 All right, all right. So we're starting now. I'm still admitting some people. Wow. That's quite a quite a quite a group today. So I'll just introduce myself. I'm Justin Tadlock, developer of Relations with Automatic and we work on mostly WordPress.org stuff. At least me around the theme area. Yeah, and Damon Cook here. I am a developer advocate with WP Engine and have been in the WordPress ecosystem for over a decade and in the past always a front-end developer. So working with WordPress themes. Daisy, unfortunately, was not feeling under the weather today. So she she's taken some rest. Good for her. Hopefully she feels better soon. So yeah, there's a bit of a cold going around, I think, for everybody. And I do apologize ahead of time if I was telling Damon earlier. I like getting a five minute coughing spell on my have to leave y'all. Hopefully that's not the case. So we're just here to talk about themes today. And we can if we want to you want to just like we can open up the floor to anybody who's got questions or we can just kind of dive into things we might have we have listed. So why don't you tell us what's on your on your list if you have an agenda and we'll fill it in. Okay, Damon like you have that pulled up right. Sure, yeah. Let me share my screen real quick. I have here. This is the phase two customization track. Is she tracking issue. Mostly just because this is what and it's been focusing on but also yeah this is kind of where a lot of the efforts are being poured into lately. And I'm just scrolling down to the styles area because that kind of seems to, you know, be in this groups wheelhouse. Yeah, I don't know should I dive in any of these peeking interest here. This is kind of a new. Yes, input for customs CSS I have heard a lot of, a lot of people requesting that. Yeah. And this is, this is progressing along pretty good I think it's beyond design at this point. And I want to throw a related question to that. There are some things that we can do in seemed adjacent or with Gutenberg yet. So how would mixing both seemed adjacent and a regular imported CSS style sheet effect performance overall. I don't think it's going to would have much of an effect on performance at all. Everything and themes Jason is going to be in line in the heavier sites on a per block basis. Right. Whatever gets run through seemed adjacent has to go through that through the style engine that that has always been my concern. Yeah, I don't have it on hand but I knew there was a recent commit that actually saved like cut back quite a bit on like will help the performance on the style engine. I think there's some talk maybe of doing a little caching of that that may have been what the ticket was and I hate even try to attempt to pull it up right now. Okay, no, it was just it was on my radar a few days ago. And I'm sorry for just jumping in like that but there is a whole lot of questions that I'll ask later. Okay. Yeah, I feel like performance wise like we, I mean we're in a really good spot in terms of like style sheets. Like, I mean you get a lot of this, like this is automatic in line of the styles is great for the front end. Because you're only using the CSS that you need on any given page. You know, I think, you know, we're hopefully getting away from the days of like two and 300 kilobyte, you know, CSS style sheets that we've had in recent years would like the big things and in terms of like adding the custom CSS on top of that. I'm guessing that's like all going to be loaded at once on a page. I don't think it'll be parsed in any way because it just be custom. And I see that more as a user feature anyway. I don't know about like using that whole lot from the theme developer perspective. I'd like to like push theme authors like completely into theme.json as much as possible. Yeah, yeah, there's also that I'm trying to remember if I published it there's a what's not published that I do have a post coming out on the developer blog which we just soft launched yesterday. I don't know if anybody's seen that yet. The WordPress developer blog, and it will like go into some of the performance enhancements that you could do as a theme author. Hopefully we'll get that live here in the next couple of weeks. That post. Oh yeah it looks like a dev in the chat that hopefully that answers kind of directs to your question to about where does custom CSS go now the customizer is gone. And this in this upcoming feature of adding that they're working through right now having a custom field for custom CSS on a per block level will fit that need but with that being said yeah I think being that Jason is really kind of the first stop along that path of where we should focus getting styling and appearance parameters kind of set up for a theme. Yes, I haven't tried it for 6.1 yet but what I discovered making a block theme for 6.0 was, there were a very few things that I couldn't seem to control through either the global styles or the theme Jason, and I just put styles into a, you know, style dot CSS file and there were only a handful of them there, there were very few. And in at least one case it was a style for something that that was being pulled in from a plugin and, you know, wasn't actually part of core. And two areas that I've seen that are that are really getting some activity are positioning, which is a pretty complex, you know, solve to dive into, you know, having like a maybe a sticky header. But also, I know drop shadow that I think there's a ticket going around there's there's progress being made towards doing a drop shadow, which I'm sure will eventually be in the theme that Jason as well. Yeah, I literally just built my own custom drop shadow a month ago and, and now core WordPress is going to have their own. So fun. Yeah, we have a Doug is raising his hand. Yeah, hi. Hey, I just was checking and I noticed that whenever I hit the large for the paragraph block and select large and I look at it on the developer tools and it has an important tag to that. Is there a reason for that. You know, um, well, I hate that we have to use imported but is that in the editor, or is it in the the generated in the front ends. Yeah. It's the, you know, has large font size selector. Yeah. I mean, there's a good reason for this because it's kind of impossible to know like what other styles are like, you know, from plugins or things are like hitting that. And this is like a user choice to like, you know, choose that large size and we want to make sure that, you know, it gets priority. And I would think that's probably like the biggest reason. And because I mean, I mean, if you've ever, you know, you create themes and you know how a plugin can overwrite something or vice versa. Like just with, you know, just any old CSS. So but what if you want to overwrite it. Well, as a theme author or like, No, it's just as a user just putting in a style sheet, you know, or I had to import I had to set up a class and then do my own. Okay, I understand like you want to overwrite the actual size of it. Yeah, the best way would be can you I mean, do you have access to that and the interface I know you can overwrite overwrite it's via, you know, theme JSON. I guess if like we had the custom CSS thing you could target the the CSS property, which would be like dash dash WP preset font size I think Yes, Doug is that something you're trying to do sort of globally for the large font size or individually. And the next question of course is, does that particular theme let you choose custom sizes for fonts if it's in the block. Yeah, I was just using the latest beta version, you know, and I noticed that in a couple of other themes that I'm working on. I've been using not necessarily the block editor or Gutenberg only for, you know, posts and wanted to make it so that if somebody wanted to when they're putting their text in if they want to have a little bit of a larger font size without being too large or without having a separate section so I can override that but I also have to put an important in on my side to do that. Yeah, I think if you're doing it via CSS you can actually just overwrite the custom property instead of using another important. Yes, I can but necessarily can't because it's a hidden, you know, or as a developer. If you're if you're setting that theme up so that your users can do it, you can create another, you can add another font size instance to theme Jason, and then use dogs. Yeah, my preference preference would be opening up the custom font size through theme.json if you have access to do that for other people, you know other users. And did that help any hopes. I was just curious about the important because I mean even if you're using a plugin and it overwrites it and you're using the plugin that may be what they want, you know, and they can't. Yeah. Easily. I mean I can set that up and make it change right but my users aren't me, you know, not necessarily going to go in and figure it out. Yeah, I'd love to sit down and like just walk through some scenarios with you if you want to like pain me on slack sometime. I think we can like kind of like just dive into the code a bit and like figure out a solution that you know works for the specific situation. Yeah, I've been able to get around it. My users can't. So if they want to have it large but not as large as it is. Yeah, I think we can just the best options are really just, you know, allow for a custom font size, which would overwrite those choices or, or create some other sizes for them to choose from. Yeah. Okay. I was just curious because I know that, you know, whenever I start seeing a lot of importance in a, you know, CSS it just kind of triggers me a little bit. Yeah, I get it. I'm sorry. I'm the sign. Okay. All right, thanks guys. Sure, I see I'm going to skip it back. I see Michael. I apologize and Tula question is this move towards per block styling and CSS a good move. It seems like we're going back coupling content and design, rather than setting styles that control design from a more global universal space. The big question. I think that probably depends how you're implementing it because we've got the global styles to try to say in general like these are the fonts we're using all over the theme. These are the colors we're setting these are the this these are the that, but once in a while there will be in, you know, and normally your quote block should look like this and you're, you know, etc, etc. But you are going to want sometimes to modify an individual block somewhere because the predefined design doesn't fit it. But all the styles for WordPress for a page and a WordPress themes are in line. So, all your, all your custom properties are in line all the block styles are in line to the element. So how we author it and how it's how it's written to the page. And to have that much of a connect and I worry about in line styles because they add weight to the page that may not be necessary. I think that there is. I think we're heading in the right direction. And that yes, I am in line styles can be concerning at times but I think that with theme not Jason and just kind of abstracting CSS away into Jason objects and Jason data, that's going to allow kind of a long term benefit of taking all these different layers because because we're, I mean, core is going to. We're trying to consolidate the core styles with, you know, theme and plugin styles and then end user styles give the end user maybe whether we want to or you know based on a site, give that option also and take those and fuse them all together and make and set, you know, the, the, the end goals decided all ups for success right and make it look good so I think there may be some duplication of the output of CSS right now and I don't think it's I seems minimal. I mean really, but I think that in the end, we'll see that getting refined more and more and it really just the CSS will get faster and leaner. I think I've already seen that benefit since early days of Gutenberg for sure. Well yeah they've improved a lot regarding loading block styles only where the block is actually appearing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going back to the jumping back to Michael's original question is it is a good move to couple these things with. I think I mean there's a, you can go as deep as you want like in terms of like saying like I want to allow users to, you know, might have like put put in individual block styles, but you can also like disable all that as a developer. You can turn off all the per block stuff like in the post editor and really style the website as kind of a holistic, you know, global thing. Yeah, I don't know how I feel about like, you know, saying I want to put this make this paragraph blue or, you know, this text white and then you know next year, I have a blue background or something on the website. That's something I've struggled with so like, you know, I tend to like turn a lot of that off for like, you know, I mostly just do friends and family websites now. So like, I just like disable a bunch of that and just give them the right like just the basic tools. All right. Okay, Lisa. Will it be possible at some point to work with negative margins via the spacing and theme that Jason. That's a good question. Technically, it is possible to register a custom size, spacing size, I don't know if that was supposed to be possible or not. It's set a negative size that's registered. And it works, or it did a few weeks ago when I went six point one rose was released. I think the disconnect is between what you can set and theme that Jason what the user and the UI can kind of see and do because right it's because now we're using the steps right so in that case it would probably be a step system. I don't know if you can read. Well, there are the there are two ways to register custom spacing sizing you just do the steps. And the or you can just like, fully, like, add your own sizes through theme.json and that's yeah, I have a tweet somewhere while I was showing somebody a couple weeks back I think, like it works. Yeah, I kind of I wouldn't want to play around with it too much like on a production site yet, even if you kind of figure it out. I'd like to wait for WordPress to make the UI better or the UX better. Negative margins are hard to to give that user experience that you need. Yeah, you need in there. Yeah, I think that that'll probably play out a little bit to the positioning right because just. I mean, in my mind I don't know if it's going to be an application wise as far as the WordPress core but you know, taking maybe a group block and being able to overlay it or say that it's going to be one's going to be on top of the other there's some complexity that's got to be solved kind of in a smart way to do that and allow users to kind of interact in a UI level and the theme builders also be able to set some settings in a smart way so. Yeah. You had one like bump up your ZN index just you know one slot the next thing you know your is your drop down menu is heading behind it and yeah, so there's yes it's a complete complex issue. Yeah ZN decks alone I don't know how that's a hard one to do a UI for unless you kind of. I feel like he and so yeah you kind of have to have a technical understanding of the background of what the index does but to service that me UI that's going to be interesting solution shares away. Alright, so we got any other questions or Jessica says CSS grid is a good way to overlap items. But yeah, and but that needs a proper implementation. That is true. Yeah. I mean, if I can add on that it's like. It feels a bit like Gutenberg is trying to. Yeah create CSS or recreate CSS properties more and more like we have now these border control that has been enhanced and I think the problem is like where do we use what we can. Or what's already implemented in the editor and when can we step into CSS and coded directly there, either via the style CSS or custom CSS blog that we mentioned earlier or even at the individual block so I think this. I think we need to maybe over time see what the best practices are to make things work, either on a more global scale or on an individual scale for block if we need it. Yeah. Yeah, like figuring out all these best practices is just one of those things that is going to take time and conversations like this. You know writing on our blog sharing what we've learned. My favorite thing about the WordPress community is we need to like share our knowledge with each other, and we've always kind of done that. So, yes, it's going to take a while to figure out all the best practices and I'm also glad that's why like we even though like Gutenberg development feels like it's like been pretty fast paced it's also been slow in other ways. And I'm kind of happy for some of the like we don't have like we didn't jump into, for example, like some kind of media query based, you know, options for design tools. And, like I think if you jump too fast and some of that you don't have time to really figure out the best ways to use them. Yes. Yeah, good points. Do we have other questions in the chat or anybody want to chime in with questions. I have a question about typography the whole reason why I ask about the merging of CSS versus the editor at the beginning. Because there are things that you can do with typography in CSS that are not part of the typography in the editor yet. And I'm wondering how, whether it's going to be possible or not, like I'm thinking about using font variants and open type features that are very font dependent. My thought was always use CSS. But if we're pushing for seemed adjacent to become the source of truth. And the one point and the single point of authoring so to speak. How do we get this to work or to work in a way that it's going to not going to break the system. I think there's it's interesting to see like even Jessica hinted at the, the idea of having, you know, I don't know. We can speculate or whatever but whether there will be absolute parity between every CSS property and the UI. I don't think that's, you know, technically and probably practically feasible. You know, so I think there will always kind of be a need for some custom CSS like, you know, using some kind of custom font ligatures and passing a property for that. You know, that's a perfect example of, I can't imagine. I don't know, I don't know if there will ever be a UI to surface something like that. Maybe hopefully. On the other hand, we did work. We do support variable fonts. Yeah. That's what that's what's always been my, my tag between using seemed adjacent and between just using plain CSS. It gets really confusing as to where is the line that it has been drawn. I should stay on CSS or whether I should stay on seeing that Jason. Yeah, so like, I just kind of try to follow like what's new in Gutenberg what's new in WordPress. If there's, you know, an option available via theme Jason then I'm going to use that. If not, you know, just I just jump back over to CSS. And it's not always like you hate like I said there's a bot shadow feature that's coming. It's like if you have a theme that relies heavily on bot shadows, you know, right now it's all in your CSS. You know, three or four months now, you know, it may be now you're having to recode your theme to, you know, make use of the theme Jason version of that. And it's kind of it is a pain, especially if you're dealing with a lot of clients or if you're a theme developer with the business. So it's, I hate to say like you just got to keep up with it but technology is always changing. Where do you draw the line like if you're trying to plan for the future. I think we're like, we're pretty close to like where we were presses pretty close to where it should be. In terms of like what CSS features it's going to support as design tools. There's probably a few left, but we've got the major things covered color background shadow. I'm not shadow border type of the primary typography tools. I think a lot more of that's just going to be around refining how those tools work and I don't know. So any, I don't see like a supporting a more kind of niche typography things, unless they just become pretty popular. Any other thoughts on that. Yeah, I think that's, that's, yeah, it's kind of, I don't know, I hate to say like edge case but it's certainly a value when you need it. Definitely. I saw, I don't know that just brought me to brought to mind the work being done for a font management kind of interface which is on is currently underway, which is pretty neat. But I'm sure a lot of complexity to solve there. Yeah, I'm really excited to see like what happens with the font manager. Yeah, like just fonts in general or or seem like they're always a hard problem to solve ever since I've been developing on the web. Yes. I think the current, I mean, the theme that Jason implement implementation of pulling in custom fonts is a little clunky for sure. Especially, it can be a barrier at times so I think, yeah, it's definitely a needed feature, but there's so much yeah there's so much complexity to solve there, especially even with like variable fonts and having none, like, different unusual different font weights that you can apply so yeah but they're definitely taking that what I've seen there's there's considerations around all that so I'm reading through their chat a bit. Yeah, we do have a page that has all like a living reference for the. There's also somebody asked if there was a page for theme Jason reference there's one link but we also have there's a living reference page that I'm going to leave in a chat. I'll try to wonder if I can. Oh, well my car already beat me to it so. I'll try to get these links so I can share them with the recording to. Okay, right did we come on let's get folks in the group to raise their hand. Those some hard ones. Let's see. Anybody like I want to cover some of the other phase two customization stuff. Yeah, I can share my screen again real quick. Let's see just add in. Yeah, get back here. Here we go. Yeah, here we have this is what we were kind of touching on the fixed position header and voter we kind of already discussed a little bit there's work being done around that. Oh, that would be pretty cool. Like, yeah, I've gotten that question a few times. You know, like developing with the, like the site editor like. Yeah, it's kind of hard to think about how do you do a fixed header, like if a user comes in and. Like moves the header down below another block or something, or like how does that affect the entire page. So you had we had to get things like I think template locking in first. I have anybody has anybody tried out like. They it's called content only locking I don't like the name, because it's really. You, since 6.1 you can lock down the design and allow the user to only edit like the content portions of a block. I think you can put it on the group block column and cover blocks right now. But it's all it's not there's not a way to do it so you have to put it in your code. And then you can put it in patterns or your templates. It's kind of one of my favorite features so like I can keep like, say like my cousin who who is not very tech savvy but he runs his own blog. And I'd like to keep him from completely destroying it every other week. And of course calling me because because I'm the administrator. So it's a great way to refine the kind of editorial experience of what they can get in and edit, you know, just the pieces they need to edit and not accidentally kind of delete an element that needs to be there. Yeah. Yeah, so like, yeah, I mean that's all my agenda over the holiday is to put some locks on the header and footer and. And we're just pretty much everything that is not, you know, a color or something or text. But he, he's done well with the like transition to block themes actually like he struggled forever with the classic editor. And I was, but I've had him on the on the blog thing for a couple of years. So it's fewer questions anyway. But we'll see how like, now that he has like side editor editor access will say how it goes. Here's an interesting one may get easy to copy and paste block styles this kind of ties into. I guess. Well, actually now I mean we just think of how there we just looked at a ticket around custom CSS for a per block basis to. So I wonder how I would assume that would tie together some of you copy the styles if there's custom CSS. That would it could get pretty tricky. I have not seen that we yet. I don't want to go like there's is there a PR yet or it's just a ticket. I want to go play around with it. Yeah, no, it says needs that's just been through design. So it's really neat. That's a great feature though. All right. Yeah, I think Damon and I are we we were probably running out of content so we're just looking good. Yeah. Like, yeah, we want to make sure like for seriously like if there are like any questions related to theme development, or even plug in development development if you want to throw those out there, even though it's a more of a themes meeting. Yeah, don't be shy. There's the font library work. But this again this is all future, future forward stuff. It will be really nice to have that integrated in the UI somehow I mean it's pretty straightforward how to do it in theme Jason with the font families but it still took me a couple of tries. Oh yeah. I think at a certain point, the theme Jason a lot of times like if you're just hand coding that it all the nesting can start by getting confusing. There is a plug in that I've seen like a YAML version like to create your theme Jason. If you're if you prefer YAML you know you can believe comments in there and Yeah, I pretty much never touched YAML. Yeah. Of course, there's the create block theme to is that Carlos chiming in. Now go ahead. Oh, you, you're up. Okay, this is something that has always bugged me. If, if an item in the theme that Jason file is wrong, or it's placed in or it's wrongly placed or it has an error in it will the entire item that that is attached to fell to parts, or is it just that item that gets ignored. The whole thing messes up. I've been lucky so far. Yeah, everything breaks. That's the problem. Like, you know, Sally, one thing that I do is I linked my Jason file online. I will post a link to the linter I use so that I know if it's broken before I before I paste the code into my to my installation into my theme, and that has saved me a lot. The errors that it gives you are hard to parse, but it's a lot better than trying to figure out in WordPress what got broken. Because there, yeah, there's no like error reporting on the WordPress side for the Jason and I believe me, I've like, I don't know how many times I've like, why, you know, is this not working. And it'll be a straight comma or Carlos that that sounds like a brilliant idea. And I think there is some tooling like I know this is probably pretty technical, I don't know, but for VS code, which I use there is like, you can see in line, you know, it'll underline items that are kind of mistyped, or, you know, not nested properly. If you have the. What's the key entry at the top. Yeah. Yeah, one way I'm trying to think of. Yeah, the json lent.com which Carlos linked as great tool. I've used it in the past. But yeah, I've only switched to VS code like two or three months ago so like it's, yes definitely changed the way I write code for WordPress. There's far fewer errors. Very much so. Hey, I'm the person to that spent like 10 years on notepad like windows notepad like coding. So I'm glad. Yeah. Oh God, when I first started building websites, I was writing in Microsoft Word with macros to add all of the tags and saving it is plain text. 1994. Yeah, we're spoiled today really. We've got such great tools to do this with. But yeah, so if, yeah, if you make a mistake in your theme json and yeah, you'll get if you like your front end it'll be. You'll have the wrong colors wrong fonts everything it just. It won't work. You'll still have a website it just won't look really good. Yeah, I shared the link I think this was kind of where I got my setup from. Yeah, this post here. Yeah, make sure you're you're putting the schema at the top of your file and it'll save you a lot of headaches. Yeah. The schema and diversion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, good point. Yeah, let's see here. This was a yeah this was another one that I was looking at earlier but again future forward and needs dev so it's not even in development yet. I've heard a lot of kind of requests around this of being able to manage and switch between different style variations and even themes in general so this is pretty interesting exploration and progress. Yeah. Global styles theme switching and I don't know like a part of it feels like this, like, you know pipe drink a little bit like getting all this to work. But I think it will be could be exciting. I think we're going to really have to change our mindsets about like developing themes or at least like publicly release themes. You know, like where the whole theme is just not ours like there may be pieces that get taken apart and mix with like other themes, you know, or you know patterns from different themes different styles. It's going to be interesting but I don't have to watch you know your design was never going to survive its first encounter with the user. It just, it just doesn't no matter what it no matter what you're using to build it. You know some tools make it easier for people to turn it that you know the site you built into geo cities than others but Oh yeah. Unless you're talking about a custom design for a client versus a theme for many people to be able to use there's a limit to how much you can lock down. And anyone smart enough can unlock it. But on the other hand, having to not knowing where the structure of the site comes from. It's also a little problematic because how many block plugins do you have to install to get your site running and what, at least I've always told people be mindful of the number of plugins that you have on your site. To avoid blood. So if we're trying to stand. So trying to come up with a comp. Again, it's a compromise. And I totally agree with you Justin. That was one of the first things I wrote. When I started working with Gutenberg that is a change of mindset. Yeah. And that's very hard for some of us that have been around for far too long. I use the classic editor. Yeah, my workflow is such that trying to use the block editor is a real pain in the neck that I'm still trying to figure out. Yeah, well I'm not gonna lie. I write in more down offline, you know, that's, you know, that's what I do and I'm glad the block editor like it sets that and like converts it for me. It's really awesome. But we all have our own workflows in terms of that, you know, preferred editors. But yeah, but yeah, we will like going back to changing our mindsets about development. I think there's like a part of you that has to let go of like some of those like, like the things that are really entrenched like in your mind like how you build. That's sometimes it's scary and like you and you're also like really comfortable with like the tools that you've known for two, three or 10 years or whatever. So, like it took me a while to like really jump on to like block things. Like let go of some of the things like I wanted to control. Like I'm a control freak in terms of design and development. And like just one day I was like, I've got to quit this like it's going to drive me crazy trying to like fight against the system. And just like really appreciate like the good things about it and try to use those to my advantage. And I'll just like ramble on on on about that if you'll let me. Yeah, I know from, I mean, just kind of my agency background that I, you know, when you and I think it was 5.8. So, you know, quickly embraced the theme that Jason and it would happen to be coincide with a project that with a client that had basically four or five kind of micro brands within the site so they had a kind of a general style. And then they had these three or four different products underneath the same site with different colors. So it was an interesting song, but it was kind of the cutting edge at the time and I had to really ended up I remember registering lots of colors and the theme about Jason but trying to keep him organized and labeled properly and Yeah, I think it's hard to make that time sometimes and but you just whether you can set aside an hour today or an hour tomorrow and just try try to chip away at a new different implementation that of something new that came out we core then it's going to benefit you in the long run. Yeah, I'm good. We do have a question. In the chat. Is that more more key or more CEO. I'm sorry if I'm butchering your name. More business related question. Do you personally think there's still room for premium non bespoke things. He thinks that might be mainly because of the lack of a good chunk of CSS features, but wants to know what we think. I think there's plenty of opportunity for the premium theme companies to really take advantage of like these new tools I mean now is a great time to like get a head start like while there's only, you know, what less than 200 like free think a lot things. I think, you know, I have to change the how the businesses run like what features there might be a lot of experimentation about what you can upsell or, you know, if you're doing like a freemium model. But, I mean, I could see like, you can use something like patterns along with style variations to like just take one theme and like build these like different variations for, you know, like a restaurant or, or say if you have a restaurant theme you can have different variations for, you know, a piece of place or, you know, taco stand, or whatever it may be. There's a lot of I think there's a lot of room for experimentation that for sure. There are companies that are starting to work on things like block patterns and integration they haven't necessarily, you know, made the jump fully to FSE but I think there's as much market as there ever was I mean I've had colleagues argue no no no there's really there's just not going to you know your theme is just going to be the sort of empty shell and people will put things that it was like, no most people are not designers right I mean I have some clients that they want to place every single pixel on the page. But most clients do not want to try to figure out how to design it how to make it you know, like no tool is going to turn anyone into a designer so if you can create something that is cohesive and attractive and useful and accessible you definitely have an opportunity to sell that. Yeah, I think it's just yeah, you've got to provide something of value that people see and that to feel like you're kind of walking along with them on their journey in terms of like getting their side up. For me, I did run a theme business for a little over a decade. And the biggest thing I always focused on was support and like just being there for the customer more so than like, you know what fancy features I may build they just want a website where they can put their. I want to put my stuff here and share it with the world or you know have a business I want to sell this are, you know, or I got to put this music video. And they just want simple solutions and not to most of me of course you do have the people who want to again recreate geo cities on their website or and that's that's fun to you know I enjoyed the early, you know, web. That's what I came up on. Blink tags. Yeah. I think I would say that I think there definitely is a gap as far as I would love to see like a plug in. Yeah, but I think this is plug in territory, but it could be done in a theme to a premium theme area but animations I think are a big kind of thing. And, but it's a tricky slow because you want to do it handle it carefully and gracefully and so that would be an interesting, I think, exploration. I think it sometimes go back to premium themes like I think it can be hard to be exclusively a theme company. Okay. There. I mean there's probably there's, I'm sure there's success stories still today, but like, usually you're building around some other plug in or, or, you know, another, you know, service or something. Yeah, I don't know. That's not really my area of expertise anymore. Well, I know we're coming up on time here. Yeah, we want to try to get in on the last question from anybody. Yeah, or two minutes left. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, we can go ahead and wrap it up then. Thank you. Thanks everybody for making it out today and thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day. Enjoy the rest of your evening. Thanks. All right.