 Welcome back to ThinkTech. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Global Connections. We are joined by Richard Wurzheimer, who's a businessman on Bishop Street, and who will join us today to talk about Israel, and talk about what happened in Israel last Friday over the weekend, and what is happening now and what is happening in the future. Welcome to the show, Richard. Thanks, Jay. Thanks for having me. One thing that strikes me. After following this for, what, three, four days already, is that we're in another place. You know how outrageous things take on their own reality and take on kind of their own normalcy? People get used to the outrage, and they change the way they do. They're not so outraged by day 405. They start looking at it maybe in a different way. I mean, I noticed, for example, that some of the media is doing two sides to them, and they bring in people who are saying, well, you know, this is the fault of the Israelis. It's all the fault of the Israelis. I love when they do that. That makes me feel really good all over, all over, because it's such a crock. But what happened here deserves to be examined on an historical level. And maybe that's phase two of the reaction. Phase one, anger, retribution, what have you, let's do a siege on Gaza, let's get even. But phase two is, how does this change the world? Which one would you like to talk about? I think probably phase two is probably the more important one right now is what happens. Why this happened. I mean, there's obviously strategic, historical reasons behind it that are also obviously very relevant. I guess the really more important thing for now is where does it go? What are we looking at? What should and what can Israel do? What are the wider implications? Does it escalate? Which everybody's asking. I think nobody really knows because that's really the big risk right now. The other sort of existential questions of why and what does it mean for Israel? What does it mean for the Palestinians? What does it mean for peace in the Middle East? And what everybody's asking, what's the solution? I think it's an intractable problem and that the answer to that has been elusive. So your two questions, I'd say, so what happens now? I mean, that's what everybody's worried about and that's what we should be because if this thing goes, it can get much more complicated and much uglier and lead to something much more substantial, which should have implications for the whole world. Yeah, well, you know, there are other players getting involved. You know, at first, I think the Biden administration was reluctant to, you know, put the blame, but put the involvement on Iran. But more and more is coming out and more will come out to indicate that Iran was supplying weapons and money and the like, not only to, you know, Hamas but Hezbollah. So what we have, you know, I think is, as you said, an intractable problem. We haven't had real peace in the Middle East since Israel independence, really. And then there were a few years and the next time you looked, there was war. Next time you looked, there were these brutal attacks, these inhumane attacks and Israel responded. And as held the line all this time, really, has enforced a peace of sorts. But now that's really not clear anymore. It's not clear that Israel can enforce a peace because it's not just that it can, whether it can recover from the embarrassment of, you know, an intelligence failure, but whether other countries, other hostile powers are going to take advantage going forward so that Israel can never rest again. That this is a possibility that will repeat itself somehow. Yeah, it's very troublesome. I mean, so the first thing, look, there are many. Angles to this number one is that clearly the policy that the Israeli government has followed for the last, you know, since Netanyahu and his the Likud and his coalition have led. Is now been shown that it's it was. A failure on many, many levels. And we've seen this over the many years, you know, depending upon what your, you know, what your views are as a as a on the politics in Israel. But it's clear that, you know, from my view is that it was fairly corrupt and very incompetent, and that's what led to this happening. Not just in terms of security and intelligence breach, but that or lapse. But that the policy was heading in the wrong direction. And I'm not saying that there was an easy and obvious solution. There wasn't, but it clearly, you know, this, this, this issue with the Palestinians has been festering and there was this low, you know, almost, you know, the a. The sense it's not that was peace. J. I would say that was stability and it was a false sense of security. And because of all these things, I think that's what's that's where we are today. And it look, you know, we get the hyperboles are justified. In terms of what happened, right? There's there's fighting and and then there's, you know, there's war and then there's just atrocities. And what we've seen is obviously a massive atrocity of proto genocide. And when you're talking about, you know, Israel and the Jewish people, that's, you know, those are those things are the most tantamount sensitive things that we have given the history, particularly the recent history in the Holocaust, but just when you go back over thousands of years. So, but particularly in terms of the Holocaust and the founding of Israel. So these and at any level, I mean, so, you know, some of the things that you see mentioned the two sided approach, you know, kind of some of this justification, you know, places like Harvard University, which failed to, you know, and not just in many places, many people, you know, and many around the world have failed to really condemn right and wrong. I don't care what your views are in terms of the Palestinians. It's a very complicated subject. We know it is everybody says that, but this is there's right and wrong. And this is an atrocity. It's it's, you know, what happened is just disgraceful. And it's a it's it's, you know, you ashamed to call myself a human being when you see things like this. And so you can't, you know, you can't, you know, exculpate, you know, forgive in any way what happened. I mean, that's that's I don't care. There is the, you know, it's stunning moral clarity in terms of right, you know, you don't decapitate people. You don't kill innocence. And it's, you know, that on that level, we all feel very emotional. I mean, my daughter wasn't working on a living on a kibbutz last year and was at a one of these concerts in the Negev near Gaza the exact time last year. And so you feel it personally, you know. So there's that visceral reaction. But I think to your point about what do you focus on now? And the question is, so what do we do? What happens? You know, what what should Israel do? Can I get back to you on that, Richard? You know, before the show began, I was watching NBC and I see and it made my heart it made my heart feel good that the Israeli the young men in the Israeli army and women marching down a road toward Gaza with their guns, looking very alert and looking very determined and not looking afraid, looking like they got a job to do. And I say to myself, they're going to do a job. But I don't know if that really solves the problem. And there'll be there'll be more provocation. There'll be more. There'll be more outrageous things happening here. So the question is, where does it go? Yeah, right. And that's that's what I've been trying to. And I don't think nobody knows. I mean, Israel is going to have to respond. They have to defend themselves. What type of response? You know, the problem is that the current government has left. Many I'm not Israeli, I'm an American citizen, Jewish, but we I have many Israeli friends and many of them are out of the country because of the current government. They've left many years ago. They're just the direction the country was heading with being more and more extreme in their in their handling of the Palestinian issue has just led to this. And so they they, you know, the the response by that that same government is let's hopefully that they do it the right way because there is a right way and a wrong way to do to execute something. Obviously needs to defend themselves. They need to respond. They're going to have to but hopefully the the unity government will include more rational and intelligent people incompetent so that the response does not basically escalate and further inflame and actually hopes at some way solves the problem. They're never going to solve it completely. I'm not saying that, but you have to to, you know, Israel has and that happened in nineteen seventy three with the Yom Kippur war with Golda Meir, the same thing. They were complacent and the Syria and Egypt invaded and they, you know, we thought it was the end of Israel. But the government. Shortly thereafter was Golda Meir was forced out in disgrace and the new government basically rose to the occasion. So I think they're going to rise to the occasion. There's there's, you know, there's a lot of very smart, capable people in Israel and with the backing of their allies, you know, the United States in particular, they, you know, they have the means to to defend themselves, despite what happened. And so the question is, does it open up a multi front war and what does that look like? Because once that happens, Jay, then you're talking about Iran and because ultimately that's what that's who's behind this, whether directly or indirectly. And the United States will have to will has made it very clear that they will step in and that they'll have to, one would hope. Um, so and that would be horrific. I just that's that's how World War Start, you know. Uh, so the the the question it's and it's really hard. I mean, if I if you told me that I was in charge and I had to come up with a plan, I would want to exact, uh, some type of, you know, of a payment, if you will, or a punishment, but it has to be commensurate and it has to be in a way. I mean, you know, they're talking about. The trying to take out Hamas leadership and that's going to be boots on the ground and it's going to involve a lot of casualties on both sides. And then who knows, you know, that's that's going to take a long time. It's going to be very complicated. Well, yeah, and if you take if you take out the existing leadership, then others will take those jobs. Fact is, there's a lot of people out there that hate Israel, hate the Jews. I mean, it's so deep. It's and it's so it's so determined. I mean, it's not it's not just Gaza. It's not just the Palestinians. It's other countries, but I think Israel has made some progress in developing geopolitical, you know, foreign relations with some of these guys. This is very disruptive to that process right now. And I think what, you know, what happened here, maybe it's the first order of business is to say, gee, you know, if you if you have all those Israelis marching around in the streets, you're sending a message to the world and especially to your enemies that you're, you know, you're you're you're vulnerable, you're fragile and they can't mount a defense or an attack. And it's it's a strange thing that on the one hand, that was true. And on the other hand, this attack galvanizes the country. And now it's, you know, pretty much galvanized and it will fight hard. But ultimately, I don't think it's a question. I mean, if you and I got in a room with the leaders here, the Israeli leaders, we wouldn't necessarily look for vengeance. We would try to cut off the head of the snake. We would try to just dismember the snake so that it didn't do this again. And it's, you know, you know, I woke up a couple of nights ago and I said, why don't the Israelis do a siege like the old fashioned middle age speech? You don't let anything in there and after a while it turns in your favor because the people you're sieging, you know, can't do very much. And I think that really is part of it. I know we should feel bad that, you know, people got hurt in the Israeli bombing and and the hospitals don't have power or medicine or anything. But that I'm sorry, I can't be all that sympathetic about that. I think the name of the game is to do a siege until you can find the head of the snake and then deal with it there. In order to get some kind of assurance, this isn't going to happen again and again and again, because it was a mistake. The Israelis shouldn't have given it up in the in the first place. In my view, they should have retained some kind of control. They returned no control. All they had was, you know, a barricade around it and at the sea, the seaside of it. That's not enough. Two million people can get into all kinds of nefarious planning if they are led to their own devices. And somehow they can get five thousand rockets and missiles, you know, into Gaza, and you don't even know about it. How did that happen? But the point is that the Israelis have to do something to prevent this from happening again, because if it happens, just as you say, it happens in one place. If it happens out of Gaza, it could happen out of multiple fronts, and then it's really bad. So you have to stop it where it appears. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's look, it's a I don't disagree. They obviously have to they have to do everything they possibly can to kill the head of the snake, as you say. It's it's I think it's gotten harder over the years. They haven't been in, you know, they were there in 2014, you know, with the small invasion, but they left in 2005. And yeah, how much took over in 2007? And effectively, you know, this whole land for peace thing, obviously, it's not it's not worked. You know, it's hard to negotiate with somebody when their position is I want to push you into the sea. There's not much wiggle room. So and I, you know, and let me be clear, I this is a complicated historical issue. So I I have, you know, I've got friends who are Palestinian and, you know, it's not it's not completely one sided. And I'm not by any way, it was any way since, you know, justifying what happened, obviously. But I think you just have to recognize that. And, you know, Gaza has been blockaded for many years now by Egypt and Israel. And I guess, you know, so the question is, how do you make it more effective? You got two million plus people in in a you know, in the land that's I think it's the size of twice the size of Washington, D.C. or I think the size of Omaha, Nebraska that got read somewhere. So it's a small piece, you know, it's there's not a lot of land. It's and you're right, I don't have sympathy. Israel has to do what they have to do. It's just the way it is, you know, indirectly or directly. I mean, that the people in Gaza don't support, how do I say this? They they would rather not have Hamas. I mean, they have delivered nothing to them. And if you read the the, you know, the the statements over the last, you know, number of years, they would love to get rid of them and have a proper, you know, leadership. And hopefully that's what Israel can do is by, you know, by by force, make those changes. I'm, you know, I think militarily, your advantage is always on the defense. And Israel has not been there for so long that it's going to be if it was tough before, it's going to be much tougher. They've had years and years to prepare and dig in and have tunnels, you know, internally, it's going to be very, very hard. I mean, you see what's happening with Ukraine and Russia. Defense is much easier than offense. Offenses can be very tricky, depending upon who you're going against. And Israel is formidable. I mean, they definitely have a lot of the tools and the resources and organization. So we'll see. I don't think, but it's not going to be easy. But, you know, and then you see, you know, we can all dream about them replacing Hamas in some way with a more reasonable group. But, you know, these these are it's I think the first thing is they have to they have to teach. They have to they have to take action to defend themselves to your point, to not let it happen again. And everybody, the problems we talk about these things that we want to happen, like we want to find a solution. But how it what are the specifics? How does it actually work in practice? And that's what, you know, I'm not privy to what the Israelis are are preparing, but whatever they do, it's going to have to be so forceful and it's going to be hard and long slog at the same time in a way that potentially does not risk having Hezbollah and Syria, which which lob some missiles into Israel today. You know, the the West Bank and anybody else basically potentially come out there. Or the I was reading the the Houthis in Yemen, we're talking about potentially joining forces. So there's that, you know, there's that. You know, trying to, you know, you're walking on a very on a knife edge. I mean, so when Israel usually historically and as a up until very recently, even in this campaign, they would call they would do something called knocking on the roof before they would actually bomb and and and they would let people know we're going to bomb, so you should probably leave. They're not knocking on the roof now so much. And the reason is they're not knocking on the 4,000, 5,000 missiles. There's knocking knocking on the roof. So they have to respond to that. I mean, I just want to be clear, you know, that that's unfortunately. And I've, you know, for the ordinary people, I have great sympathy for the ordinary people that are sitting in Gaza because I don't, you know, this is, you know, they're just for a lot of people. They're not, you know, they're they're they're almost along, you know, hijacked along for the ride, so to speak. It's true. They have their hostages themselves. And among them live the Hamas and Hamas is is going to stay embedded within them and hide behind them and, you know, have their command center run to the hospital and do all those things that make the Israelis look like monsters. And they've been doing that for years. So I think we have to get by that. You know, the reality is a lot of people will die to resolve phase one of this. And it's really awful. But phase two is, I think, much broader. We've got to somehow get by the notion of a multi front war. I don't know how Israel is going to do that. But I'm sure they're thinking about it just as you and I are. Well, yeah, if I can interrupt, I mean, if just be clear, if it's a multi front war, then we have an escalation. And I'm not saying it's going to happen. I mean, you can see as Bala has been very careful. They haven't they haven't run into the fray with, you know, they have 10,000 plus missiles of precision guided bombs. They're a much more formal, formidable fighting force with a lot of experience. That would Jay, that would I mean, that would trigger it would make it obviously extremely difficult for Israel to fight a multi front war to front war. But it would, more importantly, you would probably trigger an attack in some way, shape or form on Iran and, you know, or it would basically signal Iran's involvement. And Israel might react that way or the United States might have to as a reason why the U.S. has said. Has Bala do not move Iran? Make sure has because they listen, right? That's they're saying these guys move that. Right now, the thing I'm most concerned about is that. Well, remember, too, Israel has a number of nuclear weapons. And if it gets to be that desperate, you know, I mean, I worry about the survival of the state of Israel. I'm always worried about that, always worried about it. And when when we get closer to that, we get the desperation. We get the desperation. We pull out all the stops. Yeah, I think I don't make, you know, who knows with this stuff. But I think in my lifetime and our lifetime, I don't think we'll see that, but there is that risk. It's it's increasing. Look, Iran is 18 months away from having the bomb. You know, look, look, you know, just. And Israel has enough nuclear weapons to level the entire Middle East, probably. And including themselves, including themselves. So your point, so you're you're on the phone with my brother yesterday. We had the same exact conversation. We worry about the because of what you just mentioned. It could get like I'm not suggesting it has to. Let's hope that, you know, look, up until a couple of days ago, Saudi Arabia was about to sign an accord with with peace. Recognize the state of Israel. I mean, who would have expected that? So, you know, I think you have to. You have to expect you have to have the you have to have your expectations at a realistic level in terms of solutions and what happens next. On the other hand, you have to have hope. You have to have hope, Jay, that somehow we'll figure it our way through this stuff, because as horrible as all this is and as as dismal and depressing, you know, as as what's happened and what will probably be a very long conflict and bloody. You know, there's there's always that possibility. It's like with the Israeli government, you know, hopefully now we'll get a better government in Israel that will do better things that will lead to better solutions with its partners in or the people, the Palestinians. Well, that should come soon. I mean, they should be they should be talking about that. And not only, you know, in councils of war, but, you know, in the public conversation about how they recognize that, you know, things have happened that exacerbated the hatred and and made this a multi front problem. And, you know, first of all, they're not going to be vulnerable by having crowds in the street for everybody in the world to see how vulnerable they are. That was not a good idea. I'm sure that when you look at the the scenes of all those Israelis arguing among themselves, you say, gee, this is a fragile state surrounded by hostile countries. What you do this and you're asking for it. And indeed, they need a better policy and dealing with the Palestinians on dealing with that hatred. I'm not saying that hatred is anything other than hatred. That's what it is. But when you have people who who would like to push you into the sea and destroy your state, you have to take certain really smart steps and I'm not saying they should capitulate in any way, but they've got to be really smart. They've got to be smarter than they have been under Netanyahu, who hasn't been smart. No, it hasn't been smart. Look, it will change the unity government now, which is they're trying to form, which will bring the opposition. And but, you know, I think that, like, I know I'm a realist. So I'm not saying that the, you know, I have the solutions. But I and but I do know that in terms of realist, that we've tried, you know, Ehud Barak tried to do land for peace, even Sharon, before he died, unfortunately, because he was somebody who could, who was tough, but realized towards the end of his life that you have to figure out a way to get along with these people. We have to come up with a solution. Easiest said than done. But the point is the way that Netanyahu and these extremists on the Israeli side, the ultra religious, I mean, these people were out of touch with reality and they basically, you know, they weakened Israel, right? So you had incompetent government and you created an even more hostile, angry enemy. And those policies are wrong and we need a better policy. But right now we need to defend ourselves. So everybody's pulling together. That's the key, not until that happens. Then once things look like they calm down and it doesn't escalate, then we can have those discussions. Absolutely. But it will escalate at first. And that's what I worry about. I see this as an inflection point for Israel, for the survival of Israel. They're at war among people who have no no scruples at all, no morality at all. And gee whiz, I mean, that's that's not a nice war. That's a war in which a lot of people die. And and they and here Israel, it's a bunch of middle class people living in middle class homes on middle class streets. It could be anywhere in the United States, those streets and living middle class lives. You know, let's let's let's go to a dance. My daughter was there last year. I get it. You know, she was living there and she was thinking about, you know, staying longer and just it's a wonderful place. I mean, what they've done with that country is phenomenal. But when you see scenes of, you know, there was one picture, graphic picture of a girl that was raped, you could tell. I mean, this is. You know, you're dealing with, you know, this is this is not a partner or somebody you can actually negotiate with. Unfortunately, there's one language that those type of people understand and that's that's, you know, I hit you once. I'm going to hit you. You hit me once. I'm going to hit you 10 times harder. Yes. So Israel has to get on top. I know the picture you're talking about, it's seared into my brain. Yes, and all of our brains and and it stands as a symbol for the world. And I and I we have to get on top first and then we can be more what do you want to call it, rational, more, more thoughtful about how to deal with the reform of the government, the reform of the the policies and what have you. But right now, what we're dealing with is that picture. Yeah, agree. Yeah. Yeah, we will. I think we will. I think it's going to take, unfortunately, that the new cycle only lasts, you know, before people get fatigued and, you know, inert with what's going on. So, you know, this is not going to solve itself. No, but that's the last part of my discussion with you, Richard. And that is is the new cycle fatigue. You know, I mean, if you looked at the the response of the American people, the American government to the Ukraine invasion on day one, was it February 24th, 22, and and then you compare it to now. Everybody is tired already. And I think that that's a risk that we have. We, all of us have, especially Israel, that people outside of Israel would get tired of hearing about it. They, you know, you get even tired of hearing about atrocities. And then the new cycle gives you something else to focus on before you know it. That's Israel. That's their problem, not our problem. And I really worry about that because that may well happen. Here we are only three, four days into this privacy and maybe we're already going there. Oh, I mean, I think, you know, we humans act out of necessity. And if it doesn't affect you, if you don't think it affects you, then you just you can go focus on whatever it is, you know, go eat a pizza and just live my life. And the the risk is that or the the the mistake is that it does affect you. These things that maybe not directly, maybe not right this second, but these things have a way of boomeranging. I mean, where particularly if they escalate, this is, you know, this. So I think it's naive and short-sighted. But I understand how the new cycle works. And it's unfortunate. I don't have an answer, Jay, to tell you, you know, how to how we can change that. But I think that's, you know, that's just the sad fact is that it's if it doesn't bother people, they don't feel it, that they're going to forget about it's not going to be front of mind. But this is not going away. And this is a global problem. Is my to a large extent, it's less so economically because of oil and the less dependence on the Middle East. So there is there is that element, but it's still strategic to the point where this could very well. This is the kind of flashpoint that starts a world war. Yeah. And, you know, nobody wants a war of attrition either. You know, when when when Putin first invaded Ukraine, everybody said, and they still say this is a threat to the liberal world order after World War Two. And we know we can't have nations attacking their neighbors. We can't have that. We need to have a liberal world order, a civilized global society. And it's clear now that we don't. And that people don't stand up enough, you know, to prevent that. And you worry about Taiwan and, you know, you worry about neighbors, attacking neighbors. Well, here's yet another example. They could have lived in peace. There was nothing actually requiring them to make this attack. Nothing is unprovoked. And so you wonder about the what they call it, the Ukraine effect, the loss of the liberal world order where it is something. And it seems to be spreading like a virus. That's true. The definitely, you know, it's kind of taking it someplace else. There is definitely a the global order geopolitical change for sure is happening. And you're seeing it with extremism and acts like this around the globe. You know, I would say that that when you talk about, you know, you don't want this to be a war of attrition. It's like it's the same thing with Ukraine. It is a war of attrition. That's what it is. This will be a war of attrition, too. I mean, there's no we're so used to this news cycle of give me the solution within this this frame. And the truth is, you know, people need to read more because reading takes time. And, you know, you can't live in new seats. It just doesn't work that way. This is going to take a long time to play out. And I don't know, you know, I don't know what it's going to go up. I know what the possibilities are. And that's true with Ukraine. It's the same thing. I talked to, you know, to my friends who, you know, in the military about what's happening in the UK. You can't have that we want. We desperately want a quick solution. But that's like that's that's Hollywood. It's not reality. And I think we have to, you know, switch our brains or, you know, to be able to cope with that and expect that. I think that's the problem. And that's how bad decisions are made. Because, you know, you have unrealistic expectations. You know, it's the razzle-dazzle. I've been listening to some of the presentations on the news of some of these reporters. I mean, they mean well, but it's Hollywood. They, you know, and now just the way that they talk, it makes you feel like it's a movie. It's not real. And that's unfortunate. But, you know, the thing is it may go away for a little while and you may not hear it, but these things, they're still there. Yeah, that's it. All wars cast a long shadow. Even in the day of Fort Sumter, the Union thought that it was going to be over and, you know, overnight. And we're still fighting the Civil War. It casts a long shadow over history. And this will also, well, Richard, you had enough of this. I'm going to go bang my head on the wall now. We haven't actually solved it, but we certainly have explored some of it. Come pretty close. Come pretty close. Thank you for that. And I hope you don't mind, but in a few weeks time when history plays itself out a little more, maybe we can circle back. I'd love to. You know, I'm not an expert. These are just my views. I'm just, you know, I only hope for the best, obviously, you know, but. I'm in the same place, except I really care. Really, I know you do too. Thanks so much for Richard Worth. I'm our businessman on Bishop Street with a global view. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jane. Good talking to you. The same.