 Good evening and welcome to Tiskey sour. It's Friday night Which means very little in this day and age except for me that I get to spend the evening with Dahlia Gabrielle Dahlia How are you doing? Hi Michael, I'm doing all right. My boiler's packed in so I'm rediscovering the joys of the bucket bath, but we move Interesting Is it I was gonna say is it scabby to get it fixed if you walkers as if there's a British gas strike on We need to talk about that on that one. Yeah I managed to find a plumber who's not British gas, so I'm not Christ crossing the picket line But I would identify I would I definitely wouldn't even if that was the only option I can do a bucket bath for a few more weeks if it means People get paid if it means the end of the end of hire and fire practices. Yeah fire and rehire practices Sorry, we have some massive stories for you tonight, and we have two huge stories where we have one of the main protagonists Involved on the show later in the show and we're going to be talking about the really quite bizarre going on In the Labour Party at the moment we're going to be talking to Howard Beckett who's assistant general secretary of Unite and one of the leading voices on the left on the National Executive Committee of the party so we'll be talking about the Controversies that are going on and how the left can Respond what power do the left still have in the Labour Party under Keir Starmer the second big story Well, we have the main protagonist is about the Guardian Britain's leading liberal newspaper or supposedly I suppose there isn't much Competition and they have let go a columnist because of what I thought was quite an entertaining tweet about Israel With myself and Darlia we're going to be talking about two other big stories tonight one of them Coronavirus and the debate going on among scientists and politicians about the speed that we're going to unravel the current lockdown and also a Very irresponsible interview that Julia Hartley Brewer did and her pride in not doing research before going live on air Never would I do such a thing? You know the score We want you to share the show link so we get more people watching live tweets on the hashtag Tiskey So put your comments under the YouTube video under the twitch stream and is there something else that we ask you to do? Super chats, I suppose I can't remember write it on a bit of paper post it to our office You can find it the address on our website right The Guardian is supposed to be Britain's most liberal newspaper and in the recent past it has broken some stories Which are genuinely uncomfortable for those in power for example working with Julian Assange and Edward Snowden to reveal state secrets About Britain and the USA However, it's dissent into a lapdog of the establishment one way to put it has been clear over the past five years In which its attacks on Jeremy Corbyn became ever more hysterical The paper has now also sacked a columnist for a tweet critical of Israel now The journalist in question is Nathan Robinson Nathan is the editor of the left-wing magazine current affairs and has been writing a column for the Guardian US so the US version of the Guardian since 2018 this is his page on the website as you can see there Nathan Robinson Nathan Robinson is the editor of current affairs in a Guardian US columnist lots of articles about American politics however in late December when Congress was authorizing a new package of COVID relief money for Americans at the same time it also Signed off on five hundred million dollars more in military aid to Israel so at the same time as passing this COVID relief bill It also Guaranteed five hundred million dollars to Israel and that prompted this quip from Robinson So Nathan tweets did you know that the US Congress is not actually permitted to authorize any new spending? Unless a portion of it is directed towards buying weapons for Israel. It's the law I Read that I thought that's clearly a joke and he goes on to clarify or if not actually the written law Then so ingrained in political custom as to functionally be indistinguishable from the law As I say I thought there was a reason you can see the joke that's being made there now after this tweet John Mulholland who is editor-in-chief of the Guardian US and Robinson an email with the heading private and confidential Now luckily because of an article Nathan has written in current affairs his email is no longer private and confidential Mulholland writes of the tweet no such law exists in which case this is as one might say fake news Given the reckless talk over the last year and beyond of how mythical Jewish groups alliances yield power over all forms of US Public life. I am not sure how this is helpful to public discourse And I am not sure why singling out financial aid to Israel in a tweet and devoid of any context and without mention of aid To other countries either currently or historically is useful for public discourse Now the email concludes and I think actually this is a quote which John Mulholland is Is including I can ask Nathan in a moment with saying that the only Jewish state controls the most powerful country in the world Is clearly anti-semitic the myth of Jewish power informs murderous hatred delete this and apologize Now in response to that email Nathan Robinson, you know, didn't say f you I'll tweet whatever I want. No Nathan messages John I have no wish to contribute to the mountain of fake news on the internet and realize It is my responsibility as someone who writes for you not to say things that could confuse people I have deleted the tweet and clarified. I am sorry to cause you trouble Occasionally dash off a tweet without consideration of potential to create misunderstanding. Thank you for letting me know And John Mulholland replies You know an hour later saying Nathan, thank you for that swift reply and action I greatly appreciate your thoughtful response now most people would have thought that's probably The end of the story case closed. However after this incident Nathan's pictures went unanswered and then this Tuesday He was fired Nathan is no longer a guardian columnist But he is still the editor of current affairs and he joins me now Thank you so much for for coming on the show at this pivotal moment in your career Nathan. Yeah. Hello, Michael Nice nice to be with you. Thanks so much for having me A real real pleasure. I want to start with, you know, a basic question I suppose which is, you know, how how confident are you that the reason they've let you go is because of this tweet And it's not just they told me flat out. It's not just a coincidence. No, they told me I I so I work with an editor who is not John Mulholland I've only interacted with John Mulholland once but my editor called me this week Because my editor had not been replying to my my new columns. I'm seeing you know, I'm submitting ideas for columns I've said, you know, usually my editor calls me and goes I'd like you to write about this But you know radio science I finally get in touch with my editor and they say explicitly I would have been commissioning you for the past month But this thing with John makes it kind of awkward. I need to work it out with John I need to sit down and have a meeting with him and I said, well, could you could you do that? Please because I rather depend on this income So it would be nice if we could get this all straightened out And then my editor called me the next day to say that they had had a meeting with mr. Mulholland And that he had decided to discontinue the column And that it I mean it was very clearly because he was still upset over the tweet So, I mean, there's no doubt and a fit the guardian Was asked about it They've put out a public statement and the public statement does not deny that they let me go Over just this tweet. They didn't allege anything else that they I had done And their only defense of what they did is to say that I wasn't really fired because their columnists Don't have any guarantee. They don't have job security. Essentially There's no contracts for the columnists, right? They can fire you whenever they want Yeah, I saw that statement because you know On reading that first statement it almost reads as if oh this guy Nathan He's delusional He never really worked for us in the first place just a couple of freelance articles But then you you look up your name on the website and it says you are a columnist at the newspaper So it's it's very clear This is crazy because you notice in his email He says as you present yourself as a guardian columnist and I thought I was really that I was going But I am a guardian column. I was originally a contributor I contributed for a while and then my editor gave me a promotion to full columnist, right? Which comes with uh, they more than double your your pay per article And they put you on as a columnist and and it means that you get to write regularly for them like any newspaper columnist It was this very bizarre kind of like you're not really a columnist at all. So we're not really firing you Very bizarre I want to bring up The substance of the tweet So in that I do recommend our audience go and read your article in current affairs because it has this great graphic Because the editor-in-chief has accused you of singling out Israel. He's saying this is the only Jewish state Why are you singling out Israel in your explanation of all of these events? You sort of evidence Again, it was a jokey tweet, but you evidence the basis for it with this graphic Countries scaled to the foreign military aid they receive from the u.s So you can see there israel far and away more than any other country With 3.1 billion pounds. So you look at that graph. You don't say why would you possibly single out israel? Looking at that graph or because it's the biggest it gets the most money Um, and it has for quite a while He also said why didn't you put in context that there have been other states in the past? Which have got lots of military aid. So I don't know if under the joke you were supposed to say Oh, by the way, also the marshal plan meant the u.s had a lot of money abroad in the 40s Do you think there's anything that he said that was remotely reasonable there? Is there a point where you're like, oh, maybe that tweet wasn't So israel is the largest cumulative recipient of military aid It's been surpassed on a year by year basis since in fact since that's graphic by afghanistan I think with security aid, but um, it's received more in in military dollars than any other country, right? And I am not the one who originally singled out israel for a special relationship with the united states United states policy has singled out israel and in fact if you look at the statements of united states politicians I mean it is official u.s policy that we are supposed to help israel maintain what is called its quote qualitative military edge Over all other powers in the region israel is is like saudi arabia. It's a close u.s ally and we prioritize them so You know, we discussed saudi arabia and current affairs too, right? Which is that states that the united states has to serve its own interests Decided to give disproportionate support to it just funnels money to Even as it's stiffing U.s voters with 600 dollar coveted relief checks The money keeps flowing to our military allies I mean again, that doesn't seem like i'm singling out israel u.s politicians from for decades and decades have said It's our job to make sure israel is the strongest power in the middle east And I suppose in terms of the wider significance this has on I suppose freedom of speech is one way to put it but also, you know Just journalistic integrity and freedom I I saw you spoke to bad faith podcast yesterday and they put out a really interesting clip which was you saying In a way, you're glad they've let you go that they fired you because if you were to remain at the guardian because you were To some degree financially reliant on them. You've also got your own magazine But to some degree, you know, you wanted to keep that job You would have held your tongue when it came to issues about israel palestine And now you feel like actually you've got you've got the freedom to continue speaking your mind So are you working on the assumption that everyone that works for the guardian now is a bit terrified to tweet about israel? Well, michael look at what an obsequious toadie I was in that email to john mullholland that I sent to him Uh, when he had when he had, you know swooped down Having never really interacted with me before and said, you know, you better get rid of this Instantly I went. Oh god. Oh god. Oh god because I you know, I needed my job It's gone now. So, you know but Uh, I was like, oh, well, you this is the editor chief of the guardian. You've got to keep him happy You better, you know, you better delete you better delete just delete the tweet, right? And I so I was going to self censor Right, I was going to I and I did in fact So he successfully got me to self censor because I knew that I had no job security whatsoever I knew that any moment john mullholland decided to stop printing my columns There was absolutely nothing I could do about it Um, and so if that's the situation with me and I have my own magazine I'm not a freelancer. So I am able actually to go somewhere else I'm not completely dependent on on this is about a quarter of what I make in a year Um, so it's a lot of money to lose but um, no journalist if you're a freelancer, um, You know, I could say what I want to career fairs, but if I wanted to get another newspaper column No other the guardian as you as you said earlier is the most progressive Of the major newspapers. So if you're toxic for anti-semitism at the guardian, you're out. You're gone So you can see how the employment relationship creates So much coercive pressure on people to be quiet on any issue that's going to irritate the employer And do you have a sense of where it came from in the guardian? I mean Does it seem like it was just this one person's individual decision Or have you got an idea of that there was a bit of a fight within the organization And some people were sticking up for you and some people were saying No, you've got to go and and one side one out What's your you know, what's the criminology of all of this is if we're looking at the top of the institution I know very little here is what I know is that my editor who I had a good relationship with, um Tried to convince John Mulholland not to to to let me go And did not succeed And I was also the only other piece of information that I have we have that quote in the email, which is this weird thing at the After his signature on the email where it's where it's the delete this and apologize thing where it looks like It's coming from someone else that he's posted Whether it's something he found on twitter or whether it's someone else at the guardian I mean, he's the u.s. Editor, but it's a british newspaper So I I believe he reports to the ultimately to someone in the in the british guardian. I don't quite know But one thing I did learn from my editor was that at least someone in the london office of the guardian had been extremely had been there had been calls from the british office to the u.s. office about this rogue u.s. columnist and that that really made sense to me because the uh Obviously the the anti semitism flap has been so bad in britain that I I wouldn't be surprised if Even though u.s. Is notorious for for stifling criticism of of israel if someone in britain had said, you know You've got an anti-semitic columnist you you need to let him go and john mulholland might not have even been really Maybe maybe he believes what he said to me. Maybe he didn't and he was just told like your columnist is anti-semitic He needs to go. Um, I I don't I I don't know all I know is someone in the british office was mad and my editor did try and save my job Hmm. I mean I I do get this I think there is something that's Particularly pernicious in in in britain right now And you often do see it when you when we look across the pond to sort of debates in the united states about The international holocaust remembrance association definition of anti semitism, which many people think silence is Criticism of israel, which I mean we do I argued against it That's really difficult to discuss in this country But once you get to the united states it seems that actually you've got a bit more of a grown-up Conversation going on so it doesn't surprise me that this this clampdown has come from the guardian Nathan I want to bring up one tweet from you that your critics have been circling This week. I know you've already responded you responded to this before I'm not exactly catching you out So this is a tweet from last summer There is no cancel culture the fastest way to get a book deal in this country is to whine about cancel culture Every single one of these people ends up on their feet. They are fine. They have giant platforms They are heard loud and clear right wing opinions are everywhere now This you know when you were talking about this you were talking about right wing people getting cancelled Um or not get I mean you were saying cancel culture doesn't exist Right wing people losing their platforms now you've lost your platform for tweeting something that has offended someone High up in a in a literary establishment or a news organization. Have you changed your mind about cancel culture? But I wasn't I wasn't the victim of cancel culture Right because cancel culture is supposed to be when there's when a big mob comes from for you When the big social justice wokeness mob comes for you and they they try and publicly shame you and then your employer You know who who likes you capitulates to the big mob? My situation was plain old manufacturing consent Right, it was the public didn't call for my firing the guardian didn't want anyone to know they were firing me The email was private and confidential He was trying to squeeze me out without anybody noticing There was nothing about the culture in fact the culture now that I have exposed it has been very much on my side so the the reason that I object a lot to the the kind of formulation of cancel culture is that it it it It removes power from the picture entirely and it almost suggests that power operates the opposite way than it really does Like power is democratic, right? It's it's the mob. It's the left. It's the masses Um, and I don't tend to think that that is how power works. It's not when I'm saying cancel culture doesn't exist I'm not saying censorship doesn't exist I'm not saying repression doesn't exist. Of course those things exist And and the way that they usually occur is as I say not when right wing opinions are victimized by anti racists Right. It's the it's the bds activists. Um, it's people who irritate corporations It's people who irritate powerful governments. Um, and so you can use the term cancel culture if you like to describe How censorship works, but I think what it does is it suggests that there's just this giant persecution of both right and left opinions Maybe maybe left opinions, but mostly right wing opinions mostly like, you know, you can't say the n word anymore or whatever Um, and I I don't think that's how power works, right? I think power is perfectly satisfied to amplify right-wing opinions very wise who complains about this all the time She didn't get fired from the new york times I got fired from the guardian for uh, criticizing u.s policy to israel She resigned in protest from the new york times, but they were gonna they keep publishing her garbage for years You know, uh, they you know david brooks publishes every week whining about cancel culture So, you know, where is it as I say, you know, these people end up fine and it's people who criticize powerful governments, uh, that end up not fine And and finally, how do you think this is going to affect your career? I mean in that tweet it is interesting You know the way you say for many of these right wingers when they get canceled That's actually a launch pad to bigger things at the same time I mean there is a lot of reputational risk involved in being let go because of a tweet which someone thought was anti-semitic I mean, what how do you think this is going to change your career? Or do you think it's not going to change it very much at all? I'm very lucky because I have this magazine current affairs and we're an independent with we're like you We're an independent left-wing outlet that can that can survive on our own And the fact that I've helped build that over the course of the past few years Gives me some Level of security and comfort where I can now continue to I'll just write for current affairs and I'll just Uh, and I'll have I'll have much more freedom and nobody will be looking over my tweets Which is great, but I only have that because over the past years many of of many leftists We've been building these independent platforms that have that freedom I think my career as a columnist for mainstream newspaper is toast, right? Because as I say, they all think I'm an anti-semit now So that's I mean, maybe maybe that someone I don't know would just out of desire to be controversial would hire me But I doubt it. I think probably I'll just be writing for current affairs It would be so much worse for me if I was a freelancer as I say Um, and I'm also like I'm a white guy with ivy league degrees We always end up fine. Like, you know, if I was palestinian, right, you know, this would be end of my career Um, you know, and in fact, look, you know, you look at some what happened to someone like steve salata Uh at the university of illinois who uh criticized israel and twitter got his job offers revoked now He's driving a school bus and he has been for the past few years. He likes driving a school bus He's written about how satisfying his job driving a school bus is it's not that he doesn't consider And I don't think we should consider it then you're coming down. But the point is his academic career It completely ended by these by these tweets about israel Hmm, I'm gonna obviously segue this into asking people to support Navarra media because we need an independent media But first of all, I think we should say go to current affairs read that full article from from naif and robinson Um, what's the what's the website? How did I get to it current affairs dot org? So go on and read it. Please subscribe. We do need you We do depend on you the guardian the guardian has a billion dollar endowment, which they don't tell people about but we don't Wow Wow The fun of my huge foundation. I only found this out because my editor sort of confessed it to me once I was like, how do you guys survive and then and they said well We do have a like a billion dollar fund that from a dead rich guy And I was like but it says like reader supported at the top And it's like well partially partially 10% 10% well, I don't know the percent I should be clear. I don't know. Well, they do have a financial report You can actually go it's all public information. So We'll do we'll do an episode on that sometime Um, naif and robinson, thank you so much for joining us this evening. We really do appreciate it Keep on tweeting Cheers As I said, I was going to segue into why you should support independent media like like current affairs light navarra media It means that we don't have to be that careful with what we tweet I mean, obviously I don't want to you know Offend people on twitter for no reason whatsoever But I don't want to feel like I can't tweet this or that or we can't cover this or that on the show Because someone at the top Someone who has material power over us can say I don't like this that doesn't happen at navarra media Which is why we can you know, we can tell it how it is. So if you want to continue Helping to build an independent media, please do go to navarra media.com forward slash support and go check out current affairs dot org Um, we are going to go Straight on to a story about Covid although actually I'll go get a couple of comments first Teresa eastern with 15 quid. Thanks for the hard work the team puts into pulling all this together I tell everyone who will listen. They should subscribe and watch navarra. Teresa eastern. You're a legend Um, thank you so much for both the donation and for telling people to subscribe And lincoln chen with 80 swedish krona He's wishing a very happy chinese new year to whoever that is celebrating or not And also many thanks to everyone at navarra for the good work Happy new year to everyone who celebrates it. I was reminded because fireworks went off outside my house at midnight last night, which is You know interesting right In coronavirus news It was today announced the reproduction rate of coronavirus is between 0.7 and 0.9 This is the lowest it has been Since july the figure means that according to government estimates the epidemic should be shrinking between 2 and 5 percent every day Now on s statistics released today estimate that in the week up to the 6th of february I think we can get up graphic 11 now fox One in 80 people In england had coveted one in 75 in northern ireland one in 85 in wales and one in 150 in scotland The place with the highest prevalence in the uk is london with one in 60 So the good news is that cases are going down. The bad news is that they are still quite high There is a weak lag here. So that was the prevalence of the virus a week ago It's presumably slightly lower now given that the art rate is below one The biggest worry though at the moment is still hospitalizations In this picture, you can see that we still have a lot more people in hospital Now than there were at the very peak of the crisis. There are 25,621 people in hospital There were just over 20,000 at that peak. So we're in a pretty perilous situation still and the daily death toll is averaging 754 Now all of this means it was a bit odd today when there was not today this whole week when the big talking point has been Should you or should you not book your holiday? I mean, obviously the answer is just wait and see But on the 22nd of february boris johnson is due to announce more immediate Plans for exiting england's lockdown at least Perhaps to try and influence what gets announced britain's most high profile scientists have this week been getting their thoughts in early On what should happen next now john edmunds. We've shown you clips of him a bunch of times before on the show He is one of britain's leading epidemiologist and sits on stage now He spoke to robert pestin earlier this week and advised caution when asked about reopening schools from march the 8th That's the date most recently set as a target by boris johnson If we opened up schools, I think that the reproduction number would get close to one um And possibly exceed one if we opened them completely if we have secondary schools and primary schools both at the same time I suspect we'd be lucky to keep the reproduction number below one So your advice at this stage would be the prime minister phase the return And and see how it goes I think we have to do everything very gradually and see how it goes because um, we're just learning this with this new variant We don't know that much about its transmissibility. So we're going to have to feel our way a little bit Um, so I think that we have to do things gradually steadily evaluate and then look to the next phase if we can Now pestin also put to edmunds the idea that after we vaccinate the vulnerable we could just let the virus rip It would be very dangerous Vaccines don't offer 100 protection. Um at the moment, of course Most people have just had the single dose and so they're not fully protected They haven't reached their the maximum level of protection. Um, so I think easing up now would be really dangerous But but but if we got to that stage of as I say the top nine groups all having had say a first dose or maybe first and second dose um at that point how Dangerous as I say would it be at that point to allow Essentially a return to normal that would undoubtedly see the virus spreading among younger people Well, I still think you would get a they would then start to get a lot of cases in vaccine failures. So for vaccine is um 90 protected, let's say and that would be very good Um, and we vaccinate 90 of people and that would be very good. Uh, then Of the high-risk people, um, then that actually leaves if you take multiply 0.9 by 0.9 you get 0.81 So you've actually protected 81 of the population leaving almost 20 percent Who are not protected and so you would have still under those very optimistic scenario situation you would still have roughly 20 percent of the highest risk group unprotected and uh, so if you let it rip They would get infected very rapidly and soon be filling up your hospitals and unfortunately your marks So john Edmunds are advising quite a lot of caution Basically saying yes, probably we can start to open schools in march But we should do it very slowly if they all go back at the same time. I will definitely go above one That's what he's suggesting there as to that final point I thought that was very interesting saying, you know, even if you've got 90 protection From covid and you've vaccinated 90 of people if you then say well the vulnerable are fine So let's let the virus run wild through the rest of the population You still will end up with quite a few people who aren't fully protected who could end up in hospital Now, I mean one question you might have there and I still have it I have to to admit is is that some people are suggesting that maybe for hospitalizations the vaccines are close to 100 percent effective, but I mean clearly this is why we need to do things slowly so we can work it out as we go along and not have Another terrifying spike come in the future. So if we're going to loosen it loosen it slowly Edmunds there was I think quite Let's say pessimistic or very very cautious professor Neil Ferguson who is I suppose probably the the most high profile Epidemiological modeler in the country He advises the government as part of the new and emerging respiratory virus threats advisory group He used to be part of sage until he had to resign because of an encounter During the first lockdown with a lover He spoke to politico's west minster inside a podcast and was slightly more positive than Edmunds, so he told the host we're in a better place than I might have anticipated a month ago The lockdown has really driven down cases quite fast They're basically halving about every 17 days at the moment or so and that means in a month's time The prime minister's talked about potentially reopening schools We might have some bandwidth to do that at least primary schools And if we continue to see then a continued decline without large outbreaks Then perhaps starting to relax other aspects of society the following Month so he's saying we should be able to open some schools in march and start relaxing other things The following month, but he did also one caution He said we shouldn't loosen lockdowns too quickly and all at once As Boris Johnson has been inclined to do so we can get up another quote from him here I'm hopeful it will be the final lockdown so long as we are relatively cautious in coming out of this lockdown If we relax too quickly without seeing the effect of each stage of relaxation We may do what we've done before and relax too much see a surge in case numbers and still need to tighten up measures again There were also some good nuggets of information in there Neil Ferguson thinks 30 of the population have been infected And warned that a full return to normality would be possible only once we see the real world effectiveness of covid vaccine So again, we're talking a lot of unknowns here that we need to get to grips with before we Take any any decisions that could be risky So yeah two different tones from the scientists but saying quite similar things However, the real danger is Boris Johnson's lockdown skeptic backbenches aren't echoing the scientists They're doing quite the opposite. He has listened to them in the past. Will he do it again? I'll be asking to earlier that in a moment, but first of all, let's look at one of them. This is the main Lockdown skeptic on Tory backbenches. He's called mark Harper. He chairs the Tory covid recovery group And here he is this week speaking to julia heartley bruer I've set out what I think is a sensible approach, which is Reducing those restrictions in line with the rollout of the vaccine So I've made the argument that once you've done the the top four vulnerable groups, which we will Be done in the next few days You've got to allow two or three weeks for the vaccination effect to kick in So we've said you need to start relaxing restrictions from march the eighth And I've said my own view is and I think this is supported by many colleagues that once you vaccinated the top nine groups That's the groups that account for 99 percent of deaths 80 percent of hospitalizations and it's not just to be clear not just people over 50 It also includes everyone between 16 and 64 Who has a health condition that makes them vulnerable to covid so it includes them as well once you've vaccinated those groups I think the argument for tough legal restrictions continuing Simply that case isn't made. Surely after the age of my colleagues will agree with me I mean again, we don't need to cut covid cases in hospital by 80 percent for the NHS not to be overwhelmed They've managed to survive even at the peak in January They um, I mean there's there's no reason given the seasonality of this virus and with the rollout of the vaccine I think we'd ever get close to anything like that again Um, in which case I've probably got hostage to fortune by saying that But but certainly in terms of you know the vaccine and from what the efficacy we've seen so far in places like Israel And and and in the uk that that would be extraordinarily unlikely despite some of the more doomongery predictions from from some That computer modeling which previously by the way has always been proven to be way way way incorrect but but fundamentally Is there an excuse for any restriction on people's freedom at all including things like mask wearing or like Once the vast majority of people are protected from serious illness or death from this disease Well, no my view is once you've done those top nine groups I don't think there's any case for any legal restrictions Yeah, people might still have there might still be advice that people are asked to follow But the point is that will be advice and it'll be then entirely up to people Whether they follow it. I think the legal restrictions on people should end once those top nine groups have vaccinated So so many things one could say about that clip I mean the thing that really stands out for me is people in this incredibly privileged position saying all legal restrictions can go Once the most vulnerable people have been vaccinated Then it should be people's choice whether or not they put themselves in harm's way Or you know once all the most vulnerable people have been offered the vaccine He says on a separate podcast that if people don't take it up that's you know their own problem The problem there is that most people don't get to choose what risks they take So if after we have vaccinated the most vulnerable we say all legal restrictions go Then who's going to be asking their workers to come back and work in busy bars? Who's going to be asking their workers to come back and work in busy shops? It's going to be employers and workers are going to have to go there whether or not they want to take that risk And we know that You know, we know that long covet is a serious risk. We know that some people of different ages do have severe reactions Now this isn't to say let's lock down everything until a hundred percent of the population is vaccinated But it is to say if you remove all legal restrictions You are just leaving people so vulnerable to whatever their employer demands of them and it's it's dangerous I mean also, you know and to that obviously the reasons that john edmunds was saying that even if you vaccinate 90% of the most vulnerable That still leaves 10% of them un Protected um as to what julia heartly brewers said she said hospitals managed in january Now hospitals treated a hundred thousand covid patients in january nhs staff have ptsd Over 30,000 people died that month in a month Um and julia says it was fine have some respect have some respect. Please um darlie I want to go to you briefly is Boris johnson going to follow the science this time or again Will he be sidetracked by the nutcases in his party and you know who have loud voices throughout the murdoch press? Yeah, I mean we are in such a devastating situation when epidemiologists are having to elbow their way in to get the prime minister's attention in the middle of a pandemic and strategize on how to convince him to take their advice rather than that of julia heartly brewer That is absolutely devastating and I think that the responsibility Really does lie with him and what I worry about is that we're going to see the same tactic of uh over promising Of and again, we see this in this promising of back to normal But we've been told time and time again that back to normal is not going to be feasible in the foreseeable future What we need to be focusing on is a pathway to adjustment So a pathway of understanding how we're going to actually live with this virus without it having the devastating effect That it has already had and that involves having a functional test and trace system It involves fully knowing the real world impact of having a three month gap for the Pfizer vaccine Which we don't really know what the outcome of that is and we have to also remember that the majority of people who got the Pfizer vaccine Are people who work in health and social care and the over 80s. So they're very vulnerable and they're very exposed so this kind of Over promising and sort of dangling of the potential of you know, everything being of us going completely back to how things were in 2019 Is really that's what my main that is the sign that is really telling me that this is Going to go the same way as it has gone And instead what I really want to see is a commitment not to oh, we'd be able to go on holiday in summer And will we be back to normal by summer? But the rhetoric should really be how are we going to use the summer to establish the Infrastructures that will enable us to adjust to the new normal So that we're able to live with corona virus without having to constantly go back into these incredibly restrictive Incredibly exhausting lockdowns and so that responsibility really lies with boris johnson and that is boris johnson strategy And obviously it's not helped by people like julia harley brewer but Boris johnson is the prime minister and the fact that we're in this position with epidemiologists fighting with shock jocks to get you know their their ideas into the Into the public health strategy is a failure of the government No, so so many important points there and and I do really think you know because you know There's a danger some people say oh the left. You're just obsessive lockdowns. You want them all the time Now for me there are some really serious issues which urgently need to be addressed in this lockdown right now so at the moment Kids still aren't allowed to play with kids from other households outside Right, that's one of the safest things you can do, you know, you're outside This is an airborne disease Is very unlikely you're going to pass covid to each other kids need to socialize with each other But in a situation where that's still banned we're discussing whether or not we should be booking holidays in august And it's so warped and it is because the media are only interested in this sort of like yes No got your question about august. Can we go on holiday in august? This minister said yes this minister said no I mean the reason they can't say is because none of us know So why is there not at these press briefings? Well, they're not every day now, but whenever they Whenever they they deign to to speak to us from Downing Street. It should be the press saying This rule is this rule necessary? This support should this support be given but no it's always just the next when's it going to end? When are we going to be able to go on holiday? You know There's so much to deal with in the here and now that it just it seems odd to me anyway Um, let's go to our next story. I'm just going to go to one Tweet on the hashtag tisky sour When Hartley brewer talks about the seasonality of the virus does she mean the pandemic that has lasted during spring summer autumn? and winter It's a good point. I mean It is actually it does seem fairly seasonal this virus I mean it doesn't go away in the summer But obviously the reason we have these huge spikes in winter is because of cold weather people are indoors more So it will be of great benefit towards when spring arrives. She's right on that front But where it's ridiculous for her to say that is in the summer. She was saying there won't be a second spike in winter So she wasn't saying it was a you know in autumn when winter was around the corner She wasn't saying oh, it's a seasonal illness It's going to get really bad December which all the epidemiologists and the the NHS people were saying the teachers were saying Because they're like when it gets cold we have to close the windows She was saying oh no, we've basically got herd immunity now and winter's going to be fine Now we're in winter now. She wakes up to the fact. Oh, actually. Yeah, it does matter what season you're in so right If you are not already do subscribe to Navarra media. I'm not going to add to that. I'm just going to just just do it Just do it. I don't need to give you a reason Labour have had another difficult week now according to Survation, um, the party are down five points on the previous month at 33% in the polls at six point behind the conservatives That poll came out just this afternoon just a couple of hours before we went live However, um, it's on internal party matters that developments have been most Dramatic this week. We received the news that the the release of a report by the forward inquiry has been suspended Indefinitely now the forward inquiry most of our viewers will will know about this because you're all labour party geeks It was tasked with looking into the labour leaks and it had been due to report in july 2020 That date was then put off until early 2021 so right now But a letter suspending it indefinitely was sent by martin ford qc Who's in charge of the inquiry on fursday now in the letter to david evans Who's the party's general secretary? Ford explained the reason for the delay was that the information commissioners office a statutory body And so that's a state body is also looking into the leaks and for that reason he's decided well We can't we can't do our report then He explains in the letter We have considered whether any aspect of our report can be disclosed despite the existence of the ico's inquiries However, after careful consideration We consider there is a real risk that even partial disclosure of our report and findings could have the potential to prejudice The ico's work as soon as its inquiries are completed and resolved. We will provide a report Now it's unclear to me what they mean by prejudice because the ico is you know It's an independent organization if they're investigating how different things were leaked I don't think they're going to say oh, we've read this labor report now, which means that we can't be independent It's not like a jury, you know, you prejudice a jury if the jury have read some really Biased media reporting on that morning that sometimes messes up trials the information commissioners officer I don't think they can say we can't make a judgment because there's already been a labor report on this It doesn't make sense to me Given the allegations of racism against some of those named in the report though Lots of other people aren't convinced so this delay has sparked opposition from some of labor's black mp's now damien gale From the guardian reported on this today. So he tweets Breaking nine black labor mp's are writing to kia starmer to warn that the delay to the ford inquiry risks further doubling down on the impression That the party is not taking anti-black racism seriously Diane abatt dorm butler marshal de cordova florence Eshalomi kim johnson clive louis chi onwara k. Osamore and belrobero adi signed the statement significantly some of those are in The shadow cabinet He goes on it says the possibility of a racist culture in a hostile environment for black members within the party needs to Be addressed as a matter of urgency and the ford inquiry is an important tool for doing that And it goes on that the abuse contained within the leaked report and the issues It seeks to address are incredibly serious the fact that members who contributed to anti-black racism have been readmitted to the party is a cause of concern and this delay only adds to the Anxiety Now to speak about this development and we have a few more for you Don't don't worry if you thought we hadn't yet mentioned the particular beef in the labor party That's been annoying you the most over the last 24 hours. We're going to go through them all But howard beckett is joining us He is assistant general secretary at unite one of the most high profile Left members of the n.e.c. And we are absolutely delighted to have you on and also I should say sorry We made you wait a little bit because this show is there's just so much to talk about this evening No, Michael. It's good to see and i'm jealous of your haircut. Michael. I've got covered hair and yours I'm gonna have to get clippers like yours. It's quite easy to did it this morning. It doesn't take long I do recommend it I can recommend you a set of clippers after the show if you like I want to get your your thoughts on this You know this that the ford report being being put off for well indefinitely. I think what's your take on this? Well, my personal take is that it's completely inexcusable and really the letter that you've just read out from from michael ford to To david evans makes absolutely no sense whatsoever The ico being interested in allegations of sexism and racism is a new one on me as far as I understood the ico Their remit is considered with data breaches and data alone and everybody's listening understands that Ford was instructed to deal with three aspects relating to leaked report The first is the contents of that report the sexist and racist commentary Is it accurate? The second was how the report came into being and how did it come to be leaked? And the third is the culture that exists in south side and the relationship between south side and lotto Now in respect of number one sexism and racism and in respect of number three The relationship with south side to lotto and the culture within south side The ico has no interest in that whatsoever and it is a nonsense to say otherwise So for our audience south side, that's labor party hq where the staffers work lotto leader of the oppositions office where the politicians work And obviously they were at loggerheads in 2017 as you'll know if you watched our our coverage of those labor leaks I'm going to get sort of I want to know how the left are going to fight back But first of all I want to go through one more controversy that's happened in the last 24 hours, which was What sounds like an incredibly chaotic bizarre almost a gm so annual general meeting of the bristol west clp now bristol west is one of the country's biggest clps I visited a number of times very dynamic bunch of people And recently a lot of secretaries and chairs were suspended in that whole area I'm an especially in in bristol west because they allowed Debates about corbin's suspension to to go ahead or at least related to corbin's suspension And in their place sort of party bosses or regional party bosses have taken charge and they held a clp agm yesterday so to elect a new exec to replace the old one And even though the professionals have taken charge it didn't sound like it was particularly professional So there were 550 people attending. So it's a big deal. This is quite a big Example of democracy in action, although it wasn't very democratic. I'm going to read This is a report back from matt holland's head who is a member of bristol west clp I know the guy very trustworthy believe what is what is saying here and I've heard it from multiple sources as well So of the meeting he writes the meeting was broadcast and chaired by regional office despite a valid sitting committee able to do so Despite a fact that a valid committee able to do so was in place Candidates could not speak members could not speak Questions asked of the chair including points of order were visible only to the unelected chair The meeting took six hours a candidate for secretary was disqualified for arrears despite the rule book clearly stating they were eligible Final counted ballots were not distributed until five hours after the start of registration for the meetings That's the biggest one they signed in at half five They didn't get their ballots until five hours later for no apparent reason By that time more than a hundred of the three five hundred and forty three people in the meeting and eligible to vote Did not vote likely because they gave up on getting a ballot waiting five hours for a ballot is quite a while Some people also got two ballots. Some people got different ballots and some ballots had both candidates against a single tick box I understand that even where the ballot had two candidates that you could tick they they decided which one one Howard beckett I want to go to you for your thoughts on I mean it seems like the the labor party establishment aren't even pretending to To believe in democracy at the moment They are quite willing to go into a local party even if it's huge even if there are five hundred and fifty people taking part And just stomp all over Due process Yeah, they do want to stomp all over due process Do michael please bring me back to the issues that you were raising in respect of various MPs who were tweeting about racism and Sexism I've got plenty that I want to say and that not least in respect of how the NEC was actually conducted yesterday From an anti-racist point of view or rather from a potentially racist point of view But yes, it's a mess in bristol and what everybody should understand is that's the AGM taken over by the regional office in bristol The regional office has plenty of questions to answer in respect of their conduct in regard to suspending Of members suspension seems to be the go-to approach of the labor party right now I know due process people not even being told what rules they're alleged to have been Unbroken freedom of speech being curtailed and locked down and regional offices stepping in in order to To run AGMs stepping in giving new zoom details out then taking ownership of the membership data This isn't just in bristol, which is an absolute shock in horror show tonight and a disgrace anybody who is responsible For that balance with with tick with voting boxes with two names next to them 100 votes missed like people should be Dismissed for pure incompetency before you come to the motivation behind it But it's also in stratham in london. So obviously stratham in london where chucker was replaced by bell And didn't even pass a motion of solidarity in respect of jeremy corbin And they received notice from their regional office that their AGM was to be held by the region Not by the the clp itself all of their data stripped of them. This is just not democracy whatsoever You do not expect this in a labor party You do not expect this in a western country and the labor party frankly needs to get a grip of itself Because otherwise they will be inundated with legal cases Many of which will be supported by my union unite for freedom of speech and the curtailing of open democracy Let's talk about those those allegations of racism And then there were some really strong words in that in that letter, which I say it includes Signatories in the the shadow cabinet. So it's not just people who are opponents of of kia starma They say this decision about the fall inquiry risks further doubling down on the impression that the party is not taking anti-black racism Seriously now from what you've said already. It seems like that's something you you agree with And what were you talking about with the nc meeting yesterday was a specific sort of examples of this From the so the national executive committee meeting last and yesterday the party is walking Michael towards Towards a reputation that is one that will sully It's the idea that it is an anti-racist party It is walking towards that on a number of footings right now And the nc and I have written today to the general secretary of the labor party to reference this The nc has to be much more than simply words. It has to be deeds Now the issue that arose in yesterday's nc was in reference to sandwell Uh, which is is obviously a clp that we've had a number of difficulties with I would be sympathetic towards that But two members of the nc two black members of the nc two two bay members of the nc Had been assisting in respect of the difficulties in the sandwell And they were ruled ineligible for the panel as a consequence of it ruled ineligible obviously by a white chair unreferenced by another member of the nc panel who was also white referencing that they should be Ineligible no reason was given for it. No conflict of interest was talking about it I'm because i'm not totally on top of this ineligible for what so you've got black members of the nc you're ineligible A future selection panel around sandwell michael so a future Two nc members would would go forward sandwell obviously a very diverse community It's a responsibility the nc to reflect that whenever we put our members forward for for such panels Two white males were put forward as a consequence of that the left responded by putting jasmine jar Dara forward and she was voted down by the nc So what you effectively had is a situation for sandwell selections Were two bay members of the of the nc were ruled ineligible and one bay member of the nc was voted down in respect Of of panel status in exchange for two white males and the commentary Mainly came from white members of the nc and that is simply not good enough because the labor party has to act in respect of it And at the same time we were having a discussion around the community organizers Community organizers who have disgracefully been given notice by the labor party all of whom are unite members That their fixed-term contracts will come to an end at the end of may five of those 12 individuals are from the bayne community That's the proportionality that simply does not exist anywhere else Amongst labor staff and a proportionality would it we should be proud of and instead they are getting their contracts terminated And I personally have no doubt that the reason for that is a political reason because they were appointments under the previous leadership So we have south side or labor headquarters Flying in the face of the commentary that we make about employment rights rights from day one put jobs first terminating fixed-term contracts And five of the 12 are bay members and on top of that michael on top of that The most senior muslim member of staff in the labor party is presently suspended An individual who's never so much has had a face-to-face conversation with the general secretary and an individual who on three occasions Offers his services to keer starmer whenever keer starmer came to his region and it was rejected This is simply not good enough the labor party has to be responsible for an anti racist agenda And it has to be judged by its acts not its words I want to go to an interview with caroline harris whose keer starmer's parliamentary private secretary because as I said you're Howard is one of the you know the leading voices on the left in the party who's you know often quite oppositional to keer starmer It seems now starmas people are fighting back So caroline harris who is an mp and also yeah keer starmas aid in parliament Told the huffington post that starmas left-wing critics should bring it on This is her sort of a punchy response to the criticisms of keer starmer and in that interview We've got some quotes from her. So she said All this nonsense about so and so and so is going to challenge him for the leadership bring it on because it's nonsense They are just making themselves look silly talking on zoom That's all they're doing talking to each other on zoom come into the real world my loves And let's talk about the damage that's been done and the repair work that we're doing Now she goes on when I see these articles I've actually done it this morning when I see these articles which say so and so and so and so and so Is going to be challenging keer for leader and we need a left-wing candidate. That's the time I think god we're getting it right We must be doing it right because this is what it's all about. You've got to move on. Haven't you we had that project It failed abysmally and we're up in stock. Let's make no bones about it. I've got one more Quote from you which is on policy And I hope she doesn't say so and so and so and so anymore because it's very difficult to read when you're When you're live on youtube anyway on policy She goes on and we lost them because we were selling a vision that nobody wanted to buy Keer had to come in get rid of all that nonsense and start putting together a credible opposition And come forward with credible policy when we are in a strong place to deliver on it now I'm howard when I when I read that I was thinking who's she talking about I think you know a large part would be the sort of noises that richard bergans been making this week Someone else would probably be you so how do you respond to caroline harris saying bring it on and also come come into the real world Well It's extraordinary, isn't it? What caroline harris and others need to wake up to the fact that it is only the left of the of the party That has offered policies in the last 10 years It is only the left of the party that has answers that the wider public need to hear and it's the reason why in 2017 we touched the door of 10 dawning street But of course we didn't get into the door of 10 dawning street And part of the reason for that is that people in south side were working against us being in dawning street in 2017 That's a key aspect of the forward inquiry and what the forward report must report on It's the reason why I get so angry about it michael because unite Put forward over four million pounds to support the labor party in that election and we deserve the answers But moving forward to 2019 nobody should be in any doubt that that election was premised on one issue in one issue Only it was get brexit done It was the brexit election according to sky news So caroline needs to wake up to the reality that this is about policy If kia starmer wants to be successful as the leader of the labor party then he will embrace left policies But every step that we have seen since his leadership is one that has moved further and further towards the right of the party And the present position that we're in with the divisions and the conflicts are not of the making of the left It's not at the making of the trade unions It's not at the making of those who would call themselves carbon easters These are divisions that are of the making of kia starmer and the people who surround kia starmer And perhaps caroline has given the game away in respect of our correspondence with huffington post given the game away That actually this is what the agenda of the right wing was about to cause conflict with the left To ostracize the left to make the left feel that the labor party is no longer their place of home Well, here's a message for caroline Mimicking the tories becoming tory light pushing yourself out there as a patriot And abandoning left-wing policies and failing to talk for the communities who need a labor party Isn't helping you at the moment The pools are going down because you're making the same mistakes that the right wing of the labor party has always made And that is that you go around in silence with deaf ears Failing to listen to the communities that we must offer the policies that they can believe will change their lives caroline your west minster heavy get out there and listen to what people need And listen to what is needed from the trade unions to make the labor party successful and change your narrative So in terms of your vision of what the labor party should be doing howard I think your your vision aligns with with navarra medias quite a lot So i'm not going to pretend to challenge you on that what i do want to know and where i suppose i have more doubts Is what can the left do about this? I mean it does feel a bit like The left doesn't have that much institutional power to challenge what's going on the right have a majority on the nc There aren't that many left wing mps in the plp and then a personal question You know one of the i suppose one of the the institutions that the left does have Thankfully one of the one of the legacies of corbinism although it actually proceeded that I suppose is unite has left leadership And some people are worried that there's going to be more than one candidate going forward for The general secretary of unite. Can you reassure us that there's not going to be a split vote? Which means that the the right get in Well, let's now come on to the united leadership in a second I won't dock that that question obviously michael But what can we do as a society listen to the trade union movement was founded on the principle of the trade unions It was the trade unions that put the labor party together and they put the labor party together Because the debate was had that we needed a voice within the political arenas as well as industrial strength And that has not gone away It is the trade unions who will remain the bedrock of the labor party and people come and go leaders come and go They're custodians for a movement a movement that goes in the direction of workers rights And that is not going to be lost and what can we do? Well as a movement as soon as we are through covid we must really engage with community organizing the idea That labor is finishing the contracts of community organizing some of us believe that that is the bedrock of socialism That you must be organizing in the communities listening to those communities in order for you to be an effective socialist party And we need a socialist party in mainstream politics So what will happen here is that the left will get active the left will get into the communities The left will show the ideas for change the left will be the voice for working people And people such as carlang will find themselves marginalized and that will either be marginalized In a labor movement or it will be alternate to be marginalized within west minster Because the wake-up call for those and especially whenever you've seen this repeated use of the union jack The wake-up call for everybody should be that politics is moving away from west minster People are starting to understand that to affect their own lives They want their politics in their own regions in their own nations and politics in their workplace That's what community organizing is all about finding those champions Who believe that they can go out there and be the voice for socialism and the trade union movement will not move away from that No amount of suspensions no amount of narrative from the likes of carlang There's no amount of problems that you might have with current leadership will move the trade union movement away from the fact that our bedrock Is working class people in the communities and representing their voice in the political arenas And i say arenas for a good reason There is much more than west minster politics and the trade union movement is going in that direction Even if the current leadership of the labor party is some way behind Moving on michael to the issue in respect of united leadership The will power before i get you i know i know it's weird to interject just before you ask this the precise question I ask you because you're doing the right thing But can you slightly move your microphone away from the zip on your jacket? Of course i'm sorry It's interfering with the sound a little bit now. Let's get on to the the the unite leadership battle. Sorry Yes, is that any better That's perfect. Yeah. I hope it is Yes, moving on to the unite leadership I hate to be the harbinger doom for all of those centrics and right wingers out there Who are sitting waiting for unite to fall into the hands of a right wing leadership such as such as a well-known ex regional secretary of the west midlands It is not going to happen Unite will remain in the hands of the left it will be a left leader that will take unite forward There's a very good reason for that and that is that we have We have a limit in respect of the amount of branches that are needed in order for you to get on the ballot paper I do not believe Uh, the unite branches will want to put a right wing candidate on the ballot paper But obviously if that happened if I was wrong and I would be knocked over by a feather if I was wrong to be frank Because I know the unite membership I know the activists and I know that they want unite Premised on the left of society But if I was wrong for some reason then those here described as left-wing candidates would have to come together and reach an accommodation Because what cannot happen At any stage in the in the next cycle of trade union leadership is the unite the foremost left union in the in the countries Cannot fall into the hands of the right wing. That would be a disaster It's not something that I would prepare be prepared to see happen And it's not something that the unite membership and the wider movement would ever excuse us for So a harbinger of doom for the those of the centric world the left will be running unite for some years to come Great. So that so the clarification there if if more if a right-winger gets on the ballot The left will only put forward one candidate. Is that that's correct? The right wing will not get on the ballot my Michael you're hearing up for me first because it is a High bar that they would have to meet and our branches will not Will not allow that to happen. But if for any reason I was wrong You can do two things first of all knock me over with that feather that I've referenced and secondly Put the lock in the door until the three candidates who describe themselves of the left Reach an agreement as to who the candidate should be Good to know. I think that will reassure Many of our our audience. Um, Howard Beckett. Thank you so much for joining us this evening. A real pleasure as always Thanks very much, Michael Um, let's go to a couple of comments learning to fly with 999 says as we know from dishey rishi And as proven by borris's recent response to a mirror journalist the government spend more energy on undermining sage than listening to them Ooh, what was borris's recent response to a mirror journalist? I will have to look into that Dalia, I'm sorry. You've been um Backstage for too too much of this show. Um So I want really good guests. So I've been happily just listening like I've sort of zoned out a little bit and I just forgot that I was on the Just forgot that I actually had to have things to say but um, no that was really really really great to interviews Do you know do you know the the dishey rishi reference about or borris johnson talking to the mirror about sage? We'll have to both Call ourselves political journalist alia What do we like? Um, right. You know what? I'm going to tell you now like the video go on helps us on the algorithm now Regular viewers of this show will know there are few journalists in britain who spout more irresponsible nonsense than talk radios julia Hartley brew up whether it be demonizing migrants or railing against lockdowns the murdoch employed shock jock Is a pernicious presence on our airwaves? And this week she kept her winning streak of chronic misinformation going Here she is interviewing the discredited u.s. Journalist andy and go There does seem to be One rule for one and one rule for the other now the argument on the on the day of the Washington dc saw those protests and that that Storming of the capital the argument being that if they had been say black lives matter protesters They would have been treated very differently by law enforcement because they've been black nor white And yet we have actually seen very different law enforcement very different media coverage when we see Particularly antifa, but also black lives matter protests almost sort of saying well these people feel passionately It's it's somehow it's justifiable. It's understandable But I imagine when it's your business or your home that's been burned down Or or you're living in fear every night that the people, you know coming into your neighborhood to do that That that it doesn't really matter what the cause is it's it's still the same level of fear Yeah, the arguments that if the protesters or writers have been left wing or far left and they would have been treated much harsher That's absolutely not true. You can look for example How they were treated let's say in seattle the largest city in the Pacific Northwest When blm and antifa actually claimed Territory as a separate sovereign city state chads for more than three weeks the The federal response from that in the state response was essentially to let them go and do it and this area the No-go zone which they set up a hard border that was manned by armed militias devolved into chaos and multiple homicides and shootings Now he was saying that you know the idea if the if the left had gone into Capitol Hill They would have been treating treating worse. That's just that's ridiculous I mean the left wouldn't have got into the Capitol building I mean it's it's it's just Unimaginable that they would have managed to get in there We know that the police seem to be going light potentially because of orders from above So the idea and especially it might not even be so much left right as a black white thing I mean the cops in America treat people differently based on their races is not particularly controversial Although i'm sure it is to andi engo At the beginning of that clip because I don't want to focus too much on what he's said I want to focus on who this guy is what is his status as a journalist and I said he was a discredited us Journalist now. Why did I say that now andi engo isn't as famous in this country as he is in the united states But across the pond he's made his name by hanging out with far-right demonstrators and filming aggression from people on the left So he's always posting on twitter. Look at these antifa. They're the real fugs. They're the real Violent ones now. He's often dismissed by leftists as a tall of the far right He always has been but on the likes of fox news where he frequently appeared He was able to put himself forward as an independent and objective journalist someone who just takes a camera to protests However, and this is why I say discredited because it all began to fall apart In september 2019 a left-wing activist went undercover with the far-right proud boys group Rolling stone have a good write-up of the downfall of andi engo. So how a right-wing troll managed to manipulate the mainstream Media so this is from a while ago. And this is them sort of outing him As as the activist he is Let's go to that article. So they say Last week the local newspaper the portland mercury reported that a left-wing activist going undercover as a member of patriot prayer A far-right group known for promoting and engaging in violent clashes with leftist activists had given the publication an 18 minute video That included footage of engo with a group of patriot prayer members as the members discuss an upcoming brawl Including weaponry to be used in altercations with antifa engo who describes himself as a journalist Did not record the conversation and does not appear to have his camera or notebook out for part of the footage He is seen on his phone. So this is someone who is who is there They're not really there to report on the far-right because what they tend to do is just take pictures of the left Looking aggressive. Um, who is there with a far-right group when they're planning What sounds like quite illegal stuff and he doesn't seem to think this is interesting enough to take notes for Um, the article goes on the source told the mercury that engo and patriot prayer have an Understanding that the group offers him protection when he covers rallies in exchange for favorable coverage While this has not been confirmed and engo strongly denies these allegations An audio conversation between members of the proud boys released by willa met weak Seems to confirm that such such discussions between engo and the proud boys had occurred as one man is recorded Saying that engo was attacked on june the 29th because he refused an offer of protection And the engo was fucking told that if he wanted protection from the proud boys He went in with us and he went out with us the man Says so this all presents him as not a neutral journalist someone who is basically I mean Almost participating really um as as someone who is um on these far-right protests and is Propagandizing on their behalf that that's what it seems like it's a huge far-right talking point to say the real aggressive people are Antifa, you know, the real fascists are antifa. We're just patriots. That's that's the argument You'll hear from the far right, which is one that the work of and the engo sort of Strengthens, um, and it seems that that's what it's intended to do. Um, now you might say look, this is, you know Here's an activist um navara media. They're also activists to some extent. That's that's true We though don't make up conspiracy theories No, we don't make up conspiracy theories and the engo has um, this is from that same rolling stone article You can go read the whole thing. I do recommend it. Um now this says in the hours following the mass shooting in el paso texas Which took more than 20 people's lives engo was instrumental in promoting the conspiracy theory that antifa had played a role When that was thoroughly debunked He helped perpetuate the theory that the man behind the date in ohio shooting was a member of antifa Despite the fact there is no evidence. He was involved in local activism or Organizing so this is someone who's saying these mass murders Um are the fault of antifa and we all really know what that's about. You know when you say This group are murderers. You're kind of you know If if if you're the favorite journalist of the far right then that's sort of sending a message which is violence is is somewhat Okay, um, so you might think you know, julia harley bruer Probably shouldn't get this guy on the show He's he's posing as a journalist an author Actually, he's he's an activist and an activist with some fairly unsavory groups who talk radio wouldn't like to explicitly be giving A platform to you might think that even if she did get him on at least she should challenge him somewhere You know, she's asking him about um an issue which is Very relevant to this. She's asking him about antifa and and how Right-wing protests go how left-wing protests go and she doesn't really challenge him on the fact that maybe he's a bit More of a participant than a journalist here and the you know, lots of stuff. He's reported in the past Wasn't true. Um, this was picked up by my esteemed colleague ash sarkar. She tweeted Um a bunch of the points i've just shown you to julie harley bruer and asked Hey julia Is this the same andiengo who circulated utterly discredited conspiracy theories after a far-right terrorist attack in el paso Who is said to have had protection arrangement with a white supremacist organization and was party to their plans to cause violence Very good question. julie harley bruer responds. I've no idea. I'm not responsible for what my guests do Now in response to this ash points out the obvious What do you mean? You have no idea He came to talk about his book Which is about antifa and he has a history of pushing discredited conspiracy theories about antifa Shouldn't a journalist know about that before interviewing him so you could challenge him on it Um julie harley bruer because she takes journalism so seriously Her responsibilities as a national broadcaster so seriously she said yawn You think everyone who doesn't share your views is a neo-nazi collaborator ash. It's boring now um now clearly julie harley bruer hadn't read that article Because the article suggested. Yes. There is actually some evidence that he was um Collaborating with neo-nazi. I mean he was he was clearly Very close to them. Um, that's what the proud boys and the the prayer boys Uh, was it the prayer boys? I forget all of their different names. Anyway, we'll go with the proud boys for now. That's what they are Um, and we can assume that that julie harley bruer hasn't bothered reading those. Um, julie harley bruer Let's go to her final tweet. She says I think mr. Andy engo has done some important work covering violent protests And I invited him on my show to discuss his book about that work If you want to ask him different questions, why don't you DM him? I'm just not interested in your tired agenda Um, now this is you know, she's saying he did some important work It's it's not my responsibility to ask about how he's done work in exactly that domain before Which has proved to be conspiratorial and fake It's it's a bit like interviewing david erving on the second world war and saying oh the book was good Why would I have asked him about the fact that he's been convicted as a holocaust now? Or what's what's relevant about that? Of course, it's relevant because the fact that someone spouts racist conspiracy theories In in in one part of of their discipline means that you probably shouldn't believe what they say in The rest of it I mean, especially if it's completely related as it is in in this particular instance Actually, I said that was the final julie harley bruer tree. I apologize. There's one more Um, let's go to this is the final one ash sarca and chums are jolly angry with me for interviewing and the engo About his new book not asking him the right questions makes me a fascist or something They'd be even more cross if you retweeted the interview that would make you a fascist, too So don't do it with a winking Face um darly. I want to bring you in on this I suppose it is one thing to get caught out interviewing a charlatan without doing the background research It's kind of another to double down and saying why would I do the background research on someone? I'm interviewing even though, you know The their background story is directly relevant to what i'm interviewing them about It will be to the surprise of no one that obviously I agree with ash, um in this sort of twitter spot Um, june harley bruer might not be responsible for everything that her guests do But she is responsible for what she does when her guests are on her show and she's also Kind of responsible with who she brings on and why? Um, you know and for what purpose and and she brought this guy on To legitimize a framework that she's very heavily invested in that she's really built a career of Um, which is you know to portray the left to portray progressives to portray black people Brown people as some kind of inherent threats to to people's safety And therefore a force that needs to be like clamped down on Which kind of leads to all scary things all kinds of scary things and this this thing with them the the proud boys And sort of the way that they use Journalism in this way This is a tactic that kind of reminded me of something that was developed against muslim communities in the uk actually Which is when you read more about the kind of strategies that they would employ Um, they kind of resonate which is you know far right groups like britain first would would go into mosques or muslim neighborhoods And basically start, you know behaving in a really threatening and provocative manner And then when they get a reaction they start filming and then use that footage to Spread fear and say, you know, look how sort of violent and threatening this group are They need to be cracked down on by the police by surveillance by border police or whatever Um, and you know, that's what you do when you don't have an argument You sort of rely on on good old sort of state power to do it to do it for you But you know, and I might kind of end up proving To an extent jr. One of jr. Hartley brewers her last tweet there but in what i'm about to say but We really need to be really careful here Um, and it's because it's easy to write someone off like Hartley brewer as sort of just a fringe sort of somewhat comical Um voice because you but you know, she she holds a lot of power. She's regularly invited on to Uh bbc question time to you know flagship bbc shows. She has her own show a really big radio station And this kind of like lurch to the far right in this way And this entrance of far right thinking into the mainstream and into actual government policy It often starts in this way It starts as kind of fringe voices that people don't take very seriously So they kind of keep their eye off the ball while they while they amass a huge amount of social And cultural power and then We get caught off guard when suddenly the political spectrum has swung very very far Um to to the right and it's swung so far that it's very difficult to then pull it back and This kind of you know, and I called her this before this sort of shock jock conspiratorial sort of style of of radio Propaganda that has been popular for a very long time in the u.s. And I don't think it played an insignificant part in in you know, the transformation of the republican party and the eventual election of of donald trump and we're seeing these same tactics being Used in the uk and really ramped up of this particular brand Are very well resourced financially backed Right-wing media and it seems particularly prevalent in the radio space Um, you know bolsynaro himself to think of another person as well as the example of trump and sort of the shock jock media um bolsynaro himself started off as a kind of fringe You know having a fringe sort of like media profile Having a segment on television that was sort of seen as a comical thing and then it sort of Is how he consolidated a huge amount of power and that that brings us to What many have portrayed as a kind of buffoonish You know Attack on the capital, you know, we see kind of the pictures of people dressed up and all of this and we kind of Part of it it becomes very heavily memed Right, and it's sort of we look at it as being a sort of chaotic thing that that failed and then it ended up in donald trump Leaving office and then you know, that's kind of the lid on that but It's easy to brush those moments off But this is really the far right and groups like proud boys who are being connected to these kind of journalists that are Portrayed as neutral journalists and are allowed to carry that cloud for a long time But this is really the far right calibrating itself They're testing the waters they're testing out different coalitions and different narratives and figuring out what it can get away with That it's a sign of deep organization And and deep embeddedness and I I want to remind people that these kinds of fascist insurrections They always fail before they succeed and the fact that they're getting signal boosted, you know in the context of in that context Of growing social and cultural capital the fact that figures like andy Are being signal boosted in what we can say is mainstream radio in the uk Is is very worrying Um, it's an incremental stage in what is a longer wider trend and so we need to be very careful We should also add it It's not only julia hartley brugh who has platformed this man also the wall street journal which as I should probably add is also owned by Rupert Murdoch this man has a lot to answer for Famously and published an article by andy engo saying that east london So in tower hamlet's the area near east london mosque had become like riyadh And because of pressure from from muslims or it was implied that because of of pressure from muslims It had become an alcohol restricted zone Now anyone who's ever been to bricklay knows that's that's not quite true Apparently there is there is one small grassy square in that area where drinking is not allowed and the council have said that's because of an Anti-social behavior thing it has nothing to do with Sharia law being implemented in east london So this guy is a grifter and now two two murdoch owned establishments were actually fox is also got it really goes on doesn't it? Rupert Murdoch has a lot to answer for Fox talk radio The wall street journal it goes on Darling, it's depressing isn't it? Yeah, and I think you know this is the sort of the state of the media landscape And when you have that in the context of you know, we had at the beginning of this interview at the beginning of this show um the interview with with um, Nathan and sort of looking at the the kind of irrelevance that the more kind of liberal more progressive Spaces in the mainstream media are kind of withering and becoming very very toothless Uh, it's it's a very very worrying trend and that's why organizations like navara are so important Just put up a little segue for you there michael you put a segue in there. Thank you, darlia. You know what to do That is true if you want a non-toothless media that can challenge these right-wing grifters And won't fire people for sending tweets about israel um Do go to navara media.com forward slash support and donate the equivalent of one hour's wage a month if you do that already Thank you so much. You make this possible if not You know what to do because I've already said to do it also My other ask is that you do subscribe to the channel navara media guys live every monday wednesday and friday at 7 p.m Um, we have videos going out every day. Um for now darlia. It has been an absolute pleasure as always Yeah, it's been lovely really good show today Mmm Thank you to all of our guests Who are no longer with us if they if they watch till the end thank you to you And thank you for watching. We'll be back on monday at 7 p.m. You've been watching tisky sour on navara media. Good night