 Can y'all hear me is this working is this thing even on can you hear me I Don't know which mic it's using. So hopefully it's using the good one. Welcome everyone Start off with we'll have a cool giveaway tonight, too by the way Yeah Waiting for not so dog to pop in and we will begin own real quick Tonight or this weekend. I'm gonna be doing a sell on rights eats calm 40% off if you use the code invisible 40 that's it and Visible 40 and we have some new stuff up there that you weren't able to buy before so there you go Go check it out, and we'll talk about a little bit more later now invisible 40 hopefully you can Hear me well. I don't know Sobby was up at daddy see I can't hear you through the headphones now. You can't hear me through the headphones No, this everybody else hear me. Yeah, I can hear you. I mean, I'm just saying it's not going through my headphones Like it should this linky dink toy didn't work You changed you changed it up. Oh look at that. I can fit through now. Let's do the headphones I got to find out which which which ring light brings out my skin tone. Look at that. I see that I see that Extra fleshy is what you are extra fleshy. Yeah, I haven't shaved in a month. So you really get to see my full the full movie Can you hear my audio any different or is it? No, I hear you fine. Okay, everybody in the audience. Is it is it cool? You're so fun. Yeah, it's echoey a little bit to me, but I don't know what the fuck I'm doing I keep trying to use this little Adaptation tool for this nice mic to hook up and iPhones fucked up. So it is what it is. We're gonna do what we're gonna do We are getting there. Yeah, so tonight. I thought we would go over a little bit because last week a lot of you remember We didn't get to a lot of questions when it came to the the hot slate and viroid Stuff so we wanted to get to a lot of interactive Questions for that. I guess that's I don't know. You know how to word it. Yeah Well, yeah, I mean we for various reasons we had to kill the comments last time so we didn't end up seeing a bunch of people stuff and so I Don't think the viroid is is probably like unless I really pontificate a lot. I don't think the viroid is a whole show But if people have questions if people have general questions that they want to ask Tonight would be a good time to lay them out there Yeah, I thought like one of the things that I really took away from the viroid Topic and I think this is the first thing that jumped out at you. We were talking about, you know, the different I mean different technique makes people use for cloning and if you have a edge that's cut where it's a wound as she called it I Mean you can't use Aerocloners with different strains, you know, if you're if that's what you're doing It kind of wipes out that whole situation for being a viable product in this market I mean there was there's there's an aspect of that and then there's like there's actually There's actually some new tech that coming out for Or not new tech, but there's there's new to cannabis tech that's kind of being pushed right now for cloning Which I think is pretty cool and I actually believe or I believe I should say Is a big addition So I've seen I've seen some people try to get around it, but they're people have been asking about like cloning tech And safe practices and then there's also been a bunch of people that have been asking about You know And this kind of sucks too, but they've been asking about like drying and curing and how to get better weed Which you know to be honest like it's it's actually one of the few things I'm like hesitant to talk about because I You know most corporate people grow shitty weed Yeah, and they don't realize what corners to cut But then I don't necessarily want to deny like a bunch of like home growers and stuff like that better technique either So it's like we're watching this shit anyway It's a weird it's a weird conundrum So if people want to hear about drying and curing tech in a way to get better tasting weed You could start start throwing it up in the comments You know so Another another thing she addressed and a lot of people like I said were arguing about before the Show and even after was the relevance to hops late and Showing up in the progeny of seed now I thought about it all weekend You know a bunch about different clones that have been used that we know pretty sure have hops late One that I know for sure had it when I got it back in the day And we didn't know what it was at the time was Jesus Jesus was well known to have some kind of sickness and later on it got tested. It does have HLV Jesus been used in a lot a lot a lot a lot of stuff and we've never seen any Progeny from any Jesus or anything show any of the dudding traits on their own now is it in there? maybe but I mean The progeny doesn't come up for it in the test. So I that 8% number seems awfully high I mean well not one thing is one thing we should probably mention that's important And I think we brought it up on the previous show is That most of the stuff she was talking about and this is where people get mad at science especially like to use the COVID thing or whatever is because If if science gets proven incorrect They think it's all bullshit, right? But that's how science it's It's correct until somebody can prove that it's it's incorrect or there's a different technique And that doesn't mean that like you know, I mean, it's obviously like what we know at the time Yeah, right and most of what there's what most of what she was trying to express to us about hop latent Because cannabis is not very well studied our other viroids similar to hop latent And other studies done it's there's not a lot of work done specifically on hop latent in cannabis Yeah, exactly. She was trying to give us her best explanation on what was ongoing currently. Yeah and I think that's educated guesses based on available information in other cultivars or not not even just called for other I Don't know species Yeah, and you know and there's an aspect where people are asking about false positives I think with any kind of test there can there there's a there's a there's a decent percentage for false positives that can exist And then I also think that just because you get a negative test once doesn't mean you're exactly in the clear either. Yeah You know, so I think there's that and you know, sadly with the proliferation of Cuttings now these days and the lack of cleanliness and stuff like that I can safely say that like I mean, maybe you can map to speak on this before but In the early days of like clone training and stuff like that. Nobody nobody worried about this stuff at all Not stuff like that. No, no, I mean in the early days of clone training when I first was entering in The term dud had barely just started to even be I think it was even years later a few years later Even like hey, this thing might be a dud. I don't know, you know, you know, there's been for a long time You know, that's one one of the things I think dudding Dudding is a term we use in cannabis to basically describe a plant that's acting unhealthy Yeah, and I don't I think that that hops laden can be a cause of dudding but You know, I also think that there's a variety of other diseases and probably unknown viruses And things like that that could also come up later that are gonna get spread around, you know so You know, I think she was fair and that what she told us was best knowledge Sure I think there's a lot of unknowns and I think that a lot of like the basic cleanliness and maintenance techniques Which are not common in cannabis need to start getting applied. Yeah. Yeah, that's for sure Yeah, all that all that is good technique I've been trying to get people to do that with germinating seeds for a long time using as Sterile technique as they can because it does matter, you know I'm a lot of people do the the old like well if a plant nature drops Seeds in the ground after when they pop up, you know, I can what you know I can do whatever and put whatever and you don't have to be clean to pop seeds But really it does matter if if you're if you're spending a good amount of money on seeds It's it's the really does math that's the highest ratio point, right? Yeah, if you buy a $2 pack of tomato seeds and you don't get that great of a germination rate Nobody cares Yeah, if you give Matt riot $300 and you don't have good tack and four of them don't pop and now you're pissed Yes, so because cannabis seeds are tended to have a tendency to be expensive You know, you probably want to take the small extra steps needed to like Get as much success as you human as possible. Yeah, you know, yeah You know So, you know, there's an aspect where as she was saying on the on the show before You know, I do believe that there's a potential for people to clone out of it You know, you know, I don't think that's an impossibility But like she made a very good point in that the viroid is extremely tiny and all it takes is one little bit of it To be able to replicate itself and slowly come back, you know So what I actually think is Is you know, what people should probably do is, you know, is have a quarantine situation And people put plants into quarantine to check for, you know, russets or or broad mites or other pests or things like that It's probably advisable to maybe get a cheap test a couple of times On an important plan. Yeah, you know, and hopefully We'll have a situation like I was mentioning before where like eventually they'll make nurseries, you know, have a clean bill of health You know, I think so and we've seen we've seen any number of clones of private clone sellers Have to temporarily shut down their clone selling Because you know customers have been buying expensive plants and then it tends up positive um, so That's an interesting question about the super dog. Go ahead. Uh, well You know, uh I would say that Did I there was a lot of uh, when people someone just asked for people that aren't seeing it when I was we were doing All of our super dog seeds. Did we find sour phenos? Uh, and I would say yes, we did Um, not so much in look more in nose You know, um, there's definitely, uh There's definitely, you know, the the the pathway we took to sour the to Super dog is a little different than what happened with sourdiesel Um, but I think that when you cross skunk and chem In certain ways you're going to get certain things that come up And if you look you're careful with that terminology remember most people are going to think you're talking about skunk one when you Yeah, you know, we actually um, we we actually considered today Uh to bullshit for a second. We actually considered doing a A whole show on skunk one Um, because it is such a it's got such a long history Um, and it's got so much misconceptions these days, but it does seem like Sam skunk man might be giving a rendition of his opinion Um, and so maybe we can follow that Because it's always it's always good to get the you know, and and and then you know We'll have an idea of like what because lots of lots has been said Yeah, you know, he's been he's been invited on the show So he knows that he has a standing invitation to come on and talk about anything he wants to to Um, but but so people are clear, um, you know, because matt, you know, matt's right is that, um, You know, sam intentionally bred all skunky roma out of skunk one for a long time That was a claim. Yes. Um, and he's made that claim consistently over a very long period of time And it does seem like the first plants of skunk that he brought over to hulland had a little bit more skunkiness in them than the later ones Um, but uh, you know, there's an immense amount of people that have been looking through skunk one for skunk and not finding it Um, it seems like the skunk that got used in sour Um was a blend of different skunks and then blended into super skunk And then some other accidents. So it's kind of it's it's not it's not a clear path When you say a blend of different skunks, are you saying a blend of different skunk ones or are you using it a different term? um, you know, uh So it's it Matt and I have matt and I have have some connections to the the gentleman who bred that clone Right, and he's given us Um, unfortunately like a lot of these old timers from the 80s, uh, you would like a well written out lineage Uh with exacts And it was mostly he bought things from sssc and from neville that had skunk in it and blended them together for two or three years And then crossed something of that into super skunk And then we got the skunk that became famous Okay, again, are you you say skunk very freely? Are you seeing skunk one? I would I would assume I would assume so because he said he was buying think skunky things from neville and and and uh super city of the seed club Right, so he was he was buying hybrids and he was blending them together for two or three years I believe he even referred to that line as skunky skunk Right skunky skunk. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and and then and then he took that line And the first year that that neville actually released the super skunk Okay, which is sort of a line that puts skunk back into skunk as well Um, so if if if he's correct and he's telling us the truth, which I don't have any reason to doubt It seems like half of the thing that became very famous is a blend of nevels and super city of the seed club work And half of it is super skunk itself from the first year of Um, it's from 1990 Yeah, right and then from that on there was some hermaphroditic accidents and there was this and that and it gets even more convoluted. So it's uh You know in order for in order for neville to find skunk He had to take the skunkiest thing of skunk one that he could find and cross it to a totally unrelated genetic maple leaf Yes and so, you know You know for for whatever for whatever that work that is worth. Yeah And yeah, someone just asked. Yeah, there was there it is it is from virginia Um, there was a gentleman that was uh, you know older than us and involved in dead tour And he he did, you know, they did some breeding but like a lot of a lot of 80s breeding He didn't have a bunch of notes And he didn't come out with this was step one. This was step two. This was step three It's much more general. It's like when we interviewed when you when you and kanza interviewed greg. Yeah It was a few specifics and a lot of mysterious You know, yeah, there wasn't a lot of detail on the nl's as far as specifics. There was a couple things Yeah You know, so um be that as it may like we're not going to actually do uh Um, we're not going to actually do a big skunk one thing But in the it is probably worthwhile to go over it at some point But maybe we'll pick up where you know, we'll fill in gaps and comment on what sam is saying soon Yeah, you know But anyway, uh I have a much I have just like such a much different take on skunk one and everything that it has to do with it like It's just it's a different take because I wasn't around like during those early eras to Have bought skunk one from like the first year it was produced or or even smoked anything like that my only skunk ones Stop started much later, you know in the in the 2000s. So my experience with it is only The clones that we have left the old clones that I've run a skunk one like the cheese and other stuff like that um And other stuff with heavy skunk one influences that I learned over time were very similar to what I am seeing out of out of Skunk one seed lines like the pure from flying Dutch when we got to run But I didn't see anything capable of producing anything like The turps we would see in super skunk or not terms, but this is essentially in super skunk And even looking at everything that skunk one touches and breathes outwards You're just never seeing anything like that in any of it. Well, it's interesting is um Matt and I got to interview correll from super city bc club And one of the questions I can't remember who was when you asked him or what was my section of it, but I can't He did mention that the skunk that got brought over in 84 85 You know was different Than later open pollinations and later readings and and that type of stuff. It was a little raw Yeah, and I think even sam said that there maybe was a small There was a small possibility. You could find something like that in there, but then later on it was it was basically out Yeah, and a lot of the the recent scams that have been going on in the last five or six years are turning on that hope That oh my skunk is old enough that you're gonna find in there this this thing that sam hadn't bred out yet You know, yeah, and so I see some pretty cool comments in the in here There's a uh people were talking about pot of gold which uh pot I love pot of gold Which is uh hindu by skunk one and there's there was another thing You know that was from the flying dutchman And if i'm correct, I believe the flying dutchman was basically a I don't want to say a front for sam But they seems like they bought most of their wholesale seed stock from sam Yeah, because sam was willing to sell wholesale within holland, which was legal and not willing to sell retail You know, uh, and um, you know, there's another guy that just asked if silver pearl we both describe silver pearl differently Yeah, uh, and you know that people have smelling the same grows of the same bud too People have different interpretations of the same thing You know people have different uh people have different, um You know they get different noses off things they can get different effects off things, you know Yeah, uh, and silver pearl is actually an early polyhybrid Yeah, too. So there can be different expressions off it Yeah, yeah You know in that regard It's it's because I believe it's it's early pearl by Um northern lights northern lights by skunk one skunk. Well, yeah, yeah and early pearl is early girl Like I mean it it's it's a it's a hybrid of A whole it's it's got a whole bunch of different stuff It's crazy that it was so consistent too like as far as its expressions being that much of a polyhybrid It makes me wonder how much work went into it beforehand for it to be so consistent like with its expressions that it throws You know, there's another there's a gentleman in the in the thing that was saying that Um now we're getting a little off topic But he was saying that maple leaf indica is probably the last thing that sensei has that is original after the dutch raids I don't believe that to be honest Um, and I know and maybe a little bit of history is Is required there. So, uh, maple leaf was given to nevel by a character named jim ortega And nevel sold it Raw as you as it were Uh at at the seed bank for about three years And then when he got busted and he sold his company to sensei seeds it disappeared off the menu I think matt for what it was like about eight years. It was a long time. It's about eight years Um, and then it reappeared Probably about 1999 it reappeared on sensei's catalog three or four years after nevel had left And so as near as we can determine that was no longer the original maple leaf It was a hodgepodge of a few different maple leaf phenos cross to skunk one Yeah, that nevel had made it made it sensei but was unreleased So it's not pure maple leaf anymore. Um, and then on top of that After the bust, um at some point sensei outsourced most almost all of its breeding to spain So I I would I would love for there to be some original things from sensei left. I just don't put any trust into, um You know, I don't put any trust into it. I've seen stuff from sensei that came out post You know two thousands and stuff like that that looked like super skunk That actually looked like it, but none of it. It was all very skunk one dominant type Sense though. Yeah Yeah, and I mean, you know skunk one sadly it's it's uh, you know, it's got skunk in the name So people really want to associate it with that, you know, but it'll forever be done every few years By the next yahoo that comes in and declares. I've got skunk. I got the original skunk one. It's brand new You know, I'm uh, I'm a little bit more people are talking in the comments again So maybe we'll just kind of ramble for a bit, but people were talking the comments. I thought scott nevel did a lot together Um, that doesn't seem to be too terribly true Yeah, um I I I'm a little bit more of a shanti backer than most in in our crew. I would say but what it does seem is that you know Neville partnered with shanti and greenhouse after sensei And then neville had a partnership a bit with shanti at um at Mr. Nice seeds and neville did sell some of his old collection of seeds to shanti But it doesn't seem that they were heavily involved together for a lot of years in actual breeding projects Was that the sense that you got talking to neville as well? That's the sense I got I sensed a lot of um Yeah, well a lot of you know, there's You know, so anyway, it shanti legitimately by neville's own own admittance bought Neville's own collect old collection of seeds And they certainly partnered together both at greenhouse seeds with arjun and at mr. Nice for a while But in terms of them both being in the same breeding room together doing a lot of work over a number of years It seems like as time goes on that seems less likely than it was before That would be the wildest ego battle I've ever seen That would be you know a star wars level ego battle that'd be cool But be that as it may maybe we could maybe we could scroll back a little bit now because we got we got way off topic there a little bit but um You know when it comes to like hop latent or just clean practices in general um, there's a there's a new You know, I've seen people like get like uh You know like like the restaurant style like you know like red Catch up containers and they squirt a little bit of gel into each plug and stuff like that You know so you don't because one of the big things is that all of a sudden we're learning you don't want to dip a raw cut Into a liquid or a gel that then you dip another raw. It's basically like an open wound Yeah, so if you don't want to spread the viroid you probably don't want to like share the same liquid with hundreds of different open wounds It would be nice if they just had a little squeeze bottle with a little fucking thing They remember so one company used to do that People are doing that and that seems cool. But there is this thing that's going on. There's this gentleman I don't usually give shouts out to people but um But i'll say there's a guy on ig called slow nickel Okay, and he's an agronomist, right? uh, and he mostly does stuff with um, you know, he's He mostly seems like he works in south and central america growing a lot of different kind of crops and vegetables But he makes this really interesting point. Um, which vibes with me really strongly In which he does this thing that's incredibly counterintuitive to me Which is that when you take your rockwell cube or your Router rapid router plug or whatever you're using, right? Yeah He dips just the tip of the actual cut itself into some kind of rooting hormone Yeah, and then he sticks that clone so that the actual cut itself is Not in the cube Okay, so it's actually sticking out of the cube, right? Okay And the reason for that is he said that what you want is that you want that open wound to form a hard callus Yeah, right and then once it forms a callus then the roots come out. Yeah shoot out from there And the reason why it makes so much sense to me is he says if you leave this raw open wound And you stick it in a rockwell cube or you stick it into a rapid router or something It'll shoot out a bunch of roots But it's too moist for it to form that hard callus And then essentially you have an open wound that allows a lot of opportunity for fungal or virus or other various things to get in there Right, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah You know and he's shown a lot of examples Um and a lot of people seem to be really jiving on to his method Right and it does make sense because if you think of like human skin, you know, like it's a big barrier against disease Yeah, right and so, you know the callus is essentially a scab Yeah, you form a hard scab and then the roots start growing out of the you know, and then so that's pretty new For people most people are just using to stick the cutting into a rockwell cube or sticking into a rapid router or whatever and it goes from there Yeah, right And I actually having seen his tech and looking at it and reading about it I actually I absolutely totally agree with him. Yeah, I've been experimenting with it for a while and It makes perfect sense to me and it's changed how I do things now You know, one of the things that you have to do is like a lot of times you'll have like an insert that you'll stick into a tray Yeah, and then you'll stick your rockwell cube or your rapid routers so that actually the the stem that's sticking out is a little elevated Yeah, you see what I'm saying? So it's not just like touching flat against the the tray itself Um, I have no clue I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to hanging out of the Like how are you going to have it hanging an inch above the plug when it doesn't float in the air? So no, it's more like this. So imagine, I mean, this is this is going to look a little salacious or whatever But imagine this is your plug. Yeah, right and most people would just stick it And leave it inside. But what he's saying is that have the actual end Pop out the bottom penetrate the bottom side. Gotcha Pop out the bottom and then if that little callus stick if that sticks out the bottom Then the actual cut end will callus over hard because if you look And honestly like if you guys like if you're if I'm not describing it Well, you can look up slow nickel on ig he has a really good He has some good tutorials on a lot of pictures on it Um, but what it basically what his basic technique is is just dip the rooting hormone a little bit in that cut Have that cut callus or seal off like like a like a scab And then it roots from there and then it doesn't allow this big open pathway highway for You know fusarium or disease to get up into your plant and cause issues. How about air embolisms? Like that used to be the big thing like everybody was Don't get the fucking and I you know as funny as back in the day. I remember buddy showed me this this clone someone showed me this clone tech for for put I just I just want to say for the crew when I when I did the when I did my little visual right there It did feel slightly fifth grade-ish, but here we are, you know Yeah, and for the people on audio that didn't get see he bent over it was real weird. Oh man There we go. So but yeah, if you I don't usually plug people But if you if you want to go look up slow nickel He has a bunch of examples and pictures on his page of the tech That you can go and make them make a lot of sense of and it does make sense to seal the wound To not have an open wound that allows fungal matter and different stuff like that to get in there Yeah, right So the problem with that is that if you're going to do that thing like you were saying where you're going to inject a Bunch of gel into a rapid router or into a thing Um, you know, that's that's that's that's sticking the plant into the cubicle. Yeah You know so And you know like you were saying before Um in terms of slowing down hop latent, um, it makes area flows shitty technology Yeah, you really better make sure that the clones you're putting in an area flow are 100 clean Yeah, because you absolutely will spread it to every other clone in that area flow Yeah, or in that in that, you know Area cloner or you know, whatever whatever brand you're you're familiar with It's just a bunch of raw wound cuttings getting sprayed by the same liquid over and over and over and over again So it's a breeding house for disease Yeah, I never liked those things because I just couldn't ever keep it consistently cleaning like all it took was one little Pathogen vector and that was it and it would be in the motor. It would be everywhere in those damn things Yeah, I mean if you if the biggest issue with those is that you want to keep your water temperature in the mid 60s Yeah, um, that's where you get the most oxygen. Huh? Yeah a chillers kind of nice Yeah, and then and then on top of that even if you have fungal diseases like say pithium in your water Um, pithium can't actually reproduce below 68 degrees. Oh interesting. It absolutely can't Yeah, which is why like in rivers and streams or ponds or whatever if you see cold water It's usually clear. Yeah, and warm water is usually not interesting In that regard. Yeah, um, and so, you know, they're uh You know, I all of a sudden my my uh, I apologize everyone my my comments paused and now they just unpaused and now there's a million things going on But but anyway, um, you know cloning tech He it does seem like um He is showing cloning tech that makes a lot of sense And just as a general as a general vibe ceiling sealing off the wound You know and not allowing and not allowing rock going on there is a big deal You know, um, and so, you know, people might have to change I mean, I used to I used to dip all of my cuttings in the same solution So it really in order to slow down the hop latent or slow down other diseases now that we're worried about you really kind of have to look at like your whole process Yeah, and look at every step because you can't do all you can't do most of the steps, right? And then have a centralized thing where you're screwing it all up Yeah, I knew a lot of people who would keep moms and use aerocloners to you know Re-reinvigorate their moms, you know, keep their rooms going and that Might be a technique of the past the big the big problem that I used to run I used to run aerocloners when I ran water culture The big issue that I had with them when you're running them in soil or something else is that If you use a rapid rudder or you use a rock wool plug or anything like that It just gives the the clone itself an anchor Yeah, you can have like uh, you can have a rooted cutting with beautiful roots all coming off it And then you transplant it into some soil or whatever else and if you don't stabilize it the right way There's nothing really it's just a stick with some roots and it has a tendency to move around a bunch Yeah, you know so But really what it is is that he's shown it a bunch of times a lot of times uh root rot or fusarium or Pythium or whatever else can go right up into your plant And a lot of times your plant can recover but those plants end up yielding less than others Or being weaker. Yeah, and it seems like it was just an unrealized weak point in a lot of people's cloning method Which is cool because now that one of the there's not been that many benefits of legal weed In my opinion. Yeah, but one of them might be that some actual agronomists and actual people can bring some different techniques that You know might might improve You know cannabis culture And and how we do things Now before I before I forget. I want to say some things. Um, I hadn't even told you yet, but uh land race genetics I think in the coming week or so and this is going to be on their time over in afghanistan Or pakistan. I can't remember which part he's in right now, but he's going to take us through a field as they're harvesting Over there live. Oh, wow. I know us isn't that fucking cool So he's going to try to set it up with the farmers there so we can go live from the fields In the mid east essentially to watch some of the harvesting go down some of the technique And maybe help us talk to some of the farmers and translate for us So it it'll it might be at 2 a.m. Or 3 a.m. Or 4 a.m. But i'm going to wake up and do it whatever time it is because that will be freaking amazing It's the other side of the earth somebody commented. I seen a pic of that nl 5 tell us about it I don't know what you're talking about with that I put up a pic of nl 5 today. Oh, and it was good. Um, yeah, we have a whole episode on Northern lights with seattle gregs So please go go watch that if you want to learn about northern lights We have most of our episodes touch something on something northern lights at some point, you know Yeah, pakistan to raw valley. Thank you. It's one of the building blocks. Yeah And because it's so ancient there's a lot of there's a lot of funny claims popping up now Um about um, you know ancient nl 5 lines Recently rediscovered, you know this and that pure nevel this that all that. Um, yeah How would y'all rate nl 5 haze on a 1 to 10? I still I still gotta read some more stuff too real quick before you jump into all that. Oh, sorry. Yeah, that's all right. Um uh No, go ahead go ahead. I think uh, I think nl 5 haze is the most successful publicly released hybrid in marijuana history Yeah, and I think there's probably more high quality, uh Clones from from that line that are still alive today and circulated than probably any other line Yeah Realistically speaking that's actually why I rate it so highly. It's not just personal preference It's that there's literally like usually we're lucky if there's one or two at most Um, you know cultivars that have survived from their original era that we know where are it is what it is Um, and with nl 5 haze, there's probably like over 10 Yeah, which is pretty incredible for something that was basically from 85 88 89 to uh Um, you know 95 or 96 or something I think it would probably be fair to say cookies bags each stump the shit out of nl 5 haze as far as cuts distributed now Nowadays, um You know what? I mean like I think that one probably swept the market unfortunately. I don't know about all that Yeah But what I'll what I'll say is that proof will be in the pudding so You know, um a lot of these nl 5 haze cuttings that are still around and kept are 25 to 30 years old Right, we'll give we'll give cookie another 15 or 20 years And we'll see how many of these original clones are held on to and hoarded by future generations Yeah, because that's really the key to staying power. You can have all the hype you want Um, but you know it really better be good to have people keep coming back to it So time will tell you know, um it you know One of the one of the things about cookie is that it's so much more modern than nl 5 haze You would think just by the law of averages. There would be way more of it. Um that would survive Yeah, but the only reason why the only reason why it's going to survive that long Or you're going to have that many cookie cuts survive for that long is if people really love it and really appreciate the smoke Yeah In my opinion, I think so. Yeah, and I think you're right. Cookies probably We'll see if it'll stand the test but you know I will say that that's not exactly a fair comparison because what I was basically doing is comparing things to like actually released seed lines You know where cookies was more like it got famous as a cut and then bag seeds occurred And then various hybrids occurred where you know, um, it's not like ak47 or nl 5 haze or silver pearl or something Where you could buy seeds of it. Yeah for a number of years from a company Yeah, you know And then nl 5 haze never actually really ruled the market Everybody cry baby is is uh is commenting on that. It's true super skunk outsold it a lot nevel said There was other things that were a lot more popular. I'm just saying that I don't think any cut I don't think any seed line has as many different phenos that have survived as long Yeah, I think that that might be fair to say You know, I mean because there's there's a number of them in europe And there's a number of them in america and you start adding all those ones up And all of a sudden you're at, you know, 10 or 12 clones that are 25 to 35 years each I have a theory and I think cry baby probably has a similar theory based on what we see I know we've talked about it is that Super skunk Might have a similar history, but we just don't know enough about the cuts that are out there that are super skunk cuts yet That's what I think well one of the things that's that is uh That really sucks from a historian perspective is that Americans especially are very good about giving counterculture nicknames to their weed And so a lot of a lot of the original genetics that came over in the 80s and 90s are obscured Because they got some they got a name. Yeah, and then we don't know what they are anymore So we know that there was an enormous amount of super skunk that was sold But it was probably given nicknames Yes, you know we like we believe that we believe that the that it's likely that the puck Is a hash plant from nevel. Yeah But it got the nickname the puck with one crew And then it got the nickname the skelly from another crew Kelly has plant Huh? It's called skelly hash plant. You know, I mean the snow I've talked about that before the snow was called skunk 5 in florida Yeah, and then it was called eugenes snow in glass blower circles in eugenes It was called humbled snow when our buddy Caleb got ahold of it in the late 90s You know, uh people talking about the dog shit the dog shit was called electric boogaloo Um matt and I matt and I and friends of ours have been like debating whether or not we think what we think that is Um, but a lot of plants got nicknames And um those nicknames obscure You know what origin it might have come from And so far because phylos is a liar and other groups are liars we Haven't I mean it would be amazing If we had like a a genetic ability to test things and that correll and nevel and and serious And these various groups had their original shit And you could just they could just put that up into a database and then you could map out what came out of it Yeah, I have um, I also have a conversation soon that I was telling you about with, um uh Mrs. I want to pronounce her name right vergara. I want to say from, um Um, um cornell university their their cannabis breeding program And I'm very interested in talking with her and she's interested in talking with us because the scientific community is having a hard time understanding why The clones that they have now currently are not lining up with what they're seeing in the actual genetic data And when I was talking with her I was like well There's a lot of reasons why because what you're given is these legacy clones that you guys think you have probably aren't what they say They are or aren't what leafy because they're they're relying a lot of things like leafy for their genetic data Like looking at oh leafy says it is xyz. So it must be xyz. Let's enter it into our little database and that's where the problem's always going to be with with, uh Uh academia versus traditional Farmers because there's a pretty small group of people that know And then it's even harder to know that you have the legit cut And then even for historians like matt and I and Caleb and others and stuff Sometimes like the information that we think we know gets turned on its head Yeah A little bit. I mean matt and I if you want to talk about the dog shit for a minute Um And just so everybody knows this is like absolute speculation on my part But a lot of people have thought that the dog shit is an old nl5 haze, you know Right. Um, I have I have thought perhaps that it is a old Silver pearl by haze, you know, which was called that in neville's catalog and then later it was just called silver haze from sensi Yeah, um, and that would explain why it's prettier That's what I would explain because it doesn't really actually look like the cough or the a5 And it's not as wild as that. It's actually a much prettier hybrid But it has the haze effect and it certainly has that neville's You know that neville's like feeling to it Um, but it looks like it has something else in it and that that strain was available from about 88 on Um, it was available from neville's catalog and from sensi Um, and uh, you know, that's total speculation, but there's not very many things it came from All we know is that it came out of minneapolis minnesota area in the early 90s And came west Um, and the rest of it is just observational I was thinking nl5 skunk one haze because I've seen a lot of pretty nl5 skunk one haze Um, like from from delta nine labs. They did their fruit of the gods and that was an nl5 skunk one haze or like, uh That's a perfect example So silver pearl times haze Would be early pearl nl5 skunk one Exactly. It's it's really close. So you just basically described You know hairs, uh, you know, um, and i'm not I don't that's just complete speculation on my part due to the timing of the Seeds available what the plant is telling me the fact that the plant is prettier and quicker Than most of the other straight nl5 haze f ones Um, but it's just a guess. Yeah, but it's a it's a good guess and I think it's fair because you can look at it and see Um, if i'm looking at dog shit, it has the it has a lot of resin production for like an nl5 haze If we're in nl5 haze has really good resin production and it goes to the edges and tips of the leaves even on some of the Not families, but bigger leaves, uh water leaves that aren't families And I remember neville telling me that trait specifically was from skunk one. So we know it has skunk one in it somewhere I think based on what neville said so that I think you're you're uh, Silver pearl is very very interesting, uh synopsis. I mean, yeah, so, you know, could it be it could be, you know I don't know it's certainly like I said the seed the seed was available During the time that it popped up in minnesota Um, you know, there wasn't honestly barely any haze hybrids available on the market then I've grown personally a lot of skunk one haze Uh from sam. Yeah, it definitely isn't that Yeah, it's got other things in it, you know, and so but you know, it also could be Something unknown that turns us on its head, you know, yeah, could be Uh, oh boy, you know people ask me about stem rubs Uh, you know stem rubs are I there are some turps occasionally that come off stems Um, you I would put myself in the in the classification of in veg It's the rare plant that I get much off a stem rub in vegetative growth. Yeah I mean, I can smell stuff But it rarely does it transfer to flower for to mean anything to me other than this plant smells like this in veg I mean interestingly that I lost I lost it in the fires, but that old tango cut I had that was from the early 80s Yeah, you could be carrying a tray of of you know of one gallon pots or something and you would get widths of citrus Yeah, even in veg, but it's pretty rare In yeah, I mean, I always tell people like if you want to smell roadkill scum Go get like the poodle nuts cut or even an urkel in veg Take a cut sniff it. I mean, but but it doesn't transfer to fucking flower Unfortunately like urkels great. It's very grapey. It has some skunky tones in it, but mostly grapey and sweet So yeah, I mean it it not everything transfers Unfortunately, a lot of people like I've seen breeders be like, yeah, the shit fucking reaps and then it's skunky And it's like, oh, yeah, they give you like a mean They give you like a sommelier list of smells and almost and maybe their schnauz is just a lot better than mine And their brain works on a different level, but I am always amazed at some of the depth that people can get off a basic stem rub I'm not saying it's impossible. I have had some plants that definitely gave me some turps that were identifiable and in veg I'm just saying for me personally. It's it's it's more rare Um, you know and so you know and it's usually something simple to me like citrus Yeah, it's not like it smells like leather with hint of raw cherries and a backbone of coffee It's it's yeah, I don't get a lot of complexity. It's usually something simple shining through You know on that level And uh, you know, I never hear is is I smell chlorophyll Like that's what that's a one thing I definitely smell in veg when I rub something is a shit little chlorophyll And people are asking me. What do I think about the you know? I I did get a couple of uh Caleb selections from Matt and Caleb's uh Nl five outgrow that they did when they you know, they grew a bunch of plants But I In my part of california. It is extremely hot and nasty especially this summer in summer Uh, and so I was waiting for more opportune weather to give those a shot Yeah Real quick, I'm gonna talk about we have the the riotese.com sell right now I want to see how many people actually listen to this buy stuff So the the coupon code is invisible 40. It's going to work for this weekend 40 off anybody who uses it So if if you use it, I'll know you watch the show and you get to say 40 and that's pretty cool We put up some red menace, which is the boba Flow hybrid the blueberry stone, which is the wedding cake blue bonnet The blue cream, which is the we were talking about silver pearl tonight. That's the the perfect pearl from hip sweet Which is a silver pearl s1 crossed to the blue bonnet. So all those are up there. Those haven't been dropped Before I don't think except for the wedding cake one early on And invisible for you to get your 40 off. So enjoy. There we go. People keep commenting on my beard You know, I uh, I do I do a lot. I'm I work outside a lot in summer And so it it helps with uh spf Yeah, it helps protect me from aging You know faster than I already am Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's handsome the salt and pepper. I've only got a little bit I don't know about salt and pepper. It's getting a little whiter on that level Yeah, a little more salt a little more salt a little more salt a little less pepper, you know Yeah, um But uh, but yeah, you know, uh You know, they uh, we'll we'll see, you know, I think matt and Caleb they're gonna do they're gonna do some further work With that nl5, you know line hybrid, whatever it might be Um picking out phenos that they like and seeing what's going on So we have we actually have some, um We have some really big big projects coming up. Not just me with, um, csi But the whole group So there's a few things we'll be able to talk about soon But I'm really fucking stoked. We got some big collaborations coming up with csi on many levels. So Uh, yeah, I mean the homie what's good about the homie is that he uh, Not only does he do stuff that interests him in terms of what he thinks might be like, um, You know modern cultivars and stuff like that and modern hybrids But he also does reproduction of old seed stock. Um, he's very willing to take Uh dubious seeds with a story and run a bunch of them and see You know, he'll let the seeds he'll let the plants tell him what he thinks of it later on Yeah, you know, because uh, sometimes good seed stock comes from scandalous characters Yeah, uh, you know and all that and so, you know, he does fem seeds regular seeds Experimental projects that type of thing. So You know, uh in a land of like let's smash together all the most popular cuts today Um doing some of that other kind of work that doesn't really you know might not fly off the shelves as fast But it's still valuable. It's really is really important One one I was he was telling me about the other day and I was like because I always give him shit like He'll make stuff and he'll put it on his site sometimes And not announce it anywhere. Not a fucking word. He'll be like, yeah, no one was really interested in that And I'm like, bro, did you even tell anyone? Did you tell them? Because I didn't know that you put it out He was talking about amendo perps um cross to I think it was a blackberry widow from jojo rizzo and it was um It was elks. I think it was elkslayer who made it originally and calum took it to f3 And if if people remember blackberry widow, um, it's very magenta red pretty Um and meadow perps can spit that too and he bred this in that red direction and he's got an f3 Seed run that he did ages ago like eight years ago It's just been kept in the freezer, you know and still got perfect germ rates, but He never really sold them, you know things like that blow my mind Even uh multi-stage breeding of any kind uh in today's economic environment is rare Yeah, very though. It should be supported. Um, because like most breeding projects, uh, you don't get what you want in one step Yeah, um buckshot. Yeah, the hawaiian life was doing great in um baker's sales heat outdoors too It was it was really well shockingly because we were getting up into the 118s 120s this year 60 days of over 100 We uh, we had california had one of the worst heat waves in modern memory Uh, just this last in the you know after labor day, which was really unfortunate You know, um, it took my a lot of my friends told me up in meadow and stuff like that that they're uh, they don't think their weed is as nice Oh, I believe it because the heat wave. Yeah Yeah, yeah Well, that's weird because when some of the breeders saying that the more heat the more skunky it is I believe so. That's funny You know, I mean, I you know, they're I when it gets to that extreme heat It's just damaging Nothing's happy. You know, you don't want to be 115 118 and then 80 or 90 degrees at night, you know Yeah, that's just that that's just not going to make anything happy And I do think that like one of the things that makes meadow and southern humble Trinity and things like that one of the really nice places to grow outdoor cannabis is that you get a nice cool stretch at night It might be 100 degrees in the daytime, but it gets into the 50s at night And that temperature differential I think brings out the crystal content the turps some of the development I think that make like I always noticed that like people in like grass valley or people that were more inland in california They would get these ginormous plants from the same strains But I didn't think they were quite as people from there probably gonna get mad at me But I didn't think that they developed. I didn't think that their region developed You know, I just think that you know, if he hits 55 or 60 degrees at night or 48 or something like that It brings out something in the cannabis that if it only gets down to the 80s. It doesn't yeah I could you know So, you know, and I think too it's like those cold snaps Uh, or you know, it gives the plant it's just like humans Like they say that like one of the biggest dangers with heat waves is when it gets really warm at night Um, your body doesn't have a chance to recover from the day Yeah, and so one of the biggest dangers is is extremely warm nights for humans And I think the same thing to be true for cannabis like the cool nights gives the plant an ability to recover from a really hot day Yeah, and if it's 88 degrees at 11 o'clock at night, um boy Yeah, there were there were many nights here where it wouldn't get under 100 all night. It was fucking Unreal. Yeah, so, you know, so I from Multiple friends have told me that they did not think that They don't think their plants are quite as which sucks for the current the current market and the current economics of things, but It was it was a poorly timed heat wave Yeah, and unusually late, you know unusually brutal And yeah unusually brutal for sure so, um Yeah, I don't know I I But you know, there's there's an aspect of of That's one of the things about climate change if you were that Is really interesting in the sense that a lot of times in not just in cannabis But another agriculture you pick spots that tend to suit what you're doing Yeah, and if the climate shifts it might not it might not suit what you're doing as much Yeah, you know as an indoor grower I didn't really take into account how much The weather in bakersfield would affect Even indoor growing like it's when it gets to a certain point It's so brutal that that it does affect indoor growing even, you know, like trying to keep the house cool while you're running fucking X amount of lights it's gnarly. It's not even that hot. There's an there's an old-ass term We used to use in the height of the indoor days summer bud Yeah, summer bud was not as nice Yeah, and you know as a lot of other types and honestly like I You know where I live in Mendo like granted I get to use the outside which is nice, but A lot of people would shut down in summer. Yeah, because they wouldn't grow as nice or herb Yeah, and back in the day you could get away with like a little bit lesser indoor But right now the market is just ugly so You know summer run bud can be you know, there there's uh, I mean, I don't even know what to talk about when it comes to the market Uh, it's ever it's ever changing and very painful and has a bunch of people very nervous and You know so Yeah, I think we've delved into that depressive fucking talk enough Yeah, we're everybody's feeling that that that is is deeply involved in the weed scene where it's not just a hobby Even people that it's just a hobby look at the electric bills Look at it. Look at how everything's going especially in california even hobby growers are starting to not be able to afford to grow Yeah, I mean california sadly, um, you know, its power is just through the roof Yeah, you know, so even just keeping yourself cool like the human part of your family cool Uh can be a lot of money Yeah, my mom will live in like 100 degree weather inside her house because she's an old miser But um, and if she hears this, sorry mom, but um Her electric bill this last month was like 600 dollars, which was outrageous for her She's never had anything even that fucking close because she will live and eat without any kind of ac Just because she's cheap and that blew her fucking mind the 600 dollar electric bill hitter. So I would imagine everybody's having a rough time with that Yeah, and you know, and then obviously like, you know in california, especially pgne got Got made liable for a number of these, uh, incredible fires And they cast the buck and so yeah, I mean they you know, what are they going to do declare bankruptcy and go out of business and you don't have power Yeah, no, it's a monopoly too. Is there a reason we're allowed to have a monopoly for an electric company? It's it's not necessarily a monopoly because I don't you don't have pgne down there. Yes It's all the only thing we have the only thing you have is pgne interesting. Um, you know the option It's the only option. I mean It's hard to have a bunch of competition because who owns all the transmission lines Yeah, who's responsible for maintaining all the poles and all the power and all this and all that it's not something like You can just be like, oh well t mobile versus at&t versus this versus that it's it's a little there's a lot of infrastructure involved Yeah, the water companies here are the same way. You don't have a choice on that You don't have a choice on garbage and you don't have a choice on electric company You know, so it uh, it's you know, I mean when um You know when I first moved to mendo All the all the diesel grows in the woods or whatever, you know diesel was a dollar Yeah, now it's super expensive. Yeah, you know Before you know, I this is gonna date me but like before I was I had an eight lighter before Before the enron fake scandal Yeah, 2000 in 2001 where they they lied about how much like that california had a power crisis Oh, that that shit. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, my eight lighter was never more than 350 bucks a month Yeah, and then they raised the rates right after that and it was 12 to 1500 Yeah crazily. Yep. Um, and so it's a great There's a great documentary on that called enron the smartest guys in the room Yeah, anybody wants to watch anything on it. It's it explains it in detail how how They played they played us in california And they actually got us to lock into super long term extremely high power rates because the governor was worried They were going to get even worse Yeah, and even though they went down for fraud and a bunch of the bunch of the top executives did long prison terms We petitioned the federal government to break the contracts because they were signed with a company fraudulently cheating california And the bush administration didn't let us out of the didn't let us out of it Shocking so It's just been it's been unfortunately for california Growing indoor has been increasingly expensive. Yeah, definitely prohibitively expensive prohibitively expensive and the you know, sadly the You know the price of indoor is also is not heading and you know, it's not like going up with the cost of doing business Yeah, no, it's crazy. It's only sir. So, um, it's really pinched a lot of people unfortunately Yeah, you know in that regard so um Yeah, I mean it uh um There are certain places like I think there's certain places and in like in in trinity and there's other areas that tie into like hydroelectric power Right where the power is a lot cheaper But everywhere that people like to live in california for the most part like is expensive Yeah, yeah, even like I said bakersfield used to be like one of the last cheap Little bastions for for cheapness in california to be able to afford a home, but that's done. That's long gone now so, yeah Being poor doesn't really work in california too well anymore a fork Um, you know trinity the problem with trinity is just it's like you might as well live swiss family robinson You know it's remote is it and they've been up there. Yeah, yeah, my buddy was just siskew county has southern organ power and it's cheaper There's some hydroelectric that comes out of organ. So there's certain counties in far northern california that have way way nicer power than um Any of the population centers where most of us live? I actually want to ring rings on for a show. I think you'd be awesome awesome awesome both of youtube shooting the shit Yeah, if I could convince him he would be good one day. He's a super weed nerd. He's been breeding for a long time He has his own take on weed He's pretty he's pretty sarcastic Yeah, he's got he is you know Him and I have done a number of different projects together and we have a lot of similarities in terms of like our approach to things and stuff so Yeah You know, yeah, it uh You know, there's not um, there's not you know, there's uh You know people that that crack seeds every year and grow different seeds every year outside and do breeding projects every year That's I don't want to call them a dying breed necessarily, but they're rarer than they used to be Definitely. Did I tell you I'm doing a new UFO podcast Tuesday? You did not I I am gonna do my friend nick and it's be called invisible residents and Tuesday We're gonna have our first recording of us talking for the first time like Trying to figure it out. So yes, I didn't know if you'd want to do it But I know your UFOs aren't necessarily your thing But yeah, we're gonna give it a go and see if anybody gives a shit, but it would be interesting Especially from a skeptical point of view on UFOs I bet yeah, he um, I will say one thing about my buddy rings is that he comes up with a series of Very inappropriate seedline names And hashish names That sounds familiar He does not I would I would actually have to say that he might he he might have the most inappropriate That I'm aware of. Yeah, really. Oh, which one is it? Can you can you say this name? Can I say it? Can I can I pull them out? Oh, sure. Um Do uh, uh, he has one called uh, your sister's innocence Yep, um, I love it. I love there's another one. There's another one called butt stuff Yeah, butt stuff's a great one. I think that's that's how me and him first started talking If you cross butt stuff to your sister's innocence, you really start getting places Sure, do he had a he had a hashish line for a minute that you remember heavens gate Yes Because those that's probably right up your alley with all the UFO weirdos So yeah, remember how they all had like the adidas suits and like the shoes Yeah, right. So He had this image of like two nike shoes pointing up And then the adidas jump shoot and it ends at the knees and then like a and then like a spaceship You know, um, the clubs had a hard time Uh promoting the uh, the the heavens gate Uh, the yeah, the heavens gate hashish line. It was uh, it was a little too risk gay Perhaps a little too a little too morbid the humor was so black. It was ultraviolet Yes, yeah, that is that rings humor humor so black. It's ultraviolet Yeah, uh, and then there's and then there's ones that are um that are worse than that that didn't even make the public cut So, oh wow. Yeah, I love it, you know, but yeah, I would I would have to say there's other ones There's other ones. I won't say but one of my favorite is yours. I mean, how do you get more? Your sister's innocence, you know, that's too good. That's too good You know, but I mean he's he's actually been in Mendo longer than I have. Um, I moved here in in 98 He moved here in like 94 Yeah, which is definitely a different time and so he's been here through a lot of different eras And we have been talking a bunch actually about how You know, we watched an enormous amount of people pour into our community Yeah, as the grain rush happened And now that the prices crashed we're watching all these people pour out mass exodus. Yeah Yeah, there was a lot of people that came here for different reasons a lot of money And as that has gotten tighter they fled Maybe I need to move up now when it's when the getting's good and everybody Yeah, I mean it uh it uh where can I find your sister's innocence? Um, you know your sister's innocence is a fleeting thing. It's only there for so long and then once it's gone It's gone. You know, I mean it's gone. It's pretty hard to get it back. You know Check your little rest stop once it's uh once once it's gone. It's gone. You know, it's it's a brief period of time You know, it's a brief period of time So But yeah, but you know Mendo Mendo is probably going to go back to somewhat depopulated and weird Yeah Because there was a lot of rich kids that moved up here and faked being hippies or whatever in order to grow weed and have Spending money and there was a lot of people that moved here for different reasons. There's a lot of people that came up here and bought property Um and grew for a few years and then farmed it out to friends and went and lived in the bay Or went and lived in la or went and in santa rosa or whatever And you know gotten they just like, you know took a skim off the lifestyle to do whatever they wanted Yeah, and the economics of that are all trashed. So it's very likely that um in the next four or five years a lot of uh Mountain properties are going to start popping up Probably mountain properties that are reasonably set up to you know, yeah in that regard so Makes sense Um, you know and and you know Mendo still remains one of the better places to grow weed Yeah, it's just a matter about you know survival and whether or not you like to live in the country Whether you or not you like to turn up in weird fields with your soul missing With your soul missing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no, that's that's that's uh, what was that show called murder mountain? That's humble, isn't it? That's humble. Yeah, and that's that's that's obviously, um, it's exaggerated to some degree Of course, but it's also no, but it actually it's also true the area that they're talking about is this place called Alder Point Road outside of garberville. Yeah And one of the things that made alder point road pretty famous is that there's a lot of places in humble Mendo that are big parcels Say like 40 80 160. That's kind of how they got divvied up, uh legally Yeah, um and alder point road had a bunch of you know, four acre six acre 10 acre 12 acre Right, so it meant a lot of weirdos got more tightly packed together Yeah, and it was a cheap place to land In humble blow it up for a bit and then try to get out somewhere better Yeah, you know, so you get a bunch of weirdos all on top of each other living too close to each other If you're all on uh, if you're if you if you've got a bunch of 160 acre parcels or a bunch of 80 acre parcels You have some distance from people Yeah, if you have a bunch of three acre six acre four acre eight acre little parcels Then you're all kind of stacked up on one another Yeah, and then you know, there's more interaction. There's more weirdos Yeah, definitely the heels them heel weirdos So, uh, so have you confirmed with your your buddy tom hill if he's going to do the show or not? You know, um speaking of hill weirdos I don't think it would be insulting. Uh, we are hopeful We are hopeful to soon have tom hill on the show Uh, I don't think it's going to be live It won't be live. Um, he'll only be audio He's probably only going to be audio. I'm probably going to have to go honestly visit him Yeah, um at his spot Um, but he has lived on one of the most notorious areas of Mendocino County since the mid 80s Yeah, uh, and so that in itself is an enormous Load of stories. He's got an immense amount of weed history in there And then how we sort of got famous outside of meadow and our little circles Is he became active on the forums in the early days? And uh, matt can speak to this too. Um, you know, but he was along with vik high Uh, and a number of other people he was kind of a giant on the early forums in a way He created tom hill's haze Um, he's credited with deep chunk, which some people Huh x18 ptk Yeah, all kinds of shit He's been around a lot of the old school growing families and a lot of the old school growing techniques He's seen all the different eras from the camp and the 80s into the 90s into 215 Um, uh, you know a deep chunk. I didn't he actually hear it called deep chunk because in mendo we called it monkey balls yeah Some people called it deep chunk. Some people called it, um, uh, hindu death cabbage Uh, it had had a number of different names, but it probably is the closest thing to an actual like I see a lot of times. Uh, the chemist is different, but the chemist is also still alive Uh, and someone that tom could speak on extensively. So i'm actually really excited um To maybe to maybe chat with him Uh, and he's he's definitely a little bit reclusive Um, but we're hopeful to be able to do sort of like a private recorded thing that we could put up later Yeah, um, and he is uh to both matt and myself. I would say He's sort of a an elder a hero Someone that both of us looked up to while, um You know, uh while we were learning how to how to breed I still do. I mean he talks shit with the best of them too like And I don't know growing up reading his shit talk like the shit. He would say I'd be like damn I want to be like that dude. He doesn't fucking take no shit No, he was pretty famous for being caustic online And on one of the lives, um, I called him a cantankerous old man And he reached out to me to say that he's mellowed. Um, which is pretty funny. Um, but uh But I think I think very highly of him and he's really he's like people throw this this term around lightly Are, you know too lightly in my opinion, but tom is a legitimate Cannabis og Yeah, I agree. He's a he has he has created a bunch of uh, really cool lines Uh, he's been around for an enormous amount of history. He's a super character Uh, he was important in the forums Um, a lot of people have bred with his work Uh, he is he's a badass. So every every serious breeder. I know has been inspired by Tom Hill in some way in his word every serious breeder. I know Yeah, he's an he he at this point. He's an elder in the in the breeding community um, and his work speaks for itself and he I'm not going to name where it is But with the some of the some of the areas that he's lived in for a long time Are what I consider to be the beating heart of mendice the mendicino cannibocene Um from way back in the day So it would be super cool And everybody that's listening tonight, um, you know, hopefully Um, he's someone to listen to he's someone to look up to Uh, and it's not easy to be a cannabis lifer No, no, no, no, um, it is not Yeah, and not in coming from his era too like I say this all the time like It was it was just as dangerous back then to deal with as it was anything else So a lot of people had to fuck with a lot of stuff and it was a different time, you know Different kinds of characters were involved. So what's cool about that perhaps is that The I don't I can't predict exactly where the conversation will go I'm supposed to go up there and barbecue with him perhaps and Maybe I'll you know have a wide ranging conversation, but um, it could you could you he could talk extensively Just about the history of where he's at He could talk extensively about a bunch of his own breeding He could talk extensively about the strains and the type of things that were around in the various eras Um, there's a lot of different directions. You could probably have a series Of talks with him about certain subjects and really get some places. So Um, hopefully it happens soon. He's expressed interest Um, he likes what matt and I are doing which is extremely humbling Yeah, you know I generally didn't even think he knew the fuck I was like that's that's where it's at, you know Like different era different everything. So yeah, it's cool. Yeah, super cool You know, so we'll see I can't predict when or how soon or whatever, but there's been some interest and So when that shit happens people should really listen because Um, you know, he's been in it to win it for a long time And he does have another interview out. So I think it's coming out soon So definitely keep your ears full for that. Check it out. Yeah, he does he does and regardless of what platform it's on He's work listening to Absolutely, we're both, you know, I don't actually listen to a lot of other weed podcasts because they kind of drive me nuts Um, but I will be listening to that one because of of who it who he is Yeah, I'm gonna listen to the podcast for that one. I'll even give it the plug Yeah, I mean I might even I might even listen to the uh to the the fucking gypsy one, but I wouldn't go that far Yeah, I don't really I don't have any interest in hearing fucking. I'm just I'm just curious what what spin he spins Yeah, I mean, you know, I wouldn't interview that guy Even though he's a you but you know, but I I'm curious. I am a little bit curious Um, but you know, we'll see I doubt that that guy will ask him the right questions Yeah You know, I mean you can only that's the thing though. Like if if you if you're new to breeding, what are you going to ask Tom Hill What would you know to ask him? What forums are left for you to peruse to to go look, you know what I mean? Like it's it's it's hard It's a hard thing to do. So it'll be different. Um, but I'm excited either way There's so I I I've been trying to research the chemist for many years And have gotten like absolutely fucking nowhere Except for like little hints of people who met him once and like said, you know xyz but I can say I'm very interested in that I can say this. Uh, the chemist is alive Yeah, he's in his 70s and I thought he was not with us. I'll leave it at that Um, someone just asked he did not create urkel um, but um, you know, uh, tom has his his view of how urkel happened Um, and it's an interesting one So if I get if I get a chance to go and hang out and we get the chance to talk that will probably be on the list Because it's probably something that people would be interesting in hearing And to our good friends listening right now, keep your calendar clear for december at the emerald ball It sounds like we may be doing Another can of luminati thing, which is private. It'll probably be small But for our very good friends who go every year and listen to this Keep your calendars clear Yeah, we we were Matt and I and some other close friends of ours We kind of threw a party for a few years for weed enthusiasts breeders heads various things like that It was pretty successful It was a really nice time for people to get together and smoke a bunch of weed and shoot the shit in person Uh, it got fucked by covet For a number of years, but now that it seems like that's receding and times are a little different We're going to try to bring it back And uh, so that means I got to get on uh, you know Having some samples Get your shit ready son Yeah, so Yeah, you know, um, so yeah, I mean people can reach out about that one. I mean, I'm not sure we're not trying to get inundated In invites and if we if you're not a close friend that hasn't gone to one It's probably going to be smaller than the last ones even so even people that went to the last one Probably won't be hitting to this one, but but you know there's it's it's who knows It's not the the the size and who's coming and all that and everything like that not to leave anybody out But like we it's we're hoping it's going to happen. Yes Sounds like it that's the plans You know, maybe we can even do some content from not like live, but maybe we could even like, you know Oh, yeah, we should get some people that year, but we had too much fun Yeah, we had it was it was uh, it was it was it would be hard to get it's it's cool to not have to think there Yeah in that regard just to be able to hang out and chill and um Put any info on what cut of sour I have my god, I don't know dude I have a lot of people that um want to confidently tell me Stories about my headband and my sour and what they think it is um but You know, I just think that there's people that want to like have certainty where there's uncertainty Yeah In my opinion It's hard You know, um and with the recent batch of popularity with sour and headbands Everyone wants to fill in the blanks on it on a bunch of different stuff, you know So, you know, we'll have to see how that goes What are your trainwreck experiences? I was just looking at my last year. You're my trainwreck experiences. Yeah. Yeah Since you were I mean you're up in that region. Did you have any trainwreck experiences? What I what I'll say what's interesting about trainwreck is that the first public thing I did as Fucking not so I guess was I showed my face because uh, kaleb had a Cannabis event You know that he threw and he asked me to be on the panel uh, and so I was up there with him and um, You know a number of different people. Um, kevin jody You know, uh, just very various folks and One of the interesting things that he mentioned was that because Humboldt was such a seed-based place Trainwreck was one of the first named cuts up there that became popular Yeah, right. Um, and one of the things that became popular about it was that it was frosty It yielded a ton yielded a ton and indoors it made people a bunch of money Yeah And no one bitched about no one bitched about the potency either on it It was before it was it was basically before jack harrier Like I don't know about before jack harrier, but it was before jack harrier was common enough that people called things jack like When people say jack when people say jack turps Um, uh previously it was trainwreck turps Yes, even though they didn't use trainwreck turp back then but they called it that trainwreck nose If you yeah, it was trainwreck was probably one of the first super popular cuts in northern california that had that strong turpinoline nose Uh, and there's a lot of mystery to it too. It does not seem that um There seems to be a number of different trainwreck cuts that float around Yeah, there seems to be debate on on who had what trainwreck when Um, our buddy pack is doing has been doing some stuff with some old school trainwreck Um, you know, he's made some killer crosses. Uh There's the the gmo mac. He's done some some new school crosses like the gmo mac stuff But he's also like that blue dream trainwreck one is Fucking stellar like it. It was it's hard to find the the old Se cut a blue dream like a lot of people Some people said the arcade at e32 E32 was a reference to like they thought it was like 32. I mean there was there was just a bunch of different rumors about trainwreck Uh trainwreck is an interesting one and then it's a little bit like urkel In the sense that despite its fame Um, it doesn't have a clear storyline Yeah To me Yeah, you know, um You know, I agree. Yeah, and I think um csi said the same because I've I've definitely Picked his brain on it as one of my favorite old old old school california strains. I've picked his brain on it quite a bit Um Yeah, some people some people are like dude, that shit's too strong too racy too speedy And for me, it's one of the ones that gives me anti-anxiety. Hi. It's fucking weird And then people are asking various things about sao I don't know anything. I don't actually like, you know, I've known jj a long time I don't know what sour he has Yeah, you know, uh, I think jj mostly breeds for seed Um, I haven't smoked any of jj's actual flower From any of his clones he uses in a long time So I can't I can't really comment on that, you know, um You know, yeah, and you know, there's aspects. Someone's just saying saw a couple people saying they made crosses with my cuts um That's nice in the sense that it appears that the podcast that matt and I are doing is is gaining popularity of it, you know That people are saying that they're using my cut even though I have no idea who they are and so they didn't get it from me But they're pretty sure they must have what I have um, and then I'm not obviously Selling any clones or anything like that or selling any seeds right now. So um, it's people are jumping into the um People seem to be jumping into the the name game, unfortunately Which irritates the piss out of matt, but Um, and then someone just asked any info on original diesel Uh original diesel in my opinion is a very misleading term. There's an original diesel out there Uh that a guy has uh, it'll remain nameless that basically just it was the first diesel he got So we called it original Matt has a nice that I have it actually matt has a nice cut of original diesel. Um Also called day wrecker, which it may not even be the original cut called day wrecker also called day wrecker may not even be the original cut called day wrecker. Um, and uh, there's a lot You know and diesel also in you know, I have some good buddies from new york and diesel in the mid 90s was slang for Uh fire weed Yeah, and then don't forget archives Uses his original diesel, which is the shroomy diesel the amish And also referred to as original diesel. I think his actually probably came before the day wrecker as far as Any kind of provenance goes or providence goes on? I actually uh, I actually don't think that jack is renamed train wreck No, no, no, I don't I I disagree. I do think they very strongly have a similar terping profile Um, but the bud structure The high the way they look the way they grow There's significant differences there Yeah, someone asked me to list the new stuff on the site Uh, we have the train wreck trinity blue bonnet Um, I think we called that copper berry because it has a lot of coppery terms The we put up some more of the pure crushed blue bonnet And the blue bonnet bx one I found some more of the triangle choke Which we never sold we gave a bunch away, which is the diesel. Uh, I'm sorry triangle diesel blue bonnet And then the ones I named earlier. So rewatch the episode Some I still have to add and there's some Hawaiian lights specific directional open pollination readings meaning Me and Caleb's select cuts hit by all the males. We isolated some of that from the open pollination Just to keep those separate and um, I'll have some of those up too And there's a bunch of stuff that people man, there's a lot of comments coming fast and furious Um, people just asked how do you get rid of variegation on the chem and headband crosses? Uh, sometimes you can't depending on the cross I suppose but uh, kems and headbands tend to be very heavy feeders And they tend to be heavy calcium feeders too. So you could try that Um, but when I say calcium, I don't mean cal mag A lot of times they don't need nearly as much magnesium as they need calcium So if you're going to try try to give it more calcium And try to get a product that does not have a bunch of mag as well Um, because you can overload I got a question for you what when What is your definition of a headband? Like like when you think of a headband traditionally I know there's the cannabibal definition or whatever that it was like a normal lights hybrid of some sort But when you think of headband, what's the first thing comes to mind scent wise or maybe high wise or expression wise I mean not that this this might not be fair or accurate, but when I think of headband I think of the first cut. I got his headband, which is my la Yeah, um, I think of a diesel type plant. I think of a skunky type plant. Um You know and it turns out now that um mani and swell and bondo and others Have been talking more it does seem like the very first cut that was called headband Was the was the plant that the seeds of the first sour diesel were found in? interesting And that they all claim that that's the case that they had a cut they called diesel two and There was a per there was a friend of theirs in new york that called it headband and There was a one of their friends mani found some seeds in that diesel two headband And out of those seeds came the first sour diesel There's a bunch of other headbands And there's a couple lumpas headband and the 56th day, which we both consider to be like renamed cushions You know, uh, and then there's dayrecker And there's other things that have all kind of headband was one of those ones that the story wasn't well known for a long time So it allowed a lot of people to claim The name Yeah, and there's probably about four or five different cuts that all claim to be original new york city headband Yeah, and some of those have been discounted Yes by the people that had headband Which people probably don't like Yeah, I'm sure, you know, uh people talking about yes jack is and is I wouldn't say jack is an unworked super silver haze I would say that that jack is is um You know a stop along the way of that breeding project and neville didn't feel it was done And so he reworked it for a bit and super silver haze and mango haze for that matter came out of that later breeding project Yeah, um, you know, and then people are talking about you know, um You know sours and karma sour and res sour According to according to you know them alone or whatever, you know res got his sour from chem dog I think in 07 or 06 or something like that So I see I see people quoting fucking clop And and and stuff You can't take that to the bank. There are podcasts. He's done one was almost a week after the other They completely conflicted with everything he's ever said about sour that I don't think it's up anymore, but it was for years So you really have to be careful what you're Taking in his info and immediately repeating his facts because there's been a lot of research done on that shit Somebody just asked if I wear glasses. I do wear glasses, but I'm nearsighted so I can't read the comments on if I have them on Yeah, so that's why maybe I sit a little close and you might see me like staring Or whatever someone just asked about the cow 106 that slow nickel is pushing I've never tried it yet But I did pump him as far as being an agronomist and helping with some of the cloning techniques People seem to be really liking it And you know, there's a product by a good friend of mine Who owns cutting edge that's called plant amp? That's calcium chloride and it's organic Calcium separated from magnesium in my opinion is a better option for most plants than cal mag Most cal mag is created from calcium nitrate, which I don't like as much as calcium carbonate or calcium carbonate um and The cannabis seems to need a lot more calcium than it needs magnesium So overdosing it hard enough with calcium can overdose it in magnesium And so I like I like those two Um, I like those two products separated ideally In fact, maybe I should maybe I should nerd out for a second and say that when they were doing uh Nutrients and they were doing NPK is like the three macro elements Yeah, um scientists considered calcium so important. They actually considered it adding making a top four Yeah, so calcium missed out being up there with nitrogen phosphorus and potassium As they decided to make it a micronutrient, but they made it a sort of a macro micro It's probably the most important of the micronutrients In terms of how much plants how much plants like you know, I think that's I think it's boron As far as what plants like I think one of the most important ones is boron And I can't remember why I remember hearing that so I'm just going to throw it in there But I mean there's there's there are there's all of them are important And if they're not present in sufficient quantities the plant I mean the plant needs all of them, right? Boron in small amounts is incredibly important But in large amounts it Toxifies things and makes of course anything anything does that and actually in my my neck the woods in Mendo. There's a lot there's regions of Mendo that have Um excessive boron in the water And a lot of people would have a great first year and okay second year and a horrible third year And end up trying to filter boron out of their mix really badly because it persists Yeah, um and hey Before you get going anything else. Do you know much about uh, uh power flower? Yeah Talk a little bit about that because it used to be a staple up there And I know a lot of people used it and had some of their best harvest with it And then all of a sudden it was gone and why it was gone. I love power flower. I wish it still existed um power flower was a It came in a brown bag It was designed to be gorilla style So you could plant directly in the bag You could throw the bag on the ground and make an x and plant your plant and poke some holes Right. Yeah, or you could put it into beds or put it into pots or whatever obviously Uh, it had enough food in it for about three months Um, so in that era when you were doing gorilla and stuff like that, um, and you're just wanting to water your plant um, but really what made power flower special was that they They were digging some of the mix of it came out of this ancient bog Yeah, a peat bog. Yeah, there was a peat bog and that peat bog long ago When there was basically like, you know, people weren't brewing teas very much back then there wasn't any of these like um biological fungal bacterial products on the market like there's a plethora of now And so that ancient biology really tended to eat the organic food contained within power flower And it made it a lot more available than other mixes Yeah, and eventually they dug they they had issues with the state and local and this and that they dug out the bog too much and it was sort of a um, it was environmental Shit. Yeah, they it just it just wasn't what it was anymore. It was a it was a snapshot in time You know the green rush that people started using it people got really popular people started using it more and more They started selling more and more of it that led to more people that led to more More use and that led to the state getting involved and then eventually that bog ran out Yeah, I the reason I bring it up Is because when I was talking to csi last he had mentioned that the best sour grow he's ever Smoked because he's not a sour fan. He always talks about it But he also says that the some of the best weed he's ever smoked was sour. Yeah, despite not being a fan He has terrible taste in the weed. Yeah, fuck his taste all my favorites. He's like, yeah, I like it. I breed with it Yeah On this one he said shabbat grew the best the best sour he's ever grown But he would use flower power and he said he's never Seen lemon and stuff like that come out of sour before and these grows because it just never was able to get flower Power again and grow with it. He also said it was an amazing product I will say that the diesel family in general is very sensitive to environmental factors everything from soil to nutrient to whatever else You can grow sour diesel and living soil or whatever and have it come out very sweet Yeah, getting it to actually be sour getting it to actually be skunky Is kind of complex The diesel plants can come out like they're usually good And the high is usually there but the flavor profiles and all that and how they grow and how the buds form They're very sensitive and I Okay, no, they're very sensitive Um, I I I was talking to someone about someone about this today And I've started taking to calling them diesels instead instead of sours And that's only because I've noticed that a lot of people still that haven't grown like old sour cucks that aren't familiar with sour Still think of like the citric acid warhead type thing and apply that to what they expect When they smoke the sour because people talk about a mouth coating thing with sour and we know what that is Having smoked sour But when people think about that and then they think of the word sour mouth coat and then the citric acid type sourness Comes to mind. I've noticed a lot of people look for that in there what they think would be sours And that's not necessarily what It's it's what the name means I mean and sour is one of those things where i'm not going to sit here and call anybody a liar Or anything like that because I wasn't there so who am I to say that but It does seem like of the people involved There's a couple of different stories and you kind of end up having to choose who you want to believe Yeah, um, and there's some certainty about certain things, but it does seem like it was a multi-stage accident For lack of a better way to put it and then it became so famous That there's some people that wanted to put a little bit more certainty Yeah onto that, you know, and so, um, I uh, it sounds better if you intended to do it, you know Makes you sound cooler if you meant to do shit Yeah, you know, and so I don't I you know, but diesel in general Uh diesel cuts headband cuts that whole family. It's one of my favorite families. It's some of my favorite smoke They are highly variable Yeah, most of them are pretty good, which is nice Um, but they are and especially right now with the resurgence and popularity There's a lot of false stories being told and a lot of like very certain tales Yeah, um, you know, and I mean, you know, it'll probably I'll probably say this and regret it or whatever Um, but there's a lot of there's a lot of people that are like, oh my sour traces all the way back to 95 Yeah, but then according to the sour people the sour was actually found in the spring of 96 Yeah, that would make it hard. So it's uh, so some people sour predates real sour by by almost a year And that's why the term pre-pre was born. Oh, yeah, the pre-pre, you know, it's like how what's the earliest I can do it Let's go six months earlier. I know a guy You know, you know, and I I people are talking about various things. I don't use this term very much I really dislike IBL in cannabis if you see the term IBL in cannabis You should be extremely suspicious IBL is the only time thing that I could even think that I would consider to be close to an IBL Is tom hill's deep chunk Same. Yeah, I you see sour diesel IBL I shit on that Yeah, no, that's a joke. I mean even even res would be like, hey, here's my sour D. IBL. Here's all the phenos you can get Right under it. No, I mean, you know, you can think about you can think about Inbred line and it's like oh, I've inbred in a couple generations. It's an IBL An actual IBL has almost no It doesn't have phenos Yeah, yeah, it doesn't have phenote phenotypical. It is a phenome Basically It has it has a very very very narrow band of expressions So I don't even like IBLs because there's nowhere to go. You get what you get Yes You know weasel couldn't have had it before 96. No, so there's I I don't really want to get into the whole sour story because it's extremely long Um, and we have an episode on it and we have various things on it and all that but Um, very quickly, uh, there was you know, there was weed that was being bought There was bagged seeds found out of that weed. There was a couple plants that were called diesel one and diesel two Um that were grown out of those bagged seeds something hermed onto the diesel two They sold some weed of diesel two to mani mani found some seeds in diesel two He grew those up and called them sour diesel. Yeah And also, uh, like someone this is the if you It should never be in anyone's head that x amount of generations equals IBL The generation has nothing to do with it other than the fact that you can't find them in early generations because that would mean That's not how it works. So an IBL Means you've achieved uniformity. You can do that in any generation But a bad breeder can take something to f-14 and never achieve uniformity. I'll I'll say it a different way Okay, and maybe maybe maybe you can shit on this or not. But to me If you get a true breeding line a true breeding cannabis line means that it breeds true for at least one characteristic One trait it might breed true for multiple characteristics Right, but it has to breed true for at least one consistent characteristic To me a cannabis IBL Means that it breeds true for basically all the characteristics several. Yeah, you know, it's it's it has very little variation within the line What you see is what you get You could probably plant out hundreds of them and the variation within the line would be less than five percent Yeah, so it's not even desirable for the most part to have an IBL Because you're really cutting off pathways for people to do different things with the line Unless you're like a hemp farm wanting to do a seed pop for vigor and you want A uniformity without having to do all the cloning. That's like where IBLs shine And so most people these days they're like, oh, well, I have an inbred line I took it two or three or four generations. So now it's inbred That's not an IBL an IBL People confuse linebred with inbreeding and line a linebred a line that's been linebred can be Variants and still have work put into it and be a line that's linebred, but it doesn't mean it's an inbred line proper and the hard part about it is is that You know, I'll I'll we can we can and this you know, it's like IBL. It's like, what are you even trying to get out of it? Are you trying to get something that like You know, the only reason why an IBL would even be desirable would be if you were trying to grow a whole bunch of consistent Plants in a field or something from seed or a greenhouse or whatever and you wanted to grow from seed and you wanted it to all be Very very close to each other in height weight Branching THC this that whatever else. Yeah, but in cannabis we like things to be a little bit variable So people have different choices of where they're going Right and the term IBL is 99% of the time misused really bad Yeah, I used to rage about it for years and then I just stopped because it just didn't matter if people are going to use it Anyway, yeah, it just it just doesn't exist By if you look up the definition almost nobody like like I said I maybe there's a couple other things that are besides deep chunk deep chunks really the only one that comes to mind Um, just Christmas tree bud from from Caleb's pretty consistent and that's it's it's so far in few between though Like two three things I could think of and inbred does not mean IBL Yeah, inbred just you know People have been asking about Recombinant IBL recombinant has to do with recombining the genetics and it's usually a GMO term So if someone's saying they're doing recombinant IBL work, they're not using the term correctly I have no clue what they're talking about You know Rob Clark's book says f7 is IBL No, it's not, you know, and Rob Clark also did good breeding understood breeding to him He might have been able to take something to IBL at an f7 that would make sense because he understood the term he understood all that F7 does not equal IBL though You could take something that's incredibly different like something from Bodie that's like a wild cambodian And cross it with some afghan and take it seven generations and it wouldn't even be close to IBL Yeah Like there's no there's no set amount of generations that gets there you either get there or you don't Yes It's it's crazy because it seems like wow that's a really easy way to describe it is like it's just as simple as that Is it uniform? No, not ideal That's all you ever have to know about it And then the other thing about it is is that like when people are doing like f gens in regular breeding the size of the generation is so much larger You know and the population they're picking at each f gen is so much larger than most small scale hobbyist cannabis breeding That doing that IBL doing an IBL project is just is just outside the purview of most people's spacing And another term that gets used of course in cannabis and I do it all the time This is f1 the actual term f1 Because most cannabis now that we work with unless we're working with like fucking land races or old heirloom lines are going to be modern lines that are Hybrids or polyhybrids or poly poly poly poly poly hybrids, you know and trying to in the definition of f1 It's combining two distinctly different genotypes Well, a lot of these are not distinctly different a lot of these are you know, basically afghani type expressions to the extreme, you know and If you're crossing two like types that's not an f1, but we don't really have specific terms in cannabis because it's such a A wildly unique Crop so I don't know if there's any correct terms for stuff like like polyhybrid x polyhybrid It's not quite an f1, you know people someone just asked. What's the point of going so many generations in general? I will say that in general most breeding these days is one step only Yeah, um to be old-school breeding and to use these terms that get thrown around in cannabis Um, you know to do a bunch of stages of breeding you would have to have a goal of what you're trying to achieve And then however many generations it takes you until you feel like you hit that goal Yeah, that's really what it's about You know, um, and there's no set amount of you could hit that generation in f3 or f4 Or it could take you to f7 or f8 or it could take you to f10 Or whatever, you know, yeah It it it very much depends on your goals And what you're trying to stabilize within the line And then the other thing is that like I said you can have a true breeding You can have a true breeding line that's only true breeding for one trait Right. Yep. The more traits that you try to make true breeding within the same line The harder it is Yes, so, you know, you try to make something that's extreme like like uh, skunk one Can is is true breeding for the most part for a few things Yes, right. It's got great calyx to leaf ratio You know, uh, you know, it's it's got a few different things But it's got the resin trait that neville talked about that's very visible It's got the resin trait, you know, it's got it's got a certain what people call skunkoid type You know bud structure a lot, right Yeah, um, but you know, it has a range of terpene profiles Yeah, you know, it has a range of other aspects. It's not true breeding in every aspect. It's true breeding in a few traits That tended to be useful. So it tended to be bred do a lot of different things So the more true breeding traits you try to add in the harder your project becomes Yeah, I've noticed that DJ Despite DJ's work with blueberry being very odd doing constant different Different constant f ones of every filial generation meaning two different types Inside the line, which is not usually done despite that A lot of the blueberry stuff I found can be really good at breeding True for certain traits if the lines worked a little bit more like breeding true for purple breeding true for the blueberry terps Breeding true for xyz Oddly enough, that's one of those ones that you can actually get good good true breeding traits a lot like mendo perps Even has a lot of certain traits that can breed true for type And you know, maybe maybe we can take it back because we were talking about nl5 haze before When um, when neville was when neville was looking through his nl5 hay seeds He was basically looking for a few traits in that he that he was that he was after He was looking for something that was 16 weeks or less Because he thought longer than that was a huge pain in the ass So any even if it was amazing weed if it took 20 weeks, he shit-canned it He was looking for things with decent yields and he was looking for things that had the high Yeah, he wasn't looking for looks He wasn't necessarily looking for flavor profile. He was looking for time of finish Bud structure and effect Yeah You know yield yield was super important too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah time to finish get bud structure That's kind of what I meant by bud. Yeah. Yeah bud structure. Yeah Yeah, you know, he was good He was looking for things that threw bats and yielded fairly solid compared to like a bunch of wispy calyxes and stuff like that And so he had three things he was basically looking for time to finish the high And you know making it making it yield enough that it would bud structure And yield so it was worth taking it that four months Yeah, so he might have found some amazingly Phenomenal stuff, but he was like oh, it's 21 weeks screw that Yeah, and the more traits you start to add to look for those things the harder it's going to be to find it in a single plant Yep And all I it's why I avoid or I try to avoid using Males that are super Polyhybrid types with a lot of expressions to narrow what I'm doing So if I have projects I can use it as a tool as opposed to wondering what's going to happen And somebody wants to talk somebody wants to talk about flow Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I mean we could talk about flow without doing all the the blueberry top sure Um, I I'll talk about flow and then matt can talk about flow because we probably have our own different takes on flow Yeah, flow interested me because it was incredibly beautiful looking And dj waxed poetic about how it was almost a pure sativa But it was done in that seven weeks Yeah, who doesn't want a amazing cannabis that's done in 49 or 50 days, right? Yeah, um, so it had the it had the look it's supposed to have a very up energetic high All that type of stuff And when we did the I was at the like I mentioned before I helped jason king And one of the cannibal books get a lot of people So we could get a lot of pictures and and helped with a bunch of the projects and stuff And so at the cannibal party I bought like 450 seeds or something like that direct from dj Um, probably oh three ish. Oh two ish And one of them was flow. So I got about a hundred flow seeds Um, and I grew so I grew out a lot of flow I was pretty disappointed. There was especially pre cookie I got a lot of pinks a lot of blues a lot of purples lavenders very pretty very feathery Not a lot of flavor not a lot of high I was kind of disappointed. So that's my experience with flow Yeah, I could I can understand some of that. Um, I fell in love with flow because you know, like, uh, a lot of other people I was I was falling in love with purples And at the time flow was one of those base purples that people use to to inject Beautiful colors into their work Um, I've grown flow from dj stock modern dj stock something I purchased from him in the past few years I run stock from Outline man, I believe it was who did the um The rose flow which is some of the stuff I added to the site tonight And that was very different the old dutch passion release of flow is very different from the modern dj flow I found and um Yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful plant. It can breed Breed true for a lot of traits. It's very floral perfumey smelling from what my experience is with it But the the rose flow from um outline man was like rosy perfumey But way more heavy on the nog chompa incense, which you can also find in modern flow too stuff like that Um, some flow is very cushy looking almost with the the nugget tree structure But with those big, you know, the the widespread what dj called a stretch indica, you know, there's a lot long node spacing Um, it's a gorgeous plant, but it really I've never really met anyone goes. Fuck. I love smoking flow I've never met anyone. He's like, I love just smoking pure flow. I've never met anyone For me. I wasn't a fan of the colorado flow at all I thought I do not like that turp said it reminds me of like, uh, a much more pronounced turned up mac one Um, so I'm not a big fan of that turp profile. Yeah, it's that floral perfumey But it's very beautiful the colorado flow is super beautiful. Um, one of the prettiest flow cuts Greenworks is talking about dj's flow cut. That's another really pretty nice one Um, but yeah, I I have a lot of experience with the dutch passion flow And outline man's work with it. And that's what we put in the What do we call red menace that that crossed above it because bubba would I kind of wanted to make another I've I've crossed an organ purple tie to bubba And I've now crossed the flow to bubba to see what would a different afghani type that wasn't used in blue barrier And dj's work would would do across to something like flow to see what direction it goes. So, yeah Yeah, I um, you know, I I'm not I'm not trying to diss dj sometimes you can Find amazing stuff in a in every in a single pack Sometimes you can go through a bunch of seeds and find nothing that you're looking for I will say that um, you know, when I was growing those those lines, especially five six years before cookie even popped up There was a lot of colors that were quite rare in cannabis back then um, I just never found The turps and the high in the same plant You know, if you could have found an extremely attractive plant that had nice flavor and either way I wanted it to I would have liked that better. I just never was able to find something. Yeah, I thought got me that A lot like a lot like blueberry. I think um flow does best in hybrids You know, I I think that's where it shines. I think uh, I think when when you were interviewing red and chimera Uh chimera made a pretty good point, which is that um, he sort of considers all of dj's work to be one line Yeah, you know, um, and what's that's one family and what's nice about it is that um, it's it's inbred to the point where You know, it he didn't add a bunch of other stuff to it. So it sort of is what it is Yeah, um, and I think dj took the breeding perception of oh, I see these phenos in it Well, now if I take these phenos and I breed them together I have flow and if I take these phenos and I breed them I get this and if I take these phenos and I breed them They get that but they're all from the same General stock just taken in different directions And so sometimes that works better than others You know, um, but it seems like dj's work is much better suited to out crossing to something very different than itself Then within itself Yeah, it seems like it shines more in hybrids Then it does as a as far as my personal preference I'm not gonna like maybe like his son's gonna get on jd. He's gonna get all fucking mad at me and fucking screaming Yeah, his daughter's his daughter gets real mad all the time, you know, but um, whatever the case may be So I had a good question for you Would you mind saying if more of the cuts you keep are from someone else gifting or you hunting seeds? That's a good question. Most of them are are are cuts I've acquired You know, um, my collection is pretty weird in the sense that it's basically entirely suited around my tastes Um, I didn't collect it for any other reason that I liked the weed Um, it's only now because most people didn't collect cuts and didn't hold on to cuts And there's been a resurgence and a desire for some of these old famous things that all of a sudden These things have been sought after so there's certain things that I have a lot of depth in in my collection And then there's other things that I don't prefer that much that I don't have very much of at all Um, because it wasn't collected to have some kind of like comprehensive database of all weed It was personal What's a what's a uh a scent profile that you would like to see in cannabis that you have not yet You know, um Maybe maybe I'll cheat Yeah, cheap There is a scent profile in cannabis that um, uh I like a lot and I have not and I would love to see a plant that translated it into flavor I would love a real bubblegum I think the bubblegum that's out there I there are plants that I think smell very strongly of bubblegum. Yeah, I Don't recall smoking things that make me lip smack like I just had some big league chew Yeah, you know or something along those lines. I mean there's there's some aspects of I you know There's some maybe some juicy fruit bubblegum. Maybe there's some like there's some flavor for profiles a little bit like that But your straight classic pink bubblegum flavor Um, I don't get that Yeah, I got that from the um The 95 cents you start for you know, that was bubblegum because it was super chirpinoline Bubblegum and it would come through super like, you know, chirpinoline does just fucking amplifies everything It was it was really nice. I think that's what Um, the ambiana bubblegum needed. So I I did grab a bunch of the derby bubblegum from Caleb for that reason um If there's questions going on matt won't let me answer how many moms I have Uh for uh obsessions. I'll I'll say you guys there are limits to plant counts Why the fuck would you want him documenting anything about plant counts? Stop it? But I will but I but I will say that when it comes to important cuts I don't like having only one mom of certain things and And the most important things to me not only do I not like having one mom, but I do like having them backed up with friends Um, oh god people want to have fucking rare dankness. I don't want to talk about ranger Obviously he wants us to talk Scott, you know reach was involved in early clone trading Um, he's been around forever Um, he has a lot of respect from a lot of different people. So I'm sure he's a great guy I don't interact with him. So I don't know. I didn't really grow any rare dankness stuff at the time because it was making stuff similar Uh, I've heard people love that flow og cross. I heard people I don't know who made it for them if that was something scott from rare dankness made or something collector made from archive I know there's some head budding that went on there. So I don't want to speculate, but yeah Yeah, and so there's there's an aspect of I will say that Um, most of the reason why people don't keep Moms more than what they're currently growing for for, you know modern times Is because it's expensive. It's time consuming and it's a huge pain in the ass Yeah, you know, I wish more people did it but um, uh, we could have an episode on long term mom health Um, and you know, I know we mentioned it at the beginning of the thing people have been bugging about it all thing. It's too late now Um, we are going to run a little over than we normally do because people have been chatting a bunch But I'm not going to talk about dry tech today Simply because it's too. It's too detailed of a topic You should do that for one of your solo things that I've been trying to get you to record forever So there's an aspect actually where there is a bunch of solo content about some historical stuff That's about to come out. Um, I know I promised it and uh, it's right in the middle of my growing season Um, so of course like it's it's awesome for me to like be like, oh, I'll come out with all this new stuff Right in the middle of like I got plants everywhere. So, um, but uh, I there will be some historical stuff coming out And what we're going to do with it is I am going to talk for five or ten minutes about some specific histories or specific strains And it's very likely that I'm also going to make uh, like an ig post With possibly some pictures and some more information and a brief description And then people can go on our our our podcast and see like a little short And and and listen it'll probably be mostly uh, uh audio Uh to back up the post it won't be like video chat like this is right here, but um, it will you know We're going to do some historical stuff like that. So it will be coming soon. I'm just right in the middle of gross season and so Uh, it's a you know and matt can tell you where to find he does the pitch on all yeah Might as well start busting it out. So, um First off, uh, like again, I had it pinned up here the whole time but for the audio listeners This weekend, um, I don't remember what the date is. I think it's like the 16th of September so this weekend 16th of september coupon code invisible 40 Um, we'll get you 40 off for the weekend on riot seeds.com. We have my spray. That's 40 off too for this weekend So take advantage of it while you can. Um, we have the copper berry, which is the train wreck trinity blue bonnet The pure blue pure kush blue bonnet blue bonnet bx one triangle choke blue cream blueberry stone red menace some of the Hawaiian light stuff up Some of it I still need to add we have the Santa Cruz goat farm stuff, which is the the train wreck fem fem hybrids I got my podcast coming up next Tuesday about alien shit. So if you want to watch that it's the invisible Maybe I'll throw in there. He just mentioned it real quick But we got a buddy that's on our discord that we chat with all the time pack And he was just mentioning the pack goat farm stuff um Pack has been releasing some Uh train wreck and some other lines that he's held close for a long time and he's been breeding In my opinion, which is one of the best ways to breed which is with stuff. He likes a lot Um, and so matt has some of that. So uh, look up for that for sure I just wanted to plug that a little bit more than yeah one sentence Um, but he's a good homie. He's on our discord He's another person you can ask questions about and matt's got some of his stuff that we've been selling So, uh, he's a good dude. Yeah, that's an excellent plug Um, and we have our patreon where you can come kick it with us watch fucking movies Shoot the shit. We do giveaways. I was going to do a giveaway here, but I'll probably actually since we ran over time I'll probably just go do it on the patreon and and do a giveaway for the patreon folks. Um Uh So yeah go to patreon search breeder syndicate. That's how you find us go google it Breeder syndicate 2.0. You can find us on itunes for the audio youtube. You can find the audio and video after the show I'll probably have this up within two hours. So yeah, check it out. We're on all the podcast software on youtube That's it. Thank you everyone for showing up not so you want anything else you want to get it? No, just uh, we will I will have some we will have some solo content and some different stuff coming out very soon It's been a little slower than we thought but um Always thank you for your friday night. Thank you for your time always good to listen to everyone Thanks everyone. Peace