 Vermont PBS in cooperation with Orca Media and the Vermont Press Bureau presents Capital Beat, the Week in Review, from the Vermont State House. Here's host Neil Goswami. Welcome back to Capital Beat. We're pleased to have you back inside the State House with us. Last year the Vermont Senate passed a legalization bill, marijuana legalization bill, that would have created a regulated market here in Vermont. That did not fare very well in the house, but the house is back this year with legislation to legalize up to two ounces of marijuana. Joining me today to talk about this legislation is Representative Maxine Grad. Welcome, the chairwoman of the House Judiciary Committee and Representative Thomas Burt at the ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee. Thanks to both of you for joining us this week. Representative Grad, can you just give us a brief overview of what your bill does, which both of you are sponsors of? Exactly, as well as Vice Chairman Chip Conquest of Newbury. So the leadership team of the House Judiciary Committee are the lead sponsors. So what our bill does is, well it's introduced it, as you said, it did legalize possession of two ounces of marijuana and and up to seven plants. Right now it's looking like it will be one ounce because we heard some concerns and so possession of one ounce of marijuana and I believe six plants and it removes the the criminal penalties for that small amount of personal possession. And I spoke to you I think about five or six weeks ago at the very start of the legislative session and you said one of your goals this session was to create parity within Vermont's laws pertaining to marijuana and other drugs. What, where are we right now currently with Vermont policy on marijuana? Right, so when I referred to parity I was referring to under our current decrim, decrimalization law, if somebody has up to an ounce of dried marijuana that's a civil ticket, it's a civil finance, it's like a speeding ticket. However, if another person has similar amount of a plant, that person is a criminal and and I don't think that's that's fair so that's what I mean by by parity. Last year the Senate sent a bill to you. It created a regulated market and I think it got about 25 votes in the 150 member house. Why did that fail so spectacularly in the house? What was it about it that everyone was so uncomfortable with? I don't think Vermont was was ready for it. It did not allow any ability for people to grow. We heard that there was concerns about you know corporations possibly dominating the market there. Infrastructure concerns and just what wasn't ready. Okay and so what is what has transpired from last year to this year in terms of where Vermonters are how they view marijuana policy and where lawmakers are? Right so again so this this bill is a penalty is regarding criminal penalties it's not a tax and regulate bill so I don't so I I want to be clear that we're not talking about that Vermonters are not ready for tax and regulate that's it that's a different discussion that's a different committee but I think that people do feel that personal responsible use of small amounts of marijuana should be on par with alcohol and tobacco and that decrim has been successful although it's still people are still feeling like criminals they it's people are still being incarcerated they're still getting tickets you know expensive tickets and so we could we could really do better with our criminal justice resources and and I think you'll hear from representative Burt it in terms of you know liberty issues and responsible use yeah that's a good segue to you representative Burt it you are a Republican and you joined the chairwoman who's a Democrat and the vice chairman of the committee who's a Democrat in sponsoring this bill right you your constituents in your district may view this differently than others around around the state of Vermont so how did you arrive at being a co-sponsor of this legislation I have to go back to last year a little bit last year overall I'm pro legalization but I have constituents to work for and with the bill last year they were very vocal I heard a lot from them that they wanted me to vote no and as it turned out I would I consider myself because of because of my views I consider myself the vote that that killed it in committee I mean it came out of our committee five six right and it died and you know fast forward to this year it's a whole new makeup in our committee we have five new five different members are not all new and as soon as I got here early in the session I heard that the legalization was coming back and I kind of surveyed our committee and saw that I was 99% sure it was passing out a committee and I didn't want to be I just didn't want to be in the room in the discussion I wanted to be at the head of the table what was something to say and and to do some work for my constituents and there's a couple things in the bill that you know that I brought up right off that I didn't agree with which was the two ounces for my constituents and that was a deal breaker for me it is a deal breaker for me to get that two ounces back to an ounce you know it less is the main thing that I was shooting for in the plants and I thought nine plants was too much and we heard from the Department of Ag here here in here in the building that we can actually get away with six total plants too mature for mature for immature instead of too mature seven immature so those were a couple of deal breakers you know that I set those parameters early on that what I felt I could do for my constituents if I just sat if I was just in the room and had nothing to say I could have done nothing for the constituents and maybe it would have come out with two ounces in the nine plants yeah so okay this might be an unfair question but do you do you see the Republican caucus or members of the Republican caucus supporting a legalization this year the majority of the Republican caucus no I have talked to a few people that that are considering voting for it you know a few people that that probably will vote for it but overall I don't think there's gonna be any any big swing as far as the Republican numbers go okay yeah okay representative grad the representative Burt it mentioned the reworked remade committee do you see this committee as being more friendly toward a legalization bill this year and was that the intention and when this bill or when this committee was put together I see this committee as being more friendly I don't think that was the intention and again more front last year we we were looking at a tax and regulate a very big very different a very different bill so I know it's we often go back to last year's bill but we really need to look at this separately differently we also need to look at it in terms of criminal justice reform work and its entirety that our committee is doing so this this is really a piece of it we're looking at reclassification of felonies in other areas we're looking at bail reform we're really looking at our criminal justice system what's working what's not who should we be incarcerating what should we be spending our criminal resources dollars on so so the the whole committee is very open to to that broader discussion and so this is this is just a piece of it and I think that we're finding that really education is really the most effective way for prevention that incarceration you know doesn't work another thing that I think is very important about this bill is is that right now our even our decrim system creates a tension between law enforcement and citizens they still you know they feel like criminals and and I think that that community policing is incredibly important perhaps more important than ever right now and so whatever we can do to alleviate any tension in a way that's not you know harmful and I don't think this bill is harmful and have law enforcement and community members work together closer in other areas I think that's a win-win yeah one of the issues that several members raised last year was the home grow issue and that was not on the table last year it is in your bill so what what protections are included in the bill to make sure that people are growing in a responsible way and it's not sort of out available for anyone to snag so it has to be out of you know public view plain view I think you know talks about being in a secure place and once the dwelling yeah it doesn't have to be locked or secured in some fashion it talks about secure we haven't we haven't defined that it doesn't talk about locked other states do have locked I think we need to be careful if we start talking about locking up substances because frankly we should be locking up alcohol opiates some people would say guns I mean I you know sorry I you know I again I think you know you know absolutely it should be secure as I should all things that that could potentially harm somebody this the legislation you're working on is largely similar to what's happening in Washington DC have you received representative or any feedback on how that is working in our nation's capital well it's hard to figure out how it's working because I can't find anything online I've every time I try to search something you know if I if I go to teen use you know highway safety that type of thing Colorado and Washington state always pop up right and you know with what's happening out there and and actually it's it's good news in those states as far as teen teen use goes in teen uses is dropping throughout the country and a little faster even in the states that have legalized but but Washington DC I can't find anything so what that tells me is that nothing has really changed you know they've legalized you know a very small amount they've you know legalized a few plants in it again it tells me that people are using it for personal use and if their numbers aren't changing if they really aren't going up or down yeah and everybody who not everybody but 99% of the people who have testified in committee they're always reciting again the numbers from Colorado and Washington in several I've asked what information have you got from Washington DC and they've got nothing yeah and that's what that's what that's what we're modeling after is Washington DC I mean you know you hear the horror stories come coming out of Colorado you know with the edibles whether it's you know kids getting hold of edibles you know because of the the retail market that they have out there or animals you know eating them or people going to the emergency room and I find it interesting as a libertarian leaning Republican that where there's more government intervention there's more problem Washington DC there's no there's no government intervention right and we're not hearing any problems so to me that that's if we're going to go in this direction that's the model to use and Portland main actually has had an ordinance in place that that very you know a few people knew about that that it's you know by ordinance legal in Portland main prior to know that to their yeah prior to their ballot okay it's I think most people are aware the governor governor Phil Scott has expressed his leaning toward opposition at this point through through people who speak for him he's sort of come out more against it than he has in the past one of his key concerns is road safety and I know that's something that your committee has been looking at and seeking to address where do we stand with with road safety in terms of legalization and do you believe you can satisfy the governor's concerns last year if I remember the numbers right we had about 25 DRE drug recognition experts in the state and and there was money allocated for another 10 to 15 to add to that and from what I remember last year is we were told that that would suffice that would make the state whole in a sense as far as the number that we needed there's you know there's also another program called a right I don't remember what a ride stands for yeah but it's a it's a it's a specialized training yeah specialized training for recognition my son is on the police force out in Seattle and he's a ride certified it says it's a great program and it works really well but so as far as satisfying last year we satisfied what the criteria was last year and it seems like if we have enough DREs last year then it should work for this year right yeah the other thing is we have actually testimony today from our state's drug and DUI prosecutor that these are really separate issues and and should be treated as such and that we've had problems with highway safety for a very long time and it's certainly been one of my priorities is 16 years that that I've been here and and that the Transportation Committee I know is looking at those at those issues so it essentially it's an existing problem that the state is working to address right and it should be dealt with separately from a legalization bill absolutely because we must continue to address it and and like and things much as Representative Bird said much more is in place last year on additionally our forensic lab is being upgraded that's been a huge issue in terms of actually being able to prosecute impaired driving cases because blood tests would have to be sent out of state it was very expensive our lab it will be up and running in September so I think that's another thing in place the same thing with prevention people are very concerned about prevention we heard very very encouraging testimony from the Department of Health that there is prevention social media a website for parents in place that was not there last year so you know and and a year ago people said I was the one that that killed the killed the bill and because of my concerns many of those you know that that the governor expresses now and so I think the fact that and and Representative Bird talked about his vote last year so the fact that here we are sponsoring this bill shows that a lot has changed in a year yeah and so I've got about 20 seconds left you do do you both believe that you can make the convincing case to the governor that you're working to address those concerns and that he should end up supporting this well we'll do our best I mean we put the facts you know out on the table and I mean you can't deny the facts of how far we've come just in a year as far as highway safety and education goes okay right very good my thanks to Representative Thomas bird at the Raking Mender member of the House Judiciary Committee and Representative Maxine grad great thank you and we will be right back with Senator Dick Sears come back to Capitol beat I'm now pleased to introduce Senator Dick Sears the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee from Bennington County and representing my hometown of Bennington right thank you for being here senator thank you have me Neil so we talked with Representative Maxine grad about the House bill dealing with marijuana legalization it's it's very different from what the Senate passed last year can you give us your thoughts on the current sentiment in the Senate about where we should be heading in terms of legalization you know we haven't really delved into it formally but we've had some informal conversations I've had with several senators and there seems to be a broad consensus that we're happy that the House is taking up legalization after last year's debacle and at the same token I think there remains sentiment in the Senate that we would prefer a regulated system with a full-blown way to sell marijuana try to eliminate or at least reduce the reliance on the black market and now with Massachusetts in Maine having passed legalization laws to limit the amount of money from Vermont going out of state to Maine and Massachusetts to buy marijuana in terms of a retail market last year was a it was a pretty expansive bill do you expect if if the House sends you a bill that legalizes marijuana do you expect that your committee or somewhere through that legislative process in the Senate that our retail market would be added to the bill I don't know if it be added but it certainly would be considered but you have to in a legislative process have to kind of figure out what is going to be doable and we've had a change in leadership in the House a change in leadership in the Senate the change in the governor's office so we will certainly look at you know what's what's doable but you don't want to give up everything in pursuit of the perfect right from our perspective what might be perfect so we're willing to work with the other body to try to develop some kind of compromise position that at least puts us on a track towards a regulated system okay a couple things about the House bill it in its current form where it where it stands right now it would be two ounces or less of marijuana that somebody could possess legally does two ounces seem like a reasonable amount seems like a lot to me given the amount of discussion that we had in the Senate regarding the amounts and I think when you look at the ability to again forcing people into the black market is a problem and so the possession of an ounce or two ounces that's certainly negotiable but I would prefer an ounce okay the governor Scott has raised his concerns with the bill and one of them in particular is the road safety sentiment that we would be dealing with a number of people perhaps driving under the influence of marijuana do you see a way to satisfy the governor's concern the Senate bill last year I think would have satisfied the governor's concern it called for more drug recognition experts it called for every trooper and as many local officers as possible to be familiar with the a-ride program so that we can detect drug driving in the normal course of events I noticed in the paper this morning there was a case in Bennington of a driver who had an accident and they identified her as driving under the influence of drugs she went to the local Shaftesbury barracks of the state police and was processed in charge with driving under the influence of a drug through the drug recognition expert so we feel that by increasing the number of drug recognition acts experts so that they're available statewide and geographically available is one of the best methods but assuming for a minute that people aren't driving under the influence of any other drug other than marijuana I don't think it gets to the problem I I think people are generally dry you know some people are generally driving under the influence of certain drugs yeah whether they be paying killers that they have a prescription for or they'd be cocaine heroin you name it so I think to just focus on marijuana and say we're not going to legalize marijuana until we have some system to keep our roads safe it's kind of putting the horse after the cart yeah you're a veteran member of the card after the horse right you are a veteran lawmaker here in Montpelier what is your sense in terms of the chances of passage this year for for legal marijuana I would say they're fairly good but I certainly wouldn't be counting on it I think it's got a lot of hurdles to pass as I said you know I'm not sure they have a majority in the Senate I mean in the house last year there was a it was you know a very difficult but then again I'm not sure how many people that actually were familiar with the bill and actually yeah spent time studying the issue but at any rate if there's if it can get through the judiciary committee and get through any other committees it needs to go through that I think it has a better chance okay now last year after the very lopsided defeat in the house right you and others in the Senate said you would wait for the house to move forward on the legalization bill but in the meantime the Senate has been working on a medical marijuana bill that would expand the program so can you just give us a quick update on where you're at the medical marijuana bill that the Senate that worked on is actually something that was worked on by the Justice Oversight Committee this summer and we had general buy-in from both house and Senate members on most of the recommendations that were put into the bill the bill does a number of things one it adds PSTD Parkinson's and Crohn's disease to the number of diseases where you can treat the symptoms through medical marijuana secondly it allows the dispensaries to become for profit when we originally set up medical marijuana we required the dispensaries to be nonprofits and there is actually no benefit to them and it actually hinders their ability to raise revenue and do other things so we allow them to become for profit it also would it would seek the expansion to from the current four licenses to eight and the hope there is that the extra licenses would be used to have better geographic this distribution of the dispensaries for example one of my constituents had to drive an hour and a half to Brattle Bro to buy some plants to start his own grow operation in Bennington and an hour and a half is that's one way so it's a three-hour trip to buy his product we also have done some other things like allowing advertising which very limited but it was the same language we had in S-241 last year the marijuana bill and the reason for doing that was that we're certainly believe that it if there was a challenge they haven't challenged yet but a challenge by the dispensaries that we didn't allow advertising the courts would find that it was a first amendment violation to the Constitution would order that so we felt to take a preemptive strike and say it's limited advertising would be a better way to go and it does a few other things okay and that bill received I believe unanimous support we didn't hear any I heard no knows it was a voice vote and there were no knows I've heard some concern expressed by some senators about PSTD being added and some folks at UVM certainly indicate that it may not be warranted but at the same time a month of the understanding that there was a case with before the Human Rights Commission where the Human Rights Commission has found that we're discriminatory by not providing relief for the symptoms of PSTD with Merrill medical marijuana so we'll see where that goes it's up for third reading tomorrow and I don't know if they'll be if we'll wait and hear a little more from the University of Vermont and others very good senator Sears thank you so much thank you and I see your Bennington flag absolutely always appreciate it well you know we're fighting refighting the battle of Bennington here in the state house and on behalf of everyone at Orca Media and Vermont PBS I thank you for watching the program and we hope you'll join us again next week