 Weile gan y toffy TV a'n join by John Blame, gan have a chat about the business aspect of Evern, a lilt republic, peir dad a lilt chap, go right to the top. Gaeth y mernym yn hwn, y mernym busnes mewn. The most free it is for me as well. This video is sponsored by One Football, the app that keeps you up to date with the latest transfer rooms stats and scores, all in the one place that I'll load the app, it's free. Click the link in the description. John, while you are away, otherwise had they got you in then. Mr Meshiri. Upt is a shareholding there evidently, but Lord Grantchester or the Grantchester family shares, which of course you're well aware of being the chairman of the shareholder association, and he now owns 77% of the club. And now it was a planned increase, wasn't it? So, I mean, is there anything to be read into it really from other than it's just him strengthening in his hand? What do you mean by I read into it? Well, just, I mean, why would he feel the need to increase it? He was already the majority shareholder. Why would he? That's the material question, I guess. Think about it. He's invested a lot of his own personal wealth already, blessing and loans and things like that. And there's a big chunk of shares available for sale, whatever, I can't remember what John had, nine point, whatever it was or something. 8.6 or 9-ish, yeah. And if you think from a company's, you know, company's axe perspective, certain things happen when you've got certain amounts of shares, yeah. So, as you recall from the sharehold association, forcing reinstatement general meetings, you needed 5% of the shareholdings and things like that. But 9-ish per cent's a big chunk, yeah. Particularly as that probably made John either technically or about to be, you know, the second-largest shareholder. Yeah, yeah. So, why would you run the risk of somebody else being the second-largest shareholder? Yeah. So, in material terms, it doesn't give him any more disfellar, it doesn't give him any more power or influence or control than he had before. But it does obviously avoid the potential for somebody building up a good shareholding who could be disruptive, I suppose, is the best way to describe it. And it probably continues the general erosion of the larger shareholders, excluding the huge number of minority shareholders. My own view is to show the shareholders is that, you know, the majority shareholders, so he's the majority shareholder. The large shareholders in the past would have been those who were on the board like Bill and John Woods and others prior to then. Anyone who's not then would have been a minority. Right, yeah. But I know Bill in particular considers the minority to be those who literally have handfuls of shares. And I guess they're the people who would be thinking, what happens to me, are they going to force me to sell and things like that. And he's always said to me when I've met him, no, he's not. And so those people who aggregated up around 15% of the shareholding doesn't make a blind bit of difference to us. No difference at all. Yeah. Probably if we wanted to try and do something, I don't know, some extreme example, for whatever reason, we tried to force a general meeting. Yeah. Then it would make it harder. But John didn't formally back us last time. So in that sense, John sat on the fence, so he'd have helped if we needed him, but we didn't. Right, okay. So in that sense, it doesn't make any difference really. So yeah, it's just, it's a reaffirmation of his commitment, I suppose. I was going to say is that, I mean that's something me and Pat done a little thing when he broke about it and we were just saying, well to us just looking at it as fans on the outside, without any, it's just a fate of demonstration of his commitment to the football. But that's kind of how I looked at it. And the club's appreciating in value. And I guess. So that'll make his, his, well you go up as a club. To a degree it protects his investment. Remember I think, I don't know, we certainly said it on Everton Business Matters and it might have even said it here whether it was me or Roger or somebody, and the dark and distant past, when he had less than 50%, he was lending all that money to the football club without any guarantee of getting it back. And you might argue that the reason he could and would was prepared to do that was because he knew that in the fullness of time he would have control. Yeah, yeah. And I guess perhaps, you know, grandchester and what have you, you know, the amount that they've received was agreed a long time ago. And if your father had my share in you're saying, well according to the market value of the business, he shares a worth 50p. And I've agreed to buy them for 25. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you, it's true. Yeah, there is, there is that. So that's part of it. Moving past that then, obviously this next month we're going to see stadium designs and the second part of the consultation. So it comes about and now the Collins Youngers has met some fan groups and the Fans Forum and Everton Disabled Supporters Club and people like that this week. So things are kicking on there. There's obviously we ramp up towards the second consultation. Where are we in terms of the stadium in your opinion? I know nothing's really changed as far as the last time we had the consultation. Everything seems to still be on the right track. Do you think this consultation because it is next month and designs are going to be shown and people then I think will get a little bit more excited than they have been? It becomes more real when you can see what it looks like. That's it, I think at the moment it's a concept to us isn't it still? It's only the outside. Well yeah, yeah of course but it's going to be good to see that kind of stuff. So are you someone who believes that we're still on track for I know 2022 is gone that's kind of gone now. That was possible to very recently. Yeah, but are you still someone who thinks that 2023-2024 season is a big possibility for us to get off it? Why wouldn't I? I'm just asking you. I'm just asking you. I suppose it's a question for you. Well I've seen conversations from what they say on Twitter saying it won't happen and stuff so I'll try myself. I think Evertonian is a very pessimistic animal we've put up with a lot for a long time. We have. The stadium one is a particular we've had such screw ups in the past. You know where the Kirby well they'll go reverse walk the whole park Kirby full of that the kings up and so on. That classically until it's finished you get people perhaps when you do your stuff and all the rumours are going on we'll move on to transfer windows soon anyway. But when people talk until I see the guy on the shirt up I don't believe he's signed and the same will apply with the stadium. Until I actually see it publicly stated we've got planning permission and some guy's seen the diggers down there or that sort of stuff. Even then people say well until it's physically building and then until it's finished So until someone's sat in their seat in the south stand with a load of people stood up in front of them and the atmosphere is fantastic there'll be someone somewhere who won't believe until then and even then they'll look out at this hopefully magnificent thing and go I still don't believe it. And then the other extreme are the people who believe everything the club tells them and therefore what you're talking about and the vast majority of people are somewhere in the middle either towards the left or towards the right or left centre, right centre or all that sort of stuff. So if right centre in that example is more positive then I'm at the more positive end I mean I have the good fortune to speak to people who I trust and therefore believe but I also ask other people if I trust and believe and other people who may not trust and believe and then you do some correlation and you find out what looks like truth just because you should sanity check everything and people who have a single source it's like journalism isn't it if you have a single source and you go in the newspaper with it you might look a bit daft you might be right but you might not but if you've got three sources who are not connected all saying the same thing or similar I've said my misses we said she'd ring when we were filming I thought I'd put this on mute sorry yeah so everyone I speak to to do with getting the money where the project plan is up to all those sorts of things say it's on track yes we'll submit a planning application this year and then it's in the lap of the approval bodies so when people do their own timelines with their own assumptions people when they read that should say that's somebody's assumption and if you change it often with project plans change the assumptions that's what counts often the assumptions are the things that make the difference so I think you can do a timeline that says well if planning takes this long or if consultation takes this long or if if if then it'll be after 23 or August 23 but my understanding was because 22 was possible there must still be some wriggle room in the plan but I think I've said it recently on Twitter clearly we've eaten into some of the contingency that is in the plan people start getting a bit uptight about being called in for review by the Secretary of State everyone thinks that called in equals public inquiry which it doesn't have to in fact it's less likely to it just means the Secretary of State is going to review the plans or the decisions that have been made so you can make assumptions about what ifs on that but right now you call them the naysayers but they are told yourself if it isn't 23 you'll come back to this video and told yourself but if it were open for 23 no-one will be saying I told you so to the naysayers will they but that's what happens but it's easier to be negative or conservative or wait and see but yeah at everything I get I listen to what I see and hear says that we'll do it I mean again I'm sure he's been quite clear hasn't he since he took over in what was it March 2016 was new stadium new stadium we've got the land we've evidence seems to be following a pattern that I can't ever well we weren't I don't think we've ever been this far then I mean any of the stadiums you know Walton O Park was conversations with Jo Anderson and Tesco was conversations with other people King's Doch was 25 million quid for us the King's Doch at that time and you know I'm sure we could have all probably raised it if they let us know that but we are where we are and we're on track for that and I for one I can't wait to see the designs because I think the design think it will help with it they'll be you know they'll provide an anchor point won't they I mean I think it's a big month next month or the end of next month for Dan Meese because he's been rebel rousing for quite a long time about what this thing's going to look like and inevitably there will be people who don't like it when they see it because it's going to be of course hopefully like no stadium we've ever seen really from outside of me there's not a lot you can do inside it's seats and a bit of green stuff but yeah I mean capacity is an issue I think that was me next thing that was me next thing because I know we both you know we were at the last consultation I put in any other notes or whatever it was questions 6 or whatever it was we all did I think a lot of us did it it has to be bigger than 52,000 I did say that for me and I said it I think we did a video last week me and Ped or whoever we were talking to I didn't see any way it could be less than 55 personally I still don't know even if Dan Meese was sat here with with Denise Barrabach and Ellen Farad and Bill I'll be saying I don't understand how we can plan to be less than 55 I don't me and you sat here six weeks ago and went through perhaps if we reduced the size of the width of the seats we could throw another 3,000 in and make it 55 you know that to me is still I'm not an architect and Dan Meese could laugh when I say that but that to me is something that I think everything could do to give us I think if everything come out and went it's 55,000 from day one and there's perspective there if there's a change in the legislation or if the safety groups at the stadium say yeah we can have safe standing and it's one to one and we can extend it to 60,000 or whatever I think a lot of Evertonians would go okay 55,000 okay that's better than what it was it's 16,000 more than we've got a goodersham park it put us above Newcastle and it puts us up but you know it's 5,000 less than Tottenham but it's still better than what I think a lot of people would be comfortable with that more so more so it's not what we'd all want at 60 or more if we could we want as many but do you think there's any just sitting here today without knowing anything do you or do you think no it's a close shot do you think there's any way the club will listen if enough people bang on about the capacity or do you think it's you need someone who thinks it's pointless really if a fan's making that type of person I am is never pointless and just for a brief moment I can well imagine a previous chief exec sitting in his office and getting told that people don't like the badge and then thinking so what a month later it's history so the so-called fan power really matters it was one thing that's never reconciled it's like that horrible political thing that goes on and has been going on for almost as long as this has been going on that you know there's lots of fans out there who think 52 is plenty there's some who think it's too big there's people yes there are Gavin you're out there yeah 52 is too big yeah he thinks 42 is plenty yeah but the point is that it's all with hearsay or very subjective things like oh empty seats I remember Dan Meese said that in St Luke's you know that empty seat so on but the objective people who have spoken to at the club fundamentally just say it's 52 because the business case doesn't stand up for more that is more understandable than an emotional we'll have empty seats yeah yeah fair enough you know my view you know you saw again it's a ticket price we could talk about ticket price and then and so on but if the real reason is we just don't think it stands up financially to have more than 52 then that's all the club needs to say I personally insulted when anyone at the club tells me we wouldn't fill it because I have a real issue with that I really do I have a real issue with any ever and fan who thinks that we couldn't fill the 60,000 seats of stadium every single week now people listen to this and say oh yeah well when we're really I was gonna swear then when we're not playing as well as we can yeah yeah you know the good of something 15, 16, 17 and so on but I mean that's just such a half empty view of the world it's not true if this man's talking any truth at all why would it ever be empty? you know we didn't have a great season but try and get a ticket for the last home game or the second to last home game exactly so the fan base is out there I mean the club talks about there's 10,000 on the waiting list but not all of them are gonna take up the options and therefore you've got all these desk exercises fancy spreadsheets going on but no one's asking me how many more tickets I want yeah and that's the point you know Paul on business matters you know we're a fabulous soundbite which is there's so many people out there who don't know that Evertonians yet yeah and the club doesn't know the people who would have tickets if they were sold them yeah and the other thing which I'm starting to get in the head around from hearing what might not happen is that we're gonna have a substantially larger walk up than perhaps most of us would think I mean that my view is that the Godderson if you do the percentage of season tickets to capacity then I think you would end up with a season ticket count of about 42,000 and a 52,000 seater stadium and my understanding is we're planning for it to be less than that quite a bit less than that therefore we're assuming there's gonna be a bigger walk up yeah bigger walk up's just a euphemism for people who can't be guaranteed a seat of course and as we all know I mean I sit in the park end up there and my average ticket price per seasons what is it per game rather there's probably about 25 but a game isn't something with my season ticket but if you could get a seat in there because it's all season tickets for an ad hoc game it'd be 50 now from a business point of view that's good news yeah of course if we could fill the stadium with walk up by definition we'd get maybe twice as much match day income wouldn't we because everyone's paying twice as much and then you get into how does that work with affordable ticket price and you get into all those dynamics well I think it needs to be put out there for me there's no way it's not gonna increase we're all gonna be paying more up absolutely and anyone doesn't believe just go back to that business case thing again go and have a look at Paul's blogs and stuff and I know I say this almost every time we talk about the subject he's done it to death he's had a loss to understand or try to understand why the business case doesn't stand up for more than 52 when he says it doesn't stand up if it's less than 60 but that's back to that when I said before about assumptions clearly the clubs assumptions around income must be different to what we're thinking well if you're saying it's £25 a game on that for yours and that's the most expensive stance you're gonna be saying I will be saying well it's probably gonna be £35 a game on average I don't know I really don't know but I'm saying it wouldn't ought or £30 a game on that it's gonna be more than what it is now and I think it's really important that people discuss that and start to get their heads on that it is important because for every person who thinks well I don't want empty seats there won't be any but I don't want empty seats I want good atmosphere and all those good things what will become important to people is how much it's gonna cost me to go to the match because there are people who go the game right now buying season tickets who it's a big chunk of their income and therefore any increase in toll could take them out of the fan base and that's something the club has to think about as well so when they're talking about demand maybe that's driven the model on £52,000 and so on but what's really it's not too difficult for anyone to grasp is we're building a brand spanking new stadium and it's gonna cost some money so we're gonna increase debt some of that debt is either going to be to large shareholders or shareholders in the round if we do a bond issue or that sort of thing but a chunk of it we're gonna borrow we're gonna borrow £3,000,000,000 whatever it might be like we're gonna do with Liverpool City Council that money will just like paying your mortgage off of your DD going out every month, haven't you? and the annual cost of that money is an additional cost to the business so if you imagine we transplant ourselves from Gooderson Park into Bramleymore our costs have just gone up whatever it is £20, £25 million a year so we either have £20, £25 million a year less to spend or we have to increase our income by at least £20 to £25 million to be equal to be equal now the general headline from the audience might be oh that's all gonna come from hospitality name and rights well forget them for a moment because we're talking about annual income every single year but clearly some of it could come from name and rights so £10 million a year comes from that you've still got 15% to consult but there's only going to be £4,500 premium seats in there unless that changes and so when you do the sums let's keep it simple and say ok by some miracle all the premium seats pay for that debt they cover that debt that probably means an annual increase in the cost of premium seats every single year between now unless you do it as one big chunk between now and we get there in 2023 I don't know of the order 5, 6% or something every year and then you triple it because you've got 3,000 many places and the increase in matchday income covers the debt but I thought we wanted better players we wanted to give the manager more money we want to drive assets on the field therefore we have to increase income and I know we don't want to go down this track but that means commercial income and all those sorts of things I think it's somewhat naive to think we'll get better commercial deals just because we've got a nice stadium but the other things that go with the nice stadium is potentially a better team a more competitive team and all those sorts of things let me ask you this then I totally understand that and I think everyone will understand that now just very quickly we've just seen the other occupants of the city doing something a couple of weeks ago the after birth I call but the fact what I would say is that we've been at them and I'm using them because there are rivals in our city playing in the same division as us so that's why there are a league club in Europe that's what they are but to me on the outside they've gone up in the last 4 or 5 years even bigger as a brand and everything so how can Everton who play in the same city play in the same league how can we not match it because I think but they may be more successful but I don't think they'll ever be as big well-wired because it's just the way it is I look at Liverpool and think the same 50 years takes a lot of time to catch up I look at Liverpool and think they will ever be as big as them globally but we could be as successful as them going forward and all that when you look at Everton because when I look at it I just think the smaller everything we do Liverpool went and got Peter Moore who was the chairman of EA Sports he knew everyone he's an unbelievable fella so many contacts everywhere and since he's coming he's talking about developing their digital side of everything they do is increased now Everton could surely mirror that but on a smaller scale because he's got a digital background a games playing background and he's talked about current and future generations consuming the game in a different way and all that and you've heard him say that I've heard Sasha say that because he has I've heard Sasha say certain things maybe he hasn't done this frequently and one of the things Peter Moore is doing is he's got his presentation I've seen it at the IOD and he's on the road pushing it and what we don't see which is part of the answer to your question is who's on the road pushing Everton who's living and breathing that brand from a positive perspective he's on the road every day and if you're not careful I'll call him a chief engagement officer because it's still there guys and that's the point he's a salesman that's what he is he's both a salesman of himself and a salesman of his football club and he will inevitably impact what goes on inside the football club I mean even Klops getting a bit more edgy about some of the things he says which are marketing statements and things like that so part of the answer to your question is we need better quality people in those leadership roles with very clear accountability and we need to be bolder than we are and we need to move with greater pace because you started at the first half of this or whatever it turned out to be when it's finished talking about the stadium for all the fact that if you do a balance sheet of what's good and what's bad on the good side will be things like well since Denise took control of it when Elston went so far everything we as a club have said will happen has happened we're going to do this at this time we've been sensible about managing expectation by being vague like in the summer before the end of the year that sort of stuff but that's reasonably prudent and people will build confidence as and when things happen so the second phase of public consultation will happen I don't know whether the club actually understands whether it really can do one of the things it said about pretty much every single person who was involved in the first phase of fan consultation will be invited to the second phase of fan consultation because fan consultation has to conclude before the public consultation starts otherwise it's pointless so we've got three or four weeks to do that so that's an interesting one but clearly some fans consultation has taken place shareholders association the shareholders were the first people they spoke to last week and then this week and that they've done those other groups but the point being when you're doing all those things we have on the negative side of it would be could it have been done quicker what we're doing in July could we have done it in March what we did the previous March could we have done and so on so we're making the best of a bit of a sticky situation that Denise probably inherited and we're doing slowly, slowly cautious, cautious approach and I had a chat with somebody I don't know whether it was a DM or publicly on Twitter it's there if it was publicly but what we're trying to do here is front load a lot of the stuff that will save us time at the back end and so if assumptions that say getting planning could take eight or nine months resulting it taking eight or nine months then perhaps the three to six months we've taken longer on this side of the submission no if it was wasted time wasn't it but clearly if we spend three to six months longer on this side and knock three four to seven months off that side it was worthwhile and that's what people you're not inside the tent you don't know what the propensity is for that but the point is as long as they can I've heard people on Twitter saying things are slipping well nothing slipped that's it the club never ever said beyond Elston it was 2022 no but they also said there'll be a consultation before Christmas here happened there'll be a second one in the summer and it's about to happen in three weeks time and then a planning application this year so they've got to theoretically they've got to December 31 yeah and then I think the general meeting we were talking about hopefully start building in the first quarter 2020 but that of course is a sunny day plan that approval comes quite quickly but it also means how close to the end of 2019 is it I mean I know again go and have a look at his blog guys but Paul's done his timeline but I think his timeline is got approval in whatever something that happened in 2020 January the first because of course if you get told publicly we're going to submit a planning application this year and if you're going to do a timeline you make it the 31st of December don't you so any time it is before then brings back the timeline and then if you make an assumption that it's eight or nine months to gain planning approval and it's three then it moves to the left six months and there's six months buffer in there already which no one knows what it's for if you remember and that's undoubtedly some form of contingency and if that isn't used it comes back another six months so doing all those sums in your head people as you can now that's why 2022 was possible yeah and now it's not because something has gone to the right so something has slipped something not publicly but in there planning it must have done well listen and I'll tell you offline what I think it is if it's right at 2023 then it's right at 2023 let me ask you this then very quick I mean the going forward I want evidence to improve in all areas I want to chase Liverpool down or chase Man City down or chase it well right now I mean I think you make the point about they've elevated themselves over the last two or three years on the back of some good buying on the back of some exceptional selling Suarez and Catino funded the rest of it so to speak three years ago we wouldn't have aspired to catch them and we would locally but not as getting right to the top because they were in a way almost as far from the top as we were having spent lots more money sort of thing now if we were to compete with them we'd be in the top two or three not the top four or top six top two or three I just mean use them as a benchmark for wherever the best is we should use as a benchmark but they are one of the best so that's why I said Man City and if you do it organically in the sense of it's a bit like athletes isn't it oh you know Baz holds the 100m world record but I claim I hold a clean 100m world record and in that example you would be Man City the way it's super charged through their ownership and I'd be Liverpool they're the clean club in that sense in that analogy so hitting them would be more than adequate but generally with the stadium do you do you think that because this is what I think a lot of people want to know or are curious about do you think the stadium will harm us financially in terms of it likely won't overall hopefully because that's what we've got it but will hate our spending on the team or is it from a different pot so to speak at the end of the day the football club has income has outgoings so it's all the same pot some naive statements like ringfenst and things they're the things you might say at a certain stage but I'm telling you if there's money in this pot and you need money in that pot you'll move it isn't there going to be a separate company for the stadium or is that not? that's just the finance in it and put to some park stadium limit it exists but I mean yes clearly they can do and maybe that's to do with investments and borrowings and all those sorts of things but ultimately the football club will have a charge for the stadium whether whatever it's called the stadium company is renting the stadium to the football club still has a cost to the football club and as the only form of income that the stadium company might have is actually the rent then it's got to cover so you think it'll stop us spending I think it could and it's why things like ticket pricing capacity the claims around business cases are really quite material because if we're going to move to a beautiful new stadium on the banks of the Royal Blue Mercy and have no more money to spend on assets what the hell are we doing it for what the hell are we doing it for so clearly we're constrained at Goodison with some of the incomes because there's not a lot of hospitality the actual capacity of the stadium you've got sight lines so it's hard to justify increasing prices when people start getting pillars all those things are reasons positive and valid reasons for going to a new stadium so that's the first thing does a new stadium stack up as viable then there's a premium for being where we've chosen to put it and that becomes then the number doesn't it whether someone's saying the stadium now costs 400, 500, 600 million, wherever it costs then that's what it costs and therefore that becomes a drag on the business and therefore that is what has to be counted and the only way you can counter that is ensuring that your revenue is a net gain on what would happen if you'd stayed here or put the stadium somewhere else the answer to your question is if it's not a net gain ie you pay all the debt and have got more money then yet it will impact on players so in that case then what's the point because the business case must say there's a net gain otherwise you wouldn't be doing it because ultimately the one thing we are listening it's going to be great and it's fantastic having this stadium and it's iconic and it's on the skyline that's where the rubber hits the road but ultimately the only way anything and any football club is successful the only way I've used them as an example of being successful is about putting players on the pitch that could win things right I wouldn't be saying do you think we can be like Liverpool if Liverpool were 15th or do you think we should be like Man City if Man City were 10th they're the two teams at the very top at the moment but the two teams the two most expensive squads in Europe being football by the way first and second in the Premier League so unless everything can continue to put their hand in the pocket and better and better and built smart buying of course because I think Liverpool I've bought really smartly and the selling like you said smart selling has enabled them to build a team without having to go to Yeaghan Clock or to Pequah the Ole see size matters really does absolutely size matters if you're talking sporting a good big in I'll always be a good little in I beat lots of good big in well you're probably better than them well there you go I was quick so you had an advantage so if we can't overnight quadruple or tenfold increase our commercial income I think commentators are right when our commercial performance clearly would benefit greatly from us winning things but that doesn't mean to say it can't be made better without winning things so you have to do that organic growth then you get some step change when we win the FA Cup or we win the league cup or we're in Europe every single year or we sell some for 150 million quid because even things like that make you seem differently they had 150 million pound player or the opposite you don't sell them and you keep them and then you can attract players and so on and so on so you need to be smarter the big beats little and less little does something else like working harder for example so perhaps you go to markets where the competition is less than it would be perhaps you do things differently just to be different you know we talk about having affordable ticket prices for brand new mall or even for godderson park lots affordable because of our match going fans are broadly the same demographic of those that go to the other place excluding the tourist types then clearly our lot can afford the same prices that they can afford and they are more expensive so we may choose to be less expensive than them but have the gap narrowed and it's awfully laudable this is corporation versus club all that rubbish it's very laudable to maintain ticket prices but it actually is it artificial and I don't think it is because you could say we were full because our ticket prices are low well there's no football fan I know who says I'm a Liverpool fan but I go to godderson because the tickets are cheaper but you may gain you may gain fans but you may gain fans because it's more accessible so the answer to your question is being smarter whatever that means and you could do a whole bloody series of videos on what does that mean but we're slow we're cautious we need to be bold and intellectually and commercially aggressive do something different that gets attention drive the social media platforms drive the digital content you said to me before and I've not seen it that pl did a a jokey jokey about evidence fixulous winter is coming well I've noticed that whoever is driving on digital Twitter for example is a bit cuter now and bang so drive up the number of followers give the media content they can't get anywhere else say to Sky you can come to fishpot any time you like so start off they'll come to us because they've got to fill something at 3 o'clock in the morning but then they'll realise these evidence are really nice and then you start getting positive vibes about what the media think at the moment we hold the media at arm's length and give them the absolute minimum you know sorry I'm on one now aren't I you've got like formula one because I'm a formula one fan you take formula one it's like the very top of the tree on motorsports you've got if you look at Vettel and Lewis Hamilton from different countries slightly different ages but the only thing they've got in common is that they both drive formula one racing cars the cars are different blah blah blah blah is different and all that sort of stuff and then they get split by thousands of a second two different design teams two different factories split by thousands of a second and yet sometimes when one's following the other the man comes on the radio and he says to Vettel if Hamilton goes in the pits don't if he doesn't go in the pits do throw the dice and maybe part of that being smarter is be different throw the dice be different because if you try and do cautious, sensible textbook growth this is my foot racing analogy on business matters the other guys are running faster than us so we're never going to catch up so we'll never ever catch up we have to do something different take a shortcut and sprint might not work but it's easier said than done saying to be different but at the moment we're just we could be a bit more bit more lively, a bit more bold and that means the fan base as well to be honest we don't want to be called a cult I'd rather be called a cult winning things than be told a lovely friendly people's club not winning things spot on you can check John out on Everton business matters I've asked loads more business chat so check that out make sure you do give us a subscribe, thanks very much for watching if you want more videos make sure you check Peter out as well see you later, cheers