavida and then on deck is Alex Popin. Jean, welcome. Thank you. Hello, Jean Goodwin. I am a member of Coppenter's local 327. I am a 42 year member. I started in 1982 as an apprentice. Was given the opportunity to be trained very well by the Coppenter's Union through an apprenticeship program. I worked, I retired in 2016 with a 30 year pension. Proud to say the first woman in my local to receive a 30 year pension. I've owned property in Vermont in Hubbardton since 2014 on beautiful Lake Ortonia. And because of the training and the safety and the career that I had, I was able to build a home on that lake and resident of Vermont. Sorry, very proud of what the Coppenter's Union did for me and the fact that we have people that handle this collective bargaining and afforded us a pension and an annuity and a fair living wage and the safety to go to work every day and not be harassed and to earn a living and a future. And basically there's no downside to this. It's for the future of sons, daughters, granddaughters, grandsons going forward. I think it's just a good thing to have on your books and thank you for your time. Thank you, Jim. I'm taking a tablecloth. Okay, next up we have Nicole DeVita, who should be here online. Nicole, did I put you your name properly or did I get you right? You got me right, thank you. Okay, welcome. Thank you. My name is Nicole DeVita. I am the co-president for healthcare of AFT Vermont. AFT Vermont represents workers in both healthcare and higher education. Within the past six years, AFT Vermont has doubled in size from approximately 5,000 members to 10,000. We at AFT Vermont are in support of proposal three. Labor unions are the foundation of the working class. Unions give workers the ability to level the power structure between themselves and their employer. The Wagner Act of 1935 was a landmark law that boosted workers' rights and unions in the US. 12 years later, after an unprecedented number of strikes in 1947, the Taft-Harley Act was passed to reduce the power of the working class. It enabled states to become right to work states or pro-business states. Studies have shown that in these right to work states, wages are approximately 7.5% less and unionization falls by approximately 13%. In Vermont, it was not until 1969 that the first group of public sector employees won the right to organize for improved working conditions, wages, and other benefits. Following this in 1972, the first private sector hospital workers won the right to organize and form a union. I spent the first 10 years of my career in New York employed at a private healthcare facility. When I came to Vermont, I knew fairly little about unions. The notion that I had to say my work into conditions was foreign to me. It took a bit of time to realize that I was within my rights to voice concerns over work conditions, which are often directly related to patient care in the healthcare field. Who shouldn't have a say when you spend the majority of your time at your workplace? After being a part of a union, I would never consider entering into employment that did not have a union. I value not only my voice, but those of my coworkers in ensuring that we have a say in our work life. We support Prop. 3 and believe that this proposed amendment is necessary to ensure that Vermonters can come together and negotiate for fair working conditions. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Next up, I have Alex Potvin, and then Kim Hockinson, and then on deck, John Bonneville. Alex, welcome. Hi, good evening, members of the committee. First off, I need to thank the members of the Senate for their unanimous support of this constitutional amendment. My name is Alex Potvin. I'm here on behalf of Local 693, the plumbers and pipe fitters here in Vermont. A little background on myself. I started in, I was born in Burlington in 1985, and I've lived in the islands since then. In 2006, I started an apprenticeship with a private union company, Cooper Mechanical. Since then, I progressed as a rank and file member. I was elected as an officer of my local union and then went to a full-time employee of the union as an organizer and recruiter. I tell you this not to give you a history lesson about myself, but to drive home the fact that union membership has a positive and generational impact on the very people of this state and around our country. As a lifelong Vermonter and 20-year union member, I cannot stress enough the benefits of union membership. They've not only paved the way for me to raise a family and have a fulfilling career in the mechanical field, but also allowed me to remain as a resident of this great state. Without the protections and backing of my union, as well as support from fellow brothers and sisters, this may very well have not been the case. My story here is not unique to me. You will find this to be the case across the board when it comes to union membership. In 2009, support of unions was at its all-time low in this country since the peak of its popularity in the 1950s. We've seen a rapid increase in support of unionism and collectively bargain working agreements with over a 20 percent increase in support among the American population since 2009. While the support from the working class has grown, we've also seen an attack on the rights that collectively bargain from corporations and lawmakers at a level that's been unprecedented since the initial labor movement that gave birth to the power that the working class held in this country. These lawmakers who are beholden to these large corporations seek to undermine the ability to collectively bargain and, in turn, strip the working class people in this country of their rights and freedoms, freedoms that this country was founded on. The reason for these attacks is not unfounded and is really quite simple. In order for corporations to keep power, they need the working class divided. When the working class is unified through the power of a collective bargaining agreement, the balance of power is shifted to the people. This is the one proven way to uplift the working class as we have seen in this country on numerous occasions. Our small but mighty state has been a leader in many ways and I strongly urge this committee to help Vermont continue this tradition of being a leader of freedom and personal liberties and try in the right to collectively bargain in our state's constitution in order to ensure the prosperity of the working class people in the state. Thank you very much for your time. Appreciate it. Thank you. Next up is Kim Hockinson or Hockinson. Well, Hockinson, you got it right. The first thing that's great. Doesn't often happen. It gets a little nervous down there in my seat. So, and next up will be John Bonneville and on deck will be Frances Vasharow. Again, I hope I didn't put your name in this while. Kim, welcome. Excellent, thank you. Good afternoon or evening, wherever we are at this point. My name is Kim Hockinson. I'm the Northern New England Regional Manager for the North Atlantic State's Regional Council of Carpenters. Very long name. But I'm here to actually read our testimony from our Executive Secretary, Treasurer, but also give you just a little brief of myself. So I'm an 18 year member of the Carpenters Union, started as an apprentice, like anyone pretty much who was in a union was able to go through the apprenticeship, became a journey person, then became a four person and then became a road supervisor. So I've had that experience of going through the union and what it can offer for all the women in the room. It levels the playing field, which is awesome, right? So the training is there, the education is there, safety and all these things that everyone else has said, but it also levels the playing field that my pay is the same as the person sitting straight and all the way around. So to me in terms of personal, that it was a very big deal in terms of the union. Now on to the reading of the thing. So let's see how I do here. On behalf of more than 30,000 members of the North Atlantic States Regional Council of Carpenters, I'm writing and reading to request that your support of PR3, a constitutional amendment to guarantee Vermont workers rights to collectively bargain. Since the founding of our nation, the people of Vermont have led efforts to establish and preserve our nation's fundamental freedoms, advancing equality and protecting the rights of all working people. We encourage you to continue this tradition of leadership by becoming the second state in the nation to pass this important legislation that would enshrine workers' rights into the state's constitution. While all workers in Vermont are currently have the right to organize, these rights are under attack in the Washington and the state capitals across the nation by well-funded corporate special interests. In addition, for the last decade, the Supreme Court has been increasingly hostile to organized workers by established right to work for all public sector employees, Janice versus AFSCME in 2018, undermined the right to organize by restricting the rights to access employees on their work sites, Cedar Point versus Hassad in 2021, and are poised to potentially undermine unions' right to strike, Glacier Northwest versus International Brotherhood of Teamsters in 2023. In our neighboring states, my current home state of New Hampshire, well-funded corporate special interest groups have pushed so-called right to work for the last 30 plus years. I am happy to report that we finally defeated it again this year and it won't be coming to New Hampshire this year, but that is the whole point of this, is so that you don't have to do that for 30 years every two years and waste your time as well as all the public time. While public support of unions is at six-year high, union membership has declined dramatically over the last 40 years in Vermont and around the country because of these relentless attacks. We see the impacts of this decline in Vermont, especially in our construction sector, that has seen a degradation of wages and working conditions as unionized rates have fallen according to the recent study of the Century Foundation. Vermont has the highest rates of construction, worker misclassification in the nation. This means that thousands of workers are not paid their fair wages. They do not have access to employer health care or benefits, the pension benefits, as well as not being a part of the state workers compensation system. This hurts all Vermont citizens because it drives down wages, increases poverty, and over burdens the state's safety net programs. Stronger unions are the key to addressing this problem and now is a critical and important time to protect these rights, to organize and to help unions grow in Vermont. We believe it's time to codify and put the labor union rights and workers rights in bypassing PR3. I'll leave it at that because I'm all over. Thank you very much. And I will pass out the testimony if that's all right. You can pass it out. Certainly, yep. Yeah, just so you have it, I apologize for. Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you, Kim. Thank you. Thanks. All right, John Bonner. And then on Deccas, Francis Vastro, and I'm sorry, next is Francis Vastro and on Deccas, Charles Russell. Okay. Um, is Francis here? And Charles, and after Charles, we have our last witness scheduled for tonight is Walter Smith. Okay, my name's Charles Russell, R-O-S-S-E-L-L. I live in Cabot, Vermont. I've been a member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters, Vermont local 349 since 1997. Once upon a time in Vermont, Union's construction unions were strong. If this is one of the older buildings on this block, it was probably built union. Now, when maintenance is done on it by a non-union company, chances are, my taxes are paying the doctor dinosaur for those workers' kids. I don't begrudge them that. The point is that the union workers are less of a burden to the taxpayers. Currently, there's not much organized anti-union proposals for legislation in Vermont because unions are not that strong here, but we're gonna be, because right now we don't have a lot of market share, you don't get that. We do talk a good game about livable wages here in Vermont, but if I cross any of our borders, be it to Montreal, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, or New York and work union, I make significantly more money. And that is why in New Hampshire, every legislative session, it's brought up these right to work for less laws. It wastes a lot of legislators' time and a lot of our time going to fight that. And that's what one of the things that this would do is prevent that from happening in the future when we're stronger, and you will certainly get those propositions to pass a right to work for less law. Thanks for hearing me out. Thank you. Thank you, Charles. And is Walter Smith here? No. All right, are there any other folks who are here who have signed up who might want an opportunity? Walter Smith. What's that? So we're kind of at the end of our list of people who have signed up. There's anyone here. I don't see anybody jumping up. I would then say that we're done for this public hearing. I would appreciate everybody who's testified, who signed up to testify and shared their thoughts on Prop. Proposal 3. Does anybody, any of our guests or witnesses have a question for us about the process or about what it's going to be like moving forward? So I would say stay tuned. Then again, we will consider this for passage and through our committee. And then once it comes through our committee, another wrinkle is that rather than one day on notice, we have it on notice for four days. And then it would come up for second reading, what's called second reading. And then that would be the floor, the discussion on the floor. And if it passes that, then again, it goes into, it summers over into the next biennium and then it'll be taken up in the next biennium in the same process. Do you know why it sits for four days on the notice calendar? I can't say anything better than that's the rule. I think it just generally fits with the notion in Vermont that changing the constitution should be difficult and should be different. And so it gives people an opportunity to see that it's, if people are seeing that it's posted on notice, they have an opportunity to weigh in much more than we have for a conventional bill. All right, with that, then I would suggest that this public hearing is over. Thank you so much for your time and for coming out tonight.