 Okay, my name is Judith Bartels from Germany and I've got a background in publishing houses. So I've been an editor and just last year changed to the university to work with OER. So when I saw this thematic session about friends of faux publishing houses versus OER, I was like, yeah, that's something I can talk about. So here, my opinion, OER and publishing houses actually complement each other. So that's based on our German educational system. So here we have that in Germany, the education is regulated by states. So it's a federal system. And this means we have 16 different curricula. And that's kind of hard to make than fitting school books. So in theory, there are then up to 16 different school books need for each subject each year. And this makes it kind of hard. And but we have a pretty accessible system, education system regarding money. And because schools and university are financed by the government, and therefore school material is provided by the schools itself funded by the government. And universities have large libraries so they can students can borrow the books they need. And actually educational costs can be returned through tax refunds. But unfortunately, it's barely used because no one knows about it. And it's a lot of bureaucracy to do that. And of course, there's financial aid through student loans from the government. And that means money is a minimal drive for OER in Germany. That makes it a bit different than in the US, actually. So what about school books? So what is the purpose and requirements for them? Actually, books, school books in Germany, one part of it is that they guide the teachers through changing curricula. Most of the times with each changing government, the curricula changes and new curricula come and teachers think, how do I do that? And the school books guide them through them, how to teach them by that. And as I said, it's barely possible to make one book fitting all curricula. That would be that thick. And you can't tell students to carry that to school. And so we need different school books for different German states. And that means publishing houses have this resource to do that. And they meet this need, actually. And on the other hand, we have the small materials, educational materials that is also required for teaching. And it's worksheets, videos, small units, photos. And they they need a different need for teachers because every teacher has their own teaching style and they want to use that flexible and adaptable in their in their classroom. And this is a need OER can meet perfectly in their huge variety and their possibility to adaptation. So that means they have all their respective strengths, OER and the publishing houses. So publishing houses, on the one hand, they have the school books and print. They have resources in form of money and experts and a huge effectiveness due to their existing infrastructure in authors, editors, print typesetters. I mean, a schoolbook production is at least one to two to three years. And that's just for one book and an editor working 20 like a full time job for it. And then we have the professional quality assurance and trust from from teachers in the quality. On the other hand, OER with his it's bottom up and from teachers to teachers and small dynamic material, mostly digital and high diversity and rapid adaptation. And of course, it's fulfilling the five hours in that it's you can reuse it, retain, revise, remix and redistribute. And so if you take money out of the equation, they actually have their own unique selling points that do not overlap, but complement. So the idea is open educational resources and publishing houses have both their right to exist and their respective strengths and are complementing. But of course, we don't live in a perfect world. So right now there is a lot of fear of losing the means of existence. And and there is there are a lot of prejudices beholding us of cooper collaborating here. So but how could it work? There are some starts. So there's, for example, open access and publishing houses working together like the Springer Publishing House. And they they do publish scientific publications under Creative Commons license. Additionally to their normal publications. But there is a fee and article processing charge, which in Germany they have the deal agreement, which means that they publish only they pay only what they publish. And there is no subscription fee anymore. And the university pays are paying it and not the authors themselves. And it includes an access to online articles. And but this fee doesn't apply for low income countries. And there's an advantage for higher as a it is a higher visibility and greater impact. Another nice example is I really like the Norwegian digital learning arena. And I see there are some colleagues from Norway sitting there. Love love this project. And they make state funded OER for upper secondary education, vocational studies and digital material, online tools. And with the philosophy, what is best for learning versus it's not what they want they want to do was best for learning and not best for business. And the money is coming from 20 percent of what was recently used for school book and not only 20 percent of it. And this money is now used to buy OER. And but still printed books are still widely used. And that means there is a low impact actually on on publishing houses. But still the publishing houses most of the big publishing houses resented and don't want to work together with them. And they only work together with small publishing house startups where they buy the OER. But I get in my opinion, there's a huge possibility there. So in summary, publishing houses have the USP in school books. So OER is hard to find the resource and infrastructure for this time consuming big book production that is especially needed. As I said, in the example of Germany with 16 different states and books needed. And and they have publishing houses have their reputation and quality. On the other hand, OER they have their USP in the small material, adaptable and and then the places where the publishing houses can't make the money. Say where they can't make big profits. And so they take the small markets, they they go where where publishing houses can't go are flexible, diverse and helping and teaching. But there is still lots of fear and resentment. But in my opinion, the cooperation can be really beneficial. So let's overcome prejudices and start collaborating. Thanks for your attention. Thank you, Judith. Thought provoking, I think that the publishers and the open community is often set at polarized spaces. And I'm interested to hear some questions from the audience. So please, if you have a question, raise your hand at the back, say it. Yes, please. I think the first question is at the back there. Can we just do that one first? If you don't mind, thank you. We'll come to you in a while. Hi, thank you so much for that really interesting talk. So I'm an academic librarian and focus a lot on looking at transformative agreements and reinvestment of money in different open access publishing models and whatnot. And part of what you were talking about with looking at investing, shifting away from investment in traditional publishing models to open access titles or other open titles. Where do you see the fiscal responsibility for this sitting in an institution? Do you see that as, you know, university libraries paying for this to subsidize? Do you see it being subsidized by, you know, student fees? Do you see it as being paid for by the university? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. In my opinion, as this in Germany, education is a state thing. So it should stay there and that the state finances it actually. And so through the university, the state's finance, the universities and the universities then distribute the money further and use it for OER. I think that way is I think let's just do the questions in order of how the hands were raised, please. So our colleagues from Norway, please. Thank you. Hello, I'm Margrethe from Norwegian Digital Learning Arena. Thank you so much for your kind words. I was just thinking about when you were talking about how we see in Norway and I think it's also a movement across the globe by shifting towards more student centred and more problem based learning. And in Norway, we have research that shows that when this happens, teachers also shift from being very reliant on a book and kind of following the course of the book through the year and starting much more to design their own learning assignments for their students. And then they want to pick and mix learning resources from different places to fit just their needs at that time. So so I think it could be possible for the publishers to kind of move with this. And of course, the book we see at the book is one of the sources that the teachers would like to use in this context. But as we see things moving, we also see plans for ecosystems where the publishers would would have to kind of take their digital resources and you could pay for just one bit of it and not buy the whole. So that is one movement, but the other one is closing everything into one big digital universe that you had to pay to get into and you will never get out of it again. So there's there's very much happening at this time. So I don't know if you see that in Germany as well. Yeah, thanks for the question. Yeah, actually, that's unfortunately the thing that publishing houses in Germany do the big ones. They they do make some OER, but they're closing it off. And so you have to pay a total fee. And and in my opinion, there's a lot of innovation missing. So the innovation is coming more from the OER side, making it new digital and publishing houses. I actually struggling to make it new to think new. They're pretty conservative in their structures and their thinking, which prevents them from stepping also in the future, which is actually creating those this fear of missing out because they're they're losing their ground because they're not evolving with the digitalization with the new ways of teaching. And I really love schoolbooks. I'm coming from there. And I think they make a great foundation for teaching, but they are not everything, definitely not. And also books can change in the way they are presented. There are also ways of digit using digital books. And so also with making new financial models, unfortunately, publishing houses are not really creative. Thank you. Just for now, I think that we need to move on to our third speaker. So we'll have some time, possibly at the end of the session. But can we have a round of applause for Judy.