 Podcast was round table, round 121. You spent how much on podcast gear? You can actually say that two different ways. The first way, the way I just said it, means what are you doing, crazy pants? The second way could be like, hey, you spent how much on podcast gear? Like, I can't believe you can do a podcast that cheaply. So quality can be achieved at both. But that is motivated from one of the stories we're gonna get to tonight. So this one will be fun. I think I have a lot of good topics here. I think I said aye, but I meant we. And yeah, I mean, we're gonna talk about, apparently, multi-cam video podcasting, advanced audio production, Anker's got a new deal for you. You know, that's always good and some other stuff. So I'm gonna jump right in since I do have the story that led the title of this round. But let's meet the round table first. Starting on my far left, new round tableer, I believe first time, Alex, welcome to the show. Well, thank you very much for having me and you're right, it is my first time. We've had a few attempts, but I'm glad to be here. Very cool. Yeah, listen to that silky smooth condenser mic and look at that studio. So if you're not watching youtube.com slash podcasters round table, first of all, you should. I think we're like five subs away from 600. Numbers don't matter, but you know, we still care. So you want a sub over there, but you could see Alex's awesome studio. And that's one of the reasons I picked tonight's, tonight's leading story, because I know we have a few gear nerds on this panel. So that's always fun. Dave, co-host, welcome back. Yeah, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting.com. Oh man, I knew I'd fail somewhere. All right, you forgot to hit record. No, I'm recording, but you gotta plug your mic into the recorder. Yeah. So you guys are coming in, it's recorded great, which means I get to download the youtube, cut out the piece. That's what happens when you're shifting your studio around constantly. I bet Alex has some experience with that, but I don't know how many of you guys have a sit down every time, flip on the switches and you're ready to go. I do not, because I'm mixing up the styles all the time, but we can talk about that in a minute. Ross, welcome to your first round table. Hey, thanks for having me, Ross Brand from LivestreamUniverse.com and my podcast are Livestream Deals and Brandon Broadcasting. Very cool. Well, Dave, I'm gonna let you actually lead off with a story. I'm gonna talk about this anchor thing a little bit. While I plug in my microphone, you're hearing my microphone, fortunately, but the audio only podcast, you are hearing the archived and now I'm switching. Go Dave. Yeah, there's a link. I'll put it out in the chat room. Anchor announced today that, hey, they're ready to give you a sponsor for your show. Which to me, I was like, well, okay, because so far Anchor's had about, they've been given $14 million and it's absolutely free. So you can make as many shows as you want, as many downloads as you want, no limits. It's just everything's free. And I'm like, okay, they're eventually gonna have to make money with something. And they did the one thing where they tried to set up their own Patreon and from what I've seen so far, that hasn't really worked out well. And so there's this whole new thing, like sponsors for everyone, Asterix, as long as you're in the U.S. So that was one little thing. But I went over and I jumped on and I was like, okay, I haven't played with Anchor in a while. And in the little video that they show, it's, hey, here, just sign up here and blah, blah, blah, and you'll see an ad. And in the ad, it shows $20 CPM. And I'm like, that's higher than expected. Because when I've played with other dynamic ad tools, you're looking at like $1.50 per CP. If you're gonna go crazy, 250 CPM for all these dynamic home depot, that kind of stuff. And so I was like, all right, now you have my attention. So I went over, well, lo and behold, they were ready to give me a sponsor right now. And I was like, well, this is great. Who's the sponsor? Well, you guessed it, anchor.fm. So what I thought was some way for them to actually make money is yet another way for them to spend money because they're, they are their own sponsor and the CPM is not 20, it's 10. And then also 10 for them. I imagine it's gonna fluctuate, right? So where it could be 20, it could also be that $1.50. In this article for me, the one thing they don't mention is what the CPM is, but you've discovered it by actually going through it, right? Yeah, I just, I was like, I gotta see what's going on. And what's interesting, they have a, again, they have an interesting interface. You say, yeah, I wanna record the ad. So it's you, it's a host red ad. They give you the script, you read it, and then they somehow dynamically insert it into your show. And you can pick where you want it to go. So their interface is fine and all. I'm just like, all this, all this company really needs is to make some money. It's nice that it is dynamic ad insertion. You do get to choose where it goes. And what was the host red? They, at least they did make it still host red. In fact, it's so host red, Dave, that you could say anything you want, apparently. Well, yeah, I went over and of course, I'm doing an ad for Anchor. So I'm not a huge fan. So I'm like- On your show called what, Dave? My show is called Anchor Sucks on the Anchor platform. Brought to you by Anchor. Brought to you by Anchor. And so I'm like, hey, you know where the easiest place is to start a podcast? You know, so I just put on the, the crappiest radio voice I could. And then at the end, I even, at the end, I'm like, hey, I'm getting paid 0.007 cents for this. I threw that at the very end of my ad. Thinking it would get rejected, but then I looked at their FAQ and they kind of went, yeah, we're not really approving ads at this point. Like it's kind of a free-for-all. And I went, oh, I got to go re-record that ad then because I could go to town on that. So- Yeah, they will. And I guess Anchor takes 30%, which seems to be pretty standard. Apple does that too for like apps and stuff. Yeah, so when you hear $10 per thousand downloads, that's really seven. Right, and then I think to get your money out, you have to use Square or something like that, which takes like 25 cents. So basically $10, as Sean Thorpe pointed out, former roundtabler, still roundtabler, you end up, I think it's like 666 is what you take, which is perfect poetic poetry for Anchor. But yeah, so make your own, I don't know. I kind of joke that there's no indie in CPM, meaning that it just doesn't really make sense, but for independent CPM, I mean, I've talked about it for a long time, it's just not a model that works. It doesn't make you money that's worth, I think, inserting someone else's brand or ad in front of your audience. Now, obviously that's based on the size of, I'm saying independent like that means you don't get a lot of downloads, but that's also not true either. So I don't know, Alex, do you, I mean, what do you think of Anchor and sponsorships like dynamic, this type of sponsorship as a whole? Well, I'm conflicted because like, obviously, you know, podcast ads as an industry, as a whole, it's making quite a bit of money now. It's not anywhere near the, you know, monolithic astronomical numbers that radio is producing right now, but that is changing. And I understand why, you know, the advertisers, they want ROI and they want to have more tracking, more data, more in-depth rich metrics, obviously dynamic ad insertions, obviously one part of the puzzle here. But, and I applaud what Anchor is trying to do here, but why wouldn't you as a podcaster at least make the effort to, you know, approach companies yourselves, especially I would say for a lot of podcasters who don't have a lot of download numbers, I can think of a few that are actually making a sizable, you know, side income from advertising and they're not pulling in a ton of numbers, nowhere near what you would think. And a lot of it is just them doing the ad sales themselves and they're positioning the ROIs not in so much as you're gonna get necessarily a guaranteed sale by having an ad on my podcast, but it's very much building a brand awareness because they promote it not just on the podcast but on their social media, they have banner ads promoting the product on their website. Actually, I can think of one person in particular, Todd Hancock who used to be, you know, he made a name for himself here in Vancouver on Seafox which is a very popular well-known radio station. And he has his own podcast now called the Toddcast Podcast and he told me how much he makes and I was shocked and he's not pulling in like a ton of numbers, not like 20,000 a month or anywhere like that. So I was really shocked and he explained his model and how he does it. So and that's something I'm working on now for my own podcast network but that's something I would encourage any podcaster, you know, it's just try to make a goal of it yourselves. And I don't think enough people really try. I think a lot of people just kind of just think, well, how can I approach these people? I won't even bother because I'm not pulling in those numbers, right? I think, yeah. I think a hard part would be a lot of people don't, would have no idea really where to start. Like what the conversation, like what do I even ask for? That's reasonable. How do I not screw it up? Right? They ask about a certain amount of money. It doesn't convert, you know, the guy that you mentioned I mean being, is it a, is it a general interest show or is it very specific, you know? It's specific. He does, he's kind of doing more of what he did at Seafox. So, you know, he already, he had an existing audience obviously that followed him onto the podcast and obviously expanded his reach and expanded his audience, but he's doing more of a music type rock focused podcast. So he does a lot of interviews with musicians, not exclusively musicians, but a lot of musicians. Actually, he just interviewed, I don't know if it's out yet, but he just interviewed Ed the sock. I don't know if you guys know Ed the sock. Anyways, he, so it's, it is specific. Cool. I have to know how you are so close to that condenser. It could be a wide angle thing and without plosives because it's just a side derailment. Being careful. Is it being careful? It's my technique. Did you, all right. Well, I mean, I can explain that quickly. There's a couple of things. I don't know if you want to go into that now, but we can, we can put that aside. We're good for sidetracks here. Yeah. Let us know. Okay. Well, my, and I actually just had a change, a minor change to my setup here. I actually changed just below me here in my rack. I was previously, I still have them, DBX two to six S channel strips, which I know you're familiar with. I don't know if you're still using them, but I use two of them from my other mics, my other co-hosts and guests. I was using one of my voice and I just switched to an ART voice channel. It's a class A preamp with a tube on the input stage, but it's a full channel strip. So it's got compression, parametric EQ. It's got de-sing. It's got an expander gate on it. It has all that sort of stuff. But as far as plosives are concerned, you do have to be careful. I don't run it without, I run it without a pop filter. So obviously there can be problems, but it's partly the processing chain. So high passing the mic and then just being careful about placement. So I actually turn the mic slightly sideways. I don't have the capsule pointing directly. So the wind from my mouth is actually going to the side of the microphone as opposed to if I were talking like this, right? It would actually be more of a problem. But if I turn my head slightly, it still picks up my voice, but I'm not, that wind is going past the capsule. Yeah, definitely. Good mic technique, always something to work on, especially when you're new and you're not used to it. But your pop filters, if you're new, I always call them the training wheels for podcasters because you get used to wear how far as you'd be from the microphone and then it helps with plosives. But you can see once you learn, because you can't always count on a guest coming in and being, you know, especially if they've never been in front of a microphone, you can't trust that they're gonna have perfect mic technique. Well, that's with the SM7B. So we've already dipped our toes into the gear conversation, which is good because we like gear here. The audience generally likes gear here. But I've got the SM7B going right now. I've had a lot of different mics on this show, but I got this one actually because I was interested in it as a guest microphone because I feel like it's a microphone that you can put almost anyone in front of and they sound pretty good. And based on the pop filter, it comes with two foam different screens and it's sort of protected against a lot of things. Handling noise or, you know, it's kind of got a built-in shock mount. It's got a, it's set back and it has two different layers of foam here for plosives. So you know, and it sounds good on those voices. It's adjustable in the back. So I see Ross, you also have the SM7B. But before we dive into that, I thought it was funny here in this anchor article. It says, well, not funny. It says we now power 40% of all new podcasts. And what I found actually Daniel's not with us tonight, but I think Daniel has been looking at some numbers, which I think you'll find out probably, I don't know if they're shocking, but I think he's finding that a lot of anchor created podcasts have like less than three episodes, right? I mean, this part of this whole barrier to entry, right? Anchors doing some cool stuff, trying to make it easier for people to podcast, but it also gives you a good chance to sort of start and not continue. I don't know, Ross, what do you think of anchor? Well, I mean, I'd love to share and everybody's dislike of it in the podcast. I don't know if it's dislike. I mean, on this show, we've been cautious because in the beginning they had bad terms of service. I think they fixed that, right? Even if they said it was a misunderstanding, I think we've pushed them to fix that, which is great. And I think generally on the show, we like to see the innovation. We're just cautious with what they're doing with your, you just have to be careful because Dave, weren't they actually submitting shows to iTunes and you lose control of the show? Yeah, that's bad. They still do when you go in, and this is the part that I really hate. They're like, hey, right now, your show's only still up to go to anchor to submit it everywhere, click here. Then it says, in parentheses, recommended. And when you do that, it's like, hey, thanks so much. We're off to submit. And there's no winner that says, oh, by the way, in the future, when you wanna check your Apple stats, no dice because they now control your show. They don't own it, but they control it in Apple. So anyways, I interrupted, but we're cautious, but we're interested. We're definitely interested. I guess I was just gonna, I was gonna say that I haven't spent enough time looking at it to know why somebody would wanna do that. I know that it doesn't have the feel of a place of a more serious broadcaster would go to. But if it makes it easy for people to get started and people can monetize, but I'm a little skeptical about this monetization plan. I kind of agree with what Alex said. This makes sense for the platform, these ad insertions. If the platform can get millions and millions and hundreds of millions of users, it's great because every couple of dollars they can make by putting ads everywhere, they can get the numbers, right? By sharing it with somebody with 60 downloads and 6,000 downloads, whatever. But it isn't that much money for the actual podcaster that really makes any difference. So you really are better off, particularly if you have a niche area that isn't being served by a ton of podcasters to go ahead and find sponsors who are trying to make inroads into that niche and be a conduit for them to those listeners. I think there your value can be disproportionately high, but I think reading an ad for some brand who doesn't know who you are and where you are and what you're doing and who you're trying to reach isn't really necessary. Well, I mean, I'd hate to knock the whole thing, but it isn't necessarily, I see it a lot of value for either the sponsor or for the podcaster. What do you like for the, I mean, I don't, I guess I'd say smaller, someone who's not making, who's not doing massive numbers, but certainly has an audience that it sounds spammy to say it can be monetized, but someone who can monetize because they have a focused audience. What's your preferred model? Or do you get into that at all? Yeah, I mean, I'm not necessarily monetizing my podcast. So if I'm reaching out to sponsors or whatever, it's more because of my live streaming and then the podcast is an add-on. By the way, I'm gonna make a podcast episode out of this and then it'll be distributed again to all the channels. Do you see more interest in the live stream? I mean, you're reaching out probably, it's sort of your choosing who would be interested. That's kind of where I reach out, but I'm reaching out to companies that are specifically trying to get in front of live streamers. So companies that make equipment for live streaming. Makes sense, you're teaching for live streaming. Yeah, so they value that niche audience, but they're not at all looking at sort of the podcast model. They're looking at, you know, me as talent more, like can I go out to an event and cover an event for them? Can I roll model their equipment so they can use that in a video and share that elsewhere? Things like that are more what they're looking for. Yeah, awesome. Will, let's go back to that lead-off title story and I brought this up by a title that you spent how much on podcast gear because I won't even mention who because I don't know that I necessarily care for the person but the YouTuber or a YouTuber, I just saw a video, YouTuber spent $90,000 on their podcast studio and they're a huge YouTuber. They obviously make the money, but you know, is this necessary? I mean, you can do, you know, get yourself a Q2U and at least you can start that way and they have multiple people and it's also video. They're YouTube, so they're also gonna do the video thing. So you need a little bit more in that, but it looked to me that most of that money was spent on, you know, like the set itself, total just making it look like your typical sort of streamer type set, you know, lots of lights, colored lights and they had all the acoustic stuff. So, you know, I think it's more made for video itself and I'm sure the cameras are expensive, but they have SM7Bs and they're on like $20 tabletop stands. So, and I just thought that was, it obviously was a sort of a click baity title, but it was really just an excuse for me to talk about gear because that's always fun. And I know with the round table that we have, Alex being the first invited tonight that he has quite a studio there. So I am just curious, you know, I know how I started relatively cheaply. Alex, did you start by, I mean, so Alex is a special kind of gear junkie. He doesn't just buy the stuff, he takes it all apart and puts better parts in it, I think. At least that's what I see. Like I like to follow my Instagram. Yes, for sure. Yeah. So, did you buy it all? And if you're watching the video, you can see he's got a giant board, he's got the condenser, Mike sounds great. Actually like an Annoyment or something. Yeah, it's a TLM 103. So he's got the good stuff. You didn't buy a $40 microphone. Did you start that way? Yeah, I, you know, like many podcasters, I started out, initially, I actually, I didn't have my own show. I started just as being a guest on other people's podcasts. And so like many people, I started out on a blue Yeti microphone, which quickly, I quickly outgrew that. I don't recommend that as a microphone for beginners because there are better choices now. But, you know, like many people, you know, I wanted to spend as little money as possible because I wasn't, it wasn't a full-time thing. It was, and still, in many ways now, it was a hobby. But, you know, this was by no means something I, you know, cobbled together overnight. It was definitely, you know, there were staged upgrades and that's usually how a lot of people work. Yeah, for sure. Ross, you got the SSM-7B. It's not a cheap entry-level microphone stuck on a boom arm there. Is that how you started or did you, what did you start with? So I started with the Samsung Q2U. And I had the $13 boom arm from newer and about a $2 foam windscreen. Now, Samsung actually gives you the foam windscreen if you buy it. But that's what I recommend to everybody who's starting out podcasting or live streaming and, you know, doesn't already have a lot of gear or is scared of gear or whatever that, you know, let your content get ahead of your gear. When people put the gear ahead of their content, I feel like they're setting themselves up for a lot of unnecessary pressure and disappointment. Like, if you go out and you spend $10,000 on a studio and gear and all this stuff before you've really kind of found your voice, that's putting a ton of pressure on you. I mean, that's kind of like, you know, then you do your first show and it really isn't that good because nobody's first show was ever really that good and you're sort of like, oh my God, I just spent $10,000 and told everybody I was a podcaster and what do I have the show for? I think it puts a lot of pressure. Get the gear when you're ready for it. When your content is really good and then you're like, okay, really, I'm at a point now where I could sound a little bit better because, you know, spending $1,000 doesn't make you $1,000 better. I mean, it makes you $50 better here, $20 better there, maybe $100 or $200 better somewhere else. So I did almost everything with the Samson Q2U for a couple of years and then I decided it was time to upgrade and, you know, once you upgrade in one area, then you have to upgrade a bunch of other parts to go with it because the move, of course, from a USB mic to an XLR mic alone and then either a CloudLifter or a much better mixer or what have you, it's a lot of different parts that then come into it. Yeah, that's the irony is that it's, as you get better gear, it tends to cost more because you do have to support it with other stuff. I mean, the SM7Bs that we're on are notorious for being low output microphones and you need either a good preamp. And I'll say something like a Scarlet can support it, but in general, you end up spending even more money and it is a law of diminishing returns. Like things get a little bit better. I mean, most people are not going to know the difference between your Q2U and I say most people, most of your audience and the $40 setup that you have with USB mic versus your $3,000 setup. Most people, we do it a lot of times for ourselves. Sometimes we do it for the environment that we're in. You might have spent some extra money first. You see Alex has a treatment on his walls. Everybody should get one of these if they have a low up dynamic mic and a crappy preamp, a Triton Audio Fethead. Yeah, everyone likes to talk about the Cloudlifter and I love the Fethead. It's the same thing, but better in my opinion. Better because one cable, not two, but anyways. I do love a Fethead, that can help. But yeah, we do a lot of it I think for ourselves. But you know, one thing I do like is that when I buy what I would say gear that I know is proven. I know then if something's wrong, it's not the gear. It's either my knowledge and how to use it or my content. I do like removing a variable that I feel like can be controlled. It's like I can have audio that doesn't have hiss in it if I know what I'm doing and my gear doesn't create doesn't create that issue. So small things like that. I do love removing that and then working on the other parts that still suck, which could be presentation or something else. But you know, when, I guess that's when do you make that step up and you go from, you know, Alex, I think you probably do podcasts with more than one people. One, one, more than one person. So that usually requires different gear. I mean, in theory, you can do two USB mics on a computer. It's not usually a good idea. No, no, yeah. I mean, once you start getting, I mean, this is the thing. I talked to a lot of people that are just setting up for the first time and they always ask the same questions. Like I'm sure, you know, all of you get this question is, you know, what kind of mics do I get to a USB or XLR? What kind of interface do I get? Do I need a mixer? All that with multi-person setups and especially video, which is a whole another ball of wax. Everyone wants to do video. I know. They want to start there. They want to launch three podcasts and do video with live streaming, Ross. They want to do it. So like you guys, master audio first. Yeah. I mean, you know, more power to you if you want to start doing video, if you have that capability, if you have the money to invest to make it look good. I don't, I can't speak for anybody else, but I know for me, I'm particularly picky about the quality and that's only something that we recently started doing in the last month or so with hologram radio, we started live streaming, and it's not perfect yet, but yeah, I would tend to agree that you should try to master one thing and get your practice and make sure that you actually sound good in front of a microphone that you can carry a conversation, that you sound confident and make sure you get those basic skills as an announcer down, right? But to the question about multiple guests, yes, it does add complexity to it. I actually, you know, I know the SM7B, obviously we've got several people here using those microphones. I love those microphones because they're extremely versatile. It's kind of a do-no-harm, all-purpose microphone, but I have actually, and I used to use those for my guest mics. I've now switched to the Audio Technica BP40s because of the tighter cardioid pattern. So I find it actually, especially when people are closer to together, it actually, you get less mic bleed because of the tighter polar pattern, so. Check. Check, one, two. There he is. We hear him. We hear Daniel. What's up, Daniel? That check was not supposed to go to you. That's all right. It was supposed to go to my bank. Yeah, I'm just talking for a $30 microphone going into a $900 interface. You do? Yeah. That's great. And you sound wonderful. So it must be the interface. Alex, gosh, I forgot what I was gonna, that reminded me of, but yeah, you know, I'm using the SM7B now, but I actually, there's a microphone back there. It's sort of in the dark and it is a condenser shotgun microphone. And I think that I actually sound best on that microphone, but this is one, like I said, I've wanted, I'm testing it out right now. You do have to put your voice through different microphones. That could be a hard thing to do. We tell people that all the time, but where the heck do you do that? I mean, if you go to a podcast conference, like podcast movement, like Chris Curran usually sets up a cool booth where you have the opportunity to do that and hear yourself in different microphones. I don't know if you can go into like a guitar center and plug in a recorder. I think it's easier than you think. I don't know about down in the States at guitar center, but I know in Canada, the largest music retailer store in Canada is called Long & McQuaid and they have a rentals department and you can rent an SM7B. You can rent almost any type of microphone that you want, audio technicas, condenser microphones from pretty much every manufacturer. So you can actually go there, you know, pay, I don't know, is it 10 bucks or something to rent a microphone for a day? Just rent a bunch of them. I imagine a lot of music stores do this. So you should find out if there's a rentals department and just rent these microphones before you commit because just because everybody uses an SM7B doesn't mean it's the right microphone for your voice. You really won't know until you actually try them. I mean, with you Ray, I mean, you used to use a PR40, how PR40, right? And you switched. So there were obvious reasons why you chose that and it is a personal preference. Yeah, for sure. And I would say you probably will evolve. Like I have evolved over time whereas, you know, you start with one mic, think you like how you sound and then eventually, you know, everyone in podcasting pretty much hates the sound of their own voice when they start a lot of people and you may compensate that for that. The high PR40 sort of did that but then it became a little too artificial for my personal taste. So I went looking for something else. So, you know, it's an evolution. I say buy something, you know, like the Samsung Q2U or the ATR 2100, these are good microphones. You're going to sound good. Your audio quality is going to be good. And then you can go, having that in your back pocket or a good place to start because, you know, like Ross said, in the beginning, your other stuff might suck but what's nice about making sure you at least have a minimal level is you don't want to go back to your episode one and just cringe because it sounds terrible. I agree. There is absolutely a minimum baseline. You don't have to spend a ton of money but I think there is a minimum baseline for quality. There's got to be a balance between the quality of the sound and the content too. Especially these days. That's a great, lots of great, like podcasts like, hey, this person know what they're talking about. I believe them. The content sounds great but it sounds like they're talking in a bathroom. I got to shut it off. I'm sorry. Right, yeah. And I think we are really preaching to the choir with this audience. This audience, like I said, gear conversations are usually favorable. People like that. And I think most people here understand that but not everyone. And sometimes people, they still wonder. I mean, when your audio is not where you want it to be which is most podcasters, you're always working on it. You always question these things. Like, is it the microphone? Do I need a better preamp? Is that fed head? Is that gonna make the difference? So you do question. So it's good to know what they actually do. I would say, gosh, maybe, feels like 70, 80% of the whole thing is like the environment you're recording in. I mean, it's so important to have a space to record in that doesn't create all these issues that you're hearing that you think is being created by gear. And make sure you're not using the camera phone or the camera microphone, which I'm doing right now. Like, is there really a difference? No difference. You sound amazing. Now, Alex, you mentioned that you just recently got into live streaming since Ross is here and that's his name. I'm curious, why did you guys choose to go live streaming? Because, I mean, for us, it's, well, for one, the round table's live stream and it's video, but this is the easiest way to do that. And it's really just a way for us to connect with people remotely. It makes it super easier to record these. So it's less about the live, even though the chat is awesome. It's less about video and it's just about connecting. But I'm wondering why did you guys decide recently to go live streaming? For me, it's because I feel like we're trying to, obviously, like any podcaster. You want to broaden your reach as much as possible. And there's a whole untapped audience for us on YouTube. Obviously, you know, there's tons of podcasts that have become really popular on YouTube. Is that talking head, though? I mean, do you find that that is... We've seen very success with that. Like, do people want to watch talking head video? Podcast on YouTube, essentially. What do you mean by talking head? Yes, what we're doing here with just something that it could be easily consumed. I don't need video to consume this. The type of video, I mean, I don't watch a ton of video podcasts, but the ones that I do enjoy are the ones where... I think, like, I want to see a little bit more than somebody's, just like a headshot, right? I want to see a bit of a set. So, because I think video can create a whole level. You know, if radio slash podcasting audio only is, theater of the mind video is a whole different medium. And I think creating a... You can create a level of intimacy that just isn't there, too, with audio. It's different. It's not better. It's just different. So, like, for example, like, I mean, because I've built this podcast studio in my one-bedroom apartment. So I've got... I think you have about $80,000 to go based on what I'm seeing on YouTube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, I have a couch and one of the other podcasts that I do, you know, with her, which is co-hosted by two people, they sit on the couch and I have a camera there facing them. So there's a level of intimacy because they're in close proximity with each other. Right, so you get to see what they look like. They're hanging out on the couch. It's a relaxed environment. You know, and I just think, I think there's something to that as well. And I think people like to see that. I mean, there's a reason why people watch Twitter podcasts or watch Joe Rogan or any one of those, you know, popular podcasts, so. Very cool. Hey, Ross, what would you say to a podcaster who, you know, everyone wants the live stream. They want to do everything when they start, as we mentioned. Do you recommend live streaming? Are you a live streamer before a podcaster? Did you start there? I came from working on air and radio. And so live streaming, well, first I found a platform called Blab that doesn't exist anymore. We miss Blab. And so that was my entry to any sort of online broadcasting. Cool. And so a webcam was kind of a necessity to participate for the most part in that platform. Otherwise, I may not have started because I really almost never used my webcam before that. But for me, coming from live radio, live streaming was in many ways, I felt more similar than podcasting because you have an audience that's coming and going and the need to reset and have a topic that, you know, you're talking about now, but something you want to promote. Whereas podcasting pretty much everybody starts at the beginning and listens, you know, in a linear fashion. So it's a little bit, to me, it was more similar to radio and I got used to the live chat and all that kind of stuff. But I don't think that every broadcast is better live. I mean, I think some content, particularly very short form content, if it's like news updates and things like that, it's more important to keep it tight and get it right than it is to be able to go live because, you know, 90% of the people are gonna listen to something like that or even watch it if you do a video version of it on the replay, so to speak, or on demand, not really to be there to catch you, read two minutes of news at 7.30 in the morning. I mean, that's the advantage of online content is it's there on demand. So I think you have to think about who your audience is and, you know, whether your content really fits live or not. But for what we're doing like this, I think having a live chat enhances the process. Things come up in the chat that maybe, you know, we weren't thinking of or that takes us in another direction or adds depth or just brings in a question that sparks the panel. So that's what I love about live streaming. But it is different doing this live versus recording without an audience and where you know everybody's just going for that linear path is very, very different experience. Yeah, does everyone here do live? Dave, you do live. Daniel used to do a lot of live. Daniel, I guess, why'd you get out of live? Well, we did live for different shows. So to explain, I had two entertainment focused shows, a comedy show and the TV show fan podcast. And then I have the audacity to podcast, which is more educational and really solo presentation. For the entertainment focused shows, doing it live made a lot of sense. And we did that until the very end and people always showed up for that, especially when we recorded right after the TV show aired because since we're in Eastern time, that means the TV shows air at the same time in two time zones, when they say eight slash seven central. Well, if you're in central or Eastern time, guess what, you get to share your viewing time with half the US. So the engagement was great. And because we were discussing things, we were having a round table format for our discussions. The audience would often bring up stuff that we hadn't considered, or we could throw a question out to the audience as we're running our discussion, not waiting, not just like, hey, Jonathan, tell me what microphone you use and then just waiting around for the answer. But we could throw the question out, then discuss and then bring in the response. And it made for a better podcast and it got the community involved. And I think that's why they showed up is because they enjoyed being part of it, plus because we edit, they also got to see some of our hilarious mistakes too. So they felt like they were part of the in-crowd to get to see our horrible mistakes sometimes. Is it, we know that live streaming tends to skew for the super fan or the super user, whatever you want to call them, the super engaged audience. It's not something that everyone can show up for. I mean, the round table, unfortunately is not as, I wanted to put it on different days, different times, but this is what has worked for at least the last year. Hopefully we'll get to move it around. But, you know, as I said here for us, it's really kind of a platform for us to use to record, even though I record it in the studio. So it's less about, you know, it's not that hard to do with Hangouts. Is it worth, Dave, you do ask the podcast coach. So I mean, that is, that kind of builds in the live to the show, right? Yeah, I mean, I always go out and try to find something that's not the same old, same old questions. So I have questions to answer before we even go live. And then the chat room is a little bit. How many people show up for that on average? On average, somewhere between 20 and 30. And what do you think the podcast version gets listener wise? Oh, it's hundreds, right? So is it worth it? Why do you do it? I do. You have to be, you know, you've got to be on camera or is that, is that video? It's video. Yeah. There was one time where something was not agreeing with me and that was going to be an interesting show. I just told my co-host, I'm like, if you just see me get up and leave, it's yours. Pick a topic and go, cause I'm going to go. So that's always a weird thing. Cause you do have to find a time that you do that consistently. It's like for me, it's Saturday, 1030 in the morning. I did it as it was just going to be a test. And then people just said, well, no, keep it going. So, yeah, so we do that. And then yeah, so it's like, I think the last time I checked, it was like maybe 4% of my audience is, you know, they're live. So, and that's fine though. It's great to get that instant feedback. That's the one thing that that is, that's, I think that's probably why. Cause I want instant feedback. A lot of times I will throw an idea out that I'm thinking of using for the school of podcasting on Monday. So to get that instant feedback from even a small percentage of my audience gives me an idea of whether or not this is something they want to hear. And I consider it, I'm one of his loyal audience members. I show up every Saturday morning to watch and participate in the chat when I can, because it's my Saturday morning cartoons. And the reason why I like to go as an audience member is because Dave and Jim are engaging in their conversation. They're not just presenting to me. And that's why I don't, I stopped doing the audacity to podcast live, by the way, is because I realized I'm just monologuing here. There's not much engagement. But so they are engaging with the live audience, plus everyone else who's there, just like everyone who's in our chat room right now is very engaging and fun to connect with. So it's a, it's a community event, not just a broadcast event. Yeah, there are times when I'll go back and look at the chat and they've had their own show going on. It's just, they're on a whole other subject that we're talking about. They're swapping turkey recipes in the chat room while we're talking about whatever microphones or hosting or whatever. Yeah, and I mean, for this, for this particular show, it is about connecting the podcast space, the community for me. I mean, introducing new podcasts and podcasters, giving voice to someone doesn't have a show about podcasting, but that happens in the chat all the time. And I mean, even Dave will pull on guests for first interviews on his own show. Dave, I'm curious, are you the Elmer Fudd of Daniel's Saturday morning cartoons? You don't have to answer, that's a throwback to a pre-show joke. That's even more of a daffy duck. I think it was, yeah. All right, so, hey, speaking of, this sort of this theme of this starting a podcast with much more than you need, whether that's more gear than you need, more on your plate, like I'm gonna be a daily podcast that does video and live streams. I will say that the podcasters studio back in 2009 started off as a live show. You can still hear them, they're terrible. And rolling in music live and everything and meaning to take questions from Twitter hence my at podcast helper. Guess what? Nobody asks questions when you're a new podcast and a new person on Twitter and you're just like ask me questions when you don't have an audience. So live, maybe not always the best thing to start when you are right at the beginning but Alex, you have on here multi-cam video podcast. So did audio podcast kill the video podcast star? I guess it's because video podcast in the beginning, I mean, they were big but they also started before big, before YouTube and then YouTube sort of crushed that but audio is easier to consume so I think that's why it grew. But this multi-cam video podcast, you're saying your takeaway here is underestimating additional cost and complexity of getting it right and making it look good. So a lot of people do- Buy standards. Yeah, exactly. I mean, a lot of people want to start with they want to do all these things at once. It's a lot easier when you're just one person, right? In a bedroom. But as soon as you start to add two, three, four people switching camera angles, additional software, it gets more expensive because you need obviously to, you need to purchase multiple cameras. It's not really feasible to use one. If you really want to cheaply get away, I guess you could try to do a wide angle shot if that's even possible. I don't like that. You know, when I watch professionally cut together shows like I've been listening to Howard Stern for a while and I watch his video interviews on Sirius and I see the way that show looks. I'm like, that's what I'm trying. That's what I want my show to look like. And they've got obviously a dedicated person cutting between angles and their cameras are much more expensive than mine but still, I mean, I can, that's, you know I want to strive for a certain level of quality but it does get more expensive and it gets more complicated. The biggest issue that I ran into was underestimating how much processing power that you need to transcode video especially when you get into stuff like 1080p, multiple cameras. I bought this really crappy $150 like mini PC with an atom CPU and that cannot do anything, right? That just, it's not short of like that is just my Skype box now because it can't do anything with video. So, you know, I had to end up using I really wanted to have a dedicated computer to run OBS studio and have everything hooked up to that but I ended up just out of necessity I ended up hooking everything up to my Mac Pro. I've got a 12 core Mac Pro that handles things no problem. So I can switch between between my cameras on my Mac Pro. I'm not a big fan of these Logitech cameras. I think they're overrated personally. I mean, I'm using one now but I found out that with a third party plug-in and a $25 iPhone app called iOS, I think it's called iOS camera or OBS iOS camera, something like that. It's $25 and what it allows you to do is use any iPhone either through USB which is the lowest latency connection possible or through wireless using the NDI protocol which was developed by New Tech with the guys that do the TriCaster, that's them. And it allows you to use your iPhone as an additional camera and OBS sees that. So I have a couple of iPhones that I prefer to use. So I will use those as my cameras for the video and switch between those and that's working pretty well so far. Yeah. I mean, you know, most of us you're seeing C920s on this show but and it's how you use it, I think but it's still a webcam. In fact, Cam Link, I don't know if I'm familiar with them they do HDMI to USB. They just, I went to go buy the, I looked for a holiday deal I went to go buy the 1080 version which was the only version they had and it literally been discontinued like the next day. I looked at the day before, I was like, ah, I got that on my browser and then the next day it's like discontinued. So what the heck's going on? They came out the 4K version and it's the same price. So I'm gonna buy one of those. You'll see that I'm gonna probably start streaming with my Sony, that's really nice but you know, with the live stream you can definitely hook up some nicer cameras but again, some good lighting, a little bit of set design if you wanna call it that. Daniel certainly knows about good lighting. Yeah, that's something. I would say the space he's in now is not lit compared to the way his studio is lit and it's noticeable. I mean, it even makes the cam sharper. It does a lot for you. So lighting is hugely important to, that's another element of doing a video podcast. It's not just the gear, it's everything around it. You talked about, I talked about the $90,000 set and how that was mostly was set design and you talked about having good set design too. And again, with Stern, a lot of that too is it all just looks good, right? Yeah, with lighting, that's another thing that, other than the LED track lighting that I have, I did buy one, I went to like a local photography store and I bought one of those like big LED lights. So I've got one of those. I need to buy another one cause this is a big room. That helped a lot. One thing I didn't realize and I'm streaming at 1080p 30 frames per second which I'm happy with because I don't, you know, 60 frame rates per second looks a tiny bit smoother but it's not like there's a ton of motion going on. So I felt like, well, I don't, it's a lot more processing power. It's a lot more bandwidth, not just for me but I worry more about the listeners consuming 60 frame rate per second video. So I felt like 30 frames is fine but one of the things I noticed after I looked into it, 60 frame rate per second video needs a lot more lighting. Do you guys, if you guys looked into this at all cause I, this is totally new for me because I noticed when I set my Logitech camera to 60 frame rates per second it looked really bad. It's the shutter speed. So when you set it to 60 frames it then changes itself to be 120, one over 120 on the shutter speed. So you're going to get a, it's the 180 degree shutter rule. So when you're doing 30 you only have to shoot your shutter is at doing 60. So you're getting more light into the camera. That's what's going on. That's why slow motion video gets tricky because you're doing 120 frames and you're 240 on your shutter speeds. You cannot do slow motion. Take your iPhone and do it slow motion. I think does 240 frames a second. Try doing that even at dusk and see what the image quality looks like. Not so good, not so good. But hey, Ross, do you, what's your typical live production? Is it multiple cameras? Are you doing one camera? My shows that are interview shows which have been the bulk of what I've done. Generally, my guest is remote. If I'm doing a talk show kind of set up. And so I'm using a platform like, I generally use BeLive if I go live on Facebook which just makes it easy to bring the guest on. And so right now I'm using the Logitech C922. I do have a camcorder I may start to use and a little action cam or whatever. But I'm really liking Alex's, by the way. I'm really liking Alex's sort of radio simulcast on TV look where he's not trying to have the camera right in front of him as though he's a talking head on the news. But he's got it kind of looking in on the set. It is very Howard Stern and the radio simulcast style. But for me, if I produce myself and I use something like Wirecast or, which is similar to say using something like OBS, it's a question of how much work you want to do while you're also hosting the show, paying attention to the chat and all that kind of stuff. So BeLive makes it simple to do a little bit of switching and add some text and so forth without, you know, taking up all your time. And that's why I use that. If I'm producing something to record, I actually will use Wirecast as a switcher even though I'm not streaming it because it's just, you know, really well put together as a software package for that kind of switching. But for Live, I want to focus on the audience and the engagement and all that kind of stuff and the guests. So that's why I use something like BeLive for that. But I haven't done a lot with multi-camera or in studio guests or anything like that. Even if I do interviews on location, it's taking like a camcorder and it's using a handheld mic with the Mixpre3, something like that. And then using something like the LiveU Solo to stream it which is a hardware encoder that bonds multiple cell connections. So that's how I would do it from an event if I were live streaming an interview. But as far as multi-camera, that isn't something I've done very much. Yeah, I've definitely lugged lots of gear to locations to do multi-cam live stuff. And I'm still gonna do it. I think recently Sling Studio, which is different than Sling TV, I think, they came out with a really nice wireless option. I'm hoping to test that. So they've made it more friendly to have multiple cameras and stuff like that. But you know, it's all tech. You have to test it out. Sometimes it sounds better than it actually works. And Live is tricky, right? It always comes down to your pipe. Like how's the internet? I mean, I've done, we've done live streaming for so many years at work. And I mean, it literally felt like, you know, bubblegum and sticks, like putting together a Volkswagen. Like it just, you just, we had ethernet double adapters and all kinds of crazy stuff going into laptops. And you're just hoping the internet would hold. I mean, even here, we'll get glitches, but if you come and watch the round table, you see those happen all the time. That's the live streaming. Like Daniel said, some people sometimes getting to see how the sausage is made is sometimes part of the fun. But let's see, anyone live streaming audio only? Is anyone still doing that? Dave, do you cut out? Everyone cut out of that game? Yeah, I started that. Does Mixer still do that? Does Mixer still do this? Mixer still doesn't. I still, it's weird. I still get like 10 people that listen Saturday. And I think half that's because I turn it on early and you can hear us. But you do it. Yeah, I do it. Partly because Jason Bryant is one of my listeners. He's in the chat. Yeah. And he's always in like Kazakhstan or something. And we can't get enough bandwidth to do the video. So he'll listen on Mixer. Dave actually serves the squeaky wheel. So we're talking about this. I do. And but it's like, I still get like 10 people that are on that. And that's the only thing I can think of is they. So you're still using Mixer for that? Yeah, I kicked that off early and then. How are they surviving? Because I really like the platform. But is there you're not? I bet you're on a free version. No, I was. And then I wanted to forget what I wanted. I'm like, well, I'm using your service. I'm like this 12 bucks a month. It's nothing that crazy. No, good. Well, says Dave, I'm sure you have so many five, yeah, seven and $12 a month things you subscribe to. By the way, you know, the other thing I wanted to say, do you have any idea how frustratingly difficult it is to have to change camera angles when you're also the host is monitoring levels and you're fading music in and out. It's like that just adds a whole another level of annoyance to the whole process. It's a literal dance. Like you have to be like that stuff. That's what I'm saying. If you want to start there and it is hard and your content will suffer. If you're it'll. So the one time I was testing be live.tv, which is actually a really cool program just for whatever reasons does not work on my computer. And Jim was like, OK, you're you're making everyone nauseous because I was just switching back and forth and pinning things to the chat. And it was like for me being somewhat ADD, it was like, oh, look at all the buttons I can push. And meanwhile, I'm supposed to be talking about a topic and I'm all over the place. So yeah, I definitely agree that, you know, this was the things were somewhere down the road. You can get someone to play producer and sit there and switch cameras for you and all that, you know, go Joe Rogan. That'd be awesome. But when you're first starting off, a lot of times you are the engineer and the host and the. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a lot of fun. Like I have done produce only for another show before. And I mean, I do it for work. And it's it's that's actually a fun. You can learn a lot by just sitting behind. You know, road just came out with this new. Yeah, we should talk about that. Well, and so talking about the difficulty of doing all that stuff yourself, you know, there's also the live to hard drive production, right? Where you roll in your music, you talk, but there's little room for air if that is mixed, right? If you're only recording to a mix. And so the real let down of this road. What is it called? I'm totally roadcaster. Roadcaster, yeah. It's a mixer, lets you do Skype calls. Does the mix minus for you and and brings it. It's got the sound effects pad, things people always want to do. Like, how do I bring in sound effects? I think the most exciting thing is the Apex processing, it is looking like a lot of people don't realize like because I follow this stuff like like Apex is really well known in the pro audio world and broadcast. Dave, are you on that right now? I've seen radio stations with their gear. So the fact that they include this in a six hundred dollar package is impressive. But that's what got me. Yeah, my Apex, I blew the tube. I've just got to replace the tube. Well, Alex, you do that for you, but six hundred dollar. He'll enjoy it. You might do it for six hundred dollars for a non multi track device is all is a non starter for me. But it doesn't mean it depends on your product. Do we know? Yes. Sure. Yes. Well, they said that. They said it wasn't stereo. Did they specifically say it is not multi track? It is only stereo. They said I saw the tweet. They said it was never designed to be a multi channel interface. I mean, come on, can you go multi track at least to the give me some discreet channels on the SD card? Come on, guys, for six hundred dollars. No, that's way too much. Now, if it was multi track for six hundred dollars, that would be serious. I get why people want that. I totally understand if you're like Ray was saying, it depends on your workflow. If you are producing, let's say, and let's say an audio only podcast, something like criminal, right, where it's a narrative style, you know, podcast, you've got multiple people you want to extremely tightly edited. You want ISO tracks on each. I get that. But what a lot of people also I don't know if they're overlooking it, but like in the broadcast slash radio world, even the most expensive broadcast radio consoles, I've never used one that has had a multi channel interface. They all have USB recording, but it's always recording to a two track stereo to the computer. And the reason for that is because again, goes back to workflow. They're still in the we are live mindset. And I think to road to road's credit. I mean, you know, they they design this, I think, more as a live podcasting. We're going to include all the processing. And I think we're they haven't really articulated it really well. But I think what they're trying to say is, look, we've included all of this processing to reduce the amount of post-production work involved, because a lot of the post-production work involved is not just editing out OMS and OMS, it's actually removing mic bleed, right? Cross talk, all that sort of stuff. And with the effects processing, you've got a you've got an expander gate on it, right? So it should remove in a multi host environment. It should remove a lot of that that noise from, you know, breathe, someone's breathing on the microphone, what not, that type of stuff. So in theory, if you're in a live sort of workflow, live broadcasting, live podcasting and you don't really need to edit it a lot, it might not be that big of a deal for some people. Yeah. And I think, again, a lot of people could use it that way. And it is that they do really pitch it, like sort of take it out and record a podcast. Like, you know, I mean, well, I don't know if it's really pitched that way. In fact, I don't even know how much of the marketing is coming from them versus everything I'm seeing says this is it. This is the be all and all of podcast solutions. And I guess my biggest problem is that at that price range, I can get almost the same thing and get more. I get multi channel to the I mean, the L 12 is the same price. And what it well, I mean, the integration of the mix minus to the smart, that that thing's as interesting to me. That's nice. It is. It's again, making it easier. So again, it just depends on who you are and what you're doing, right? You do don't buy this thing because you've heard this is this is it. This is the one you really have to know what you're doing. And I mean, what you're what your workflow is going to be and if this fits you or not. Yeah, that's all I ask them is and they haven't answered me on this, but I'm curious if they've included any other broadcast specific features like in radio, some of the features on on radio consoles that are really nice are things like when you I know you've you've talked about this before, Ray. But like when I mute a channel on my mic, I wanted to actually mute what is being going what is going out to the USB bus. Right. And every console on the market does not do that. I'm still waiting for somebody to solve that problem in the sort of bridging that gap between really crazy expensive radio consoles and sort of pro Sumer level consoles, because I think a lot of podcasters want those features. I want to be able to actually mute my voice, what's going out to the recording. And then the other thing is like on a lot of radio consoles, if I've got a pair of control room monitors connected to it on a radio console, if I turn if I turn on my mic, those control room monitors get automatically muted, like really intelligent features like that. Nobody's doing that on a pro several pro Sumer level console. I would like to see that. So I don't know if this road console does that, but it would be nice if it did. I think we actually brought up Ross, you have this listed in your stories and I think this just came up organically. So I don't whatever you want to say. You want to say anything about it? I mean, are you excited about this? I'd love to play with it. I mean, I've asked road, it doesn't mean I'm not going to review it. Look and toy that I would love to play with. It looks beautiful. I would say that road makes good stuff and this thing does look really cool. And it and it looks easy to use. I mean, with those hotkeys, you can fire your sounders and your music and all that stuff, and it's got some processing and things like that. And taking calls, it makes easy. I guess what it really comes down to, because I think at the end of the day, it's it's about sound quality and not how much fun something is to play with or does it make a couple of features easier? And until we know and I haven't seen anything about how good the preamps are and how good the the analog to digital conversion is, those are the two elements that are really going to determine yeah, what your sound quality is. And until we know that, we don't know whether this is a fun thing to play with or whether this is really something that could rival like the mixed preline. And what I love about the mixed preline is it's professional audio gear at a consumer price. And I don't think that there's, you know, in road, match that adding features that are fun features. But at a lower price point, I just don't know if they can they don't have the history. I don't think of making great preamps or making, yeah, you know, great audio interfaces. I could be wrong, but I've never heard anybody say get the road, you know, for a preamp or for a C. I mean, all they've all they've done is they've published basic information about the pre saying their servo control that they have high gain, 60 dB of gain, which is which is good that it has 60 dB gain. But the problem is, again, you can't trust just the numbers because 60 dB of gain doesn't mean you're going to be able to use all of that without having a lot of noise coming from the head from the preamp. So we don't know until we can actually get our hands on it. But the other thing I was curious about with the with the mixed pre is that is that made by sound devices? It is. Is it they add maybe it was another similar device I saw in the market. But I thought sound devices added the Dugan auto mix feature in a firmware upgrade. Did that happen? The one of those it was either no devices or another company that added the Dugan auto mix zoom on the F eight in their up. They added auto mixing. I don't know if it's Dugan. I don't because I trust me. That was something I was very should say the work because they have to pay the licensing to get to get. But it's so good. It's so so unbelievably different, I feel, than most auto mixing features, which some are trying to solve that. And so I, you know what? Gosh, darn. I don't recall exactly the chat room is saying the F eight, the zoom F eight. It is F eight and the F eight and OK. Yeah. And I saw that the the Procaster has a ducking audio ducking feature. I don't know how much control over that setting it gives you. But at least that is that is a nice feature so that you can have like if you have a caller or maybe you have a co-host and you want to be the primary person where your voice is the loudest. At least you can duck the other person under your voice when they talk, try to talk over you. So that is a nice feature. It's this bad boy right here, the F eight, which was in a drawer. I bought this for a very specific reason. It has eight channels. That is not necessarily a thing you get with a lot of audio recorders and dual XLR combo jack inputs was I needed. And I have still not updated the software. So the auto mix is really cool, but from what I know of it. So Curtis Judd is an awesome YouTuber and he tests out all this stuff with audio recorders and audio and lighting in general. Yeah, he's great. He it's a very what I would call weak auto mix. It's very light to the point where it almost doesn't do much. So hopefully they'll make it in future updates. They'll make it so that you can actually adjust the parameters. Right now you can't. It's just you get what you get. So you get there's if anyone is, you know, unless you absolutely need faders on a console, the Berenger XR 18 interface has auto mix. Yeah, it has their own version of auto mix. Yeah, and you can actually totally control the way you know, and on who's the loudest and all that. So that's that's a nice affordable interface. If I mean, it has a ton of inputs, but still, yeah. And if somebody is new to auto mix, is that just like an authentic kind of built in thing where it just levels out everything? It's like you have a person actually pulling faders for you, except it's an algorithm. It's much more able to keep up. It's not guessing the way someone is producer is doing with their with their hands. It's a noise gate, but not like it's intelligent enough to reduce microphones that are not getting a signal. And so in theory, it should be transparent, like right? So you won't get all that bleed and you won't get all those issues. Although I have found it's funny because when I first discovered auto mix, I was super excited thinking that it would auto mix my that it would sort of apply to discrete channels and really it's auto mix. So I mean, it records to a mix. So if you are hoping that, you know, it's not going to go, it's going to be the mix you're going to come out with the goal is to come out with a finish product, I guess, so to speak, when you're done. Not something you're going to post process in terms of individual channel. You would do that on your own for individuals. So anyways, I was looking for a device that would do something like that, but to the individual channels, but I really just trying to save trying to get I was trying to get the advantage of getting extra work out of the device that I would have to do later or just use a multi track recording device and a phonic multi track. Yes, but a phonic multi track is amazing, except it's a sort of a sort of a sort of a gamble. It doesn't always work. So if you're an hour in, I have run into that, but they are significantly altering the multi track algorithms. So perhaps by the time someone is hearing this, those algorithms could be significantly changed. And it's gotten really good. And what I can what I can say that I didn't realize in beginning is that it does you can still get the discrete tracks out of it. So it'll do that. And so if there was a problem, you can go back in and fix it. I would think if you want to go back into all the multi tracks. So the alphonic obviously is just awesome. So another good, another good tool for podcasters to use. Let's see, we definitely got some good geekery, some good gear conversation. There are so many terms we've used tonight that I hope people are just like, what? And so they'll dive deep and be like, ask questions. We want that kind of engagement. But let's see, what else did we any other stories? Daniel, you had a story if you can hit on quick. We are over time. There is no overtime here. So if anyone does, it was what I'll say, because this is what we do in the post show, which is oftentimes the best roundtable happens after we stop pressing record. Some point we have to stop pressing record. But we're we're we're nerds for this stuff. We're going to talk about it for an hour afterwards. But actually, that's what we need to do. A Patreon where we record the after show and then release it. If you guys want that, let us know. Oh, it's not going to happen because it's more work. But let us know anyways, because I'd be curious. But that said, yeah, I hate when people say to our time to our time limits. But you I've asked the guest to be why everyone here is here out of their own time. So if you have to go, let us know. You can run away. We're going to keep going a little bit longer. So the. I just think the dramatic voice and so it begins. Music label makers are suing a podcast over copyright infringing tracks in their podcasts, in their YouTube channel and on their website. This is poker news and this got a lot of attention, especially recently near the end of November. But the story actually broke, I believe, first around November 19th. Ironically, from the site torrentfreak.com talking about copyright infringement and torrent for all the young kids. Torrent is the way that's what came after Napster. It's the way that your mom and dad used to steal music. Movies. Oh, that's genius. But so this is Universal Music Group, one of the largest music companies. And in this article, I really recommend you look at the torrentfreak link, which I believe we'll have in the show notes for this episode. Because and just, yeah, grasp the irony that they're talking about this and they're not like saying, oh, this is horrible, that this big companies suing the little guy who was just using music. No, they really make it sound like no, the little guy infringed on the copyright. They're guilty here. And so it embraced that irony. But in this article, they actually link to the PDF, the letter from Universal Music Group, which contains several exhibits of evidence against poker news and their podcast, as well as a list of a bunch of episodes that were infringing what music was being infringed. And I started trying to look through their website to find this because I wanted to hear how were they using the music because this I believe the first time a major record label is suing a podcaster in a big way like this for infringing on copyright. And I think they're wanting like millions of dollars of damage. I mean, once you get over like a thousand dollars, then it's all unaffordable at that point. They'll just pay pay with their square space money, right? No problem. Exactly. Any anchor will sponsor them, I'm sure they're they're charging one hundred and fifty thousand dollars per infringement. And that is normal in the pocket in the copyright infringement space, like to charge per like that. So yeah, four to six, forty six copyrighted songs, damages go well beyond six, six million dollars. So yeah, that is ridiculous. I mean, OK, with without question, you should not under any circumstances risk using copyrighted music, obviously, on your podcast. However, to to go after a small person, like a small independent podcaster, I don't see like, how's that person ever? How are they going to win that? How are they going to pay? Not they're not. It just they're not even going to go to court. You can't afford to go to court on something like that. I mean, that's the whole point. And it's it's the classic making it make an example out of them to scare everyone else, right? It's it's their form of deterrence. Napster did this and they were suing grandma's like, and that that's when I promptly left. All right. All right. If I ever tried it at all, doing grandma's for using Napster, just want to be clear there. Yes. Yeah, that's what I remember back then. It was Lars Ulrich, some of those people that were sued actually won. They didn't because, you know, they realized that it was just ridiculous to go after an individual, you know, wanting to deal with your failing business model first, instead of going after a mom that downloaded a song. And yeah, and the situation was different back then. It was one person basically stealing a song or an album or several albums. This is someone using the music without a license to use it. I didn't steal it. I already owned it. I just wanted it digitally. Yeah, same. So allegedly. They're probably going to settle out of court, but it's still going to cost a lot. And poker news is not a tiny little guy network. Yeah, I was going to say. They label themselves as the largest website for poker news and poker information. And looking at their site, it seems pretty easy to believe that they are the largest. So it's possible that they are. So poker is big company going after another company. Now, if you were warned three years ago, wouldn't you maybe heed that warning knowing that the music industry doesn't play with this kind of stuff? You need to explain that. Yes, so three years ago, they were they were told basically that they were using copyrighted music and asked to stop. So it isn't that this came out of the blue. They had three years from the first time that they were warned about this to get there to get to get it straight. And they didn't do it. Oh, I wasn't aware of that. I don't know, you know, I, you know, Daniel talked about looking up. I don't know what role the music plays. I mean, they think that that without using copyrighted music, nobody would be interested in poker. I mean, I can't believe if they're a successful website and podcast and all that they would put themselves at risk like this. I mean, I'm not I'm not apologizing for, you know, the music industry for, you know, garnering more bad will amongst people already are frustrated with, you know, with them. But I just can't understand why you wouldn't. I mean, I would I would wipe everything off my hard drive and, you know, shut down for a week until I made sure that nothing was and I don't know. The opportunity was there to me because there's so there is so much copyright royalty free music out there. Yes, there's some of its junk, some of it's good. A lot of it you have to pay for. But it's it's worth it. Why? Why would you take the risk? Every podcaster wants to do this when they start. They want their favorite ACDC song, right? Dave, I mean, like working radio. Go to I think a lot of people. I think a lot of people, they A, believe the myth, they think they can use that 17 seconds. They're long and B, they just a lot of its ignorance. But at this point, it's hard to be ignorant, especially with YouTube. YouTube has the algorithm. It picks you picks you off. You know, I love the way that YouTube deals with this, because if you do use it, they'll they'll deem you cannot earn money on that on that video anymore if you keep it in. And instead, that money that is earned goes to the copyright holder. I love I love that because it's like, hey, if you're if you insist on keeping this in, well, you can't make money from it. But the other person, the person who owns it can. So, you know, that hasn't come to podcasting. Algorithms haven't come to podcasting yet. But podcasters are going to start getting picked off left and right out of Apple when those algorithms hit the store to happen. It's OK like the first podcast. I would say the first 10 episodes of Mark Marron's WTF. He used a song from AC DC called Live Wire, you know, that eventually somebody made that weird little theme song he has or whatever. But yeah, I'll be understood to see because I mean, the original music podcaster Michael Butler, the rock and roll geek show is still playing. Like, he's actually like he had an Australian band that now tours the U.S. because he played them on his show. Like he actually has, in some cases, labels giving him like here, play our music, even though it's illegal. Well, yeah, you need a license if you're going to play music. And you get the mind music. No, a lot of times an artist doesn't even have the ability to give you permission. Right. But if they do, if they own the right to do it. Rarely these days, every piece of music is automatically copyrighted. So it's not a matter of saying, well, there's no copyright notice on this, so it's OK to use everything's copyrighted. There are some in a way, gray areas where the nature of the use can give you a defense when you're taken to court over something like. And in such could be the case in Michael Butler's case is that he is promoting the music. He's talking about the music. He's reviewing the music. He's analyzing it. He's commenting on it. He's critiquing it. But in the case of poker news and the article even points this out, as well as the letter from the company, it says that the way that poker news was using the music was to enhance the experience of their podcasts. So basically they were using it. And again, I tried to look, but I couldn't find. I could find the posts for some of these episodes, but the YouTube videos were taken down. The media files were taken offline from Podbean. And I don't know how much of this is a DMCA take now notice to the hosting companies or if it's the poker news going through and just taking everything offline that was listed on this. So I couldn't find an exact example, but even just looking at the list of songs, it's not like they use the same song over and over and over as their theme song. They used a bunch of different songs. So I think it was just this is a song that resonates with us for some particular reason or this is a song we want to play for a portion. So that's why in their minds, I think why they're picking a pop culture song is it's because it's something they relate to their audience would relate to, but it's still copyright infringement if they don't have a license. And because they weren't even probably critiquing it. They're a poker podcast. They're not a rock and roll podcast. Their use was clearly a violation. And this, I think that the biggest concern here for the rest of the podcasters out there is I think this is really like I said, and so it begins. This is going to open the doors for this kind of thing to happen a lot more often technologies already exist to scan audio and video to find copyrighted content. YouTube uses it, but there are other independent technologies. All it takes is for some company out there, some independent company to and hey, maybe this is a business idea for you. Get this technology, scan Apple podcasts and find all of the podcasts that are using copyrighted music without a license and copyright to copyright or contact the copyright holders. Someone is going to do that at some point. And then it's going to be a flood gate of lawsuits and fees and stuff. Just don't do it. I wonder if Apple would ever do something like what Google did with YouTube, where they actually pay a large licensing fee to avoid these issues on behalf of the people using it. So Apple paying the music companies so that, you know, they don't the people that make these podcasts that are in their directory don't have to be sued. Well, and you can see what what Google does is it's not just altruistic. They sell that music then, right? Like so you can like, yeah, by now, I think they have a download link or something. So they're definitely monetizing on top of paying the art. It feels like they're solving the problem, to be honest with you. People may not know they put it in their video. YouTube, you can't replace a video. So that video is done really good. You're kind of, you know, you're kind of, you know, you're if you take it down, it's gone. You lose all that juice. So they're giving it to the money to the person who should have had it in the first place. And then they're making money off themselves. Google's not going to do anything if they can't make money off it themselves. They probably just take your video off. But their interest there. If you again, if they have you have a really good video, they want that video to stay online. So there's a lot of interest that do that. You know, these platforms, these music platforms that are getting involved now. I mean, with Spotify and Pandora, like I know Spotify, you can even have Creative Commons music. They really don't want any music almost on your podcast. Right. I mean, Dave, can you have? I mean, I think you get sticky even with stuff that you've purchased. Right. Yeah. I mean, anything because you always need permission from the songwriter. So let's say that's Prince. You need permission from was it Sheena Easton that did. This is such a print song. Didn't you do a song called Sugar Walls? That's so Prince. Yeah. And then you need you need permission from Warner Brothers, which was the record label. You don't have those three things. That's I mean, you have one spot of sport licenses. Who whoever owns the license, like those artists may turn over their licenses or their rights to the record company. And so it's for the record company then to decide who gets to license the music and who doesn't. So the record company might not need Prince's permission. You might not need Prince's permission. You just need the record company. But it really depends on the nature of the music and who really owns those rights, not just who is involved, but who owns the rights. I mean, submitting to submitting to Spotify these days. I mean, what is this? What is the guideline having music in your podcast? It has to be PodSafe, which makes people's head explode because that means all my podcasts are on Spotify. I have not a problem. But then again, I don't try to ensure that the stuff that I that I include is safe to use. Right. I mean, sometimes so with YouTube, this can even be hard because sometimes you buy it off these sites, right? These royalty free sites and it can't exactly not. It's sometimes hard to prove. Maybe you submit a document and then maybe it's just not something that they have verified. So there are even sites that are pre cleared through YouTube. I have a sponsor from my YouTube channel for music and they're pre cleared. So I never worry about the music. And if I get picked off, I just submit a dispute and it's cleared immediately. But, you know, I know Spotify has a couple of shows. We have a local podcaster here who got his show on Spotify. So it's sponsored by Spotify. And one of the things they're doing is that like they're saying, you can use our catalog because Spotify has the ability to to license that music to the podcaster. So there might be some opportunities there as well. I have no idea. Well, there's also that could come from this is it could be that finally the record labels will recognize the need to have these kinds of podcast friendly licenses and we could see more of an industry level licensing standard for podcasters. Well, I forget the guy's name. Doug, Doug Reed from podcast music.com. I saw him at DC pod fest and he said, we're getting closer. And he named a couple other labels. And he's he's told this to me before. And I'm like, when I see like, I don't know, Taylor Swift or somebody's name that I recognized, AC DC, whatever. And he actually put it down and I saw James Taylor. And I'm like, OK, we're getting someplace. I've heard of that guy. So but it was it was a major record label, but it was like one of the smaller major record labels. But he's like, so they're slowly and that's what we've really needed is somebody to pick up the gauntlet and just keep knocking on the door going, you have billions of downloads and these people want to play your music. They just can't pay three hundred dollars in episode. I think, too, there's something also to to consider like playing other music that's recognizable. It feels cool in the beginning, but there's something to having something more unique that you don't hear somewhere else becomes a brand. Like if I hear the start of Daniel's show, I know it's the audacity to podcast the music, right? Dave, Dave has had I always wanted Dave's. He starts with these drum hits, but I know the school of podcasts. And I love that. I use it for motivation. Like that's the school of podcasting. If it was ACDC, it would be ACDC. I mean, yeah, there would be some crossover, but there is something really cool to having your own music. And I say your own. I mean, you can go out and buy stuff that you're less likely to hear. I mean, this with this in podcasting, this happened all the time. Like I can tell you ever I recognize a garage band song 50 million miles away and I'll tell you what commercials today. Friends, I heard garage band song on friends. Like, you know how much they paid their actors? That's why they couldn't afford music. Right. Like it's insane where you'll hear a garage band music because it's free to use however you want. So I'll hear I know when a commercial cheaped out on their music when I hear garage band music. But, you know, buying your own music. If you have the ability to, you know, try and create your own music. That's what I mean. Yeah, it's great. If you have any sense of paying artists a little bit money to create some or or that you can do that too. Like for one of my podcasts, one of the one of our co-hosts on learn me something is a singer. And so we actually recorded the opening theme song. It's actually him singing and he's playing guitar. So we tried to make something original for. And I think if you have that ability, you should at least try that and see if you can make something that sounds cool. Yeah. And I think that you're people overestimating how much music they actually need. We're talking like 10 seconds of bed music here. Like you don't play at 60 seconds of music before you start talking like you don't need a whole song because that's what people do. They love that ACDC song. They want to play the whole thing a whole two minutes of it before they start their content, but you don't you don't need much. We use that work as an independent artist. And, you know, it's become such the brand of the show and it costs us like 20 bucks or something to buy like this license that lasts forever. It's crazy. He makes his own music. It's fantastic. There's so many good artists, the beauty of the Internet. You can contact so many artists these days. But, you know, I thought interesting too as having this conversation about live streaming and copyright and it's sort of all wrapped up again back to YouTube. There was a problem that YouTube is sort of found a genius way to make you live stream on their platform that there is a lot of times people will take like content that's being live streamed on YouTube, maybe, and they'll record it and if they post it on YouTube, so they'll go and post it on YouTube before the actual other person gets to stop their stream and upload it to other distributions like YouTube. And they actually become the copyright holder because they posted on YouTube first. They have this weird rule where like who will post first gets it. It's probably just so these people have then a lot of people migrated their live streams over to YouTube because we are now we are owning this copyright by creating it in real time. No one can actually post this content before us because it's being posted as we make it, essentially. So I thought that was a really interesting play on the whole live stream platform versus copyright. Although in the United States of America, copyright is effective on creation, not on publication. Sure, buddy. Good luck with that in the United Kingdom. That's why you see at the end of movie credits, which please always stay for the credits. You get great music. You might see Iron Man come and recruit whoever the star is of whatever movie you're watching. But often at the end, it will say for the purposes of copyright in the United Kingdom, so-and-so corporation was the owner of the copyright immediately after this release or something like that. So yeah, it's different in different countries, but in America, you own the copyright without even having to publish the work. You do, but most podcasters are not going to be able to or YouTubers not going to be able to go to court and fight that. So usually your recourse is to contact YouTube and say, they stole my content and like, well, they're the original posters of this content. It's theirs. And it is something I saw recently was pretty interesting. And YouTube is doing a new system now where they are the algorithms, speaking of algorithms, they're scanning all videos. And they, again, based on you having the first version, they're alerting you to say, hey, there are X amount of copies of your stuff. People steal my YouTube videos all the time. So one of my I just found out because I finally got this in my channel that one of my videos was uploaded, taken and uploaded back in like 2014. It has 75,000 views. I lost 75,000 views. So this person, it just stayed up there. And so unfortunately, YouTube does have redress. You can file a complaint for this. But guess what you have to do when you file that complaint? You have to give your home address to the person who stole content from you. How much sense does that make? It's part of a law. It and it's no sense. It's a pure box. And I actually am trying to figure out if I can use because YouTube is a scary place because they'll just take stuff from you and never give it back. So if you actually file a copyright claim wrong or it appears that you've done something, they'll just punish you for it. So you have to be careful. I am going to probably get a P.O. box. But there is now a new tool. It's just if you're a YouTuber, if you're live streaming like us, your podcast on YouTube and people are re-uploading your content, it'll find that stuff. It's very interesting. A lot of that. I don't know if any of you have noticed that on big like like a lot of popular podcasts, there are people creating channels, taking clips from those shows like Joe Joe. Almost everything I've seen. Yep. Everything I've seen of Joe Rogan. I didn't even realize it for like. Yeah. J.R.E. clips, that account, whoever runs that is stealing those clips. I mean, that's got to annoy him. Massive views. Like, I know funny you say that because I just recently because YouTube does a good job of what they're doing is actually small. I mean, they're taking small, interesting seven minute versions of his show, which could be great for his show. And they're saying and they're breaking into the little topics they talk about. This could be something for podcasters, too. Like to surface that content that's in a two hour piece of content. And it's interesting to different amounts of people and it brings all these people into the content. And I realized probably after like two weeks of seeing that that I don't think I'd ever watched an actual clip from his channel. It was all from other YouTube channels. So how this even manages to exist, especially with a show that is that big on YouTube platform is crazy to me. But yeah, that is happening a lot. I don't know what the solution is, but whatever it is YouTube needs to slash Google, they need to do something to make this process easier for people because it's really not acceptable to me that those people creating those accounts are getting those views and or possibly monetizing somebody else's content. And I think this new, new solution for there, I think that they've set the bots free. It's kind of what they've done on music. They've let the spiders go and it's gonna be, it's gonna be picked off for sure. Why doesn't this happen in podcasting? Why don't we have people stealing our audio and uploading it to another feed? People are keep, does it? Yeah, one of the podcasts on my network, another YouTube channel was stealing every single episode and uploading it to YouTube. And of course, trying to monetize that channel with our content. And how did you catch that? So when else told you probably your audience? Yeah, someone else did. And they spelled it just slightly different. So it wouldn't be as findable, but just some, some messages to YouTube and proof that we were the copyright owners. Wait, didn't I recently slack you, Daniel, about what I thought? Didn't I discover one of your videos being stolen? I thought I said something about, hey, check this out. Anyways, I'll have to go back to our slack history. Maybe it's not at all. I thought I saw, you had a popular video, but I don't think it was being stolen. Anyways, it is a problem on YouTube. It is curious that it's less, I have not seen it in podcasting. No one's taking, you know, Mark Marin show and putting in another feed. Are they, Dave? They're putting it on YouTube. I know, it's, I know. And what's the deal with that? Like, is that just because that's easy to upload? I mean, why people, it's harder to put. No, you know what's really bad for that? Howard Stern, because his stuff is behind a paywall. So people will rip all that stuff and upload it to other channels. And I think they're trying to fight it. And I thought actually one of the ways that they're actually fighting it is by actually releasing more clips of the show on YouTube, because clearly that's what people want. I don't think people are necessarily saying they want the entire show for free, whatever. But I think that's also one way to find out, you know, if people are doing this with your content, maybe that means that there's a part of your audience that wants shorter clips, so you should make the effort to make the shorter clips. I get that it's more work, but you know. 100% of the Jimmy Fallon show that I see is a clip on YouTube. I guarantee that show does better, despite it being the Tonight Show, does better on YouTube than it does, it goes viral. Those things go viral because he takes one segment of a song that he does with Sona and it goes viral, right? But again, is it because doing this in a podcast feed would be harder? Like it's just more work. Anchor, didn't we worry about this on Anchor? Yeah, and because the Anchor terms of service, and I haven't read their new version to see if they took out this part, but what concerned me most about their terms of service previously was that you were giving all other Anchor users rights to do pretty much whatever they wanted with your content. So if someone was hosting a podcast on Anchor, you as a fellow Anchor user were permitted to take their content, redistribute it, remix it, edit it, change it however you wanted, monetize it if you wanted. But I believe- Did you hear, yeah, did you hear why? So they updated that, but did you hear why they said, their excuse for that was that because we know Anchor has been several different things, when they were a social sharing app where you were to, the whole idea was to share someone's question and answer that they didn't update their terms of service when it's so much when they became a podcasting platform. And that makes sense. Yeah. Now, what's that? That does make sense, I think. And so, hey, if your service provider, if you radically change your service, make sure you revisit your terms of service. Maybe get legal involved there, buddy. All right. Well, yeah, I mean, it just curious to me though why it happens constantly on YouTube. I mean, like screen capturing a video and re-uploading, that's not easy to do. That takes a lot of work. It's easier to do that with audio, but we're not seeing podcasts, right? We're not seeing Apple Podcasts overrun with copycat, literal copies of your podcast. Well, I think the reason there is that people will copy when your content is not already available in that place. So like if someone just copies your podcast into Apple Podcasts. If it just happens on YouTube, my stuff is free on YouTube people copy because this is why. No, I just answered it myself because they're monetizing it and you can't monetize a podcast that way, anchor. Anchor now you can. Look out anchor, we got more potential for stealing on anchor because they just opened up the sponsorships. Interesting stuff. All right, well, hey. Also, you can steal stuff regardless of genre. Like you could steal one day you steal from a new show, the next day you steal from a sports show, the next day you steal from entertainment. You don't really have to have it make sense in an RSS feed like you would for a podcast. Like if I stole your show, I would have to steal your show every time, right? Cause who's going to subscribe to, hey, the podcast of random clips stolen from the internet. Like how would you market that as a podcast? Bad discovery has saved podcast. Yes. There's fire for you. Rob, there is a discovery problem and it's a good thing. Right, this is also another problem. Like you don't, you can't steals. It stuff does not go viral, like typically on podcasting. People do not, you do not surface cross content on YouTube. Yeah, if I steal something that's popular and it becomes popular, it's going to get put in front of people. That's not going to happen in a podcast, necessarily, so interesting stuff. Well, I think that part of that problem, big part of that problem is because of, you know, YouTube's great obviously for surfacing content and podcast, podcasts aren't. I mean, podcasts live in iTunes, right? So, you know, and that's not a great place for easily finding podcasts that you might be interested in, right? Careful, Alex is treading on very thin. Am I? No, you're only treading on a huge Pandora's box. I'm impressed to go, so I'm impressed. Yeah, we were literally about to launch another whole roundtable and I only, I say that, Alex, as a yes, that topic is revisited and there's a lot there. There's a lot there to be talked about and debated. All right, we aren't going to do that, but we'll save that one. Alex, that's your ticket back to the roundtable for sure. All right, well, hey, as we go out, man, this might win. This might be officially the longest roundtable, though. We can't do a second topic, but we can leave that for another time. We do that, yeah, I want to overload and have some leftovers for sure. Ross even added an extra topic, but then Daniel showed up, so we did good. It's good if we run out of time, again, time. But all right, let us know where your podcast is, one of them, the one you want this audience to go to and thanks for joining the roundtable. Alex, please, I'm happy to finally get you on here. Thank you very much, yeah. You can check out my podcast network, it's hologramradio.org, that's where all their podcasts are. And I will say you work for FeedPress, right? I do, yeah, I'm the product manager for FeedPress. Yeah, and we talk a lot about lips and in blue, but the same hosts you hear off and get, but FeedPress has also been doing, I love the content you guys put out and I don't really see any reason why you wouldn't want to use FeedPress, so it's something to check out for sure. And you know what's funny about FeedPress is I didn't realize you guys were a host for most of the time. Yeah, podcast hosting stuff is a newer thing in the last two years or so. Cause you're sort of a feed burner alternative. Well, that's how we started originally. Yeah, we started originally as a replacement for FeedBurner because we were using FeedBurner and we weren't happy with it. So we built it for that reason, but we were actually working on a major new update. Yeah, cool. I mean, you guys put out a lot of podcasting content. So if you're watching this, you guys should follow FeedPress, at least on Twitter you'll get some really good content. Thank you. Daniel, thanks for joining us. Thank you, Daniel J. Lewis from theodacitytopodcast.com and at the Daniel J. Lewis on the social networks. On the social networks, all of them. Dave Jackson. Yeah, Dave Jackson. Find me over at schoolofpodcasting.com. Awesome, and Ross, thanks for joining us for your first roundtable. I asked you in the pre-show, have we met in person, but that's such a common thing I never realized. You see faces all over social, you talk to people throughout the years, you read content. I think I literally have an article of yours in a tab open right now to go through about live streaming. You just posted something, I believe like a big list of Dave's in it, right? Is that the right article? Predictions, yeah. We're 2019 for live streaming podcasting and video creation. So find me at livestreamuniverse.com and also podcasts or live stream deals and brand on broadcasting. All right, yeah. Well, hey, thanks for everyone. Anyone in the chat who is still here, Paula, Alex been in the chat, Mike, Tim, we got a lot of people still hanging out, which is just amazing. There's Jason Bryant, he's just the squeaky wheel as we know him. But thanks everyone. PodcastsRoundtable.com slash guest. If you wanna be on a future roundtable, you can sign up there and I'll know that you actually wanna be on a round. So do it. Sub to that YouTube channel. I wanna see that 600 numbers don't matter but we still care if that makes any sense. Wave goodbye. We're out of here.