 Hi everybody, this is Matthew Miller. I am the Fedora project leader and this is a Fedora council video call Meetings are terrible. So we try not to do them except it turns out. We also don't get any work done if we don't meet regularly So we do IRC meetings matrix chat meetings Several times a month and once a month about we do a video call where we usually focus on some part of the project Where something interesting is happening or something That maybe needs help or something we want to highlight Today we actually have something a little bit different. We have our proposal to Let's make Fedora officially a digital public good and so we have some folks from that project to talk with us about it and I'll guess I'll turn things over to Justin who brought the idea to us and you can introduce your co-conspirators and Go from there And Then we'll open we'll talk about it. I see there's slides. Awesome. Yes. I do see your slide perfect Cool, so we can go ahead and get started here. So For context this first began like Matthew said there is currently a ticket in the Fedora council Pagor which I'll drop a link here in the chat if anyone is curious We can probably get that in the video description too, but this is extending from that conversation that began in the council ticket so the ticket is proposed is Suggesting or nominating Fedora to apply as a digital public good Based on the conversations we had with the Fedora council back in April and May We decided to do the video chat today as a chance to go deeper on what does this really mean? What our digital public goods is Fedora fit into this and what what comes next? So we'll do a quick introduction for the folks that are here A lot of you know me. My name is Justin. I've been a Fedora contributor for six or seven years now I joined the UNICEF office of innovation in June 2020 as their open source technical adviser there I work with startup companies and UNICEF country offices from around the world on six different continents Building open source projects and communities and following best practices to build a community Which a lot of things I've had the benefit of seeing how it works in Fedora, and I'll pass over to Victor here for Hi everyone. Thank you for welcoming to your community. I must admit. I'm not a Fedora user, but I feel very welcomed here I'm an open source contributor and project maintainer in other parts of the open source universe and I work as the engineering and technology lead at the office of innovation and the digital public goods alliance Which we will introduce shortly Shall I start next slide just yeah over to you welcome up Do you want questions throughout or do you want to do the presentation or how do you prefer to do this? It's up to you. I mean I like like a recession. So Yeah, well, I guess if there's questions that come up it makes sense. We'll definitely have time for Q&A at the end, too Okay, I think that the and the most the more questioning part of the presentation is towards the end I feel the first one is more sharing information and setting up the context. So I think it's less likely to have questions in that part Okay Okay, so next slide. I Like to start with a very brief historic perspective on For prior events that led us to where we are today so that we are all on the same page So very very briefly about three years ago in July 2018 UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres convene a high-level panel on digital cooperation To strengthen collaboration in the digital space among governments private sector civil society international organizations academia and other relevant stakeholders The panel was tasked with raising awareness about the transformative impact of digital technologies Unlocking to ensuring a safe and inclusive digital future for all Fast forward to use later June 2 2020 actually one day from today on June 11 When UN Secretary General presented a set of recommended actions to help ensure all people are connected respected and protected in the digital age There are a number of recommendations in that Report of which I'm going to highlight three first one being achieving universal connectivity by 2030 Another one is promoting digital poly goods, which brings us to the topic of this conversation and that is embracing the Internet's open source and public origins And another one was ensuring and protecting human rights in the digital era so So the report introduces this concept of digital poly goods which include open AI models As for artificial intelligence models open source software open data open content and open standards next slide But what really are digital poly goods So they the report provided this one liner definition of being open source software open data open AI models open standards and open content That a dear to privacy another applicable laws and best practices Do no harm and help attain the sustainable development goals So basically it's like projects in the open that advance Humanity as as a whole but as good as this definition is as a one-liner It is hard to use it as as a flexor as a reference for deciding whether Whether something is or is not a digital poly goods next slide. So that's why some of us About a year ago or more came came up with this notion of the digital poly goods Standard, which again is also an open project with you can contribute give your opinions common See if we are missing something or we're doing something wrong But essentially the the idea behind the standard is operationalize that definition and translated into a number of indicators and a corresponding set of questions that we can ask of any project and Form a common opinion on whether that is indeed a digital poly good or not So we are looking and I'm looking at the right side of the slide on you know These are these nine indicators of whether the project is relevant to the sustainable development goals Whether it uses an approval approved open license. There's clear ownership. There's platform independence meaning It does not depend on some other proprietary Elements part of that down. There's good documentation for sure There's mechanism for extracting data that is not personal identifiable information ideas to privacy and applicable laws and ideas to standards and mispractices and There's no harm which for example, there's no harm. We further unpack into protecting underage users must say moderating harmful content like eight speeds and protecting personally in personal information of Of the users that participate in those projects So we turned all this into Into sort of a question or a submission that we collect information from all these projects and We try to assess fairly and objectively whether a project is a digital poly good or not next slide so So this is the work of the digital public goods Alliance, which was a Multi-stakeholder initiative meaning it was it had UNICEF government of Norway government of Sierra Leone Indian think tank As the founding members, but it's open to more to more entities With the mission of of accelerating the attainment of the sustainable development goals in low and middle income countries By facilitating the discovery and I'll talk about each of those discovery development the use of an investment in digital public goods Next slide so our approach and the digital public goods Alliance of which UNICEF is part of is to on one side identify open-source solutions that contributed to a more equitable world and and We also have these committees of practice which say are groups of experts that further Evaluate and support digital public goods in priority areas currently we have committees of practice in early-grade reading financial inclusion digital health focusing on vaccine delivery systems very timely and climate adaptation and More I will be added over time Then we are also in trying to increase access to solutions via The creation and curation of this right to see of digital public goods goods Which aims to be sort of a catalog or a one-stop shop for for finding projects that advances the development goals whether you are Government that wants to implement you are a member of the community that wants to contribute or you have some ideas That you want to create and you want to don't want to reinvent the wheel You can see what's already existing and and so on and then we through the work of UNICEF and the various governments that we work with Including our funders like Norway. We engage with Pathfinder countries We call Pathfinder countries those that sort of lead the way and you crafted the path to share either existing depages that I Already exist in their countries or those who are interested those countries that are interested in Implementing their national digital infrastructure Using digital public goods instead of relying on proprietary solutions So in a way, we're also trying to tackle the procurement processes of those countries which are complex in nature and Steal one of them or shift them towards the adoption of open solutions Next slide party none to Justin Thanks So building on that part of the conversation So is Fedora Linux fit into this puzzle? How how does how do these two different sides of things connect together? So earlier you probably caught that Victor mentioned the UN sustainable development goals But I want to go back to those really quick and just also provide some historical context as to what these are and Why why this matters in the DPG conversation? so if you're not familiar with What these these sustainable development goals are they came out of a 2030 agenda for sustainable development and this was adopted by all the United Nations member states in 2015 it provides a shared blueprint for peace and prosperity for people in the planet and Now and into the future and at its heart are 17 sustainable development goals or the SDGs Which are an urgent call for action by all these countries developed and developing in a global partnership They recognize that ending poverty and other deprivations They go hand-in-hand with strategies to improve health and education Reduce inequality and spur economic growth all while tackling climate change and working to preserve oceans and forests Which might so just to add some or provide a little more context of how this began even though this was from a 2015 Agenda these goals have been worked. They're not really new. These actually go back all the way to 1992 Where in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil more than a hundred and seventy eight countries adopted agenda? 21 and this was a comprehensive plan of action to build a global partnership for sustainable development To improve human lives and protect the environment. This is really where these conversations were started in the very beginning Building on that as well in the year 2000 United Nations member states unanimously adopted the Millennium Declaration and this included eight Millennium development goals to reduce extreme poverty by 2015 so the Sustainable development goals these 17 goals that have been identified since 2015 and are targeted for the 2030 agenda for global sustainability these are all a part of where these come in together and Like I said, all of these have been these aren't really new ideas or new concepts These are things that we've been talking about for decades already However, there's one of these goals today that I really want to hone in on and how it applies to Fedora So specifically goal nine industry innovation and infrastructure, which is its one-liner definition is building resilient infrastructure promoting inclusive and sustainable industrialization and fostering innovation Okay, so a lot of times when we think of infrastructure we're usually thinking of roads Bridges cars planes trains automobiles all these very physical things But does infrastructure is is infrastructure only physical? In the 21st century, what does digital infrastructure mean in the context of the internet? Dell towers and undersea fiber cables across the ocean Digital infrastructure is this new emerging type of infrastructure for our hyper connected online world Digital infrastructure is the backbone of delivering serving and sharing content to cross the web and over borders Yeah, I don't think you have to sell me on that. I think Fedora Linux is definitely an infrastructure project So where I'm going with this is looking at where we are now with the DP the digital public goods work and thinking about what? infrastructure means our world is more and more interconnected and now we have this opportunity to Really think about what digital infrastructure means the Ford Foundation released a report a couple years ago that? 2018 that was a groundbreaking report on this of like what is this digital infrastructure? And how do we define it and how do we how do we talk about these things? So now is this good opportunity to really look back on the last 20 to 40 years of free and open-source software thinking about key examples of Things that have worked well and things that haven't and finding new ways to empower users or everyday people through technology tying it into Fedora, there's actually some really key Elements of the Fedora community that position Fedora in addition to meeting the digital public good standards that actually put Fedora in a really great up Great position to be able to be involved with this global network So I always like to go to the four foundations since I know there's folks who might not be familiar with that on the call the four foundations are these very structural value-based definitions of of the Fedora community, right? Oh Why we do what we do so how does this tie into the digital public good standard and In digital infrastructure, so I think each each foundation speaks for itself With the Freedom Foundation Fedora was built as free and open-source software from the beginning Fedora only ships and distributes free software from the default repositories were notorious in the Linux world for not Bundling or providing proprietary software by default and Fedora already uses widely accepted Open-source licenses and has even contributed to the definition of some of these licenses in the over the over the decades and Then friends the Friends Foundation Fedora has an international community of hundreds of folks spread across six continents The Fedora community is strong and well positioned to scale as the upstream distribution For arguably one of the world's most widely used enterprise flavors of Linux that's so much of our digital infrastructure Yeah, and then features again Fedora consistently delivering on innovation and features and open source Fedora 34 was a record-breaking release with 63 new approved changes just in that last release 18-year record for us and finally first Fedora leverages its unique position and resources in the free software world To deliver on innovation New ideas and features are trialed out in the Fedora community to discover what works and what doesn't we have many stories of both So looking at this context of how the Fedora community has built has been built and operated over the last 18 years and looking at these Emerging conversations about digital public goods and digital infrastructure and what this means This puts Fedora in a really good great position to help broaden the definition of what digital infrastructure means So often when we look at or at least this is in my own personal experience But you'll see a lot of humanitarian driven projects that have a very specific use case or or goal But I think sometimes we miss or we don't always understand the complexity of all these dependencies and how the internet works from the very lowest level things of you know cabling and infrastructure to DNS and Building up on that in the in the stack Fedora is in a really great position to use its commute not use its community But work with its community to advocate for these things that we've already been doing pretty well for our for almost two decades maybe more if you want to count red hat Linux in there, but This this are all these these contexts to me are what make Fedora stand out as a as a prime example of a Linux distribution being represented as a digital public good in both ways that other Linux distributions that ship or provide proprietary software are unable to do and And also around the licensing piece so here I'll go ahead and pass it. Yeah, you have do you have our vision statement on the next slide here? I don't know. I should have a let me let me read it here because I think this is very very well aligned This is the vision statement that we Adapted just recently the Fedora project envisions a world where everyone benefits free and open source self are built by inclusive welcoming and open-minded communities and I think that's very well aligned with the Initial statement that the digital public goods thing came out of as well. It's kind of a there's there's obviously a shared goal absolutely So for here, I'll go ahead and pass over to Victor just to walk through some of the actual very practical steps of Okay, how do you actually go through this? How do you? Nominate to become a digital public good So I'll pass back over to you Victor Okay, thanks Justin. Okay. So if you have been mildly convinced by Justin's arguments You might be wondering, okay, what do we do now or how do we take this up next slide? so Very quickly the benefits First I want to go over the sort of the benefits of becoming a digital public good as you may say well, yeah, that's great But you know why? I mean, I think that the most important one is the alignment in vision that Matthew was referring to now if we say Take it one level down We want to highlight this three which is participating in a global network of projects and communities and People building a free and open source software of which Fedora already has as strong and big community So you might say well, we already have that there Number two is increase. I mean, it's true increase visibility of open source projects in in the registry Both allowing more users and potential contributors to to discover it for the first time again Visibility might not be the selling point for Fedora But it's I think that there's there's this I see a growing generational trend of people wanting to contribute to projects that that do good that in that leave a mark in the world and being able to classify Fedora the digital public good I think speaks to these growing audience of Young contributors that want to put their skills to good use and then last but not least this is why the reach of global communities through the engagement with Pathfinder countries where you know when we When we get we as the different entities that form this alliance get requests from national regional governments on modernizing their infrastructure We can say well Consider Fedora as as as running the the bag monof of your systems or or things to that end and and building local communities in many of those Countries that can take it up and support it moving forward and and so on next slide next one like next slide and last one is the actual submission process is by we need a or Some representatives of the project that can speak on We have of the project and can make assertions on behalf of the project Where we will ask to compile Answers to the series of questions that cover the the indicators that are presented earlier in this call and There are complete set of questions is available Online of course prior to submitting the form so that there can be further discussion on whether You feel that you have the right answers to those questions or not or and in most cases This is also a conversation where we ask say for a first submission And then we'll go back and say well can you clarify this or can you provide more evidence on that and so on but essentially We will receive the for the submission that you provide it to us There's the first stage where we nominate a process where we say set the threshold fairly low Where we are only looking at open source the open source requirements and the alignment to the sustainable development goals and we then you become one of those 500 or 600 projects that are being Nominated to become a digital public good And then we conduct a more the technical review more extensive review and then if everything checks then we we come to the resolution that this is indeed a digital public good and We we catalog it as a site Justin last slide and That's all that we had prepared for for the presentation today. So Thanks for your your audience and if there's any questions or Anything you'd like to ask you can either put it into the chat or come on audio video Thanks, I definitely I definitely have some questions. First of all, thank you for presenting this and sharing this I think it's a very interesting and like I said, I think the concepts are well aligned I have Some concerns about the obligations we would take up as this first of all Do we obligate ourselves legally to meet certain standards are we agree or are we agreeing to something? Is there or is it just a you are agreeing that we meet these standard? I Would not I mean that's a good question I would not frame it a as a legal obligation and I'm gonna say this by by directionally in that Neither you are obligated legally to comply with that nor we are legally bound to the truth Truthfulness of your answers meaning all the answers that are provided and that allow us to this to to scream you against a digital public good standard are self-reported and We rely on your word on the truthfulness and accuracy of those answers so I'm gonna attack it I'm gonna tackle this from both sides if Someone comes to us and says hey, you said that this is a digital public good and these guys and this project Said that they comply with these standards, but we actually Discovered that that's not true. Then well, we are open to reviewing any submission any time but then we'll say well, this is information that was reported to us and We took their word for it On the other hand If anything changes and say Project a Is open source, but one day they decide to go close source boo, then Well, we we review it and then we remove it from the catalog or from the registry and it is no longer a digital public good Now if we ask you whether you comply with the standards and you tell us that you comply with this set of standards We expect that information to be truthful So one of the standards I think I have a little bit of a hard time with ironically maybe is the do-no-harm one because it's such a what like I Get the idea, but it's such a broad thing and people's idea of what harm is is You know varies from person to person in pretty fundamental ways sometimes And our answer in general has been you know to not restrict fields of abuse for Duralonics and and we have the hope that although we know that that probably does allow for some harm to happen That the greater the overall impact of not having those restrictions Is beneficial to everybody? But I you know I can't necessarily say that that's a do-no-harm stance I know you know people are probably using Fedora platforms for Bitcoin mining and blowing up the environment with greenhouse gases with that I know Fedora is used in high-frequency trading which people think you know is part of the Gigantic problem with your rent taking in the stock market right like those things and Fedora is used as as part of that right there are plenty of other examples you could come up with and I don't know. I don't know how to answer that in a way that feels satisfying I other than saying you know we mean well Just just some context I think coming back to the DPG standard and looking at that clear ownership piece in the context of a project like Fedora That's already well established and has has a pretty large international reach in terms of Users and what people might do choose to do on their own I think that that clear ownership part of the standard and specifically Fedora's I think excellent document public documentation about the trademark and guidelines around using that trademark Would really be helpful here because while I don't say imagine the Fedora project going to deploy Fedora Linux to do Bitcoin mining for the Fedora project If someone else is willing to do that and wants to make a big commotion or big scene about it and raise questions of the Ethics of is this doing harm or is it not I think there's a There's a degree here that this has not been explored. So part of this I think well, maybe Victor has other thoughts there But I think there's part here that through Fedora's management of trademark a lot of those risks about what does harm mean and Who gets to decide what is Fedora Linux or not is mitigated through Fedora's trademark policy Yes, and I I hear you Clearly on the concerns that you have and I will admit that we struggle to some extent with it too and Here is one place where I would welcome any input that any members of your community have in regards to Bringing more clarity on how The do no harm applies to infrastructure projects like Fedora We are going to give an example from another field because and also very in mind that this standard covers Software content data to the new to name three very different and you know looking at content For example, we did some working at the beginning with early great reading aka children's books so we looked at platforms that provided children's books in in many languages and You can and so we were looking at things for like well, are these children's books? promoting you know ideals of of pay of peace and and human dignity and respect and all that or Are they advancing hateful hateful speech and and if and do they have mechanisms say for reporting that that they They someone is trying to publish a racist book or a discriminatory book You know you cannot when in that case we were looking again for mechanisms that Would be able to report flag and remove that type of content without Without you know having absolute control of what anyone or everyone publishes on those platforms or Whether the intent was good, but then someone turn it around and okay They clone the project and they use it for all this you know to publish all these creepy books There's that much that that that we can go but at least we want to capture sort of the intent and The inclusion of mechanisms practices to curve bad behavior where it exists now we have also been Looking at this issue with infrastructure projects like digital IDs and say and and the developers tell us Yes, we developed this project for good and we expect governments to use it for good, but what if then a There a bad actor on the government or an authoritarian government uses these digital identities to discriminate against certain part of the population and I mean At some point we set sort of a boundary between the the ones who develop the project and develop it with good intentions and a good sort of framework framework and allowed for controls and checks and Policies to keep it within that framework and the responsibility of the implementers or the end users who can Turn around that project and use it for whatever they want You know you as a project maintainer are not bound or Responsible for all the potential uses downstream that anyone can make of your project It's it's a very it's a it's a difficult terrain, but still we want to try to carve out a space where we identify projects that are Really are meant for doing good things and when implemented, right? They are advancing really forward I have some questions as far as the process for nomination and all of that from the start of the nomination to approving or you know denying the digital public good deal of approval how long does that process usually take and You know how involved is is the nomination process Is it a Basically, I'm trying to understand how much work it will take and then I guess a follow-up would be is there like you Resurvey or have a conversation with us at any point can we expect you you know have some work to do To keep it up and running Yes, very good question Based I'm gonna give numbers Based on what we have observed other projects to to to take and ask with them so I say that projects take between one or two weeks to Collect the information required to fill in the form that varies greatly of on the The size of the project and how many people each the project involves to compile that information and say Reach an agreement on the answers but so that's a process that would be entirely in your hands and You can get a sense You can get a sense both for the complexity of the information that we are asking Both in the set of questions that we are asking of and you can't review the submissions of the 20 plus projects that we have reviewed already where we publish their answers publicly online So you have sort of a template or certain guidance in framing those those answers Then once you submit that question all that information is captured publicly in open Full requests to our repositories. So everything is transparent Except some contact information that we require to be able to reach out to you that we keep private And then it takes about say one or two weeks Say one week or two or three days for Denomination which is sort of the low threshold review and then between one or two weeks for the more extensive review which might include back and forth Emails or comments on the pull requests seeking clarification on the answers that you have provided Okay, that does give me a good idea another question I have is I see that you have had 585 nominees and 33 approved sorry 33 approved as digital public goods. So that's just it's a low Ratio there so I do I know and I see that the Standards are stringent as they should be but I'm curious like Is there a Can you point to some reason why so little of them are actually approved? Yes, because this We started this we started the the registry or the infrastructure that is this that's behind on the page that you are seeing prior to Establishing the standard and initially our goal was a landscaping effort of Surveying what projects exist in this phase of potentially what couldn't be called digital public goods Without going too deep in each of those projects. So initially we need a very shallow but broad Pass at what's out there which yielded about 400 500 of those Projects and we also cross-checked or we partnered with Similar entities to ours that were building similar lists and we compiled again a lot of information But very shallow on many projects and they were not those Partnering organizations that we were with they were not collecting all that information So it's been only say in the past six or eight months that we have really been digging into the standard and Prioritizing areas so prior before I talked about these committees of practice in health early grade reading a financial inclusion where in each committee of practice we are looking at 10 or 12 projects and We have a very close relationship with each of them and we work with them to do full submissions Review the standard where with them to how they can Or don't overlook certain aspects of their projects so that they are compliant and so on and that's how we get that number to 33 or so. So now we have Say and this is also public on our repo. We have priority areas where we have groups of say eight or ten projects that we are trying to screen through Through the digital through the standard so and it's in in that small group of 10 or 20 that I would put your submission when if when we receive it and these are the ones that we can Review in this one to two week timeframe. We have this backlog of 400 projects of which We have not received a full submission and we do not have the information at hand to screen them properly and We are we are open in acknowledging that it's currently a low priority Enriching out to them until we cleared the backlog of the ones that we do have all that information So that's the explanation for the discrepancy between those numbers. That makes complete sense. I Wouldn't have known that from the web page. I don't know if you want to like maybe add a note if they would be It would help out to understand the context of that number Another question I've got one while you Was going to ask if there are any other Linux based operating systems that have been given the digital public good certification No, not yet. So we would be first in that and do you feel And and I mean Justin is saying this does seem like prior to the scope Do you feel as someone who's been working with this Organization for a long while now that that fedora is a good fit for this Yes, otherwise I wouldn't be presenting here But I Don't but I'll be honest and I don't think this is necessarily a straight shot And I expect some skepticism or some questions for your some pushback and say well, how about this or how about that which and I and I come here sort of very open and hoping that through some of those conversations the standard will evolve and We will get a better sense of you know, what's in and and what's out. So Again, I expect some pushback or some changes to the standard order process as a result of Considering fedora because it is really it is very different from any and all other projects that have all those 33 that have been pretty so far so my my other question is also kind of about our obligations and this one is different from the like the agreement obligations, but perception of our Ability to support people who are coming to this and say ah, this is an approved digital public good Let's say, you know a some nation decides to Standardize on fedora Linux as their national, you know operating system and then they come to us and say You made this thing make sure it works we have this problem fix this this is not working very well This is broken, you know our entire economy collapsed because of you Like what? How do we keep that from happening? Maybe that's a too much victim of our success thing We're not even worried about this level, but I think it kind of is you know, even this happens on You know like people who make an open-source library that becomes popular and then people start demanding There you know their time and the github becomes there, you know trying to entriage requests becomes a full-time job If we're promoting this at this kind of approved, you know Very high, you know world standard kind of level. How do we live up to that? I Do not have the definitive answer to that question, but I guess I'll share with you Some additional work that we are doing I guess to mitigate that concern and that is that well a few things have to happen to reach that stage the first one is that governments embrace open source and they equate it fully to to commercially available solution we are working with governments first to educate the pros and cons of open source the advantages and disadvantages and one big aspect of that education is Telling them that you have to invest in the committee you have to invest in the capacity building and that Well depending on how you implemented or what vendor did you find for for this software You would get one level of support or another The other one is that we again not only we are educating or I don't want to sound paternalistic not only we are working with governments to to Help them better understand what the open source ecosystem looks like but we're also working with some of them to build the local ecosystem of Say communities companies whatever That can't provide that level of support locally because say you pick country X in region Y of the world and I don't think it's sustainable to expect that if they implement national infrastructure at the national level they'll have to rely from Technical support coming from Europe Japan or the US would they would want a strong and very capable local community in that country to provide this Not only the support, but also the development adaptation of that software to their needs So we are working with them and developing resources so that they can take that or they can preemptively develop that that level of local capacity so that they can rely on that committee instead of coming back to you and Blaming you for something that you might not be able to deliver or that you are not expected to deliver All right, I think that's a that's a pretty good answer. I appreciate that Um, I guess my other my question now is for other people in the Fedora council here. What are you thinking about this? Do you have? Positive thoughts, I mean might I'll be I'll go first I'm willing to go ahead even though. I've got some reservations And and see see where this we're exploring it leads us But I'd like to hear what other people are thinking as well. I think it's also something. I'm feeling positive about I'm curious If If there's any like you mentioned the legal things said it wasn't legal obligation, but pardon me socials like to probably Check in with red hat on on the digital public good aspect. I'm not sure I mean, I know we have other red-haters on the call and X red-haters So I'm curious like is this something that we need to kind of involve our parent Operation it probably is and I can take care of that aspect of it Okay, so I just would put be curious. I guess also to hear red hats input on it Before we get our hearts out on it though it does seem like it's something that was aligned with red hats vision for fedora, I think One thing that I'm curious about is How you know having us on that specific list helps us become an enabler of sorts to You know build certain kind of digital public goods from Fedora itself So we are not just one of those goods, but we also help to develop those kinds of goods in future So I'd be really curious if that seems to happen down the line, but Yeah, that is something I'm excited about Again, I very good question and challenging. That's the good type of questions that I'm expecting from this crowd I do not have an answer But I'm also expecting Sort of digital public goods to build on one another or and again fedora, I think it's it's a different It's different than the ones We had Maybe we would have we would need to bring Others to Help us figure out how Developing that ecosystem unfolds Again, I'm trying to make an analogy say for example with we have a Committee of practice around financial inclusion and we have various projects around say the financial stack if you will of Identity payments Interface with banking system and whatnot that each of them are a digital public good in itself But we're also looking at how they Interoperate or how others can build on the systems that they provide I say it's an ongoing Conversation we don't have you know a set of guidelines or anything that we have concluded but That is something that other people are wondering as well in terms of how How how how this bigger brother committee or medical community? Comes about and then and enable something greater than each of the individual projects So we're coming up to our hour here What are our next steps practically speaking? Yes, so practically speaking you would essentially submit Make a submission fill in fill out a form and submit What that means is answering I mean there are nine indicators Some of those indicators are broken into a number of questions and there's some logic on whether this applies to you or not but let's say there are 30 to 40 questions that you would You would need to answer and again we can provide all the questions in advance and You would look into the information that you need to collect in order to make that submission Thank You Lucy for providing that link in the chat here So this is a web-based form Yes, can you start this process and then come back to it or is it a If for the person that starts it yes, you cannot have multiple contributors to the same submission and I'm saying this we we used to rely on commercially available forms that didn't work for us so we developed this in-house from scratch it works for us but the functionality is limited Of course, if anyone wants to improve the form the code is open source and we would welcome that but right now just so that you know You open a session in that form We plant a cookie that remembers who you are and using that form and in the next 30 days It remembers that you started filling in some answers and will pre-populate if you come if you lose it and come back I recommend Filling it in one go though Okay, so Take taking a copy of the of questions offline then filling them and then filling the form That's what I meant. Okay, and I'm actually looking here. It looks actually pretty it is not a long form really It's just a basic questions about each each thing Yes, but be mindful that some questions unfold Yes, I see here Okay Justin Do you want to continue to take lead on this? Do you maybe I I want to talk to some people at Red Hat about how Red Hat feels about this But maybe sometime in the next couple weeks we could do a working session and go through the form and see what happens I think happy to keep up in the council ticket, whatever's yeah And I think that we can actually like go through with some of this process and start working on it because I don't hear any loud objections And if at some point, you know, the council is feeling uneasy we can we can Adjust or stop what we're doing and maybe make a Further official decision once we're kind of further along in the exploration. I think that makes most sense to me in line with the Fedora council principle of do things rather than wait wait for approval and When when there's when there's not Negative consequences. Let's just let's just see what we can do And Matthew for your information as an ad disclosure Lucy and I from the digital poly goods alliance. We have been talking to some people at Red Hat mostly on their corporate responsibility arm a around possible collaborations and possible support from Red Hat to Digital poly goods at large So I say that I'm just saying this so that yeah, they have some awareness, but Can you tell me who you've been talking to either here or send me email? I can I can oh I'm sure that was a break. You say Deb Bryant. Yes. Yes. That's one of them. I don't know if that's it Okay That's awesome because Deb was one of the first people I was planning to talk to about this anyways, so She's she's aware or like she's aware of the of our work and you should have an easy or she should have some context for this conversation All right, that sounds good And I think we're actually over the hour here. This is a good conversation Then do we have something scheduled for our next month? you're muted or No, oh Well, maybe maybe next month our session will be about pipe wire and how great it is at audio redding Thank you everybody. I'll see you around and we'll do the skin video next month. Bye. Thanks Justin and Victor Hi everybody