 All right, the three o'clock block, I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech. We're talking about sustainable Hawaii today, because we want to make Hawaii sustainable. And one of the things is to look at our tourist industry and see whether it's fully, sufficiently sustainable going forward. And one of the guys we have to talk about with us on this is Gordon Fuller, an old friend of Think Tech. We know him for about 200 years, and Gordon has been on the show many times in many capacities. And Gordon joins us from what? Why not today by telephone? Hi, Gordon. Yes. Aloha, Jay, and Aloha listeners, a joy to be with you. Gordon does many things. Why don't you give a praise to the many things you do, Gordon? It's like, because it's, you know, it's too numerous for me to say in only a few words. Oh, you're very kind. Well, I'm a social entrepreneur, and that means I'm engaged with community. And I'm also looking for ways to use market-driven solutions to solve some of our social problems, social needs. And that's kind of my very special area. I found that I was a creative and talented person, and I was looking for a way to use those talents that they might serve people in a better way. And I worked in the advertising industry and marketing, PR, journalism, television reporter. And being an influencer and persuader, I sought to use those talents to the better of my community. So that's kind of how it gave me a bit of breadth and depth. And they add business, as you probably know, Jay, you get to be an instant expert at about a hundred things. That's for a lot of stuff at you. And it makes you flexible and adaptable. And that's the fact I'm a blind person. And losing my sight challenged me as an artist and particularly a visual artist. And that made me think, you know, what else can I do? What other skills do I have? And it gave me a lifelong recognition of the flexibility and adaptability of people. Yeah. God, Gordon, you are so together and so smart. Honestly, you know, I envy you. The ability to string words together like that. But anyway, so we're going to talk today. We're going to talk about accessible travel and tourism, because, you know, Hawaii needs to have a robust and sensitive, you know, going across the board in solution on travel and tourism. And I'm not sure we have that yet. I think we need to have that. We need to make Hawaii enjoyable for everyone. And that that takes entrepreneurship. It takes creativity. It takes a long view on things. It's part of planning. It's part of the very sustainability that we talk about all day long. So but it's not easy because we're not outfitted for it right now. Beyond the ADA, we're not there. We'd have to go much further than the Americans with Disabilities Act of what? She was almost 30 years ago. So Gordon, you know, how do you see this unfolding? You talk about, you know, accessible travel, accessible tourism for Hawaii, reshaping perhaps the our tourism and hospitality industry. Not so easy, not so cheap. What what kind of tourism and travel industry do you see in the future? You know, in an ideal sense, that would be accessible for people who have accessibility issues. Well, that's an interesting question, Jay. And the long one, I must say, but I'm ready for it. OK, here we go. Truth is, we in the United States have led the world. We've spent at least 65 years on public policy, on getting rules and regulations, and we've changed the game already. We've made our hotels and our travel and tourism industry in all sectors accessible. It may not be perfect, but it's a far sight better than other people in the world have done, and we have indeed been world leaders in that way. What's more, almost in a unprecedented way, we've across the board required that people make accessibility accommodations. You'll find every hotel in Hawaii has rooms reserved on the ground floor for wheelchair users. The people can roll into the showers. They have extra large. They don't have the thick carpeting in them. They're kind of set up. And also every bus in Hawaii, you can take the bus wherever you go. There are many beaches that have roll in wheelchairs that are plastic wheelchairs that people can take into the ocean when they are paralyzed or have mobility impairments. We have people taking tours of scuba divers who have cerebral policy and full body paralysis. And we have our airline industry has been under tight regulations with the FAA to improve accessibility, and it is. And so it's one of the wonder things about our society that we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars making accommodations, removing barriers, making our world more accessible, captioning movies for the blind. I go to movies all the time. I listen to the movie. It's like an audiobook with an exciting soundtrack. So we have done a lot. Now, here's the thing that's really a shocker. And you'll appreciate this as an advertising background guy. The brand has never been advertised. Not at all. And it's the last thing missing in the accessibility puzzle is where is the accessibility? If I roll up on the courthouse in my list to clip van with my control systems that allow me to drive, even when I'm fully paralyzed, people do this all the time now. And I can find the disabled parking place. Now, when I start to head into that shopping district or mall, where the heck is the accessible restroom? Where's the lift? Where's the elevator? That is. Where's the ramp? What's going to greet me when I get there? You have to be thinking about those things. And that's kind of the challenge when you have a disability. You become a problem solver. You get fairly adept and used to, you know, figuring out what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. Now, like most people who travel, people with disabilities look ahead. They try to figure out, OK, where's the accessibility? If I stay at the Grand Hyatt or if I stay at the Hilton Hawaiian Village, you know, how do I find an accessible ATM? How many shops around there? How many restaurants could accommodate a wheelchair? Do I have to worry about this? And so there you go. And that's the challenge is right now we still have a mass media culture. That is to say, when people think of promoting their brands, they always think of the masses. And that's kind of an interesting idea. Sure enough, when you're doing the Marriott, you want to say, here we have a beautiful beach and Waikiki at the Marriott and we have a couple of clinking wine glasses. They don't generally put the couple in a wheelchair. And the reason for that is there's a mistaken belief that people will see that and think, oh, well, that's where the wheelchair people go. You know, there's always this sense of otherness about people with disabilities. But really, you know, we are, in fact, every one of us. Well, let me let me let me dwell on that for a minute. You know, first of all, you've said that we already have it. But my question initially was, what should we do to make it better? There you go. So that's what I'd like you to I'd like you to help me with that. That's the one I'm ready for. OK, go for it. OK, well, the information about accessibility is what we need. Where is it? Is there a ramp? Is there a lift or elevator? Can I can I stay in that hotel with my wheelchair? Will people be kind to me when I get there? They did a study in Europe back in 2005 and they found 53 percent of the people who had disabilities in Europe that could afford to travel, had the time, everything they didn't travel. And the reason was they were afraid of how things might go when they got there. In 20 in 2015, the United States did a survey with the organization called the Open Doors. And the Open Doors Travel and Tourism Survey indicated that people with disabilities are the very best customers. They usually bring someone with them. That's two people. Look at that, two for the price of one. Yeah. They're often elders, you know, because as we age, part of the prevalence rates for disability increase. We get impairments and those those create what we call a disability. Well, let me just stop there a moment and say, I like the idea that a disability only occurs when a society fails to provide an accessibility accommodation. And so that means that if we don't put in a ramp and we only upstairs, there's a disability, you're in a wheelchair. But if we if you're in a wheelchair and there's a ramp, you're a regular shopper, aren't you? Look at you, you know? So that's the deal. And so what can we do to make it better? Make the information about accessibility available where people can find it and help them use that information to plan their trips and to understand the path from where they're parking to where they're going and to help them to do better. Now, let me unpack that a little bit. So when you you really conflated two things here, I'm sorry to say. One is one is the brand outside when I advertise my hotel and I tell the world, you know, the features here and the accommodations here. I agree with you that a lot of hotels that don't don't say anything about accessibility. So they have to they have to make a brand. This is not so easy, but we should talk about it. They have to make a brand that that will speak to accessibility without, you know, having a negative side to it. And the negative side you mentioned, the people say, oh, that hotel, that hotel is reserved for the disabled. You know, we don't want to go there. So how do you make this brand that, you know, that wraps around both things and, you know, doesn't spin anybody off? In other words, both sides of the equation can see that this is going to be an attractive hotel that it's sensitive, that likes people, that it accommodates everyone on both sides of the coin there. And that, you know, it's it's a modern thinking. It's, you know, it's a high ethical moral plane. This hotel is on. How do you do that? How do you brand it? Talk to me as an advertising man. How do you brand this hotel for the world so that it's all positive? It's quite simple. You need only plant a red dot on the forehead of the person you want to advertise to. And in the age we live in, that's very possible. I mean, Google, Facebook, they know who you are. They know what you're doing, you know? OK, that is, you can reach people who have disabilities. They're families and friends and caregivers. They're very accessible. The thing is they don't self identify very much. I mean, in some ways, if you go into a crowded room of particularly older people, say, who here has a disability? You know, nobody's going to want to raise their hand. It's kind of the short buzz, you know? And so it's an unfortunate stigma. A lot of people feel it and it's unfortunate. And it's primarily because of the way we've kind of created that sense of otherness. Truth is, it's just a natural part of the life cycle of every human being. When I met with the Travel and Tourism Bureau, they said to me, well, you know what we liked about what you're saying, Mr. Fuller, is that we have an aging population that is part of our tourism group and they tend to age out. And what you're saying is we could appeal to them to say, come back. You know, we're set up for you, even if you've had a stroke or a physical impairment. And in the cultures that we're marketing all of our travel and tourism to every one of them. And we all kind of know who they are. Those are aging populations, even faster than our own population. And here in Hawaii, we have more people with disabilities and aging people than most other states and communities. So truth is, it would be just a natural part of our aloha, to be sure, and a natural part of our understanding of human beings and the natural life experience of human beings. So basically what we need to do as a travel and tourism industry here in Hawaii is kind of get behind the idea that this is a good idea. In fact, it's one in five people who have a disability about 62 million in the United States today. And then you throw in their families and friends. That's a lot of people in England, Barclays Bank determined it was 53 percent of any of the markets that you might look at. So with over half the people having some engagement with the challenge of disability, what you need to do is kind of just put those features forward in a way that makes sense and reaches the people that could use the information. And so here's what I've been doing for the last 14 years. We've been producing stories about the heroes and sheroes of the community we call people with disabilities. From 196 cities, 48 states, 480 disability organizations, front-run people that were out there working hard to change the laws, to create those rules, regulations and understandings about the needs of people when they have disabilities to create the policies to get the regulations and rules developed. And so those people are the stories that we've collected and we're going to be putting those up online and making them available throughout the United States and around the world. We've been involved in an international smart cities effort. And here's the final step. This is where it's kind of interesting. The tools and technologies we have today of the mobile smartphone are entering a new phase, which includes augmented reality. In fact, they're going to have little computers on your head like the Microsoft HoloLens, the Magic Leaf. And with that, it'll know where you are precisely. It'll be able to then give you information. Sure, that's really good. And you know, I have another idea actually, Gordon. And I'm holding back on telling you this idea, but we're going to take a one minute break. You'll have to suffer through it. And when we come back, I'm going to tell you my idea. And it's not unlike your idea. We'll be right back here on Think Tech, talking about sustainable Hawaii, accessible travel and tourism. We'll be right back with Gordon. Who we hope? Aloha, I'm Jane Sugimura, a host here at Think Tech Hawaii, a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness in Hawaii. We are a Hawaii nonprofit that depends on the generosity of its supporters to keep on going. We'd be grateful if you'd go to thinktechhawaii.com and make a donation to support us now. Thank you so much. Aloha, I'm Sharon Thomas Yarbrough, a host here at Think Tech Hawaii, a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness in Hawaii. We are a Hawaii nonprofit that depends on the generosity of its supporters to keep on going. We'd be grateful if you go to thinktechhawaii.com and make a donation to support us now. Thanks so much. We're here with our old friend, Gordon Fuller, talking about sustainable Hawaii, accessible travel and tourism specifically. And we've established that through the ADA and through other enlightened management processes, yes, the United States has a great infrastructure for disabled people, including guests at hotels and the like, and of course in Hawaii. But then we talked about what's missing and what's missing is maybe we don't brand those hotels, we don't brand our tourist agents, tourist industry as accessible and maybe we should. And how do you do that? And how do you how do you shape the brand? And Gordon was talking about that. But I was concerned that there were two parts to that. One is, you know, the external branding. And the other the other is the call it on the property branding, which you referred to Gordon. Namely, you know, how do I make these special accessibility features known to my guests once they get here? And the suggestion I want to make to you, which goes back into my, you know, my teens, I guess, actually covers both sides of that. Let's go back to the 1950s, 1960s, to a place called Eldred, New York, to a little intersection called Four Corners and there was a summer camp there called Silver Lake. It was part of a larger New York metropolitan nonprofit organization, was one of three or four camps. Silver Lake was special in this regard. It had two kinds of campers. It had very young campers, campers who are five, six, seven, eight years old, maybe. And it had very old campers, you know, and of course, relative age is different now than it was then. But these guys, you know, and women were, you know, in their 60s and 70s and they were the other campers. And the activities that Silver Lake organized for these campers always involved both sides of the spectrum. So if they organized an activity, it would be with the young campers and the old campers together. And the kids loved it because the old campers would do it on them. And the old campers loved it because they were with young, you know, energetic kids. Nothing like being with kids. And so the camp really worked well because it found a spot where these two disparate groups could collaborate together to be campers together. And each side took a lot of value out of that. So what I'm suggesting based on Silver Lake is that, you know, a hotel that really wants to attract, you know, people from both sides of the coin would go out of its way to focus on activities where both sides, disabled and not disabled, could share, could do things together, could get to meet each other, could learn from each other, just like kids and elderly. I can't think of any particular activity, but I'm sure that if you and I sat down for a while, Gordon, we could think of some activities to bring them together. Both sides win. What do you think? Well, you know, one of the things that I always like to kind of bring to people's attention is when we speak of people with disabilities, you know, what are they like? Who are they? It's all of us, you know? It's like life, you know, age. So there is no kind of like non-disabled people. There's temporarily able body. There you go. That's really good. We usually call people. You know, we're talking about your aunties and uncles and cousins and friends, you know? So we're really talking about the Ohana all the way. And for that reason, you know, it's really important to remember it's it's us. You know, it's how do you want to be treated? How do you want to be respected or dealt with? And in truth, we have a very fine professional hospitality tradition here in Hawaii from our low-cost spirits, carrying through all the way through our businesses, the way we comport ourselves and the way we treat other people, the way we kind of skitter away from racism. What would be the point? Who wants to take questionnaire? What is your race exactly, please? You know, just it's a wonderful aspect of Hawaii. It's a place of welcome. And to be honest with you, there's a little bit more polish that could be put on the training. When people are kind to me, often they'll want to take my hand to lead me as a blind person and wrong answer. You know, I have to follow your elbow or your shoulder. And with that, I feel exactly where your feet are. I'm exactly proportionately behind you a couple of steps. And when you step down up, when you duck or go left, I understand that quickly. And it's so easy. And I always kind of say to people very quickly, oh, look how good you are at it also. But indeed, just little things, just learning a little bit of the courtesy, the custom tradition. A lot of people when they have no training, no understanding, they're kind of fearful of people with disabilities. I've had a lot of business experiences where I intimidate people primarily because, oh, my God, I couldn't deal with blindness. People will feel that very strongly. And and they feel kind of incompetent or inadequate. And I kind of try to get past that by saying, you know, I wasn't always a rocket scientist myself about this. As I became blind, I had to learn how to accommodate myself to the world and to be it made me less of an introverted autistic sort of artist guy that I was and put me on a path where I've become quite outgoing and gregarious. And very quickly, people forget that I'm the blind guy. I'll be in business meetings. They'll be handing me the documents saying, you know, look at this, so we're putting up a slide and they'll forget. And that's that's pretty that's pretty OK, you know, because it should be like that. It's not the first thing about me. People would want to pay attention to if they do kind of an oversight of a lot else going on, you know, but but it is my my my joy in life to share with people the fact that you can be rather sanguine about the challenges in life. When you're older, it's not as much fun to adapt and change. But when when you are challenged and you rise to the challenge, you become more than you were before. But let me digress a little bit and talk a little tech with you, because we're tech talk here. Both are at that. Yeah, the new technologies of augmented reality, which are also called the spatial web, is where you stop browsing with a little glass square in your pocket, noodling around with your finger on the little icons. Instead, where you are, what you're doing, who you are, all comes into focus and your little plastic pal there is able to give you the information you need. So as a blind person, my needs for information in the built environment that is amongst buildings, architecture, the world of human creation, requires some narrative explaining some guidance, some orientation. And that is pretty challenging. I'm one of the most difficult customers, which is why I work on these things and design them. As from 20 years ago, realizing someday in the near future, I may be blind. I got busy and started working on the tech. And along the same lines, I looked for a way that I could get other people to pay for it. That's right. The rest of society should step up and put this in place. And so what would be the right answer for that? And the answer was to make it useful to everybody, fully inclusive, for everyone. So if I speak Portuguese, some people might think that's a disability, perhaps, you know, in the world of English-speaking people, you're going to struggle a little bit. The good news is the same knowledge and information I need about finding a bathroom or the front door or the emergency exit or the parking or the best path to the market. All that information is also of interest to Cantonese, Mandarin, Korean people or visitors. And so in getting it done for one, you get it done for everybody. And here's a really good news. The federal government will give you a tax credit for doing it for blind and disabled people. Was that right? That's right. Up to $15,000 for a small business, including a big fat check for five grand from the federal government coming to your business, for taking the time and trouble to annotate geospatially your physical and signage affordances, the information about where's the bathroom, how do I get to it from the front door, from the checkout counter, where are the signs, what are they saying? Because in fact, the law says you're supposed to, if the sign's up for over six days, you're supposed to have some sort of an accommodation for a blind person. Well, how would that work? Well, the answer is you're supposed to be able to ask somebody in the store and they'll help you. The test, we call the ADA, the Lawyer's Full Employment Act. And the reason for that is you can get all the rights you want as long as you're willing to go to court for it. So I don't recommend people do that. I don't want to do that. No, what we want to do is we want to encourage people to be wise, to be smart, take advantage and put in an accessible accommodation in the form of the information about your place of business. Basically, take advantage of 21st century tools and if you do it the right way, cooperating with us, people that are experts in this area, you're able to put this in place and get a check from the government for it and deduct $10,000 on top of that. How about answers? Two of my questions, actually. There's one I was talking about sort of separating the external brand from the internal brand. And that answers the question about the internal brand. If you want to make a statement to both people who are disabled and those who are temporarily non-disabled, as the case may be, then you give information about the easiest course, which includes the easiest course for the disabled. So you're making it more than just the practical path to the bathroom. It's a statement about how your property is working. It's a statement about trying to make it easy for everybody in the process. You're telling everybody how sensitive you are. So I think that's really a good internal brand thing. But the other thing, and it goes further than just tax credits, you know, the federal tax benefits you get for making your place more accessible, is that, you know, query, and this is my last question to you, Gordon, you're an entrepreneur. You know how to take a situation and make it an opportunity. So query, can somebody make money doing this very thing, this accessibility, travel, and tourism? Maybe you do this already, but my question is, you know, how can an investor make money focusing on this for Hawaii or anywhere else in terms of changing the brand and making things more accessible? It's a great question, and I focused on it quite a lot. I've had 20 years to think about it, and I've followed all the new developments in technology, and I've done it from the businessman's side of the desk, you know, which is where I sit. How can I make this work so that there's a payday in it? How does that work for me and the community? So I'm kind of a triple bottom line guy. When we talk about sustainability, there's more to making a profit than just the numbers in the bank account. There really is, what is your contribution to your community? What are you providing that is of value and how are you doing to support the community? So from that standpoint, this is nonetheless very profitable, and it's very profitable because, first of all, you may have done it to help people with physical and sensory cognitive disabilities be better able to access your property and find what they need, but at the same time, that is everybody else also. And so now they'll be able to find you when they're thinking of their trip and planning it, they'll be punching it in saying, where can I go from the Hilton Hawaiian Village and find what I'm looking for in that neighborhood, and that information will be there. You've done it. So the people that can make money from this are the local merchants' association and Waikiki. They can put this in place with their members, and they can make the technology available, have the forms that people fill out to put that information in. It's available for people who today are those rare and few people that do accessibility verification certification. They can be experts on demand. You can do it through your smartphone as a merchant. You can have someone who's an expert certify the accessibility, and you can pay a little extra for that. And when you do that, that person's making some money. They may have a work-at-home job. They may be in another state. Who knows? But we are looking to train people to give them those skills. At the same time, someone has to go out and sell this idea in the community. So there are sales professionals who would be the people responsible for bringing it to the small business community, to the convention and visitors bureau, the community of travel and tourism industry sectors, to say, look, here's how you can use this. Here's what it will do. Here are the kinds of customers you'll be looking at. It hits on so many levels. And then at the same time, in putting together such a system, you'd probably want to brand it and package it in a way that gives rewards, discounts, opt-in, opportunities, yes. And the reason for that is customer experience is everything. And this is the age of customer experience. All that good work, Google, Facebook is doing to mine your data is ever to make it easier for merchants to tune in to what you're about and what you're doing. Unfortunately, it's kind of a brutish approach, and it's not really good at really guessing what you're doing. My girlfriend used my phone the other day, made a purchase. After that, I'm getting all these ads for stuff that I probably wouldn't use. You know what I'm saying? And so that's not a very slick tool, very dull edge. But what if you're a trusted source, like the Merchants Association? And I know you're going to respect my privacy. I would be willing to have, you have the information about my intention in an anonymous way. So I can anonymize my data and say I'm going to the mall to look for a fishing knife for grandpa. And if I'm doing that, it's a much finer focus. And the merchants can then see why I'm here. You're so full of creative thoughts. I really enjoy it. And you know, all of this, all of this at the core of it is making life better in the world. Everyone has an obligation to make life better in the world for everyone. Gordon, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. You are such a good guest. And I hope to see you again here soon, okay? I hope to see you, but then I'd be exaggerating, and I don't really care. Oh, you always say that. You wait to catch me on that. I know you do. Gordon Fuller, a special guy. Take care. Aloha. Aloha.