 I want to preface this seminar with please leave your thin skins outside because we're going to thin you. We're going to thin some of you and that's our intent, okay? Not on purpose but to make a point. And so the things that you're going to see on this PowerPoint slide is to try to get you the chaplain to understand what the VAD requires. When we go through this particular PowerPoint slide I want you to know that when you are a chaplain in the VAD and you are officiating as a chaplain in the VAD, it's not that you have to deny your faith to be a chaplain in the VAD. If you are a minister, a pastor, a chaplain outside of this realm and you have a faith preference, you practice your faith. I practice my faith 24-7. I cannot deny who I believe in and what I believe in. I practice it. But what you as chaplains have to do at the chapter and department level is you have got another dynamic you need to add to your repertoire and that is the Constitution bylaws of the DAV and what they say that we must do. So when we begin this I want you to understand that we're purposely trying to get you to think outside the box because what I see as I travel across the nation to various departments is that we've made memorial services like worship services and that's not what we need to be doing. I know in a couple of departments we have Muslim veterans and they don't come to the service because we treat it like a worship service based on whatever faith you believe in. And again, remember what I said here, you don't deny your faith, you practice your faith but we must add another dynamic to this. And you have to stay within the confines of the Constitution bylaws and here's the reason why. You are the members, I am the member and we all voted at one time that you become non-secretarian. Now I have the old documents of the DAV where there was a heavy if it's all gone. I've got a chaplain handbook from the DAV, I've got prayers from the DAV and I never hand them out even though I have copies of all this. And the reason being is because of that statement in the Constitution bylaws from non-secretarian. Now there is nothing that says when you're outside of your official capacity that you can't discuss your faiths off the hallway. Go for it. What I want you to kind of get in the mode for is be receptive to other faiths. You can disagree and I have an article that's coming out that's already out on the website and you will probably get this magazine sometime this month. It's called Troop Tolerance and there's a form out there in our society where we're not very tolerant. If you've been watching the news for any length of time we've got both sides, right and left and in the middle. We just don't want to be tolerant of anything. The chaplains, we're the bridge makers, we're the peacekeepers and you do that from your faith perspective. Now saying that there's another concern I have and the concern is the Constitution bylaws says that you can be elected or appointed. In other words the members can elect you or appoint you. You don't have to have a spiritual moment in your body. Now here's the danger of that. Not saying you need to be spiritual but here's the danger. You haven't had proper training and I'm not going to certify you only because I give two hours of your time once a year. There is no way and I will tell you what I think I said last year or the year before last that you can go on the internet and find legit programs where you can do a certification process and that's your calling, go. I could have been a pastor of a church ten times over. I chose not to be. Why? Because the chaplain gives me the freedom to travel wherever I need to go and I prefer to do that than stay grounded in a community at a building to edify, build up their missions. Everyone here has a different mission. So when we begin the PowerPoint slide, I'm going to throw some stuff at you. No? My guest speaker's going to throw some stuff at you. That's why I throw the plane on you. I can sit down and enjoy. After this, I think the presentation is about 10-50 minutes, right? When it's done, we're going to have a question and answer session. And please, don't be afraid. You can ask the question if you can come up to the mic. I'm going to be where I'm at right now. Don't be afraid to ask questions so that you can get the answers before you leave, okay? We may not take full two hours today and that's okay. What's important is you take away the knowledge and the wisdom we're trying to impart to you to do better chaplains, okay? So without further ado, let me introduce our guest. Once in a while, I travel across the United States and I get privy to attend a memorial service at a department. And what I like, what I really see, and department chaplain can say something better than I can present it, then I ask him, hey, can you come up here and present this material? And I'll let you direct, instruct, teach, impart. And then I'll be here to, you know, bounce off of anything, anything that's going on here. So that you know, but before I do that, how many of you know who I am besides the national chaplain? Do you know my background? Do you know my background? All right, I have over 30-plus years of ministry. I'm an ordained minister and I'm certified chaplain of the International Federation of Prison Chaplains. So I do chaplain work outside of this realm. I do prison ministry. I do street ministry. I do food bank ministry. Those are things that my faith teaches. I have found that the world out there doesn't like to be preached to. So I preach, by the way, I live. Now, from my faith perspective, if I extend love, that's going to be reciprocated. And I found that working very well and saying, well, I don't believe what you believe. I'm going to build a law and, you know, get out of here. We are, if we're a non-secretary organization, we are all encompassing the wall face. And I've found, if you allow someone to express their faith, they allow you to express yours by kindness, love, caring. And that's what my chaplains need to be, is loving, kind, caring. You have to care. If you've been elected or appointed and you're just in there for the position, please do me a favor, resign, because you're not the right person for that position. Okay? So the bottom line is, I've got a lot of stuff going on. I've got a degree from Liberty, a degree from the seminary. And, you know, that's all good and fine, but you don't have to have such things to be a good chaplain. All I ask you to do is care. And if you can care about your members, and you can go out and visit those veterans that won't come to your chaplain, then go and visit. Go to the hospital. If you don't understand what the description of the chaplain is, I don't know if we put my information in this. Okay. I'll put out my phone. I'll put out my phone and you guys can write it in. Text me, which is the best way to do it. The millennials have trained me well. I'm a trained monkey now. When I call my daughter 36 years of age, or my son 31 years of age, and I call, they never answer the phone. I'll leave a message. But by golly, if I text them, they respond in 30 seconds. So, if you text me, hey, we good. Now I've got a living proof in front of my face that, hey, someone's got to hold me, and I'll get back to you within a reasonable amount of time. What does that mean? We're the least within 24 hours. I'm not going to leave you out there hanging. Okay, unless it's an emergency. Now, let me introduce our guest. Charles Fuller is the Department of Virginia Chaplain. And he's put together a very powerful and very informative PowerPoint slide that I want you guys to enjoy. And after that, we'll have a discussion about it. It's going to be open forum. We're chaplains, guys. So, there's nothing formal here. If you want to go back there and get a drink of water, take it back to your seat. Do so. If you need to go out and go to little, we're disabled American veterans. And I don't know about you. My bladder isn't as strong as you should be. So, if you guys need to go and take medication, whatever you're doing, then come back and do so. We're informal here. This is an informal seminar unlike the structured seminars or other things. I want you to go ahead, guys. What I want you to be is alert and attentive to the information. That's what I want you to be. Okay. And if you feel that you're going to be offended or you are offended by some of the things that we're about to throw at you, I apologize in advance. But I don't apologize for the material and trying to get you to think outside the box. Because it's not my intent to offend you to the point where you've got issues with me. My intent is just to wake you up, clear your mind of the old traditional worship services that you're doing, and let's focus on the moral services and what the Constitution of all all says. So, now let me go back to my guest. I'll let you assume her later. All right. All right. So, Chaplain Charles Fuller has been seminary trained at Liberty University as well. And I was just very impressed with the PowerPoint slides. So, I'm going to let you do most of the speaking. And I'm going to sit up here and enjoy the PowerPoint slideshow. All I ask is that while we're going through this one, you get offended, please leave. Here's what we need to do. Leave all your baseball bats outside the door. Okay. All right. Because I don't want to be hit in the back of the head when you get to that point. But the bottom line is that he is, this is a very good informative seminar and I want you guys to take away what you need to take away to be an excellent, excellent Chaplain. And every one of us can be. You don't have to be officially trained. You just have to care. So, without further ado, Chaplain Charles Fuller, I turn this show over to you and I'm going to take a seat over here. And when they start throwing eggs, I'm just going to get up under to go sit here. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Appreciate it. All right. As he mentioned, I'm Chaplain Charles Fuller from Virginia. A little bit about me. I was an atheist when I used to wear the uniform. I had been dragged to church as a child, but I was pretty sure that he didn't exist. And I never came to know anything about anything. I knew enough about a holy book to be dangerous and that was my idea. And you don't have to be a seminarian to be a chaplain. You just have to love all the people and be willing to accept them where they are and help them to come to something better. I say that to say this. Sometimes... Well, there's no really good way to say it. Sometimes, our brothers and sisters of certain faith, we have a way of doing things sometimes that is off-putting. And I do too. I'm obnoxious sometimes. I try not to be. But we've all worn the uniform in here or we've been family members of people who've worn the uniform, so salty language won't bother you too much, I hope. So without anything more, let's just get right to it. All right. Just in case you didn't know, you're in the chaplain seminar. All right. And we're in Reno at the National Convention. Very important to me and to you, I'm sure, is the mission statement. Our mission statement, we're dedicated to a single-purpose, empowering veterans to lead high-quality lives with respect and dignity. Now, I don't mind telling you, he's already told you I'm seminary-trained at Liberty and so you can guess that I am what some people would call a Christian. Some people don't call themselves Christian because it wasn't, in fact, originally a term of derision used in Antioch. But whatever your faith is, I'm okay with it. You can be faithless. Of course, if you're in here, that would be a little weird. But I'm not the kind of guy that, you know, you see in the Walmart, hey, brother, how you doing? Oh, I'm blessed by the best and praying for the rest. How are you? Praise Jesus. No. But I'm not quiet about my faith either. I expect you to be. But there is a point here, respect and dignity. And that happens in the meetings, in your conferences, in your conventions. You can treat people disrespectfully without even knowing that you're doing it. Let me illustrate. My beautiful bride is holding my phone, it has a compass on it. Technology is something else. But if I were to say, hey, okay, I want everyone to get up and pray, and I've already checked, Mecca is that way. And then I'm going to read to you a passage from the Quran. How would you feel about that? Would that be okay? Everybody has to, everybody has to get on the floor and be prostrate. And let's face it, some of us getting prostrate is not easy. No, I didn't say prostate. That's enough. But the idea is that I would no sooner stand up and pray in the name of Allah than I would in the name of Jesus Christ while I'm behind the sacred desk, if you will, at a conference or convention. That's why Mike doesn't, you know, eternal God our Heavenly Father. In fact, usually he takes the eternal Creator. I like that. I like that. Although I typically tell my chaplains in Virginia that I use what's in the ritual, but I take out these thousand wither-soeverists and so on. But anyway, so with that, just keep that in mind that just as offensive as it would be for me to stand up here and quote the Quran that says, say not that trinity, it does not mean that Allah should have a son, the Muslim is equally as offended when we want to quote John 3.16. So let's talk about the F-bomb. Everybody know what the F-bomb is? And by the way, my chaplains in Virginia have seen this already. Don't feel bad if you want to fall asleep. Just don't nod. That's just right. I'm just let down by some of the best. I planted a little church in Portsmouth, Virginia and we grew pretty well. We were hosted by another church and they got upset because, well, as one dear old woman, I don't know how to say lady, said, I think you've reached enough black people. I wanted to tell her, I think you might be going to hell. I say that to say this. I am not shy at all about my faith. When we're in the hallway, you want prayer, I will pray for you and yes, I do pray in the name of Jesus. I will pray for a fresh infilling of the Holy Spirit if that's what you need. But when I'm up here, I have to remember that not everybody under the sound of my voice even believes in God much less believes in the same God I do. The F bomb. No, it's not what you thought it was. It's faith. What two things in our society, and I like audience participation, shout out, it's okay. What two things in polite society do we not discuss? Political politics. Baseball teams? Or are you a Red Sox man? Oh, okay. Well, well, yeah, usually some restraint is a good idea. But with that, we have to recognize that it can be very, it can be very divisive when we start talking about faith. Just as it is when we start talking about politics. Last night I overheard someone running down our current president like he was a dog. Now, I don't care whether you voted for the man or not. I don't, because we're nonpartisan. But, okay, do your thing. I heard the same thing when President Obama was president. Oh, you need to have peaches behind and on and on and on, and people ran him down. And it happens all the time. Before the election, that we had to say in our chapter, look, no discussion of politics. Period. Leave it outside the door. You want to talk about politics? Do it on your time outside the door. Because we got people with PTSD in here. You want somebody to snap? No, I'm just kidding. So, what is the official belief system of the DAV? And where is that written? I'm a rules guy. I like rules. They say, oh, well, this is what we do. Blah, blah, blah. Where's that written? I want to know. Where is it written? I told you I was a skeptic. Do we really have to encourage the faithless? I mean, come on, really? All right, so, this guy's mother died and he believes that she's gone and you weren't through the next weekend. Is there anything we can give them? And how do you deal with people that don't believe as you do? Sometimes that's a sticky widget. Well, let me tell you about the official faith of the DAV. We're nonsectarian. Now, what does sectarian mean? Very simple. From Miriam Webster's dictionary of relating to or characteristic of a sect or sectarian limited in scope and character or scope or parochial. That doesn't really clear the border up too much. But I like the definition of nonsectarian. It kind of gives us what we're supposed to be. Not having a sectarian character. This one. Not affiliated with or restricted to a particular religious group. And why? Because our bylaws demand it. Now, last year, I learned something at the chaplain's seminar. This is, by the way, the cover of our current Constitution and bylaws. Does anybody know what the next Constitution and bylaws of the color is going to be? Most likely. Green. Probably green and gray. Because the Eagles won the Super Bowl. Yeah! So anyway. And no, I'm not an Eagles fan. Get over yourselves. You can leave now. We're nonsectarian because our bylaws demand it. And where is that? It's in Article 2. Section 2.1, nonpartisanship. The organization shall be nonpolitical and nonsectarian. And the name of this organization, or name of any subdivision thereof, shall not be used in representing the desires or wishes of its membership in any political, sectarian, or labor dispute. So in other words, I can't tell you as a DAV member I don't like having things on Sunday because that's a day of rest or day of worship or what have you. If you're Jewish, I don't want to I don't think we should as a DAV member I object to having anything on Saturday. That's a Sabbath. That sounds good, but it's wrong. You can say as a Christian or as a Jew, I don't think that this is right. And you can say that, that's fine. But not when you're in front of people. When you are in front of people, you are chaplain to everyone. You are chaplain to the non-believer. You're chaplain to those who don't know. I like agnostic, the word agnostic really means I don't know without knowledge. So, okay. You are in fact the chaplain to the clueless as well as to the deluded. No. And do you really have to encourage the faithless? Here's the thing. I don't believe that anybody I'm just going to sit through these. I don't believe that anybody is truly faithless. Let's face it, you came in here, you sat down, you had faith that the chair that you're sitting in was going to hold you up. You had faith that the chandelier that's over your head is not going to come down on you. Well, I'm hoping so. We need to talk. How do you deal with people who don't believe as you do? Let me give you a couple of bad examples. Not like this. Have you ever met somebody that is just obnoxious trying to tear down your faith and you just wish that you had faith in me, maybe I need to go get a pill or something, but you wish you could just force choke them from across the room. I don't want to kill you. I just want to shut your mouth for a minute. No, no, we can't do that. And don't do this either. Oh, you don't believe? Inconceivable. Inconceivable. Inconceivable. Inconceivable. I had to throw that in to the other person's front. But you don't want to say that. Oh, you don't believe this? That's inconceivable. Oh, you believe that? You must be nice. So then how do you deal with people who don't believe as you do? As comrades, it's simple. I was discussing with my friend from Minnesota that we sometimes picked on Uncle Sam's misguided children and the squids and the ground counters and the wing wipers and the puddle pirates. You know, we do that. What are you a combat cook? Well, actually, here's the thing. I love the Navy. I mean, I love the Army. They do their thing. I love the Marines. I love the Coast Guard. I love the Air Force especially because my wife was in the Air Force and I can't say too much bad about it. The catch that keeps everyone else afloat is the Navy. We're a diverse... That remark, he's delusional. That's because we used to give him a ride. That's all. My... No, we're not going to use that one. DAV is a diverse group of men and women who share similar experiences. One of the things that I think is great about DAV is that it is a safe place to be yourself. I mean, let's face it, have you ever looked at somebody that's a civilian and tried to explain to them what it was like to be on General Quarters or what it was like to be at this battle station or in this combat or what have you and they look at you with the deer in the headlights look like, okay, gosh, that must be terrible but I have no frame of reference but whether you were in the Corps or you were in the Air Force or it's been the Navy We all... Well, anyway, let's not go there because I know the joke about the men's department so... But the thing is we all have some kind of experiences we know what it is sometimes to have to salute a uniform because we don't respect the person wearing it or maybe they're not worthy of our respect we know what it is to have long hours and tense situations and we can relate to one another on that. DAV is and should be a safe place to be yourself. So if somebody comes in and they want to tell me that they believe that the Universe is going to bless them with whatever they want as long as they think positive thoughts I can't look at them and tell them that I think they're group of cuckoo puffs that's not the way to deal with them. Instead, I try to listen and understand what they're saying because eventually it won't come there will be a time when they will want to know what I believe. I'm going to tell you what. I'd love to share what I think of as the good news. I think it's back to going oh yes he does. Yes he does. We're not a church we're not a congregation a mosque, a temple, or even a coven. It used to be that in the department of Virginia our memorial services were on Sundays just that's how it was memorial service here was on Sunday. Frankly, I object to that practice for the main reason that usually on Sunday being the last day of a conference people not here, but our conferences, people are thinking of one thing, that's getting home. They're not thinking about coming to a memorial service unless they're looking for a worship service. Me, I say get in your car and go find a good church on Sunday if that's your thing, you know but we don't need to we don't need to make it more we don't need to we don't need to church it up so here's a little video you've seen already What does DAV mean to you? DAV for me means to me you know what they're awesome organizations DAV means a camaraderie and one word DAV means service the DAV means inspiration to me DAV to me, the insurance of all future veterans' lives to me, DAV means commitment commitment to other veterans and helping them through the transition out of service to me DAV means to me, integrity to me, DAV means brotherhood I found that brotherhood after I left service DAV means it means a sense of normalcy again I joined the DAV to be able to have a voice for the veterans so we might just look to the white side DAV to DAV to I. Now we're in there today here DAV means we need to worship a certain way we need to wear a certain attire we go to a certain ceremony nothing like that we're family and that's really the truth of it we need to we need to treat everyone with respect regardless of what they believe and I know that you've heard we've been hammering it but you would just be amazed are there department chaplains in here? thank you and I know that there are some department chaplains one of mine is in the back he's trying to remain awake but the thing with this is as you go if you go and visit chapters in your department you will see they do all kinds of different things so I also like music now when I did it on my computer I don't want you like that but that's okay but no the point of that is this in fact that is a quote from Malcomax but it's cut a little bit in talking he said we want to have just an off the cuff chat between you and me we want to talk right down to earth in a language that everyone here can easily understand I shared with you that when I became well actually the way things used to be in Virginia was we would have really a worship service no kidding we had song books the first time as I was sharing with you Mike the first time that I led a memorial service in Virginia right after Dave Riley had been elected as national commander and he was there and I was nervous and this wonderful old her this wonderful lady comes up and says chaplain where are the song books I said they're in the box over there I said no ma'am she said oh the other chaplains they're gonna pass them out I said no ma'am she said well they're not gonna pass them out you don't want me to pass them out how are we gonna sing well up and by this time my patients have run a little short but I just try to keep it nice and calm ma'am please hear me this is not a worship service this is a memorial service we are here to remember those who have gone on to their eternal award whether they are comrades in arms or whether they are family members or whether they are comrades in arms we're here to remember them it's been like a church service I said yes it has and that's why a lot of people don't attend anymore frankly a lot of folks don't want to hear what you believe they don't care what you believe until they can believe that you care and at that point when you've established that relationship with people they'll hear you you may have some people who you may wind up proselytizing I've had some that I've had some people ask me if I would baptize them if I would marry them I did one beautiful couple another couple let's move on chapter ceremonies most of us probably have an altar or what we call an altar probably have a Bible that we open up on the altar and that's fine and we always open our thing is our commander usually asks our senior vice commander what is the normal procedure in opening a meeting of Cratac chapter 41 and the answer is it is fitting and proper that we first have prayer and then render honor to our flag for something alone at line and we have people that they stand up and they say and somebody inevitably wants to say uncover I understand that thinking because that's what we did when we were in the military you uncovered but what if you're talking to somebody who's faith is such that they remain covered to pray or they cover up to pray are they out of order I've noticed Mike never asks anybody to uncover you know please stand with me and let's pray that's fine and I mean let's face it we've got plenty of folks that don't stand but I don't believe that their prayer is no less heard do you so the point here is does the manner in which we pray should we have a prescribed prayer I like the way Mike prays as I said I usually pray what is it eternal God please be merciful to us and bless us cause you face to shine upon us and make your way known upon the earth and you're saving strength among all people and so on and it's right out of the ritual and that's fine pray as you feel led but remember that you as a chaplain are leading the prayer and if you lead the prayer in such a way turn somebody off turn somebody away you've done a disservice you've treated them not with respect and dignity but with disrespect you can send your complaints to um she's fuller junior that's me DAB Prattic chapter 41 we're 41 getting it done I'm part of the DAB of Virginia our address is there the office phone number is there I've got my email it's very simple Charles at Charles Fuller dot com and I have two twitter accounts salty chaplain because yes sometimes I am salty and bold for Christ because I am so with that I'm going to give this back over to Mike sorry it took longer than 10 minutes but I had to elaborate a few times my ladies and gentlemen now the hard stuff begins alright a lot of things were said and they're right on point and I can't probably convey this enough the direction we have to go to but just because he talked about this doesn't mean you deny your faith when you do this he made a very good point and that is you are a chaplain of all if you are elected or appointed you know from my faith there are people who say if you don't pray in the name of Jesus Christ the prayer don't count let me put it in some terms that hopefully you'll understand and again I apologize if you're offended but guys I got to get you to see the DAB way why you are a DAB chaplain and then once you take the DAB robe off go back to your faith and that is you are in charge of every faith that is in your organization let me give you an example I went to a department convention and they basically conducted a church service and I noticed some individuals some important individuals were not present so I went to talk to them and I found out that they were Muslim veterans who were Muslims in this particular department and I sat down and I said so tell me what's going on and he said did you go to the memorial service I said yes I said yes it was he goes well I'm not a Christian and I said I see it and I immediately understood so in this particular department the chaplain was not mature or wise enough maybe they were mature if you are in the seminary my major was world cults and religions did you know that Hindus have 400 and some odd million different gods did you know that Buddha was a Hindu and he disagreed with some of the teachings of Hinduism and then went off on his own direction okay and then and that's what people want to believe you have to encompass it it just means that you have to do your services your memorial services to be all encompassing now I'm going to stop talking and I know you all have some questions but if I had Superman later but I want to open up the floor for discussion and I want you to air out issues that you may have with what you've just heard but I will not deviate from the DAB's mission as their chaplain as long as I'm a national chaplain I can't do otherwise and before we open up for discussion remember this in the official capacity of the DAB think of it as just a formality because my religion teaches me that if I want to pray go to my calls and it teaches me that the religious leaders of a particular individual I believe in would publicly pray in the open so they get the praises of men that's what it teaches me and Jesus said don't do that he says go to calls and pray if you want to pray so we're not out here to show them there's another thing I have a problem with in our departments and chapters where the chaplain's called up to pray he feels like he's been neglected he's been neglected the whole time he feels like now is it's time to pontificate so that's where I want to give a slingshot with some BB's and start hitting them keep it short sweet that's why I keep my cursor short sweet because it isn't about me it's about conducting business to help veterans oh by the way if your faith is similar to mine or any faith to include Muslim by the way they do believe help one another so let's get to the business of helping one another if you really want to witness what you believe we do the DAB mission because it's parallel with a couple of faiths get out there and start helping people that's what we do, we do it very well and I see it parallel there but when I'm wearing the gown when I'm in the hat of the DAB wearing the stove then I must adhere to the non-secretarian portion because we actually practice that outside of the DAB to come and listen to what we believe because we're caring now now I'm going to shut up I'm going to turn this floor over to you guys yes sir Charles, I want you to come up here sir yeah I'm going to make sure Crosshair's on his chest too I thought it was you're not done we'll start out on the good side I'm listening to Don't Know I'm your commander of the yard start off by putting your ring out there I'm not a Christian so I very much appreciate the DAB's stance of following our constitution he has not set a religion for their organization Charles made one point that's really good the way that I've led my life and it definitely needs underscoring and this point was asking people about what they believe and I found for me that's the best is I do fellow kind of more of a diagnostic group around like the Jewish community a lot of the everybody's part of something bigger and we all affect each other but feel it being the other way I grew up in a bad district so I know where you come from and so recently I've been exploring that what I found most effective for me is exactly what you're saying is that if I go in and ask some other people their beliefs I've learned and grown from time with people at the same time yeah we'll say thank you sir sir at the beginning you said I'm going to give you my number because my information's not here that's why I have a path that's right I'm a OCD perfect alright for those of you who want my personal number you can touch me and contact me if you want I can put it up there alright give me some time you just want your cellular number up there alright I used to have a flare for all those transitions give me a second and I'll put it up there who else has another question or doesn't understand if you're on a hospital visit and usually I'm in a VA hospital but we all have a nursing home nearby where a lot of veterans are and someone says will you pray with them do you pray with them or should you say to them my prayers are going to be Christian prayers or I mean how do they go back I'm glad you asked that question that's a very good question and I have to deal with it quite often in my line of work there's in hospitals and nursing homes and hospice and the things that I also inside the field when someone asks you to pray for them they're probably already aware of what you believe from your faith perspective they've opened up the door for you to discuss what you pray they've opened up that door but don't do it without their permission Michael I just realized my wife is using my phone and your number is in it that could be 555 FL 706 587 and 6440 6440 my job as your national checklist is to walk you through the tough things that you don't have to be there he's going to bring it up on the weaver screen he's going to put it in the presentation format 706 587 6440 we'll have it up here in just a minute all right so you had your hand up Georgia what's that sir there must be a newer ritual book you are a corrector there is no newer ritual book it's the same ritual book but I will tell you what Ed Harton told me when I had these situations maybe publishes and still puts out there is a guide. That's all it is. It's just a guide. I would use the ritual book if I was a brand new elector or appointed chaplain and I didn't know what to pray without a prayer, I'd use the prayers in there. And you heard Charles talk about how he kind of just those prayers. Well when you've been doing this long enough for ministry long enough, you can adjust and have no issues. But I would use the ritual book for someone who just absolutely doesn't know what to pray. Okay? And you can modify those prayers but it's just a guide book. You can go out on the internet and find all kinds of prayers out there, prayer before business meetings, prayer after business meetings. And you can use those prayers as long as they're non-secretary. Okay? Well and I'll tell you that DAB had one at one time and I've got copies of those but I can't put them out there because they are heavily saturated from one faith perspective. And that's not fair to the other individuals and veterans who serve in our different beliefs. Whether I believe with them or not, it doesn't matter. I'm the chaplain of all. But Michael, are you saying that you don't have to follow the ritual? I know we have to set our buildings up. I'm glad you asked that Charles. In your ritual book, how does it tell you to set up your meeting? Anybody remember? In a square. Does anybody set up their meetings at the chapter of the square? Where you've got the commander on one end and the senior vice on the other? Just like the ritual book floats out. So then you're not following the ritual book then are you? Well that's interesting. So I know of no one that sets up their meeting as it was with the ritual book so it's just a guide. If you know nothing about the DAV then set your chapter meetings up in a square as the ritual book plays out until most of us have a head table with all the officers in it. Right? That's how we most do it. So we can't complain about well if you don't use the prayer as the ritual book then you're not doing it right. Well then set your meetings up in a square. It's like what am I looking for? Like you can't pick and choose what you want to use out of the constitution and bylaws when it benefits you. Wait a minute you're talking about people of faith. That's it? That's it? We do. We do have to pick and choose sometimes. That's exactly what we do in this chapel. We can be prejudice based on our prejudices. There was a round here somewhere. Yes sir. I'll get you off the seat. I've been in the chapel for two months. Yes sir. I have a few things that I need someone to fill in and ask me. And I could not say nothing. I said yes sir. That's avoid someone who's to go. Yes. That's my logic. All right. I heard my question. Can you hand me a plastic insert with a sheet that said opening bird, closing bird? He can't do that. I'm sorry? He can't do that. He has to do that. Okay. I'm complied. Okay. I may have violated the code and here's where I need your help on. Okay. I try to keep it down, Secretary, but one of the things I reminded the membership of us was, hey folks, look remember, we are a brother student. That's correct. There's no need to debate that. That's right. If someone needs help, spiritual, psychological, health-wise, that's what the membership does for fellow veterans. Is that the NRI one? No, it's not. It's exactly in line with what our constitution follows and how we should be treating one another in camaraderie. And it is all a question of, if I hear you correctly and then it wouldn't be kosher to cite scripture from my point of view. Did you just use a Jewish word? Yes. We're going to be picking a choose our own religious. You can't use words like kosher. First and long. But you're supposed to be open-minded. That's correct. And so you have to get my point. So what's the answer to that question? No, never mind. Did you want to ask a question? No, I was going to say please don't possibly. But anyway. Right. The answer to that question would be one more time because I was just going to cite scripture. Right. I would say if we're non-secretarian, stay from a religious reference. That's what I would do. Now, this is what chaplains do in the department and in the chapter. And that is, you are the bridge to inform the commander. Look, this is who we are. And guys, when you go back to your chapters, units, departments, you are going to have a fight on your hands because there are folk. I live in the Bible, though. Here's another important thing that you need to be aware of. Know your members. Know your members. If it's a Christian environment, feel free to do what you want to do. If it's a Muslim environment, feel free to do what you need to do. If it's a mixture, then be non-secretarian. I don't have a problem offending people as long as, and I don't say that in tongue and cheek, because I don't purposely offend anybody. But if you're wrong, I'm going to offend you. I'm going to correct you in other words. Because you represent, there's one thing from my faith perspective. You represent God, and then you're out there, and you're treating people like mess. I've got a problem with you. Now, if we say we're DAB chaplains, and we're now prejudiced against various faiths or sexual lifestyles. Let's talk about the LGBT team. They're in our group. Did they serve honorably? That's a requirement. You are the chaplain of them, too. And you will love them unconditionally as well. We don't want to get religious on them. It doesn't matter if you disagree with them. That's not your place. Your place is to be all-encompassing. What did I say at the beginning of the seminar? I just need you to care. I need you to be seminary trained. I just need you to care. All right. Most of the time, I'm the only Jewish personnel in every place we go. I like, especially in our state, the chaplain gets up there and he looks at me and says, Shalom, for the sake of the thing else. When we did that, he came over to me and said, Are you Jewish? I said, born and raised. Yeah. In my chapter in Colorado, our, we do have a chaplain there who's praying, and then he came over to me afterwards and said, I'm really sorry because I said, In Jesus Christ, you know, he said, I'm so sorry. You know what? It's not offending me because you're not praying just to me. You're praying for everybody. And you accepted that and then you guys worked out a system. And that's what camaraderie and togetherness is all about, working out a system. But he's got to be careful what he prays. Now, Charles, even though I'm answering these questions, if you've got a follow up or you want to add some more, follow me. Please do, sister. All right. I have a question for Charles. Okay. All right. Okay. Now, do you have a national non-secretary? Secretary. Yeah, that's all right. I don't know if it's the secretary. Kind of a bear at the pervost of the best ones to say, see this is a timesy shoving, a little booklet for the new chapters and modify to all non-secretarians. Yeah. Non-secretary. Fair book. Could that be right? Could that one be made up? Is it the NSO's? I have a question. I can answer that question because I did it and submitted it to Ed Harman. And he said, no, because we're non-secretary and I can't specifically make a prayer book because the prayers of a Muslim is not the same as a Christian. And sometimes the Shema from a Jewish perspective is not the same kind of prayer from a Muslim perspective. So I was shot down for that reason because the non-secretary calls in our thing. So yeah, I did create one. It was about 15 pages. And I even created a chaplain handbook the update to the one we had and that was all shot down. So it wasn't due to lack of time. I try to make it non-secretary as possible. I mean, I really truly did, but what was pointed out to me which is why we're having these seminars about this is because what Ed Harman wanted to make sure that I understood this is a national chaplain was that. We can't just pray from a particular faith perspective. It was mere a chaplain. So therefore the publications that I submitted were not moving forward, that sort of thing. So if I could take that. Well, sir, if you'll give us a moment, let me finish. You're next. My suggestion to any new chaplain is get to know other chaplains. There's nothing saying that you can't share ideas and prayers and such. At every conference or convention I'm asked to give a blessing for the food before we pray, before we eat. And so what I typically do, because I was, well I am an Eagle Scout but I was in Boy Scouts, I pray the film on Grace, which is for food, for raiment, for life, for opportunity, for friendship and fellowship we thank the awarding of food. That's it. And it's neutral. It gives, it covers pretty much everybody. Even those who may not believe as I do aren't going to be terribly offended by it. But then again, I've got a thick enough skin so if they're offended they can come talk to me. It's alright. It's the film on Grace. I can get it to you later. Let me, let me, one question at a time. Question at the beginning of our meetings we place the Bible. I know. Okay. So we place the Koran there and then all of the tradition. Then if we're going to be, I'd say turn there. How many of you, well you bring up a very good point. How many of you attended my memorial services? Did I have a bottle down there? Did I have a Koran? That's right. But there wasn't one down there. So for non-secretary, why are we displaying a particular face document in our memorial services? My point. Or if you're going to display, then you display every face document. You're fair to everyone. You're the chaplain for everyone. And again, not displaying the Bible doesn't mean you're anti-American or anti-God. It means you're being considerate of your comrades who do not believe the way you do. And yes, you are absolutely correct. And I've been at many departments in chapter memorial services and will the chaplain come forward and open the Bible and give us a prayer? And again, it all comes down to this. You have to know who your members are. What's their faith belief? Now you don't have to go out there and what do you believe? What do you believe? What do you believe? That's not necessary. What's necessary is, beyond encompassing by these neutral prayers, and just think of it as a formality so you don't get your head wrapped up in oh my God, I'm going to hell because I'm not praying in a certain light. We don't? No, you're not. Okay, yes. I'm sorry. Before we go, sir, I have an interesting question. You did ask my question. We never went on a point about uncovering. Please. Every month we have training. Okay? The board sat there. I'm from the Great State of Alabama. Oh, okay. Okay. And so, last month, our training was about wearing of the head. Okay? Right. Okay? And then in that presentation, our trainer was teaching us when we pray remove the head. I just saw your demonstration right here about not removing the head here for some religion. Right. So that's this kind of contradictory to what the training was. Right. Which is what I just heard. Right. Which is why we're having a seminar so you can go back and teach what's right and what's right. And here's the deal. No, no, no. You're going to have some folks. I went to one meeting in the northern part of Virginia and after the meeting, this man at the good of the order, he stood up and said, this is my cover. There are many like it. Those of you who are Marines know this. And so his point was that everyone should be covered. Well, no, not really. Not necessary. I mean, it's nice. I was happy when I got my white hat. I'll be honest. You know, okay, great. I got a good guy. We're white hats, right? But the thing with that is it's not about the hat you wear. It's not about the, it's not about the formality. I mean, I like the idea that you take your cover off and you lay it across your left shoulder and then do it so doing, your hand is over your heart. And if that floats your boat, you do that. But don't insist that everyone does that. Well, let me re-emphasize that point. Let the members make their own personal decision if they want to do it their head here. Because if you were at the memorial service, I never said head here. It was up to the member whether or not they were there. Okay. Yes, sir. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Ma'am, you were next. I apologize. I find the best things in one life to do is to listen and observe. If you just stay back and do it, I'm not worthy to find out so much what she said. I've been able to say what she's been doing and how they pray because I learned from them. And they appreciate it so very much. And do enjoy people's chakras for those who've been here. I have been very impressed by it. Thank you. And thank you for sharing that information and you're absolutely right on point. Don't we sometimes tend to do a lot more talking than we do listening? Let me tell you about proper presentation. Some of you may have heard this before. I was a young friend who married an individual. I was a drill sergeant in the United States Army Infantry. And my wife was a Fox television promotion manager. So Dover wants to communicate with his wife. So we're driving down the interstate and I'm just 15 minutes. I'm giving her the what for and talking about it. And everything I'm talking about is army acronyms. When I get done pontificating, Dover is thumbing his chest and I'm communicating with my wife. Now my wife turns the tables and she's a promotion manager at Fox Television Station and she starts talking to me in television in the middle. And after she gets done I look over and I say what did you just say? And she's driving. We're down this and she takes this finger. I know it very well. 20 years I know this finger and she points at it as exactly Dover and she puts her hands on the steering wheel and we're still there. I realized from that moment that I was not probably communicating. I was not listening. And as chaplains you're going to find that you don't have to give answers to every problem. They just want someone to talk to you. And all you have to do is listen. You don't have to be a subject matter expert in everything. What you need to know is who is the subject matter expert, what the resources of the DAB is and I don't have a problem stepping outside the DAB round to go to local ministries to get help to a veteran. Because there are chapters out there that don't have the finances to help a veteran. But there are ministries on the street you can go to and it's okay to use them. As a matter of fact my suggestion is get yourself a little book. Go back to your community write down all the ministries that you have. That way if your chapter is not financially strong to assist you can go out and know who to contact and you have to build those relationships. Sir, you were next. First of all if I don't be a good listener I have a period of both years so I could be a good listener. But my son is a Lutheran pastor from the East Coast which is a predominantly Catholic so he's kind of a non-Zillian prayer. But when I was elected I've been in the chapter of the chapter for a couple of times I was just recently elected to the state. And so I called him up after I paid for seven years in the school week and I said hey I want you to write me some prayers. And he said I'm going to write him some prayers for you. He said you can prayers from the heart. That's the best way to do it. So I write all my own prayers. Yeah. Yeah. To piggyback on that statement you see me when I come up to the poem and I pull a prayer on a sheet of paper those prayers are from the heart because I said hours and I write out what I'm thinking and I set it off to the side for about 24 hours and I go I've learned this as a doctor from the United States Army at the school and I go back and say is that what I really want to say but I give my eyes a break and then I bring the prayer back and I say is this what I want to say is this a relevant to the situation and then I cross out rework and you don't have one standard prayer that's going to fit all the situations it's just not going to happen and so that is a very good piece of advice saying from your heart and even if you stumble over the words people know it's from the heart guys when I'm out there and I do the fist bump and I hug you and or the chest bump or I trip you up or whatever it is that we're doing out there do you believe I'm genuine? Okay because if you don't believe I'm genuine why are you people elected me? No one else Okay jump to shame don't get offended you mistake after class my point is when I tell you to care be genuine in your care you don't have to be articulate you don't have to be a great orator you just when people see the genuinality of who you are you're going to be golden all right? Yes sir I have a question I've asked several times Okay and I've got to say until two or three years alright but for the last 18 years I've served as a later okay for the DAF and district chapter and now the department chapter and third so the question is what we're discussing today next evening that having a cross on my brother is going to be a mentor and we should take them off or should we leave them off? Okay this is where you have to go back chat planning you have to know your people if you've got anyone else other than the Christian faith as members then it's not wise to have a symbol of your faith displayed on the DAF cap when we just said that it is a non-secretary can I see a lot of cross on that and there's nothing wrong with them up there if you know your people okay you've got to know your people I mean what good is a chaplain if you know you're just out there plowing through life and you're not looking left and right and you're not taking those steps or stops once in a while to discuss stuff with folks to get as this young lady said right here listening and communicating getting to know them what good is that if you're not going to do it and then you've got a cross on there or maybe the the moon in the crescent or the crescent and star or the Hindu Buddha God and guess what we kind of violated in our constitution model alright alright who's this guy every year for I'm sorry I'm sorry tell me how I'm learning like this gentleman here I've been a chaplain since May and I grew up in the Christian faith so what's hard for me is to change how I pray okay so when you end your prayer you just say amen is that it or that's a Jew? no not necessarily who was that on the moral service how do I end my prayer amen amen now amen is Christian Jewish in nature because I don't think in Islam they end your prayers in amen so there's that it means that it be doesn't it yeah let it be so let it be so but amen it's so be it yep so be it or how about just change the religious term and just say at the end of your prayer so be it because that's what amen means but amen means the same thing in every language it's not pronounced the same way in the Bible it means different ways the fact is amen means the same thing let it be so and typically that's not going to be offensive to anyone and if they if they are offended they'll come tell you about it now this this is before I came chaplain it's always been they walk in they open the Bible then they start their meeting and then they pray and then I pray then like when you brought up the point about the Bible I mean that's what I'm thinking about who is like how do I get them probably just be belong to somebody maybe you can play in the Bible or actually you bring up it's a great question the Bible does it belong in the in the all in the meeting as part of as part of the meeting well I have news for you some will say yes and some will say no I would almost guarantee that if you go back to your chapter or to your department and tell them hey guess what we're not going to put the Bible out anymore they're going to skin you a lot now the fact of the matter is this we have a president every four years sworn in on a sacred text I don't think that I've seen anyone sworn in on anything other than a Bible it is not it is not that we want people or that we expect people to deny faith it's just like the whole LGBT thing you don't have to condone but you don't get to condone you know and the thing with that is you know our chapter we have the we have the Bible on the table it's open before the before the service wow before the Jesus no there you go but before before we get started it's already open right and that's so that there's it's not part of a ceremony but it's there it's done at the department honestly there have been some times when I've been nervous about what I was doing and somebody else had to come up and open you know okay chat well I got this but the fact is it's there in our constitution and bylaws in the lies that I'm supposed to be responsible for the Bible now again it's up to you and your membership if you if your membership says yeah fine let's can the Bible let's not have any religious texts up here so be it you have to abide that if they don't if they want that I mean isn't the power of the body I mean the power in the DAV with the body so again we have to remember we're not it's having a Bible out is not sectarian in and of itself that's that's the point um it is there probably for tradition more than anything but there again leave it out one time and let's see what see how your members respond alright um I guess and then we'll and then we'll go back to you sir okay okay um the duties of the chocolate okay is that to read the obituaries every morning to see who has passed away and then go okay is that going to the hospitals around to see if you can find members and the thing is is that um go and visit the people who are members and you have no idea who they are but you just I just pick anybody who's over age because I know that they're probably more need than someone who's under because because I got more people who's over 80 right now than it's under age and these guys go and visit them and they have been abandoned by the families or the church or synagogue or whatever and they really need a visitor to come in and just talk to one gentleman said it's great you're the first male voice I talked to face to face in three years wow well you draw a jewelry well if you're going to visit someone in the hospital remember they're not there for conversation they're there for convalescence yes you don't need to spend all day with them sure and I'm not saying be stingy with your time we as chaplains if you're well for lack of a better word called to be a chaplain you're already giving up your time right that's fine that's what we do but don't overwhelm somebody often times when I go in to visit someone I will wear a jacket even if it's a hundred degrees outside I'll have a jacket a suit coat or something like that and I don't wear suits as much as I used to but I wear a something over so that when I walk into the room I can take it off and set it down spend 10-15 minutes with them offer them prayer and put my coat on the reason I do that is because psychologically taking off your coat and putting it back on creates the image that you've spent a good bit of time I know it sounds it sounds bad but it works because they may want you to stay for an hour that's not really what's best for them they're there as I said to convalesce not to converse so another what you're saying is you need to be sensitive to their needs sometimes look guys I'm not by all means not good I'm just safe by all means I am not perfect and let me tell you something early in my ministry career I can't tell you how many souls I destroyed not being religious I had to brow beat them over the head with the Bible saying you can't you can't you can't and I was not demonstrating but a lot of issues about consulate now it took me a while to learn that I hope you don't have to wait as long as I did to get the lesson which is why we're imparting this to you but the reality of it is it's the same with nursing homes it's the same with hospitals hospice be sensitive to your surroundings you don't need to go in there and start preaching the Quran or the Bible or in new prayer you know this is very close to home to me life my son was raised in a Christian home his whole life he goes off to college comes back he's got in new gods all over the place and then he curses his mother and I telling him that well there are many ways to get to God well I love my son I'm not going to diss him he's my son I'm going to love him additionally which is the same kind of attitude we should have towards others regardless what they got tattooed on or what they believe whatever the case may be we're chaplains I can't drive this home enough we are chaplains all over the place so all over the place I will if you're Hindu. And you say in Jesus' name. They don't believe in Jesus. And even Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, wasn't to some God. And then Hinduism believes that you can become God by turning inward and creating, you know, dissipating the surrounding environment by chanting a few other things. So who are actually being discriminatory when you say in Jesus' name and all the children of God said, that's why you need to know your people. And so it kind of, it's the same rule of thumb, ladies and gentlemen. You've got to know what it is that you're representing. Now I'm going to talk to the chapter way back in our auxiliary national chapter. How are you doing there? What are the other things to remember is also, because it just, it was brought back to me on the auxiliary side, is remember also when I were written in communication, we're being really great, we're sending out wonderful cards to someone that might be sick or distressed or to the family that passed away. Remember to extend the non-sectarian there. Because for instance, okay, and I'm just picking a situation. Perhaps you got those free cards and you're a staunch Catholic, that's fine. I have no problem with that. But if you send them to someone who perhaps might have another faith, who might be Protestant or Jewish or what have you, sometimes your well wishes are a very long message of your card. It might be a free card. You might have had the greatest intentions in the world. But try to look at the cards before you send them and make sure that they also are non-sectarian because your message of love or thoughtfulness, sometimes if you don't send it in a non-sectarian way, becomes a message of lack of thought. Thank you, Chad. So why don't we have cards specifically made for DAB? We do. We do. I can't plan. We're not in the middle of it. Go to the store. They're taking notes. We do have cards. I'm going to go on this side over here. Yes. Will, chapter five, New Mexico, I'm a new Chad phone as well. The question I have is either guidance or something on when you go to the hospital. If you were brought up not to bother others, and my first time was Veteran's Day, I had some I couldn't visit because of the Mars infection in our hospital. But others, they're resting and I didn't want to go in and disturb them. But I had coupon books that would help them. So I gave it to the nurse rather. How do you get past the, I know they're there to heal, and I don't want to disturb them. But I want to at least go in and say hi. Yes. Very good. That's a very good question. So here's my guidance for you. I would not leave anything. If a Veteran that you're visiting is sleeping and there's no one else in that office, don't leave literature with the medical professionals. If there's family there, I would leave the material with the family. But what I would do if the Veteran is sleeping and what I do is I go in and say, how are you all doing? What can I do to help you? Does anybody need some water? Does someone need me to go get them some food? How long have you been up here? That's what I'll do for the family members who are sitting there by the side of the bed. I don't need to address the Veteran because by addressing the spouse or the family members that are there with the Veteran, what have I just done? I've just opened the door in rows to be able to assist that Veteran when he comes to or to make contact with the spouse so that the Veteran passes away. Now we can talk to the IC or whatever the special service is. Go in as a servant. You're there to serve. So when you said you were talking about disturbing anybody, that's kind of oxymoron for a chaplain. I don't want to say to go and purposely disturb people, but we are people. We are people persons. And that's what chaplains do. But it's how we approach someone and it's how we approach the condition of someone determines whether or not we can take a specific pass. Yes, ma'am. All right, chaplain, tell us. What you got? You got it? You got it? Now, by the way, this is Aurelie Nicodemus. She is the National Chaplain for the Auxiliary, but she's also a registered nurse with the VA's practical nurse. And guess what? How long have you been working in the hospital? In two weeks, it will be 35 years. Okay, so you probably have a lot of good examples. So the answer is please don't wake the patient up. Please. They may not have slept for, you know, then maybe the first time they've gone asleep in three days. Okay? So don't wake, but it only takes about five minutes to just put just a little business-sized card thinking of you today. You know, chaplain so-and-so and your contact information, you know, or get well quick when you're thinking of you on a little piece of paper, staple it to that little thing and leave it right on the bedside table, you know. Or if it's a precaution room, they usually have a little thing that you can clip it on the outside of the room, then the nurse will take it on the next time. But chasing around the nurses is not a good plan or giving them stuff to do because they've got too many things in their hands already. But again, if you take your coupon book and just take a minute and whether you want to write it on the outside cover and he and writing a personal message or whether you just want to do something on the computer and print it off, you know, thinking of you today, get well quick, you know, we're here if you need us, your name, but just something that's in writing so they can contact you, but that way you're not waking up because please don't wake them up. Now you just heard from a subject matter expert. Now what we're going to do is we're going to take two more questions, guys. Would you do me a favor? Put my email up there. If I did, don't get to your question right now because we have another, I've got to go anyway. Charles, I understand that you have to come the same place. But I can come later. Okay. What I've got to do is in about five minutes I've got to leave and go to the C&A because I've got to present myself and prove that I am who I am. So it is a formality. I've got to do what I've got to do. But if I don't get to your question there, I want to put my email address up here, which is mpdover62. mpdover62 at gmail.com. Write your question and I will get back with you today. I'll write you, sir. My answer is not a question. Okay. Anyway, I've heard how do we want to get back or bring that for the next year and a half to give to some of the new... Ritual book? Yeah, he's talked about, he's heard what we've been hearing, the chaplain's ritual book and the constitution bottles. Constitution bottles can be easily gotten in any time. The chaplain handbook for just to lay it to rest does not exist. The chaplain handbook does not exist because I can't get the updates produced because of the county secretary stand. Even though I have an old one from previous in the past, I can't even hand that out from the position I hold right now. So the bottom line is guys, man, make a suggestion, go to a book store, a Christian public book store or a religious book store. You can even go to Barnes & Over which is not religious. They've got religious material in here and they've got books, all kinds of the how to conduct funerals, how to conduct marriages, how to pray, how to be conscious of what it is that you've got to go get and you've got to know your people so you know what kind of appropriate prayers are necessary. With that said, I'm going to leave with Charles for the show of late. I'm going to let him finish out the question. And by all means guys, if you've got other places to be, that's fine. But I want to make sure before you leave here today that all your questions are answered and that you don't leave not understanding what the DAB's point of view is, alright? I love each and every one of you. And I'm thankful that you're here and I know you're going to have a tough battle when you go back because they're steep in tradition. Steep in tradition and it's really hard to crack that time. But be persevered and do the best you can at that. So with that, Charles, I'm going to turn it over to Charles. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.