 But with this, it is time for me to now move on to the panel discussion. A reminder, please continue to post in your question to the esteemed speakers, and we will try and get them to respond to you. Also, you can participate in the Twitter buzz with our hashtag hashtag which CMO. Our next panel is a rather very interesting one, the topic being building salience for EMI service for online purchase. Taking us through this, our session chair is going to be Mr. Nitin Mathur co-founder of 91mobiles and the panel is sharing their insights. First up is going to be Ashwarya Murali, the head of marketing zest money. This is with Venkat Raman, the joint president, marketing and alliances. We've got Vivek Kumar Sinha, chief marketing officer, whom credit India and we've got Arvind Thambad, the vice president, growth and marketing unique cards. Well, with this, I'd like to humbly welcome and invite all our panelists. Thank you so much for your valuable time. And with this, I'd like to pass on the live page into Nitin. You know, it's going to be a great panel discussion. We are seeing our panelists now join us one by one by switching on the camera. So, Nitin, you've got this mammoth task ahead of you to take for this valuable discussion in the next few minutes till 6.30 and have a great panel discussion. I'm passing on the live page into you now. Thanks. Thanks, Bhavna and hello to all my fellow panelists. I think it's a very interesting topic that we're talking about today because at 91 mobiles, we've had an insight view to the emergence of EMI offerings and BNPL as a very standard way of buying online. So, you know, we get about 30 million people every month who use our site to research which gadget to buy before they go to a store to buy it. The user survey show that the percentage of people using some form of EMI service to buy a mobile or a gadget has increased from under 10% a few years back to a little over 40% in a recent survey that we did about a month back. So this may be specific to our user demographic, but also I'm sure a directional trend in the market at large. So let me kick off the discussion with Vivek from Home Credit. So Vivek, Home Credit's been around for a while. So could you kick off by giving us some sense of how you've seen the market as well as the consumer mindset around EMPL and EMI services is all over the last few years. And what's been your experience like this. Thanks, Nathan. Thanks. And thanks everyone for being here. And that's it, right? Home Credit is in India for quite some time now, right? We have completed more than 10 years in the market. And we are primarily the consumer derivatives company, you know, financing companies as you can see, because this is the our way of, you know, getting new customers on board right before we actually give them the other services as well. At the same time, over the period of time, when we evolved and we started giving personal loan as well as a new to new customers. But when we started, like you said that when we started, we started with this consumer derivatives product, right, where we started financing custom to the customers to buy the new mobile phones, right? And if I look at that time, I think you would probably say that the market was still dominated by one of the biggest player that still is the market leader, but was dominated by that player. And it was still being served to a certain segment of the customers because taking a loan was a privilege to a certain set of the customers, right? And this is where the, I will say, in last decade, right, this is where the, the lending is getting democratized, you know, where it's not getting limited to one particular set of the customers where everybody is more than willing to come forward and take the product, right? And the biggest change, right, if you actually look at that has happened in this segment is the not really being negative or being known errors. Okay. And what I mean by that, not having a taboo about that I'm buying a product on EMI to manage my requirements or fulfill my needs. But rather than accepting this, this is a one way of paying for the product that I want to acquire, right? So this is the biggest mindset change. And this mindset change, while it is started with millennial, you can say it started with the younger generation where they wanted to experiment, they wanted to enjoy, they did not want to wait for something to happen to avail something in their life. But now this is cutting through the ages. It's no, when we started with the millennium, it's cutting through the ages. And this is where the second point that you said is actually we are saying in BNP era, right? If you look at BNP, now, unfortunately in India, BNP is still very gray area, to be honest, because BNP still works in two different ways. One is the consumer derivatives when you actually had genuinely take the BNP, second way is that I give a small loan, but I consider that as a BNP. So it's a kind of gray area. But even the BNP sector that you look at, right, it actually started getting accepted more about by the young generation. But even the BNP is from, you know, discretionary spends that what it used to limit to people are accepting that as a norm and going to the necessary items as well. Today, I'm willing to take a BNP service even for my health care. I'm ready to take a BNP service even for my travel, which is not my discretionary spend, which is my necessary way of living my life. So the acceptance of EMI to fulfill my dreams, right, is no more a taboo, is a reality and people are willing to experiment with that. And people are willing to talk about it, not rather than, you know, hide it under the carpet. So that's how I would say this is how the market is evolving. And, you know, all of us are actually seeing this, witnessing this. And like you say home credit as well, right, we started that we also evolved. We started with consumer derivatives offline, right? We said, okay, this is a hybrid market on the market. You can't have just offline. We created online consumer derivatives and stuff. You know, while offline, you may say offline and online, but the reality of life is offline will never replace the offline market forever, right? Because we have a large set of underbanked Indian customers who are still, you know, even if they want to, they will go to the shop and they will take the product, right? We have a large set of Indian consumers, right? The next billion segment that we talk about the next billion segment in the segment, which will still go to the offline market. So that market will continue to exist. So it's a complete, you know, omni-channel market that is there. And we are pretty much we also evolved from just offline to omni-channel from similarly for the, you know, EMI services. I will not limit just to the consumer derivatives or I will even say, even to the cash flow, the personal on market, right? Earlier model used to be just the tele-sales or somebody visiting the customer place and selling or somebody at the mall selling some personal on kind of thing or the branches. From tele-sales, now the channel is shipping. I think people are actually taking digitally. Even our home credit, the kind of, you know, offering that we have started, right? People see, if you look at two years back or not two years back, ten years back, you must, anybody was willing to accept three days to get a personal on this much to the bank account. Because I was okay with the idea. I will apply for a loan. My application will go to the bank. Credit processing will happen. Somebody will come, we'll come visit to my place. We'll do the field verification. Then the report will go. Then somebody will say loan is approved. Then I will do some check signing and all. After that, I'm willing to give it to three to five days to get the loan dispersed. Today, the delight factor is 20 minutes, right? Yeah. And wall factor is three minutes. But okay, in three minutes, the loan is in my bank account after all the loan application journey. That's all we have also involved today. We do more than 50% of my personal on digitally where the entire journey is into and without any manual intervention or human intervention. That's how the life is. Great. Yeah, yeah, I think thanks for that. I think it's a couple of very interesting points including how an EMI service is not as much of a taboo as loans would have been back in the day. And that's, I'm sure, driving a lot of traction. I'll move to Aishwarya next. Aishwarya, I know that, you know, Zez money has been an early mover in this space in India as well. And I think at 91 Mobile, we've had the pleasure of working with Zez money over the last few years to promote your offering to the gadget buyers on our site. And Zez strategy and positioning, you know, especially when it comes to online and, you know, marketing, etc. Seem fairly nuanced, at least on digital. So, you know, could you please outline how, you know, you sort of you look at your marketing strategy and if it has, how it has might have changed over the last few years, you know, with the market. So, thanks. Thanks for that. And I think it's great how, you know, we heard about home credit also talking about how EMI's and loans have sort of grown over the last. That's the process of, let's put it, un-taboizing this entire piece, right? With respect to Zez, I think the, while it is a BNPL player, the largest, the deepest BNPL player that exists today. What we sort of thought about when we were looking at the brand and looking at how to talk to the consumer is that there are two, three simple insights, right? The first is that money is a means to a better life. So money is never an end in itself. That was the big thing. So money is always a means to a better life. It's always the means to getting some, getting to a place where you went before. So money itself and, you know, the features and the way to access it is brilliant. But the reason why people do it is because they want a better life for themselves. They want a better life for people who are close to them, whether it's their parents, whether it's their kids, you know, all of that. So that was the primary insight that we worked on when we were looking at, you know, Zez money. And for us, I think when we looked, and I think our inspiration itself came from our millions of consumers who have taken BNPL with us, right? Their stories are just so heartwarming. One of them said, you know what, because of Zez, I could afford to get my mom a better phone. And then that allowed me to get my uncle a better laptop, you know, and he just went on and on and they had taken like six transactions with us just to get better lives. And this was the common thread that we saw. So that was the genesis of us building out the brand to tell everyone that a better life is for everyone. There are 400 million people out there, you know, and they are untouched today by any, like the problem of credit in India is that unfortunately the top millions have access to a plethora of options. And then underneath that are a whole section of people who don't even have one of those options. Right. And that's the dichotomy. That's that's like quite a drastic dichotomy that exists in this country. So the idea was to say that, you know what, a better life is for everyone. It's just not for that cream, you know, kind of consumers. And that's where Zez money sort of came in. So that was a larger promise. But of course, the reasons we could sort of deliver the promise was really the reason why we chose it, which is the fact that a, it like, like, you know, earlier erstwhile red tape, there is no red tape here. It is a simple onboarding process. You can it's online consumers, the young consumers today is used to the convenience of downloading an app, getting his or her sort of service in sort of 20 minutes like, you know, like was mentioned earlier. Right. So that was one. The second is I think with Zez, the other advantages, the affordability comes alive and the aspire life comes alive because the depth of merchants as well. So starting from an Apple. And like you said, Nitin 91 mobiles, we've done fantastic activations with the 91 mobiles, right. So starting from Apple to 91 mobiles to you know the everyday use cases that we may want. We sort of cover the plethora of it so it's not like we are use casing only to a particular sector or a particular kind of use case it sort of spreads across so that was the second reason why we sort of said we could talk about the promise we did. And the third is of course, you know, like on, of course, in India is one of the most stable regulatory markets that exist right with respect to how RBI crystal, you know, the entire machinery. It's not flaky by any means right it's the most rock solid machinery that exists. So within that machinery itself, the way we are able to pull different kinds of, you know, credit or credit scores of consumers and develop that algorithm to get the right credit and sort of be, you know, more often than not more sure about sort of giving loans and EMI is and credit limits to people. I think the combination of the three so the merchant depth, the fact that, you know, you know, we want, we have the RBI regulatory and the algorithm to get that credit limit going. Plus, of course, you know, the fact that we have a depth of depth of depth of merchants and use cases to offer I think those were the three that sort of made us sort of. Okay, let me put this way, the entire work done by the team is what helps marketing say what we can say right which is aspiring a better life is for everyone. And that's really the genesis of the way we built our campaign to say that you know live better today and you can aspire to something better. So that's really how we built out marketing for Zest. Yeah, thanks, thanks for that. Come to Arvind next Arvind, you know Unicards is relatively newer player in the segment so it'll be interesting to hear your thoughts on you know how you know position and compete with the more entrenched players. And you know to what extent do you think that an offering like yours can displace those of some of the traditional banks as well or you know even to drive penetration to previously unbanked people when it comes to services like this. Thanks. You know, Unicard is relatively new right we're just about eight months old our product is eight months old. And of course we want to change the way people interact with credit, you know with a range of products for every consumer segment, right. But of course you know every startup has to make a choice and start somewhere right and so we started with a BNPL product for existing credit card users right, which is which in itself is large right and you asked me why. We realized that every individual irrespective of how much they earn they have two or three occasions in a year where they face a short term liquidity crunch right and the existing mechanisms, you know to solve those problems size a credit card with very high interest and very rigid rules, of course that are hidden charges, right. Personal loans which you know not easily available for short term consumer loans. Or other means friends and family locals loan sharks etc really doesn't make sense. So we realize that a product that actually smoothens out these liquidity crunches that people feel on occasions right would be something that can actually appeal to an existing credit card user segment right and that's just the genesis of our of our product portfolio right and of course we're going to launch products for more consumer segments. Today we have a pay one third card which basically splits all your transactions into three parts to be paid over three months at no interest right. What that does is that it helps you smoothen out your spends or over the months makes it easy for you to make those makes it smarter in terms of cash flow. Added to that added to an innovative product to that solving the problem of convenience of banking right today if you if you consider. You know interacting with any of the credit card apps or credit card customer care it's very cumbersome right. Starting with a very simplified intuitive digital interface in fact you know right from onboarding which happens in minutes for us even the credit check etc happens in minutes for us. A delightful onboarding kit that we provide to the consumers from there on 24 7 WhatsApp support and you know a promise of no hidden charges backed by money back guarantee right actually has created a product that appeals existing credit cards credit card users right even the top 10 million right among them would go for union today we've seen uni being used for high value transactions for gadgets and jewelry but we've also seen very quickly within month to month three adoption on high frequency spends like food delivery also happens for our consumers right. We've and we've also realized because of the of the targeting of existing credit card users are default rates are one of the best in the in the industry today right and from here on our strategy would be to launch different products. Which are new to the category and back that with our experience and service so that we are actually able to create a tangible new set of products for existing credit card users right and that's today today that's our focus. Of course a larger vision would be to launch more products for consumers who are currently not in the ambit of credit cards. Right thanks. So coming to Elizabeth. Elizabeth, I think you hold a very interesting sort of, you know, mandate here because on the one hand you have the regular traditional credit cards, etc. at Quotap and on the other hand, I think you also have an EMI card which sort of competes in a sense with those traditional cards so how do you look at this this offering and you know what what is your outlook on the market as well as your marketing strategy when it comes to building out this category for for Quotap. So I think the products which have credit are you know now earlier traditionally it was available on credit cards right the EMI convert your purchase into EMI and it's an option after you make the purchase for you to convert. And now you know credit card penetration is is low because of all the, you know, credit requirements that are there in the system. So debit card EMI was introduced, which is makes it even wider, you know, widely available. And now there is, you know, for, for all customers there is a smart EMI card, right which you can buy you can come to our website and, you know, apply for it someone will call you offer existing customers it's on the mobile app and it's a click away. So what this does is that you don't necessarily need the card, you can go to a store and actually get it, you know, once you buy something. You can actually avail that facility with some little bit of, you know, details and paperwork you can actually avail this facility very easily even at the store. So we are, you know, we are present in over 40,000 stores, we are there on all e-commerce sites. So it's very convenient to avail a consumer durable finance today. So what this really does is, in the moment of truth when there is I mean some of our, you know, communication also says that you're at the store and you say oh this is beyond my budget, not really because you can, it sort of look at it over a six month period three month period and this is not long long terms of credit right it's something that the amounts and and the tenures are structured very differently for products of this kind. And not for you know the way HL or PL which have larger requirements and things like that. So it's, it's, it's very nice because it improves purchasing power, and it expands credit for many people, because credit cards penetration is still low in this country. So in that sense it really does that and especially in the pandemic since we're at the end, hopefully at the end of towards the end of that. What it does is a lot of people were struggling with making commitments on bulk purchases right so we had a lot of learnings on the fact that you want to preserve you don't know what is coming. So in my insight as well I think if people continue to make purchases, then they did use this facility just to be a little careful on you know what could be, you know that you need to save for the future. So this facility even became popular even then some of our research says that the pandemic accelerated, you know, the need for EMI facility as well. And from a customer perspective, I think somebody a lot of things I think the way a lot of it was already covered that the need has gone up the awareness, the awareness has gone up. Sometimes people say that is it as good is it it's too good to be true. So I think the marketing conversation really needs to be about taking them, making, taking the message to the consumer making it very clear, what is the product, and what are the terms, the transparency, you know, aspect of what is the exact deal, because customers are also there too much going on, like in credit it's, it's exploding. There are so many terms and, you know, while as professionals, and as the industry representatives, we are very conversant with all of that, but and credit card and debit card I think in a way has been around for so many, many years. So I think the task is to create awareness usage and, you know, some level of transparency in what exactly some of these things do. And so therefore, trust will play some fairly good important role in in making in for the consumer in some segments to make consumer decisions. Right. Thanks. Thanks for that. So moving on to, you know, another area which I think we can touch upon with everyone which is around, you know, the marketing and customer acquisition strategy with specific reference to digital what you know what plans are what companies are So Ashwarya, starting with you this time around I think you know you guys have had deep ties with e-commerce partners as well as OEMs, but also direct business I think has you know you've managed to make that I think fairly significant which is I guess the holy grail because it doesn't depend on any specific partner. So could you give us some insights on how significant that is now and what is the marketing strategy that works for you when it comes to building the direct business. So you're right. I think the way we look at marketing is like it's pretty much I mean in a strange way it's a lot like FMCG marketing, because while you have to get your brand out to you know the consumers, you also have to ensure availability in shops. Right. I mean it's kind of that dichotomy so yes you're right. I think while it's important to have, you know, a really deep merchant presence otherwise you don't get like you know what's the point of sort of getting the brand out there. It's important to also build some love and recognition of zest in consumers' mindspace because of course at checkout at the moment of truth, you know, you want them to consider you. So that's really how we've sort of looked at it. And the way we look at marketing is we look at it in three fronts we look at the pure play brand marketing as one aspect of things. We look at how that translates into direct digital marketing which is performance and you know the really hardworking thing which is based on you know getting us our impressions and our reach and therefore our you know funnels and and cat etc. So that's that's the second way we look at it. And the third is you know the category way you know of sort of ensuring that at the moment of truth whether it is at checkout or whether it's at that inventory space we're sort of present. So that's how we sort of have divided up the entire piece. Now the thing is that a brand marketing is something that helps everything right it doesn't irrespective of whether it's an acquisition which is through digital, or it is an acquisition through a merchant or a category brand serves the cause of just jumping us to you know higher top of mind mind space in some way or form. And that's sort of what we've started off starting last year, you know towards the end of last year. What we've seen is and when we did the campaign and you know, we've we saw that while you know there was a lot of consideration for zest and that played out in performance as well. What happened was even after all the festive and the sale and all of that period which is of course you know how how big you know consumption is in October November and December. We still had the brand recall and recognition when we measured our organic traffic or we measured even our brand track metrics etc. So I think that's what the brand does for for you it lifts you up into a level of recognition that sort of helps. And that is a long burn right it's not short burn we still have a lot of distance to go as we keep building it. On performance what we do is we do the usual. We sort of acquire whom we think are high intent consumers not necessarily merchant led or people who are going to buy today or tomorrow or now, but we know that they are in the market for consumption. We know that they're in the market for something so we target them and we've seen good successes there we've actually because of two things one is that we're picking intent based consumers. And secondly of course we know how advanced, you know, like Facebook and Google are in terms of just recommending right audiences to you basis what we already know. So that has helped us a lot sort of build our final processes. Having said that the third part was just category marketing is also very critical and we've started that as well. You know, because that's pure play intent right if somebody's coming to Amazon you know they're going to shop they're not coming there to browse of course some people do browse, but you know that they're coming to shop right. The only thing is that at tech in these platforms aren't as advanced as possibly you know your Google and Facebook. So the advantage of intent gets offset in some way by the algos that these folks provide. So but in some level that also gives us a good sort of good results. So I mean the truth is always somewhere in between brand for overall recognition performance for you know hard working intent based audiences to get through the funnel and consider us and category for you know, ensuring that are really, really high intent folks are sort of seeing us as checkout visibility and cut abandon etc and sort of jumping back to us. So that's how we sort of have thought of digital acquisition. Right, right. Arvind, could you please shed some light on your marketing strategy as well because I think you are predominantly only digital. And also, you know if you could touch upon, I think Elizabeth made a point that in this category it's a lot about communication and trust. So especially for you being a new service. Right, how do you how do you build that via your marketing activities. And for us, the leading strategy will build an aspirational brand, right, you know, because we are going after a premium segment within the consumers of EMI service. We want to build uni as a premium brand, right, which was also why we wrote in a mainstream celebrity just launched our brand campaign targeted specifically at this consumer. And we don't want to stand for affordability as much as we want to stand for enhancing the user's life, right, and you know, build a world around it through partnerships and storytelling. So that's that's the first pillar. The second, the second part of course, you know, of course, a lot of our acquisition today is through digital channels we go deep into understanding consumer segments channels etc do a lot of experimentation to arrive at a winning recipe. So our piece is is contextual awareness building that contextual awareness being present in e-commerce platforms right through either through offers or just advertising on these channels which basically builds an association between the occasion for which we are used and the brand. And that's largely how how we are going about acquisition today we have activities offline and online at purchase centers, whether it's shopping malls or e-commerce platforms, right, we basically builds that contextual awareness. In terms of building trust and transparency, right, in fact, this is one of the things we realize very early and being a new entrance also sort of, you know, there are pros and cons to it one of the pros is that you already know what's working what's not for the industry. And one of the things we realize that people are afraid of hidden charges, right, people don't know when they use a EMI service or a credit card or any other, you know, credit product. There's always this fear that might be get charged for something that you're not aware of, or, you know, getting charged interest on something that you did not sort of anticipate. So we took away that problem by, by creating a very transparent willing schedule, right, and this is one of the most important sort of aspects of our product today, right. Our charges are flat, we don't charge interest on interest. We don't in fact even charge interest from the data transaction every month if you want to pay a minimum due and revolve, you actually pay a flat fee. And that basically takes away the friction, the fear that the consumer had about using the service like this, right. And of course, you know, we also claim that there are no hidden charges if anybody does find a hidden charge beyond what we shared in the billing schedule with them, we actually give them my back, right. And so far, nobody has claimed that. I think we are building, you know, trust and transparency through a transparent billing schedule. And of course, the 24-7 WhatsApp support makes it accessible for them, right, if there is a doubt, if there is a question around any of those charges, they can reach out to us, right. So by making it more relatable, bringing the brand closer, bringing the customer service closer to the consumer, right, we are able to address the trust and transparency issue and I agree with Elizabeth, right. Building trust is very important and that happens through building transparency. Right. At know the uni has a brilliant, I just love the wikikosher, you know, roaming around in space and you know, trying to play the piano, it's really well done. Thank you, Aishwarya. We just, we wanted to drive the message of pain, three parts, really hard. And we took a bit of a risk with our creative rise and I think it worked out really well. Yes, extremely well. Yeah. Yeah, I think you don't need to point out with celebrity. I think it's one campaign that's reached a lot of people. Wake, your marketing strategy I think so far has been fairly offline but I think you also have plans for digital. So, you know, please, please talk us through what it has been and what what it will be. And also maybe touch upon, you know, how aggressive home credit might be in digital because, you know, acquisition strategies a lot of startups employed involved making a loss on the customer acquisition making it good over the next couple of years. You know, is that the sort of aggression that you would go, you know, with as well when it comes to digital. Thank you rightly said, yes, our so far, right, as I said, right, for us business I will divide into consumer derivatives and the personal loan, right. Consumer derivatives, yes, it's largely driven through my offline partnerships, right, so we are today present in more than 50,000 merchants, right. And it takes a lot of time and effort to actually be present on that large universe, right. It takes years of, you know, work to get yourself present out there, right. Obviously, are we going to get rid of the offline presence? No, we are going to be further on it. We might see that from 50,000 might go to 100,000 this year, right, so that's the plan. So offline, are we going to leave the offline? No, we are not going to leave the offline. But does it mean that are we going to not look at the digital channel? No, that's also not true, because at the end of the day, today this is how the industry is behaving, right. See, if you look at the home credit, our genesis, right, and the way we do the business, we actually try to serve the customers who are traditionally not served by the traditional NPFCs and the traditional banks as well. Right. So these are the customers today. Well, there are many new players who have come up and started talking that we are making credit available to them, but this is where we started. And this is how we actually, you know, did business. We always had more than 50% customers requiring that we're requiring new credit, right. There's no civil history, there's no credit history at all, right. And our processes have always been very simple, right. We never ask for an income document. We said, okay, just give your ID proof and it's just proof. We will underwrite. We have our own, you know, property algorithm to underwrite a customer. We do that. We underwrite, we give the credit, right. And we have been doing good so far in that, right. Second part to it, digital. Yes, we are also have a digital first approach, right. And when you say digital first approach, what we are doing is in the consumer delivers while we continue to be the offline person. And when we make the journey, right, for the customer, it's a hybrid journey. Customers want to come at the pause and do the offline journey with a merchant merchant will still do the offline journey but without any paper, right. Customer, we have a merchant app, we have an app for the merchant merchant actually logs into the app does the entire journey straight away without any paper document to be signed by the customer, right. So if our customers don't want to go to the cost on the first go, wants to avail the consumer delivers approval done and then want to go and pick up the product. We also have that option. Customers can come to our app, customers can apply for our EMI card, get the loan approved, choose the merchant where he wants to go and pick the product, he choose the nearby merchants, he goes there, he picks the product, he goes out, right. So for a consumer, I have the digital journey, I have the physical journey, I have the hybrid model, everything possible, right. So whichever way customers are comfortable, not the way I am comfortable to serve. Now coming to the, you know, personal loan segment. In the personal segment, we are always very, you know, heavy on daily sales where we used to call customers and offer the product. Now that is the shift that we are bringing in. Today, we offer as we said, I initially I said, we offer more than 50% of our personal loan end to end digitally. It means no physical interaction whatsoever, not even calling up or call center for any clarification. I'm saying that level of digitally, right. So we offer more than 50% and mind you, when we say our loan, we are not the small ticket, 5,000, 10,000 per person loan player. So for us, it's a big overall loan amount is quite large, right. So we are still among in consumer derivatives, we are not the number one, but they're still among the top NVFs in India, right. Similarly, in the personal loan, we are not the number one, but after the large bank where they have the sticker size is three and a half, like 4,000,000. If I remove the traditional banks, we are once again in the top, right. So even in that we do digitally end to end. Now, when we do that, are we going to burn the money to really do business at last to get some high valuation answer would be no. Because if we are not behind the valuation, right, we are behind doing a business where we give credit to the customers, but at the same time do a business which is profitable as well for us as well, where we have a number of employees working for us, shareholders making money out of the business at the same time. Like what Elizabeth said, our business model was always not today, even 10 years back was based on trust and transparency. For the simple reason being, the segment that we operated, those segments do not understand anything, they don't understand interest rate, they don't understand IRR, they don't understand APR. For them all they understand I have taken a certain amount, how much of amount that I'm going to pay you back. So if you look at our entire marketing campaign, we spent equal amount of, you know, or equal focus on financial literacy. Then and the amount that you spend on the product marketing. So we are, you know, very responsible as a point, you can say kind of responsible and where we spend equal focus on making customer iterate about what this financial jargons are all about and what does it mean to you by availing a loan and what does it mean to you by paying it back on time to get the next loan better and similar focus we also spend on digital marketing, right. So we have the brand campaign, right, we do digital marketing, but at the same time we do a lot of financial literacy. At the same time, we also do all the entire offline, you know, Jing Bang as well. Right, right. Thanks. So Elizabeth quickly, you know, could you please give us some insight into your PGN customer acquisition strategy as well. How it might change when your plans for digital become more aggressive and beyond yours, what do you think is the right mix for this for growing this category. So I think that the requirement for credit is there across age groups, the behavior may be different the usage may be different. They are across age groups, Gen Z millennial, and, you know, beyond that, right, the traditionalists, as we may want to call them. The, the requirement is across metros and many metros, there's a geographical, you know, deepening in terms of the credit requirement, the usage we see difference, the traditionalists use it for larger purchases, right. But I think the willingness in the younger segment, Gen Z and millennial is they are willing to use credit for you live only once right their philosophy is YOLO. So they have a different, different approach to how they want to live their life or kind of purchase decisions they make. And we see them being far more open to credit. So in that sense, target audience wines, I think that we are, we are straddling a larger, you know, a very large audience, where there is a requirement for credit. The other aspect here is of course that, you know, people who are building their credit score, one new to credit some of these EMI cards can be very useful, because you have a pre-approved limit and you can swipe that like a credit or debit card in any store and it automatically converts into EMI, right, you don't have to purchase it and convert it. So it's an EMI card, it's a smart EMI card. And the other aspect of the angle is that, you know, the credit is available on a lot of categories. So some there is a lack of awareness and as an industry, I think it's important to tell everybody on what all I think the big spoke about health appliances are known. There are many, many areas in which you can use some of these products and it's available at point of purchase. So it's across categories, across cities, across age groups, the usage and behavior may be slightly different the way they approach it, but that's really what we see. In terms of how you can get it, you can get it at the store, okay, and at the moment of truth, you can get it there. Or you can, like I said, you can come on to our website and apply for it and, you know, be done. And the other is for our existing customers, it's available on a click on our mobile app. So it's very easy to get your pre-approved limit and you can swipe the card to that extent. And we, our, you know, our objective, while it's trust and transparency communication and I think I've been rightly spoke about hidden charges and some of the consumers and then we spoke about IRR. I think these are terms which are, you know, for customers, they are very, very simple thinking. Can I afford to pay this back? How much is may, what is the catch? So these are some of those things. If you clarify, then there are no friction in the purchase, you know, in the, in the buying system, in the consumer buying system. So if you clarify all of this, and we go with Subkuchi and Maipur. So most of my communication, you know, the communication we put out is on Subkuchi and Maipur, which is just to expand the customer's mind, saying that, you know, don't worry about what you can really afford today. Anything that you really like, then, you know, you can, you need to check if that's available on EMI. It depends on the product, on the brand, on what it is really because the deals keep the, you know, the offers and everything keeps changing. So we encourage customers to just get that awareness that you Subkuchi and Maipur. So that's really the communication objective and we have a good mix of online and offline. And that's it. Thanks. So I think we're running short of time. So I think one last question and maybe quick half a minute per panelist on, you know, any predictions for the BNPL space for the next year or two and Arvind, let's start with you. I think there's enough headroom in the market, but also a lot of players. So do you think where is the space going? Is there going to be consolidation? Is there room for everyone? Yeah, today it's about three and a half, four billion dollars and then about 10 to 12 million users. The prediction is that it will grow to about 45, 50 million dollars by 2026 and almost touch about 100 million users. There is definitely room for different shades of BNPL to grow and it's not a winner take all market is what we believe because there are different consumer segments with different needs and different innovative products will appeal to different consumers. And I think it's just getting started. There's a lot of headroom, as we all know it's an underprivileged, India is an underprivileged country for credit cards, so to say. And BNPL is sort of pushing the envelope on that. And I think it's an exciting journey that we are all sort of part of just getting started. Thanks. Ashwarya, quick take from you. I think, like I said, that's been around for a while. Is this sudden onslaught of new players? Has it been a problem or has it opened up the market and where do you see things going from here? I think that if you have anything, you have 400 million households, I think there's enough room, giant room to play for everybody. So for sure, I think this has just helped. The category will explode like how it has, you know, in the past, every other category that has seen this kind of influx categories just exploded. And I think this, everyone's trying to pretty much solve the same problem and the way at which everyone is coming is just slightly different for some it's cards for some it's a very good digital product for some it's trying to do a bunch of all of it put together for some it's just a smart card split into an EMI. So I think there's enough headroom and I think different people have different ways of consuming credit and they'll just sort of settle into what they think suits their purpose and floats their boat and sort of consume it. But having said that, I think trust is super critical. The reason why you know the Indian financial system is so strong is because there's a bunch of trustworthy brands out there and bunch of trustworthy banks out there, whose fundamentals are very strong. I think that's the one to watch out for in the next five or six years as to you know how the principles of the strong financial ethos in the country, sort of applies to this new age, kind of, you know, online banking trendy space that sort of come out. Right. I think that's what that's the one to wait and watch but no doubt, you know, I think this is like the Robin Hood of the grand equalizer right you know give to the, you know, the poor and the people who cannot afford if it comes if their standard of living moves up because of this I that's what I see happening, you know in the next three to four years and like you said a 34 billion industry today but I think it's more poised to look more like a 40 I think in the next two years, two to three years. So I think that's really what's exciting about the space enough players enough enough room for all of the players to sort of have their share of the pie I think we're very quick closing comments on trends that you see going forward. I actually totally agree with everyone because this is the market that we are going to see this is just started this not the explosive. Okay, to be honest, this is not the explosive this is just the start point. See, I am a card person payment payment industry guy for entire life so when I started selling credit card I used to say credit card actually when I look at it it's a BNPF right that's what I have sold many years back. But today BNPF I just taken a new shape in form but at the same time it's appealing to a customer who otherwise will not get a credit card and at the same time also willing to the customer who already have a credit card as well right. So it's a kind of it's not it's just starting which will explode and will not explore to one segment but explore to both the segments of the customer customers of a credit card customer don't have a credit card as well. It's gonna grow big that's for sure. Is there something more to watch out for I would say yes in the next couple of years we might see regulators coming little differently on this segment because the segment is not opening up so we will see little regulations coming into digital branding and the while white paper is there but you will see regulations coming on the BNPF as well and you'll also see regulation on BNPF reporting but will that hamper the growth know will that know but that will only help the end customer. Right. And Elizabeth if you could please close the session out for us with your closing thoughts on trends. I would say it from the customer's perspective I think there's going to be a lot of credit, but everything to be looked at with real caution, and with some level of responsibility because that is important for the, you know the entire financial it sort of is important for the backbone that everybody approaches credit with fair amount of responsibility, while there will be a lot of options around. And I think for all marketers like everybody said on this thing is to be, you know, as transparent as as very clear to explain to the customer exactly what we're doing, because you do have a very very eager customer on the other end but they must all be guided correctly and I think we have a lot of responsibility as marketers to take the message, build the right kind of awareness or build communicate clearly, so that the customer, as we build a new and very new category which will, like everybody said on this family will explode. I think there should be responsibility on both sides. All right, thanks a lot everyone partner handing back to you. I think we have a shorter time. Absolutely. Thank you so much. What a fabulous discussion that was and thank you for curating it so well. I'd like to humbly thank all our panelists for your time. You definitely stay connected with me. Thank you once again. Thank you everyone because that's connected with you. Thank you.