 Welcome everyone. Welcome here in this room and welcome on screen somewhere. We are together for a special discussion this afternoon on migration, the societal challenge of migration. My name is a little hinders, I am part of this presentation here, I will inform you about the honest program. Then I will give the floor to my colleague, Courtney Reik and who will talk about Timiko the research network that we have at Tilburg University. Then I will give the floor to two speakers present presenters today, Max Spotti, he works at the Faculty of Humanities and Digital Sciences, and then the other speaker today will be Mario Brackman, sorry, he is working at the law faculty. And after that we will have a discussion and that will be led by our colleague Chris Van Mol. And then we promised you to have an opportunity for networking and drinks but I guess we do that the next time that we can meet in person and we organize this as an in person meeting that we all know how that changes every week. The first things that I want to say is to Amelieke Koster, Studium Generale, she has organized the whole event. Thank you, Amelieke for helping us out. Okay, first, a short presentation on what we are doing in the context of the societal challenge of migration from the perspective of research. And I open my PowerPoint for that. Yeah, please, Max help me out because. Thank you very much. Okay, I will tell you a bit about the Honest Program and I will not do that on my own I've only four slides just to inform you but I have invited one of our fantastic students Lina Zampstenberg will you be there or will you join me or will you join me later. It's more fun to be here to be here together. Okay, so the societal challenge of migration is the Honest Program that we have in Tilburg University and that means that we are offering students on top of their regular program. We have a program of four courses interdisciplinary courses. And all these courses are somehow connected to migration but also all of them show have chosen another perspective to put on the whole on all the issues of migration. To start, I did one of these courses this semester so from September on to today, and you were in this course Lina. And one of the things that happened at the time have made it enormous, immediately enormously difficult but also interesting from September on till now. We started with the fall of Kabul so to say many people who would, who wanted to get out of Afghanistan many people who entered Europe or other nation states and really had positioned themselves in the, as migrants on. I want to get out I want to live somewhere else that was in August. Then we had, we still have the enormous difficult conflict in the East Poland and Belarus, a board a typical border conflict, very, very complicated from the perspective of what is happening here and who is doing what and why are suddenly all these migrants in Belarus and what is the political context in which this is happening. And then quite recently we talked about even in our course on the tragic events that were happening on the sea between Canada and the UK. We have a very complex European context in which this is happening, have the Minister of France telling oh the UK is much too easy everyone can work there as an illegal person and then the UK saying you are not doing your border control very well so everyone is saying something about what the others should do. What is happening today, but in the program in the courses that we offer you, of course we put these events in a bigger context from different perspectives, different paradigms different research questions that that we try to, to discuss in a way to answer from habits with the student group. But it's very important, and I hope that that's, Nina will tell more about it is that these courses are very much, I think engaging discussion. We are not offering you just okay this is knowledge reproduced but we really try to find out what students think what are the perspectives on issues like this happening and also what are the consequences what is the responsibility for students today in regard to this type of difficult questions. So I would say this is really education with with an impact. So here is a slide in which you can see what four courses we are offering now and also how our Rector Magnificus Wim van der Donk is is is enthusiastic about the program. He explains on the website of Tilburg University that you can choose this in your bachelor program when you have more than seven average in your first year. You can use it to broaden your knowledge with other scientific disciplines, and if you have done it, you will certainly get it a certificate that you have done this on this program on top of your regular program. These are the courses that we have organized starting in the beginning of 2021. January, February, first courses were theoretical perspectives on international migration that was organized by Christopher more from the School of Social Sciences and then border and trajectory sorry I see a typo here. Corny Reagan, together with Miriam von Reisen law faculty and humanities and digital sciences combined. In September I started with migrant narratives and experiences very much a humanities topic but then related to interdisciplinary concepts as well. And of course it also started in September is perspectives on the economic economics of migration by who land on the girl and you can see that that is really a Tyson course from the economic faculty. You can say a bit more later, Lena about the differences of the courses or what you liked most in them I just another slide to inform you how many students are doing this we have now had the four courses are done at this moment by 91 students coming from different faculties. And, as I said already the didactic principle of doing this program is that students are together in a class they have different interests, different perspectives different regular programs. This very much has a consequence for the discussion, sometimes we really have a discussion from the law perspective European law, international law, and other times it is more on on culture. And that is sometimes the clashing between paradigms let's say is is interesting as well. We, yeah how we developed over the years we are doing the honest program since 2013. First it was European discourses oh sorry that is still on top, and now we have turned it into the societal challenges migration, but you can see that we have received many more students over the years. What is most interesting I think is that it is organized over schools, it's not one school that is responsible, it is a combination of schools and people really thinking we should work together on on this topic. Now Lena, this is up to you questions, and maybe the first question that I would like to ask you as what is the motivation but was your motivation for doing the program. So, maybe I can start by introducing myself first. I'm Lena, I'm a 30 student of international sociology and my motivation for doing the honest program in general was a mix of curiosity but of course also I was really interested in getting a certain certificate to do something on top of my university study just because I felt like sociology in itself of course is already very interdisciplinary or has very many possible roads, which you can turn to. So I felt like I wanted an honest program that could give me more information on top of my study without kind of just reproducing what I already know. And that's why I found this interdisciplinary honors program very interesting just because I do like to be engaged in different types of like paradigms different discussions people that do not have the same opinion as me. And I do feel like the honors gives a great platform where a lot of different people can come together as you already said. And it's just a very nice kind of more relaxed atmosphere than some of my classes just because we are, we all have it on top of our regular schedule so sometimes it's just very okay to not be very prepared for every class, but everyone just kind of helps one another and I really like that kind of like extra community that you get on top of your regular studies. So I think those are my main motivations to choose but also keep going of course because sometimes it is quite a lot of work, but I thought it was always manageable. So you have followed two courses now in this migration program, and could you tell a bit more about both and the differences between them. Exactly. So I choose the courses border and trajectories and the other course that we're having right now the migrant one. And I would say they're in general talking about similar but very different concepts so we were talking really a lot more about like, what kind of board like what influence borders are really having the social construct of borders on migration flows and so on and I feel like the class that we're having right now with the migrant experiences and narratives is more literary focused instead of really policy and scientifically focused. Of course, that is very interesting to me because I'm not part of culture studies or literary studies. So that really gives me like an extra thing to analyze and an extra thing to learn which I really enjoy because I never would have thought when I started studying in general, that I would be doing literary analysis for example because I always kind of just disregarded it as oh that's not as scientific not as important now I very much understand that it's just as scientific as everything else that we do here in uni. So, I really like that all of these program, all of these different courses have very different focuses so none of these courses even if they're in the same topic are actually the same so I'm also really excited for the next course I'm going to be choosing. And I mean, there's also economic focus that would also be an interesting avenue to look at. And then also, of course, the theoretical perspectives like it's really hard to choose a certain course just because they are kind of so different but still interesting. I also asked you how does it add to your regular program that you already said, so you were not expecting yourself to do something like literature or culture studies and now it comes in. Yeah, it really just, you know, like expands your methodology it expands the way you're thinking about things like feel like before that I was even thinking a bit too one dimensional and I feel like it really helped me just with my own study of course, because I could like see, you know, the way I write papers, the way I tackle, you know, reading a paper for example, has been impacted by this course, even if it's, you know, just a few courses that you take by the site it's there's something that is with you, or that has been with me now for the past one and a half years. And I think it can really benefit you also in the long run and kind of with your studies yourself but also just on a personal level I've always found it very interesting. Thank you. Fantastic advertisement for the program. Maybe one last question that I like to rephrase it. And not so much. What would you advise students because you are so enthusiastic I guess that you advise them to do it but maybe now rephrase the question in what type of student. Do you have to be in order to be capable of doing this. I think who's not overwhelmed by having a lot of different topics and a lot of different things to work on. And someone who's open minded someone who's open for discussions, definitely. There's one thing as the idea student which is why we have so many different departments such like a diverse mix of people and I think that's really what it lives for so I can't really advertise for this one idea student type. But it's really the community and the being together that being said, of course, I'm trying to make it look all really good and right now. Of course, it's going to be a lot of work and it's still an honest program. So it is not for everyone it is not. It is something that you should kind of see as a commitment that goes longer than. Oh, I'm just going to have you know a diploma in the end because you really can't go get far like that it really has to be coming from your own interest and. I think open mindedness is the biggest part because we're all going to be confronted no matter which study you're from I thought in the beginning like sociology oh that's going to be pretty much the same. As what we're already talking about a class but it really is not so as long as you're open to information that might not even be in your normal study. Do it. Thank you. Fantastic presentation. Thank you for having me and let me pick up the open mindedness I think that that goes for the lecturers as well. So you do not have one type of public it's a bit different from your from my ordinary courses as well and that is, yeah, that is the fun of it. Okay, thank you very much this was an introduction on honors program as we promised, and I hope that you see that honors program is an education focus on on the topic of migration. We are now connected to Timiko and Konirajka will tell more about Timiko as a researcher network. But I also see that there are very new initiatives and certainly so with the new strategic plan in mind I think that starts in the coming year. And also this this meeting today also is an invitation for you to come up with IDs or if you would like to join as a student on this program you can contact via via the website Karen bear code. If you would like to participate as a teacher do contact us it's it's open we are not very formally structured that really open in order to to work together. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you very much for this introduction we now focus a bit more on research and if you in the meanwhile and time have questions either about the honors program or later on, if, if the presentation starts or what I'm going to tell you, then please do. So thank you for joining us and I'm very happy that that I can introduce you. Well, for some it is an introduction to Timiko Timiko is the Tilburg migration community. And we have established this community in early 2020, and and we had our first kickoff event in February in 2020. So thank you for joining us and I'm very happy that that I can introduce you. Well, for some it is an introduction to Timiko Timiko is the Tilburg migration community. So thank you very much for joining us in early 2020. And, and we had our first kickoff event in February in 2020, and then just there after came Corona. And then to reconnect again and that was the aim actually of today with all the researchers, including the students from the honors program and other interested colleagues and persons, but unfortunately that event is organized the way it is organized now. So the Tilburg migration communities actually to to bring together the researchers at our university in the different schools, working on migration so sometimes you had. It was an event, then you, you met a colleague we didn't know from another school to find out that you work on very similar topics. So we with Timiko we aim actually to create a platform, a community where we have the possibility to meet each other to exchange our IDs. And then on the in the medium or long term also to work more closely together. Because migration actually is a topic that you that you look at from different lenses and with an interdisciplinary view actually so that is now also reflected very well I think in the honors program. So in the research, and I think for most of us working on migration research we have that interdisciplinary approach. Now, and so why then do we have to look at those different lenses well first of all migration is a topic that that manifests itself at different levels so you have on the international level with increased mobility. And with the globalization, a need for a more international approach, but also there is developments on regional level, for instance in the European Union but not limited to the European Union so we have for also in Western African community that is where we have that that is another level and then further down to the national level how does it actually how does migration migration law migration policy migration integration how does that work on the national level. So looking at it from the lens of the individual. Well, you have the three phases so the face before people are migrating but also during the migration and then after the migration of the pre and Perry and post migratory faces. So that can happen. And that you can look at isolated but of course, you should look at them more interconnected. And then there is different types of research. And that's, and we have different disciplines, we have different methodologies for doing the research qualitative quantitative normative research fundamental research, etc. So if we have the possibility to combine that here at our university within our till the migration community then I think we can enrich science, but we can also enrich ourselves. So, now the aim is of Timico is to have regular meetings, once every quarter once every half year so at least two times a year, where we invite, or, or one of our researchers wants to present his or her research, and where we then have a discussion. But it's also, maybe have our own website that has been established under the impact program because the Timico runs under the impact program, namely the pillar of a resilient society. So you can find our website and also all the members of our community so far. You can find them on the website of Timico under the impact program. So, if you are interested as the invitation that's a deal already gave also applies of course for Timico then please contact one of us, and then we connect you to, to the work of Timico. So we have a twice a year, we, at least twice a year we have meetings and then we try to facilitate the, the community and the communication and collaboration within our university. So, this is Timico. So, this is another Timico event, together with studio general as already was mentioned, and I'm very happy that we have two colleagues to scientists from different schools that are presenting. So, first of all, the first speaker that is Max spotty he's an ethnographer and an associate professor at the Tildex School of Humanities and Digital Science, and working amongst other other topics on the implications of the internet for the process of asylum seekers and that is also the topic we will be talking about this afternoon, practicing and the politics of suspicions. Then afterwards he will hand over to, to my colleague Mario Brackman who is professor at Silberg Law School. He's a psychologist and psychiatrist specialized in cultural psychiatry and ethnography work for many years as a psychiatrist and psychotherapist at the clinic for refugees with severe mental disorders. Afterwards, Christoph, my other colleague will come to stage to lead the discussion and for you, the audience, please feel free to write your questions your observations your points for discussion in, in the chat because I'm sure you will have some points. So without further ado, I hand over to, to Max, the floor is yours. Thank you very much. So, let me set up the timing first. Well, thank you for having me here to Miko people. Thank you for having me on this program people, and, and thank you to the people that are at home online, wherever you are but still online for listening to my story. So, a little bit about my background, couple of minutes. I am. Yeah, well, depending on where you go to, you're either a social linguist or a linguist anthropologist, if you go to the US, and if you go to the UK, or you tend to hang out in Europe. If you're a social linguist ethnographer, fundamentally, I'm very much interested into what do people do with their identities with their language and an ethnographer what does anographer do is interested in writing about people and documenting people's life. And in this case, the documentation of people lives was about what does it mean to be an asylum seeker in times of globalization. What does it mean to be an asylum seekers in times of digitalization that was my driving inquiry my driving my large focus. I said I should start with the time by the way, otherwise I'll carry on talking too much. So, I'll share with you guys my presentation, which goes back. The presentation is called trapped into the matrix of narrative in mobility language identities and the internet in asylum seeking case. Now, the story to make a long story short fundamentally the four as anthropologists do trying to make the strange familiar or the familiar strange depends on your positionality. I've been living for a period of time in asylum seeking center in asylum seeking center in East Flanders. And in this asylum seeking center I was taken on board as the anthropologist so on the one hand you had people telling me, do you work are you, you know, police officer or police officer in this asylum seeking center. No, not at all. Are you then a refugee. One of us, so to say, and the other answer was of course not not even though I may look like one big scruffy with a beard. And then, and then the last question was of course, then, who the hell are you. And the answer was I'm somebody as you should be open about your anthropologist doings. I'm somebody very much intrigued about your lives about your doings in globalization in digitalization, and in this socio cultural space. So, without any further postponing, let's go to the presentation. What types of diversity do we meet in our daily lives in the news on sociological platforms or in the streets, we do meet plenty of diversity we meet the successful diversity that we may encounter in this university that when we encounter in in companies so successful diversity at work. We encounter accepted exotic diversity in exotic events like this one. But we also we, we encounter more and more as you were mentioning before that diversity is something that is making people scared, making nation states scared. And so there is a form of securitized diversity in which all of a sudden we see the emergence of borders, borders that are both controlled securitized tangible, but also times untangible. Another form of diversity therefore that comes that follows with securitized diversity is immobilized diversity. The sort of diversity that Europe in as much as other continents don't seem to want on their territory, or let's not be so drastic. They maybe want this diversity, but first they need to check that this is the good type of diversity that can be allowed to pass the borders and to enter their, their soil. So, I, when I was entering an asylum seeking center, it was an asylum seeking center from the Red Cross, and not a federal asylum seeking center. If you understand for myself from an anthropological point of view, what is actually an asylum seeking center, it's a space through power kind of space is that well it's a it's a place first of all, where globalization and I should add that digitalization are key. There, local happenings are shaped by events happening many miles away. What you see the, the population, leaving the, the guest, as they're called in the jargon of the asylum seeking center, living in asylum seeking centers are a reflection of political events or war of conflicts that are going on, and of suppression that is going on many miles away. So, what, what is actually who is the migrant nowadays in a global digitalized super diverse time. It's a person who is mobile, and who can be made immobile by institutions, but he's also an acquired life is opposition is a, is a person with a mobile phone, so we have mobile people but they're also people with a mobile. This was one of the things that I realized as soon as I enter the center is a channel for transnational activities, activities back home activities that may mean the simple sending of remittances back home or receiving money, but also activities that can be looking after your own family, and now political actions, telling people home how you are doing, and giving them tips about how to start their moves from the rest to the West, so to say. So, once you enter an asylum seeking center you have is glossed over term migrants, but what is a migrant and what are the trajectories time wise, you can have long term migrants that are there in the asylum seeking center for two years or more short term, or a new real live migrant transitory because once they filed their application that might go into illegality, high skill migrant low skill migrant highly schooled. Anyway, what is common to all of them is that there are complex trajectories of migration, not anymore, as I said before moving from the rest to the West, but moving from point A to point from point A to point B, back to point A, in order to move to point C, whatever is mostly favorable, favorable to to file a or to try to start a new life. Another character, another few characteristics that are key, and that you emerge from an asylum seeking center is that the people that are confronted with a high integration pressure from institutions, but they're also confronted with a high institutional power in the informal economic texture of those society. Migrants home backgrounds in terms of legal in terms of social linguistic cultural ethnic religious backgrounds are not presupposable, as we should afford that they were before globalization and digitalization. What you have sort of named this asylum seeking center is the waiting room of globalization, the waiting room of globalization in which sense. You are waiting for your destiny to take place. Yeah, I don't know if you guys are acquainted with Goddard attendant Goddard, and there is this people waiting for Goddard to show up and give them a finally away where to go toward their future but that's exactly the same thing that you see in a way in, in a in an asylum seeking center, people wait. People wait for institutions to make a decision. People wait for lawyers to write them a letter. People wait from the migration authorities to receive a letter back that approves or disapproves their stay. They don't fundamentally do a lot, but they also do a lot of waiting, and that waiting seems a passive thing, if you want to describe it in that way, but it's absolutely not so. The first second of this of this study at the asylum seeking center we had we had 61 guests 40 females and 21 males or which 11 were minors without parents or foster carvers. Five enter the center in 2011 by now this data are rather old but it's the principle that we are focusing on that are interesting. In 2010, I collected this data in 2012, only two guests were born in the 50s. So, in the words of a director of the asylum seeking center is asylum seeking center is hosting people that are trying their luck in Europe. They move to Europe other because of the political conditions in their own country, or because of health reasons or because of gender discriminations reasons. One of the big things that happens in the center in this waiting room of globalization of course is the fact that there is a continuous issue of identity construction, which is my obsession, so to say, research wise. I am intrigued by how identity are constructed by institutions. I'm intrigued about how, how identities are constructed discursively by human beings. I'm intrigued about the process of identity construction in what a term power saturated environment like this one, but also like the environment in which somebody is telling their life stories to officials police officials immigration offices and so forth. So that's my case with this very interesting quote, at least in my in my view which I present to my students quite often at 845 in the morning on Monday morning and they hate me for that on identity. You are who you are partly because of what you do, and partly because what you do is recognize for what it is by yourself and the others who are doing it. I'm from my old time here or James G from discourse studies, and I've reiterated and reappropriated in my, in my work in 2007 about developing identities, where I call them informal theories of mind, or discursive parameters for the construction of identity. The point. The applicants on identity claims is assessed against the presupposed truth. The reason you're considering your asylum seeking claim is assessed on the basis of knowledge of facts of things that you should know because you claim to come in to becoming from a, from a given state from a given city from a given socio cultural group, and on the basis of someone's my micro behavior. The Western is this emphasizes the Western institutional paranoia of belonging. We need to place you somewhere, and we will try to place you there on the basis of what we're mostly acquainted with an equation between one language, one territory, one grouping of people. Very much the institutions are very much switched on to this equation of one language one territory one group of people in which you should be able to fit in. You should be indigenous indigenous of a place that you can that you claim to be coming from so the identity of the applicant is registered and I will open up this funny term in a moment in a legal discourse where the notion of truth is central for the acceptance of the applicants claim. The story that the forum about to present you guys is a story that I define as ergoic taken from Latin Ergo, the therefore you came you claim to come from place X ago, you should know some facts, you should know some issues that I play, you should know the politics of the place, even though maybe you've been belonging to the people that had to flee away, or you've been belonging to the people that were in charge and all of a sudden there was a coup d'etat, and you had to move away and go for a zallium for instance in Europe. I'm taking you guys now to Conakry, or better to Guinea Conakry, and in particular we will go down to Conakry. And I want you guys to take a look at the city of Conakry, but in particular at this area here on the on the map, which is the area that will be mostly relevant for the story that we're about to hear from the asylum seeking applicant that I will introduce to you in a moment. Right, our protagonist of this story because fundamentally what we're doing right now is not just a presentation, I'm narrating the life story of somebody who has been filing for the zallium. So, this person that I am narrating and giving voice to, we will call him BK. He claims to be younger than 18 years old at the time of coming to Belgium, Flanders, he's a Muslim, he claims to be coming from Guinea Conakry, he claims to come from actually the capital city of Guinea Conakry that is Conakry. So the father is from the Malinka ethno-linguistic group, the mother is from the pearl ethno-linguistic group. Authorities decided by surprisingly in my sociolinguistic view to assign him as the mother tongue, the Malinka mother tongue, which is actually the language of the father. So there is a bit of a contradiction, sociolinguistic contradiction there, that your mother tongue all of a sudden is the language of the father. Therefore, there is another nice lovely intricacy there going on. The arbitrary assigned language for the procedure and for the interview and therefore for the conversation that he has been having with the officers, immigration officers was French. French is of course present in Guinea Conakry, yet again, we are talking of an allegedly 18-year-old man who is barely schooled, who can barely read and write, who has a knowledge of French, and that he recognizes French and he can utter things in French, but he has never been schooled in French. The only schooling that he has received is Quranic schooling. Therefore, he is highly proficient in classical Arabic, he knows the Quran by heart, however, that's as far as it goes. But that's an interesting and relevant thing. Furthermore, visit an interview taking place in Flanders, whereas you know in Flanders, French is not really the language that he mostly widely used. So the interviewer is going to have his own Belgian accented, Flemish variety of French during this interview, that really gets a bit tricky in order to do meaning making. Like being indigenous, so claim that you're coming from a given place, in order to do so, one needs to know the facts about a country, one needs to know the language of the country, one needs to know enough information in order to keep things real. And here we go back to these westernized ideologies of territory, language, and naming more things that come into play, and here I'm referring to the work of Sue Gal, and the work of Gal and Irvine from the linguistic anthropological perspective. And then before I use this concept and regiment and regiment is taken spray from the work of Asif Agha, who uses this notion in linguistic anthropology, and he's a process that he defines as follows, as follows, a process in which semiotic forms of expression, verbal and nonverbal are linked with an ideological institutional frame. This linkage interns puts someone's identity in a certain space within a certain institutional frame of true false narrativity. In other words, there are matrices that are matrices of narrativity that institutions are respecting from the candidate who's applying for asylum seeking. Hence, the candidate who's telling a story, the candidate who's writing a story, the candidate who's, who's giving proof of identity, needs to match this register needs to match this matrix in order to be considered truthful in his claims. I will need about an hour to explain a register maintain say doubt but I'll go with a, you know, short and sweet slide. In other words, to keep you real, you need to know, as I was trying to say before the right register that is you need to espouse the right cultural model, the links forms of semiotic expression to types of identity contacts. And here we go. This is the letter that BK received while I was doing my fieldwork at the asylum seeking center. It's a letter written up, typed up actually in French is from a social linguistic sorry from a linguistic anthropological perspective, this is an artifact. It's a product of narrativity. This is the letter that is basically telling to BK. I'm terribly sorry my friend, you have to go home. We cannot allow you to stay here in Belgium planters. This letter was written up in French is the summary. So to say, is a textual artifact is a summary of the interview that has taken place between the migration authority. And the general commissioner for migration in Belgium, and BK. It's a very interesting artifact from an anthropological society with the point of view, because it narrates again a story from the matrix of the authority. It recaps a little bit. Let's go back to what happened to BK. BK came on the 7th of February 2012. The father was a Malinka the mother is, is a pearl, the family of the parents that they wanted to have them separated because of ethnic differences. In December, December 15th of January, all sorts of things happen until the father was murdered by the by the family of his mother. And from there, there is the starting of the many, many, these adventures misfortune of BK, the brought him to flee away from Conakry. And the other is that, and in this slide, which is the second part of the letter, the authorities do point out in French, what are the things that make him result as not truthful. So where did he go from where did BK, not managed to match the matrix, the matrix that the authorities wanted to receive any story. There are a lot of things, but I would like also to draw your attention on this line, which is a line in which they talk about the big, the big mosque, the ground mosque, Faisal de Conakry, which in the interview, I didn't have access to the actual live access to this artifact and to have a chat with BK and with BK roommates that read out this letter to him because he couldn't read the letter himself so this letter has been read out to him. And this idea of La Grand Mosque, and bear in mind this idea of La Grand Mosque and this name La Grand Mosque because it's not the official name of the mosque, right. The official name of the mosque that was retrieved by the by the immigration officer is the Mosque Faisal, which by the way, it was retrieved by the officers from the internet. So please do pay to the food to La Mosque Faisal, please do pay to food.com pay to food. If you know it's a website for tourists. And it's used in order to give some exotic information about the for for those exotic tourists that want to go off to Guinea Conakry and visit Guinea Conakry. And therefore, the immigration officers themselves have been using not official indigenous sources, but sources that they can drive from the internet and they support their own understanding of things to recap and conclude, following the previous text BK in that text didn't know a few things. The name of the four areas that make up La Commune. The name of the areas that make up the city was happy to call it la ville. The name of the mosque, La Grande Mosque, the name of the bottle water most sold in Guinea. The name of the money used in Guinea, it was happy to call it large on. Remember, all this happened in French, and it was not, you know, the name of the football team in Guinea, which is something that a boy of his age, should know of course, accordingly to the authority. The name of any Guinea and TV channel it was happy to call it la TV. The name of the market where he went with his father, Lumache, according to BK. Now, discrepancy of registers. If I was taking instead of the mosque of Faisal, I was taking these other monuments, right. The college in which you also know, and I was being interviewed by a police officer who was trying to claim whether I'm really from the place that I'm indigenously from Italy. Then I would have a bit of a difficulty because I call this place equal of sale. Okay. Now, here we go again, the same with the big most La Grande Mosque, while he should have been saying the most you face up. Here we go. This is the way in which you can actually name the Coliseum. The Latin name is amphitheater in Flavio. The Italian official name is amphitheater Flavio in standard Italian. And it's the Colosseum in Roman variety of Italian is air Colosseum and tourist quite happily call it the Coliseum. In anthropology what you do, you go off and do a tertium comparazione so you compare your findings in the asylum seeking centers with other people that were present in the asylum seeking centers so I interviewed other people from Guinea Conakry and asked them, look guys, how about this mosque? How do you call it? All of them agreed that the common name for this people for this mosque was La Grande Mosque. That's as far as he goes. None of them could actually recite because it's a matter of reciting the story, the exact official name that by the way the authorities had found on petit food, which is an tourist website for naming this mosque. Here we go back, register discrepancy, register discrepancy, the discrepancy of a narrative matrix, the discrepancy of naming things and how somebody name things right. Thank you very much, and I will conclude it here. Thank you. Thank you, Massim Miano for your very interesting talk. I hope we have some time to discuss it so I'll hurry up because we are. We don't have much time anymore but I'll try to stick to 20 minutes and let's see. Thanks for inviting me. My name is again, Marie Brachmann and indeed I'm a psychiatrist that is someone who studied medicine for six years, get this master and then decides to study five more years to become a psychiatrist. But that wasn't enough for me I created my own honors program by studying anthropology as well and I did field work and I finished my master as well in anthropology and that creates a kind of a schizophrenic professional identity I'm afraid because very often I do things as a psychiatrist that the anthropologist in me says well, don't do that. And so it's quite busy inside my head but I still feel very healthy. And I want to do. Well, I was asked to give some reflections on migration and asylum seekers and I work with asylum seekers for about 25 years that that are my main patient group and nowadays I redirect my attention to what we call illegal migrants but people are not illegal so I prefer the name undocumented on a short people who stay in the friends of the Netherlands and hide and so my whole career I'm busy with asylum seekers refugees and I have some reflections I want to make as an, not as an anthropologist but as a psychiatrist and as you might know, in psychiatry we have a kind of holistic view that we look at the bio psychosocial world. So we take three perspectives at the same time. And that's the way we look at our patients and from every perspective I want to give you a small reflection and a quick idea I do it is about by a lot biology I focus on ethnicity and pharmaceuticals. And the social aspect, I focus on acculturation and psychological thing is all about cultural identity that just three examples of very complex working area. But let's start with something positive. And, of course, when migrants are in the news, especially asylum seekers, then. It's all about culture shock forced migration war and trauma and post traumatic stress disorder mood disorders anxiety etc etc and that's all true. We have a group of people with very severe problems and it's very tough for them but let me first start with stressing also the other side and that is. So, goes through certain developmental stages called separation, integration phases that is that the first one happens when you are very young child and then suddenly you start to realize that you are not the same person as your mother but you are different you are an own individual and then the first separation process takes place between you and your mother or mother figure. The second one is in puberty. When you have another separation phase from your from your family, and some an actor tells us that refugees migrants in general have a third individuation phase. We have a third separation and in this sense from the culture of origin. And that third individuation phase is something very interesting and very positive that is not something that can be achieved by non migrants and anthropologists try it by doing some fieldwork and we get cultural relativistic stands more or less and migrants have a special extra thing that most people who do not migrate don't have. And how many non migrants are in the world that's the other thing I want to stress. Why chromosome my DNA I send it to a laboratory and they have geneticists who can tell me how the father of my father of father of mine migrated across the globe and of course it started all in Africa itself. And that's the red point there and it started about 200,000 years ago and for 100,000 years, people migrated through Africa, and after 1000 year 100,000 years, a few of them thought well let's go to Saudi Arabia and see how life is over there and that just a few hundred people who migrated to Saudi Arabia and from there, they migrated through Europe, Asia, North and 1000 America, Australia, etc. Why is this important, this is my first perspective to biological one. It's important because during that migration process. There are a lot of genetic differences who occur and they are important because enzymes in our body, especially in the liver, they vary between ethnic groups, they are not the same. And why is that important because due to migration, non Western populations are confronted exposed to Western pharmaceutical products builds medicines and all available medicines in pharmacies in the Netherlands in Europe or in the United States. All those products that can be obtained by prescription only by a doctor, all those products are tested among white Western populations. So we do not know how these medicine behave in people who come from other parts of the world. And from the few studies we do have, and I know all of them, I guess, we know that there can be huge differences in effect that can be huge differences inside effects. And even I think that people could die because of doctors not knowing what they really are doing with someone else's body or mind in prescribing certain medicines and what we did here is we did a study and assembled all several studies in the metabolism of drugs and this is a system called to see 19 and what what what you what can be shown here is that you know the lever gets rid of your medicines that are entering your body and that's good because medicines are kind of toxic substance and they need to leave the body again. So this system to see 19 gets rid of a lot of medicines in your body. However, they do that on a certain normal rate and not too fast not too slow. However, if you look worldwide and you see that there are huge differences across populations in the world. And if you look at the top it's difficult to see but that's India over there and Pakistan up to 80% of the population there are normal metabolizers so they do get rid of those drugs in a non normal way so they are deviant in one way or another. And that's very peculiar because normally what is deviant is a minority of patients in this case. 80% of the patients that's a majority and so the majority of people in India they metabolize medicine in a very different way in that body. And we should know all these kinds of things and there is a lot to know about but I'm not going to explain everything today that's due to time limits. So I'm going to switch to the second the social level and this as a psychiatrist treating people from other countries, other cultures. This helps me a lot. This little matrix. This is a very good way to integrate can follow four main strategies of acculturation they can become a alienated acculturated remain in the traditional sense by not adopting the culture in which they migrate to but they remain in that and recreate that in the Western world, what it can become by cultural, in which they have their own culture of origin and adopt more or less the Western culture and this is very helpful in trying to understand people. There's psychiatric problems and you need a kind of socio cultural context social context to to understand them better, even certain criminal acts can be explained by this schedule and it's it's only it consists only of two dimensions that is, do you keep your culture of origin, or do you get rid of it. What do you do you do you do you do with the Western culture do you accept it in this case the Dutch culture, or do you not accept it that can lead to separation nationalization integrations etc. So this is a very helpful scheme. And going to the psychological level of identity is it's completely different from medicines or social context but it's also related to everything and to go from the social to the psychological, let me give you a small personal background, I was raised in three languages, German, Dutch, and my own native language and that's ripararian, and the ripararian is a language that not many people know about, but it's a Dutch language. And as you can see here on the bottom right you see five colors, and those are the five different colors of the Limburg languages that are spoken of five of them. However, if you look at the South Limburg you see in the in the East, a small part, which is white, and that part is on this overview to the left has another color and it's this violet kind of color and it's the ripararian area and it's spoken in Kerkraden, Vals, and Bohols, and that's where I'm from. So, if we look at the cultural identity, let me first say that it is very important for my patients and for me as a psychiatrist who tries to assess what what's going on with them and what is their problem, and how to solve it it's crucial to have an idea of identity and cultural identity, especially but it's very difficult to get hold on because it is not something that is fixed, it is fluid. And let me take myself as an example again, if the Dutch soccer team plays against Germany, then I feel Dutch. But if Ajax plays again plays against the team out of Limburg, then I feel that I belong to Limburg. But if Venlo plays against Maastricht, then I feel South Limburg. And when MVV from Maastricht plays against Rode Jezee, which is in the east of South Limburg, and that's remind, it's the ripararian area. Then I feel very much ripararian, but only then. And so, I mean, by identity, cultural identity, it's fluent, and it's not a property of a person. It took me a while to discover that. But it's, it's, it tells us something about relationships between me and other persons. Often, as Masemianou showed as well. We often think that identity and knowledge about local knowledge is is location and space and time bound, but increasingly, the world shows us that it's not any more location or time bound and we are entering a new era in which questions about identity become more confused, but I cannot explain it in total now but I can only finish due to time restraints with my last attention I have and that's what I would like to call cultural empathy and empathy is something a psychiatrist and a psychologist needs to understand another person is patient. It becomes very tough. If that patient comes from another culture, because in that case we also have to bridge to different cultures. And that's quite tough we do that on the left side with what I call perspective production we have methods to reconstruct the cultural context of a patient and of the complaints he or she has. That very interesting techniques so you will have to master in order to be able to to reconstruct the culture as far as necessary for a psychiatrist to make a good diagnosis and treatment plan. However, that's only half of it. In the right corner you see that there are there is also something we call. I would call perspective suppression. It sounds negative, but we as medical doctors we also have our professional and personal cultural backgrounds and we have our authentic reflexes and if we do not get rid of them. We will never be able to understand another person so we'll have to take quite extreme relativistic stands in order to discover that our own professional or personal ideas are just ideas and that we need to. To suppress them every now and then to be able to come to a real understanding with your patient and. For now. That's some reflections from my path. Thank you very much for your attention. Okay. Okay, so first of all, many thanks for. Okay, we're still on this one. Nice. So, hi everyone there now I'm also on the screen. So thank you first of all for these interesting presentations they were already quite some questions in the chat so I will start with that I also wrote down some questions I have but we will see also for the sake of time if we managed to tackle them as well and if not, maybe you have some time afterwards. So first of all, there was a comment for for Max from CK. That was the name on Zoom. Probably. So she indicates that you provide a very interesting example of how people use mental informal institutional matrices, but can you elaborate how this connects with confirmation bias, particularly during an interview. Yes, sure. One thing I do have to say is that I was not there present of interview because nobody can have access to the interview. I mean, even if I would have written a letter to a prime minister of Belgium, I wouldn't have been able to access that. So, what I do know, however, what I did have access to, however, were the files of BK. It was informed about the fact that I was having access to these files. And these was the one that I presented was the main textual artifact, which resumed which which summarizes in a way the how the interviews went. So I had to base myself on, well, not on BK telling me about how it went with the interview, because they don't want to be interviewed about it. So I had to base myself on a textual artifact and all the other documents that I encountered. So I do not know what actually happened at that very moment in time in the interview between the office, the migration officer, and the applicants so BK. So, though, is that that interview took place in French. And as I tried to explain before there were two different varieties of French being involved there. I assume, rather heavily accented West Flemish variety of French, and I'm a rather heavily accented Conakry's variety of French. So that's something that I can say. Yes, in the meantime, I also got one and following up on that. When such language issues occurs. Would it be an option or what could be the role of a person in between right translator. Would that introduce some extra bias in there or that seems to be there seems to be a blessing on the one hand because of which you will think. The applicant would be able to express himself or herself in the language he or she feels most confident with. But once I've been doing a mapping of the linguistic repertoire of BK. One of the things that the interesting thing that came up was that it wasn't ever so confident in Malinka as they attributed him to be the mother tongue. He was confident in Pearl, which was the mother tongue from the mother side, the actual mother tongue if you look at it from, you know, language or father language of a mother. But the language that was mostly confident with was Sosa and Sosa belongs to the Malinka's language language family, and he's a language that is purely and solely used for transactional purposes. And me and you would use when I'm buying fish and vegetables from you from a market, and that also triggered in my head an idea of Hang on a Moment BK was not born and bred in Conakry. He was coming from somewhere else and then he moved to Conakry to get a job and so forth and maybe all of his family moved to Conakry. That was just a social linguistic supposition of mine. He was getting to know BK's roommate that was also from Conakry, explained all sorts of things to me in terms of their social linguistic background. In terms of a fact that the two families knew one another because of an encounter that they had on Skype or channels where the BK's roommate had been meeting BK's mother, who made sure that he was doing his preaching, Quranic preaching every day. Otherwise it would have been a bad boy and so forth and then there is an old chapter, linguistic anthropological chapter about the linguistic background of these two characters and how they influence my understanding of what has been going on in that interview. So going back to point one, even if you would have had an interpreter there, it would have been rather difficult to know that he was mostly proficient in SOSA. And then the interpretation might have happened in Malink, but Malink was the language of a father. So which interpretation would have we been having. So there is a lot of language barriers going on there. Thank you. And maybe one thing that came up in the chat of course is that there have been some criticisms on various model and one of the things that was kind of funny in the to see is that the figure that you showed made this opposition between traditional Western, which Michael Bender in the chat indicates that generally now today we talk more about cultural maintenance and cultural adoption so that there is a difference there. But what I was wondering is whether you could elaborate a bit on if we connect both presentations and your ideas that asylum seekers are in the waiting room of globalization. What is that doing with with asylum seekers from a psychiatric perspective. What is the impact of being in that waiting room. I know from certain studies that if you stay two years in that waiting room that psychopathology doubles. It means that people arrive about 20% have depressive disorder and about 20% have post traumatic stress disorder. If they wait two years in that room with uncertainty, then it's 40% depressive disorder and 40% post traumatic stress disorder we are not yet sure about the casual casual link, but we all know that it's very likely that it's due to the fact that they are waiting for permission to stay. What it does, in addition to that is it causes an extreme form of paranoia. However, it is a survival mechanism, it's not pathological paranoia, but it's kind of a healthy way to be very much aware of what are people doing to me. They said okay here, they are vigilant, and if an inexperienced psychiatrist see a patient like that, he will think that he is psychotic he has a delusion he's paranoid, but he's not. It's very difficult to make a good differentiation between someone who is paranoid in the sense that he has severe form of psychopathology or he or she is paranoid in the sense of a healthy way of surviving. Especially in asylum seekers that's very difficult and that paranoia increases because people are in that waiting room and they cannot feel secure. So in my clinic the first thing we do is try to make people feel a little bit secure and we have several techniques of doing that, but that's just two of the things that is happening with patients. And are these issues that are taking also into account by the authorities in the sense that I can imagine while people arrive they have post-traumatic stress disorder they might that might also lead to not recalling certain passages in their personal history. Once they get to psychiatrist is that something that is also submitted some reports to the authorities that they take into account during the asylum procedure or is that a separate track. It is a separate track but there are lines between those tracks as a medical doctor who I am not allowed to declare anything about my own patients. I can tell a third doctor what my diagnosis is or what my treatment is if my patient agrees that I give that information but besides that I'm not allowed to tell anything. So how severe someone's suicidal thoughts are. It's not allowed for me to say anything about that. If a certain psychotherapy is available in Congo, I'm not allowed to tell whether it is available or not that are a separate circuit of doctors is doing that. And so there is a clear division line between that but there are a lot of borderline fights between doctors and lawyers about that. Because a lot of lawyers try to persuade doctors to tell a lot of other things as well and a lot of doctors who don't know what their limitations are. They do that and the lawyers can use that in court. And however, the doctors are doing things that they are not allowed to do. That's one of the many fights in that situation. Besides that lawyers, they have only article 64, no, yeah, 64 from the Vreemdeling event. And that law is, is just, you know, if you break a leg and you cannot walk to the plane in a hip hole then the Dutch government says okay it's okay if you first let that leg heal for about six weeks and then we deport you. And that article is used by a lot of lawyers to try to get their clients permission to stay. And for a doctor, it's terrible because as long as someone is ill, he's allowed to stay. But as soon as he's better, he has to have to go. So that is for a doctor an impossible situation, but for a lawyer is the only thing they have. Okay, very interesting. I guess there's also some questions in the chat but I just wanted to ask one or no questions in the chat. Yeah, I don't have an overview but can I ask one more question. I was intrigued by your, by your ideas about migrants going through a third individuation. And I was wondering, do we see differences in these individuals 13 individuation processes depending on the type of migrants because you talk for example about the typical first individuation when people young children start to realize okay. I'm a person myself and but so because refugees and asylum seekers they go through quite different processes compared to let's say highly skilled migrants or international students. They all go through different through that third individuation process but aren't the outcomes or do we know anything, whether the outcomes are different, or whether there's more friction in these processes, according to the type of migrants that just scientific curiosity. You're right. There are a lot of different scenarios and possibilities and also among among economic migrants and but also there you see big difference between people who came from Turkey and from Morocco for instance if you look at the first generation Turkish women, they often, not often but there's a large group who recreates a kind of touch Turkish community, and they don't learn Dutch, they go to the Turkish supermarket and they have Turkish friends, and they, they, they rebuild a new kind of Turkish community in inside the city. And that's completely different from Moroccan women, not everyone of course because otherwise it would be stereotyping but they engage much more in Dutch society and become by cultural. And with a lot of advantages and the the individuation phase in that instance is is much bigger has more impact because they are much more confronted with two different kinds of cultures and while some Turkish women try to isolate themselves and to try to stick to a newly reconstructed traditional cultural issue but I'm not allowed I guess to use the word traditional. Okay, let's go over to you, you have a question as well. To combine what you're, you're, you're both your research is because if I would sort of explain what Max is doing, doing and I'm bit, bit superficial making it more superficial than it is but the point very much is that there is a sort of that Babylonic confusion about who is supposed, or what language are you using as the, the, the office, the officer let's say and the one who is arriving, and there's a lot of confusion in between what type of language should we use. And in your case, I think Mario, it's the same but even more difficult so when someone you mentioned somewhere from the Congo or something, who is who has difficulties in making a life or getting a life of behavior he's he has from traumatic stress. What, what language then is used or, or do you experience the same type of confusion in language and if someone has a problem. How do you cope with that as a doctor. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of things come into my mind right now, but let's start with that language for a psychiatrist is the most important instrument we have what a what a knife is for a surgeon is language for a psychiatrist or a psychotherapist so language is extremely important. I cannot do without professional translates translators but even because you never can use a 12 year old child and talk about the traumas of her mother with her as an interpreter that's impossible. And you never get an idea of how suicidal someone is if you make use of acquaintances, people like that so you need a professional translator. And if you have that, and I had once I learned a lot from West African patients because, you know, one of the first questions you asked is what what is your mother tongue. And very often the mother, the name of the mother tongue is also the name of the ethnic group to someone belongs but not always and in this case we have a big problem. And I noticed that my question, what is your mother tongue was translated by the interpreter into the question what is the language of your mother, which is something different as we saw in your example and so from that moment on I realized that I, I always I never asked what is your mother tongue but I always asked what is the first language that you learn to speak and talk in your, in your life and then you can avoid things like that but that language is so important for us and even if you use a good interpreter, you can teach him a lot of things more that you because they must translate in a different way for a psychiatrist and they translate for a surgeon. That's one thing but there is always things that get lost. If I ask, are you married in Dutch, it's true loyalty. In Spanish is that's cassara by your own opponent, are you below a roof, are you a house, it has another connotation and in my, the language, the Indian language I learned to kind of bill is, are you married to kind of bill, that's you could take Maya, but literally, the question kind of bill is, is your way accomplished, your way of life has that been accomplished, and that is another expression of are you married so there are three different types of, and they all mean the same, you translated the same way, but they mean different things and that's something that always get lost, because you cannot translate the context you can only translate words, I don't know. I'm lost in translation. Totally. What can I say, what I can say is also the fact that, well mind you this case took place about 10 years ago by now, and there are some other cases of that kind. And some people have been telling me why, why was this case not, not sorted out with the use of artificial intelligence and automated translation, you know, someone speaks in Google and the other one Google translator, for instance, and the other one listens back to be answering the language the way which, and then we go back again to point one what you were mentioning. The values and the attached to a given language, the political values attached to a given language, the economic prestige attached to a given language, but also the world view, even though you know almost jumping into a superior world hypothesis which I don't want to do. They are very relevant in this translation cases. Yeah. I think we need to round up here because it's five o'clock, the end of this session. But first of all, again, thanks for the speakers today also including Lena also for presenting the others program thanks again also for the organization and to all the people that are attending online. You will hear from us soon from Timiko about a next date and the next event that we will organize hopefully next time. No fifth COVID wave but that we can do that on campus. Enjoy your evening everyone.