 Good morning. Hey, can you hand one second I am trying to set somebody else up on a different meeting so I'm just going to go on mute but feel free to welcome folks as they come in. Go. I shall be a couple of minutes before we start up here. No problem. And actually I'm going to pop out and then come back so if you guys have Alex you want to get started or just hang on one second. I'll be back. Okay, sorry about that. And then it wraps up so. Perfect, very efficient everyone. Okay, so. Opening up the meeting agenda. Thank you for joining me for July 25th. Perfect. So let me share my screen. Awesome. Well, welcome everybody to the areas marketing working group call for July. We meet once a month to discuss every all things marketing related to areas and hope to have more kind of voices and thoughts and ideas. And I encourage as we move forward and kind of updating and refreshing the messaging and kind of public facing content and descriptions for areas. If you want to add your information to this, let me. I think I can just put the link in the chat. And so again, my name is Helen Garno I'm from in DCO Alex would you like to introduce yourself. Thanks, make half working with come in the British Columbia. And Sean, I know we've crossed paths. Can you remind me what organization. Yes, Sean Tom from APSA, South Africa. I heard about this last week. Now for the life of the country member told me. But yeah, yeah, right. Welcome. Yeah, we have been talking a little bit about this group and the formation of this group over the last couple of months in the regular areas working group call so you might have heard it talked about there. But yeah, we did a little work in our last meeting. We were talking about how to describe areas what elements that we needed to kind of hear from the community about so we had created a survey to receive some of those some information just some opinions about kind of what's missing and what we should be doing. And we got those survey results back. And Alex has done a beautiful job, kind of formulating all of those, all that feedback and all of our conversations into a deck. So I'm going to share your screen and just present and we could talk about what we have, what you have. Yeah, absolutely give me two minutes here to miss 30 seconds here. 30 seconds feels like two minutes, sometimes I'm saying. And the side of presentation thing where you, you stand silent in front of people and it feels like an age but actually quite a long time before we will start to get uncomfortable way longer than it feels like when you're presenting. Playing with that when I'm doing presentations alright, we share this window up here. There was a person named Nathan George, who was one of the first kind of leaders of the working group calls from Indy and who was at sovereign and now he's at key I believe. And he would say, Oh, does anybody have any comments or questions and he would like, he would give a solid minute or like 90 seconds of like wait time before he would move on. And so we called it a Nathan like a unit of time. Yeah, so that's where that's what a Nathan is wonderful. Okay, here we go. So, you know this for recording for sure and as well and let's talk through what we did and what we found here. These are the results of a survey put out about three come on three weeks ago now, ran it for a couple of weeks. We're promoting in various places various, the working group, honey, but on the email list, the hyper ledged discord server within a few organizations got 16 responses back, which is to say this is not in any way a statistically valid. So the results is more of indicative items like, you know, can you see one prompting comment to open up a new avenue of thinking which is what it did. So should be taken with that we haven't got any real purpose in recording demographic information about the people or their employment and so forth so we also know the skew of this there could be some really great opinions out there about Aries, and it's important features are not reflected here. But with all those caveats said we got some good things out of it so just recap the results now and just talk about them rather than dive into the actual numbers. We had a like a question out the gate from not important to very important a five point scale about how important people think Aries features are to a business person and we gave them a whole bunch to choose from. Now this is to give a sense of how he wants to prioritize how we write about Aries, because from some questions we asked in the working group are going back about two months now, each person had a different summary of what they thought was important So everyone say okay is it isn't that it's for identity solutions isn't the priors privacy preserving important. What about the fact you can make wallets with it if you want to have that know right up front is that not clear, how about its future proved all these kind of things. So these are the bar graphs and where they skew high to the right hand side that means more support with a skew high to the left it means less support. So the most these results in line with what we thought identity solutions being the strongest people looking for the application for identity so that makes a ton of sense it's good to have that backup. Complete toolkit also lots of support using other credentials for high blue bar there like W3C credentials. Mix response which is interesting to me about wallets and agents in that we thought there might be. I thought there might be more people saying yes it's really important you say right up front you can make your own agents with this to do a BNC. That may be important this is not again the whole community, but it's a price not see that one higher. So that's like, okay, isn't it and putting these lower doesn't mean we're not going to talk about them. It means you may not talk about them as prominently right up front. So I think those are the main takeaways from this is that wallets and agents when, as important as saying you can apply this for identity you can apply this has multiple credential support. Oh yeah, the one that was negatively against people saying we don't the response saying we don't really care that it doesn't require blockchain. That wasn't a high priority feature that may have applicability to a market and misunderstanding there has been some talking in the EU about these aspects but in terms of priority features response that wasn't one of them. So let me ask I'll go to these these these results in a bit more detail I did the working group last week and I'll leave some speed impressions at the end. We asked exactly just ask a question on. So on the create agents is, is that in relation to that. The people you spoke to already have agents talking to the ledgers that they require. We don't have that information but my from doing a lot of survey work my interpretation is. It's not important when talking to a business person to mention wallets and agents upfront. They're more trust in the solution it provides rather than the together. And then we asked the same questions again but we asked the person that we asked respondents what about to developer. And these are much more powerful I just mentioned all the same things apply apart from a few things off the charts open source yes open standards yes huge support multiple languages that kind of makes sense. And again the same trends for the business people apply to developers. And the interesting steer that you know, we'll still mention solutions that involve wallets and agents and we'll still mention the fact that it doesn't require blockchain business but you know, as high priority in a hierarchy of things you tell people. When you first introduced into areas which we'll come to in a minute. We asked them any other suggestions of things that are important to mention. Some good, some good things came up these are more like you know, prompting food for thought items. And what's the conformity like for existing standards. How about for government level density and KYC needs. What's the time to market how you know where is this rate ago do you have to build top it what was it come with cryptography, who's there. Is it being externally reviewed by Athena with the pie all this kind of things. So this is an interesting list to come back to as we evolve how we describe our areas. And what we've been told about before in the first summary and hadn't been prompted by talking to the community about so it's good to get these responses. And they made a free text question saying, you know, go out or what else we missed. With that coupled with the freak, the free text we asked people to give us a whole bunch of materials that they thought would be great for people starting new areas. If you know developers coming new to this business business community news Aries, where do you send them. What's that bookmarked PDF you like what's that video that course. We got a whole bunch of suggestions, which we've collated and we'll put on to a first pass of a getting started section. And with that areas materials and we can refine this and the idea is that we're going to build get the community ball this is not for me and Helen to try and, you know, micromanage this is saying here's a place guys if you have somewhere you always send people. Put it here and reduce the workflow for everybody else they can kind of get started so we have about. I want to say about 30 links that people provided, which was very helpful. Feel the suggestions fact sheet comparing various two alternatives. It's a good point. FAQ. Most of you can cover the offer well structure information and it becomes a bit of a catch or if not looked after, but there could be FAQs about things that people often asked that we can address our right in that format so I think it's a merit there. Explanation of areas shorter longer versions. Great idea takes work might be a community thing to contribute. And then this is a good prompting question to segue into what I'll just finish and as someone said, the sooner we can update the hyperlegic pages about areas the better. And we have some materials are just dated from the launch of areas so 2019 more technical in nature. Don't reflect the latest use cases and now in some cases are incorrect. We need for us to get something update the students possible which we can cover in a minute. So, very helpful results, which basically said, I think I need for the same thing that we're on the right track we want to make sure that we were not presuming something about right in the areas that the community wasn't in line with. And this is not in any way statistically valid. In terms of, you know, quant analysis. We do get some some indications that we're on the right track and how we're describing this. So, so it's not just the Alex talking show how do you want to bridge into how we're going to be applying this do you want to show a description you come up with or how we're going to apply the format of it. Yeah. Or I can. Yeah, I think if you haven't, if you haven't met at the tip of your fingers that'd be helpful but I'll just add that yeah I definitely want this to be a collaborative effort. And it's also going to, you know, have lots of versioning, getting something out with sort of a baseline update across the wiki across the actual hyper ledger. And then there's this page that pops up when you like the highest ranked page when when you do a search for areas, getting those items refreshed and updated and then continue to iterate I think is going to be the best way moving forward. I would love to, you know, see more kind of implementation use cases examples of implementation. I would love to have more video content more contributions from the community in terms of marketing support of in terms of like white papers and longer form, you know, reading materials I mean all of this kind of conversation came out of the, I guess it was like six weeks ago or maybe two months ago, that they were talking about the open wallet foundation and somebody was saying, you know, I'm out in the community and in business meetings with potential customers. And they want to hear about a wallet and a wallet is so important and that's what we should talk about we don't ever talk about wallets and Aries, and we're like yeah then we should change it and I think you know there's some opportunity to find that middle ground for Aries. If it's a community, if it's communication or messaging problem, then, then we should absolutely change it so this is that opportunity to get started but it's by no means that the end result that we're never going to change it moving forward. So hopefully this this, you know we get this update going and then we keep moving. Absolutely. And the screen share in front of you is a draft of the content I'll position this we're going to come up with like, this is a core description of Aries as a sort of middle ish technical layer, and we're going to apply in three places. The landing page for the Hyperledger Wiki pages for Aries. So when you come to Aries and that's one of the main ones that comes up depending on your search engine and your in your search history. That could be first. The second one is the Hyperledger Aries landing page, the use case page on the Hyperledger website. Now we can't update that one right now due to some practicalities. We might be able to find a way around that but that's because they're refreshing their site. And they've got a bit of a freeze on content updates while they do that but that's the second place. And we might lift some of this content up a little bit to be a bit more slightly more high level for that audience and then they can link through the more details. That's the second place you apply the content. And the third one is in the Aries main Aries GitHub repo. The main readme file when you come to the repo has got a space for an overview as well. So those are the three core points and we can provide, I want to provide routes up where appropriate to high level information so if there's anything more business focus we can link up from that in the right places. And equally more likely as well we'll go down from this so people come from this initial Wiki page they might go down to more technical details needing me to link into that as well. And that's where this description came from based on drafts he worked at before based on feedback from the survey results I just covered and some feedback from the Aries working group. It was somebody give a couple of comments last week come to this description here where you've got a general summary at the top that's the link of where it's going to be by the way and some key characteristics of what it is. So these are the links that were provided by various people they could still be sorted I just took a first stab at saying these are more general needs a more developer techie focus but that could be better grouping and we can we can iterate them but let's get something up because something is better than nothing to go these links here, and then we'll continue the format as an existing page except to say that Helen has got this great template page that we're going to work off as a good structure for a wiki page and we'll probably just repurpose this content into the right places on that template page in the coming days right now. So we can have that that wiki page update as soon as possible so wiki page first hyper ledger site when they let us and see if we can find a way through that and then getting that repo for the repo updated the read me file there. And now if you do a Google search on hyper ledger areas because our assumption is that people are going to people are typically finding us not by searching on a what's out there to do identity and all the sorts of nuances of what that means. But we're working on the premise which I think has been backed up by a few people supporting us in this is that they hear about areas, it comes up in a conference we hear in a talk and they want to learn more. So work in the basis in the search for us by name. That's not to say some of our keywords might not hit that. But when you do that and search for hyper ledger areas by name those three places come up first, and that's what we're talking with this content. Yeah, I think that's an apt summary. Let me put the one more time just for folks that just joined us the link to this, this meeting, the wiki in the zoom chat here one more time. Yeah, if you go to that Google Docs link up that paper showed you in the screen share is about page two or three into that document to scroll down to says wiki content and then you'll see what we've got there. So yeah, the next step for us is I think we have the messaging good for now this is not a final one is I might get something up and let's iterate it. And next step is is, and unless there's any comments, which we really welcome right now. Next step is we're going to update that wiki page and move things forward and make it, you know, much more effective as a landing page of people. So that wiki page that you just showed is that just a current version that you're looking to update. Oh, sorry, here's, here's just the wiki page I put in the comments is the one for the meeting today. And the example page that the hyper ledger staff actually mentioned is a great model for filling out a wiki page kind of format for a project is this one and it's for one of the labs called me mini fab. And that is this link that I just put in the chat, the second link there the short link. And for mini fab, and I can also share my screen. And that would be an example of kind of what we're looking at in terms of updating the areas, the current areas page. So we'd have maybe some content at the top, a like a description of what it is, some of the highlights of what it does and some of those value points that that Alex just had in there, and then how to like get people going quickly how to get them using it contributing to it. Participating in meetings, etc. So we have all of the get started, get involved items right at the top. If you have questions where to go where the discord channel is etc. I think you know a layout similar to this is kind of what we're looking at if you go to the areas page as it stands. It has it has a description that, you know, needs to be updated. It has some characteristics, and then it has a documentation repose, and then communication and chat but I think that, you know, and then you know calendars and stuff but I think there's an opportunity here to kind of move things around make it a little more user friendly, especially again for potential customers or partners or vendors who are looking to adopt areas looking to learn about it just make it easier for them to find what they're looking for quickly depending on their level of knowledge or interest or what have you in the project so kind of move things around to make it a little more user friendly and update it with the messaging that Alex just shared. But the description that you if you scroll up quickly to the top. So to me this description is more of what it is then what we're proposing to update. So potentially just keeping keeping this description is what you're what you're. It resonates more with me than what we were trying to say in the other one because it is an infrastructure for peer to peer interaction as defined, because if Alex brings up these description. He talks to do more it being a digital identity ecosystem but it's more the infrastructure that allows the peer to peer interaction. I don't know, I mean that was my view or is my view of what areas is. Absolutely. And does anybody else want to jump in and chat. I think there's an opportunity here to have a nice. Yeah, discussion on what other people think. I mean when we kind of set out with the task of updating the language. It's a lens of trying to supply a view of areas that would be more understandable palatable familiar to somebody who doesn't know anything about areas somebody who is again a potential customer or partner or what have you. Who is a technical who wants to who's a business decision maker who's trying to decide whether or not to put money into a particular project or a particular vendor etc. And so when I think that we had, we started asking the questions in the survey etc, we were sort of framing it as, you know, there's these two different audiences the business audience and the developer audience and how can we kind of start real high level and then provide the offshoots and the, the experience that each one of those types of audiences would require. I don't know if you can actually get that first sentence in less technical. Sure, especially for a business person. Because I mean this is the language we utilize when communicating our business but in all fairness. We actually don't even go into the detail around areas just due to the fact that we find it's more a technical toolkit than, for example, what indies. So we would, we would have more business conversation around India than what we would have around areas. Because to us it's a pure technical tool set, same with Ursa for us to implement decentralized identity. I don't know how the other guys on the call see it and if they actually have a different type of conversation. One of the things about that first sentence in, or even the first, you know, part of that sentence hyper large hyper ledger areas as an infrastructure for blockchain rooted peer to peer interactions. We have found it in this kind of conversations in the last, you know, couple of months that a lot of organizations don't even really want to talk about blockchain. It's a word that they immediately start thinking crypto for a high level business decision maker it can be it can be a sticky word. So that was one of the items that I think had come up and one of the conversations was just that that word and then also peer to peer interactions. Again, if we're trying to start high level maybe this is a maybe this this phrasing and this terminology can then be used use somewhere else, but peer to peer interactions is also something that it doesn't really spark the value driven conversation. How can I implement what why would I implement this, what good is it to me in my business, why would I want to do this, where would I, you know, where would I implement it. And so I think part of what we were looking at is providing descriptions that were more again value oriented and communicating areas as a. I mean to Sean you could or Alex you could bring bring it up again what kind of the draft that you have there. But looking at it from a perspective from a lens of if a business is putting time resources energy money developer time towards Aries. Why would they make that decision and we're trying to answer that that question. Maybe that's not the question we should should have to start with. I don't know Alex do you have any thoughts on this. Yeah, I can see the value of clarifying at the right time, what it actually is, like I understand that and when we've, and a parallel piece of work the hell I doing with did come. We've gone more that way. It has a lower level technical value and we actually saying this is what it is quite clearly up front. But the breadth of it. Like I said every time you ask people a different idea what it meant. So we have gone just use a value base it's it's it's your it's your complete toolkit for doing this, and let's do this and this and this. Okay, and then the thinking is, well how does it what exactly is it well that's when you dive in. You look at those videos you look at those intros you look at the okay I get it now it's it's facilitates this. I think it is important. I could see potentially the value somewhere in description. In the right place is saying you know explicitly what is, but we have so far purposely picture that bit higher. As to what it brings the table rather than technically what it is, especially because I think the words. It's so easy when we're so in it to think these words are complex. But when we when you in any way like approaching us that first line is critical and we're starting to use four plus syllable words and get into longer technical things and blockchain route and infrastructures and peer to peer. They're not. We're just trying to find the middle ground of language. And so it's not going to discussion and I really hear what you're saying Sean I don't know the exact answer. And so far is that the few that we've had has been that being a lot of people have not pushed back on the track we've taken. So I'm wondering there's a way to have a cake and eat it on if we can take the value based approach you have and also have a statement someone say exactly what it is maybe there's like a. You know what point does that become critical. What point does it develop your what is it. I would say point of implementation but the other. The. So if we look at the first sentence areas is your complete toolkit for the same. When people see complete toolkit. I'll take areas and now I can start issuing my debts you can't. You need components like usher in it. You need components like a hyper ledger in the or the data depending on you know which direction you want to take. If it's like your complete toolkit for integration. Because the sentence in itself say condors says guys if you take areas you don't need anything else. That's the part that kind of reason conflict. I don't know. This is Tim here sorry I'm driving it's too much noise I'll go back to you. I'm struggling with this a bit because I mean areas. I mean probably areas is as many different. Applications we talked about the acupy is a complete tool kitty talking if Jay is a complete toolkit. Because I could certainly don't need indeed issue credentials some in it with some of those tools depending on what I'm doing. Others you know I don't do so. I struggle with, I still struggle with what is areas in terms of the toolkit, a set of standards, working code, implementing a set of standards. But I do think that areas isn't an important focus I mean as opposed to I really, to me Indian stuff is almost, there's a very few pieces left in India that are needed. But but areas is pretty much a placing most of the pieces the last one is a ledger but India is a non I mean sorry areas is credential agnostic now, I mean non crisis I should say so you don't have to use Indie node for example. Anyway, I do struggle with the much or what it is. And maybe there's room for modification instead of your complete toolkit. We do mention. An open source code repository or the mature code base for building decentralized identity solutions or something like that. But one thing we, I always had in the back of my mind is when Aries was graduated from, or they, whatever, and into graduated status, I don't know whatever the top level most mature status that hyper ledger. It's because it has a thriving community it has tons of contributors from a bunch of different organizations. There's constantly, you know, commits and interesting things happening and you know it's it's I want, I want to make sure that anybody comes our way and is looking at Aries understands that it's not just, you know, a bit of a bit of code that has been open sourced and you can pick it up and it might be able to do something with it I want to make sure that it is very clear about the breadth and depth of the code and that the description is in line with, again, what somebody, what their pain point is right like who are we serving with this top level description. And, you know, at the end of the day it's it's going to be somebody who's putting money towards creating a product with this. So why would they create a product with with this and, you know, let me learn more right. So we're starting out with, oh it's a code base that, you know, it's a mature code base that does, but whatever we decide you know the word wording there, and then we go into making peer to peer connections and, you know, to send you know something you know we could build I think we can build that language into a place in a workflow in a kind of a, you know, customer experience for using that using that language so we could we can definitely build it in there. I don't think we have to abandon it, you know, just blankedly. It was more around just getting that appropriate view of what it is to us as a community. I mean your ongoing communication channels for reaching their action to me is a good replacement for peer to peer. If you know that business type terms, the meter requirement and regulations for government level identities, maybe a bit of a stretch. There's a couple governments that are very keen on using it for that. No, I totally agree but you need to add. Let's call it a governance framework around it to meet those regulations it in itself doesn't do it. No, no it's a talk is it's a technology style it's not it's not the pieces around. Absolutely agree. But I still think at the tool it's a set of libraries and open source code bases mature open source code that allow you to implement these standards I think that's that that's the huge value proposition I think it's early. Yeah, very robust set of code. Awesome. I have been not taking very good notes back. Let me get back into the page and then we'll, I'll add that those those comments in here because really that's what this meeting is for right is to make sure that we aren't, you know, leaving anything on the table when we go to make to then present kind of what are to present this to the general kind of working areas working group. But I want to make sure you know we want to make sure that there is enough ideas and. Yeah, enough ideas being circulated and be in consideration so that we are able to provide a good, good, you know, next steps. So just adding some notes into the areas marketing working group meeting page. So I think that was, that was the majority of what we wanted to talk a little, you know, talk about today and Alex what do you think about adding, or when you, I think the idea is the next steps is to present that deck to the working group or to the like general areas working group is that right is that that would be the next steps. We've had we did that summary of the deck last week. Briefly, I think the next step was really about here's a, here's a wiki page ready to go. I would imagine is why is I think if we can reflect the language at the front so it's very clear what this is and we get that right I think that feedback is really helpful. Thank you, Sean Tim on that. If we get if we tighten that up so we have clear on that. I think the next step is, I suggest is, let's get something improved let's get the wiki page improved and ready to go. And maybe what we do is, we implement the, the language from the documents that you shared into a draft, and then I send that out. And then we can, you know, add or subtract or to you know change things as needed. But, you know, I do, I just, I really think that starting out high level and then kind of letting it, you know, choose your own journey. If you're looking at more learning about understanding what areas is or going to look under the hood and start seeing the code and the, you know, different, you know, underlying descriptions for developers I think that there's, there's room for both. And, and, you know, being able to accommodate that in what in the wiki and, you know, with offshoots I think is the best course of action so whether or not we keep that sort of the same areas language higher up or further down, it will be there. So I think it's just a matter of who, who that most appeals to, but we could definitely move things around as we go. Sure. Cool. And you put all those links to those two documents in the chat is that right Alex. I put the, which I put in there. No need to put the Google Doc link to that. Update description one second here. Okay. Yeah, maybe I'll just, I'll drop in that survey. Yeah, we'll just want to drop in the survey results stack that you showed and then I think I made it deleted the link that we had in there and then the area, the one that you had just presented. Just a question, are we going to be looking at the training material as well, because I see there's a course in inverted commas that covers hyperledger areas in these non credits. And then through the Linux foundation training. Oh, that is a good question. The areas community did not make that training material specifically I think like Steven current wrote it maybe. Yeah, the hyperledger. Yeah, something like that. So, yeah. We could, we could, yeah, we could approach Steven about, you know, if he's working on any updates or if we could, you know, review any of that material. I think he's been updating it over the years as things are going keeps refreshing it from what I remember hearing anecdotally so awesome. So yeah, maybe I'll try to grab that. Maybe I grab him for our next meeting he can join us and he could walk through the, the training and certification materials because you're right that's that's definitely a first step, you know, in a lot of people's journeys for sure. I feel like I went through it, it was like free for a minute and I went through it, but it was years ago Sean, have you ever gone through it in any iteration or Alex have you gone through it. Yeah, I think it's free unless you want the certification. I think it's still free to go through and it's, it's got some good conceptual building block stuff in there, which I find it's for back in the day. Yeah. I think it's $180 or something to that effect. For the certification or for the just the training. No for the certification. Okay. Yeah, so the, the just the workshop like the work the training is free so you can access and see the questions and everything or you know the content there. But what you're saying is you'd like to see the certification questions. Is that what you're asking for. So, you know, the as we update the material yard and give that business business view of what areas is Stephen kind of to me needs to take that wording and included in the training course was the training course talk specifically to an introduction for business. Now we say why and he says X. Yeah, no, that would be that would be counter counterproductive to our effort. So yeah, we'll, we'll definitely I'll reach out or Alex if you talk to Steven, if you want to invite him to our next next month's meeting, and we can walk through the training insert materials that would be, I think a good idea. Oh, sorry, and it might also be helpful to bring you know Sam in as well and you know with the two working group chairs and us, you know really get into the nitty gritty. So if we draft, you know, take, take the information that we have draft a new wiki page, and then kind of wireframe out what the web with the hyper ledger foundation website page would contain. And then present it to the working group and then we can fine tune it with the working group chairs on our next call I think that would be a good kind of next steps. So I'll put that under future topics. Oh yeah we did want to talk and that was one of the questions we had had is about competitors, like what what I maybe somebody on the call could answer the question. Robert, but who, what are the other competitors to Aries if someone's looking at building decentralized identity what else are they looking at. They're looking very much an open ID from you see. Good dominance competitor I stand looking at ISO MDL. Yeah, the problem is that not all the same things but let's just say I saw MDL open ID for BC as well a lot of people are going. Now they're doing the different things that eventually ISO generic standards, the ID standards are coming out. Those are your primary competitors. Okay, the VC can actually work within Aries so it gets complicated and these is been diagrams and then diagrams and stuff. But I would definitely say the ISO stuff, especially government which is very, very focused on MDL right now. Okay. Is there a way to make it clear that open ID can work with Aries is there some some miscommunication or misunderstanding about any of those kind of competitors when in that band diagram. Yeah, it's not that I don't know this others have to sort of chime in so there's definitely pieces of Aries that are overlapping with open ID for BC issuance right that's exactly what an issuance and presenting proof. Both of those things are overlapping but then you can you know a non-creds could be presented by open ID to be issued by it anyway, or proof can be presented so it gets really hard to nail it down I mean there's there's there's a bit of. I don't know a better way of saying that event diagram but I'm not sure how you can clarify that. Yeah, sorry, I have to think about it. No I appreciate that yeah I mean the I think it had come up, Alex and I were just, you know thinking about what other mess. Yeah messages out there. From other organizations other private entities other open source entities other standards bodies etc and so yeah that's, I think a great a great place to start. Yeah, as Alex mentioned we're working on some sort of, you know, did come language as well and open ID for VC is coming up there as well and so it sounds like there there's an opportunity to clarify to sort of clarify and less muddy the waters. There's an opportunity to do it actually I think that's the best place to do it because there's no reason why did come and open it even BC cannot in cannot work be side by side. But that's where there is some misunderstanding you will think that you know if you open it even BC you can't be using did calm well you certainly could insist and so yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Okay. Thanks for adding some notes and into the page. Another item that we had on our agenda was use cases. Specifically going through the repose of and describing each a little more familiar, like a little more palatable for somebody who doesn't know what a non creds or doesn't know what Jason like all the all the different repos that are in areas. How can we present those that, you know, these ones kind of go together and these ones kind of go together and this is what they do if you're looking to do this you want to look at these ones. If you if you're looking to do this other thing you want to look at these ones so I think that was another question for Steven and Sam and anybody on this call could, you know help help with that is what different parts of areas are most compatible with one other and why would someone want to use one and not the other, and in making their, their decisions on where to build. One thing you might want to look out there is it's starting to come up. One of the other foundation others is the concept of profiles. Really precise. It's not quite what you're asking because, you know, you, if Jeff was a occupy compete. You know, they, I mean, one's use more use mobile ones more use desktop but really that's a lot of the same functionality but it does. These are an area where you could you work sort of list for this, this credential scheme. This issuance this presentation, you know, presentation protocol whatever it may be very precisely listed so, but there's not many profiles right now. And that would at least help identify the anyway, all the one foundation is also working on trying to get profiles together to try and identify those kinds of patterns. I think we're done with areas to try and link them together. I'm not sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean that the getting started is always I mean is always a factor that comes up with areas, even not. I mean last week, this week I think I don't know I can't remember my weeks now in the discord channel there was something I tried this and I didn't know and I don't know where to start I tried to follow the guide on the that I found on the wet, like no one can. It's very there's a high barrier of entry for using and understanding areas and all of this work that we're doing is trying to lower that barrier of entry and get more people using it more people understanding it more people a roadmap on where they want to go based on what their use cases in their head that they've identified that decentralized identity verifiable credentials is is would benefit them so the more we can lower that barrier I think that's that's the goal here. And that's where I mean the open ID for BC is so being so successful. People think they know it because they already know IDC and all off you know exactly protocol, but they understand it intuitively it's very simple. You know you pick your poison but yeah that's exactly where that protocols standard which is still you know hasn't even finalized so so you know it's ready to use standard issuance. And that was done because of people could just understand it. Yeah that's great. I think there is some there was talk about open ID and Aries having some sort of agreement or co collaboration and something or other I'm not quite sure where what had come up. What was that was the wallet wallet which is different. Oh, sorry, sorry, I'm taking my opens. Oh, which is also very open even BC centric right now but we'll also support you know I would should also support down areas to come even if a Swiss Army knife but yeah. So open wallet is more related to. Let's call it authentication protocol. When you log on to an SSO where areas. And that's where you can use in open wallet credentials, people credentials that are issued. But for example, open wallet wouldn't use proof of employment. It has no value in its current. Let's call it deployment, because using your proof of employment to log on is, you know, you'd rather what is your identity to log on. Are we talking about the same foundation hasn't is not that precise prescribed is. Let's open ID. I'm talking about open ID here I'm talking about open ID for VC which does cover the same territory this is different for IDC. And that's, you know, we're getting into probably, which is about authentication but open ID for VC covers issuance. Okay, okay. Open ID there. Yeah, open ID for VC that's something different. It's not open ID. Alex or who's typing Helen. Yeah, open ID so it's a great confusion open ID the number four and then VC. Yeah, maybe we are. Thanks for catching that. Apologies, I put it in other places not I wasn't being prescriptive on it but yeah, open ID for VC. Okay, well I mean in the last few minutes here, I think we had a great I think this has been a great discussion on what more I think we were. We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater but you know there is a lot that we could keep from areas I think from the current areas description and messaging but I think it's putting it in the right places for the right audiences so we'll definitely be moving some things around adding like another higher level. There's a lot of kind of description at this onset, but definitely want to get into these nuances so it answers people it's almost like a FAQ not that we put an FAQ but like, you know, it's one of these common misconceptions, misunderstandings of technology. Again, high barriers of entry, people not understanding where to go and what to do that we're trying to eliminate. So that I think might be in the next iteration or next series of, you know, work steps for us, moving forward once we kind of get the first first elements implemented. So, what we're going to do, I don't think there's other business but I just took this template from someone else. I'll invite Steven and Sam to the next call to talk about the training, the training and certification. We're going to review and have them review kind of the new pages that we will be drafted between now and then for them to look at and why hopefully a wire get a wireframe put together to at least give to hyper leisure foundation so that when they implement their website they can quickly kind of update them the language there. Yeah, and then in the meantime just focus on. Or sorry for the action items. We're going to just focus on updating the wiki for now and go from there. Yeah, very helpful feedback. Thank you. Um, cool. Is there any other kind of last minute call outs comments, anything that anybody wants to share. I gave like no point one Nathan's there. I'm giving it a full Nathan. No, just kidding. Yeah, so yeah, feel free to reach out feel free to, you know, add notes or what have you on this page. Happy to keep the conversation going on discord there is a Aries marketing channel I believe now on discord so we can keep, you know, keep the conversation going there. If you see examples or resources or links that you want to share that you think should be included or are good examples of something please, you know, drop them in, keep the, you know, keep the conversation going after this meeting. Yeah, this is not a point in time. This is the first of many a increments you may not get it all right at first time but we can keep improving it. I think if we think about that ways and gives a lot more freedom, because everything's about I think a big set force where we are right now, in terms of what we're trying to show all the great ones having the Aries last years. So let's, let's let's do that let's keep it going in all the feedback as well. Thank you all for your time today thanks for showing up, and we'll see you on the interwebs. Thank you all.