 Welcome to Interfaith Ministries Summer Series, the dialogue project, vital conversations with our community. For over half a century, three Houston faith leaders have been joining their voices and influence in support of civil rights. Archbishop Joseph Firenza, Rabbi Samuel Karth and Reverend William Lawson found that when they stood together as a multi-faith trio, their presence and voice was more powerful than if any of them spoke out individually. The three friends joined forces in partnership with Interfaith Ministries for Greater Houston to present a virtual discussion on fighting for justice, equality and respect as part of Interfaith Ministries Summer 2020 Series, the dialogue project, vital conversations with our community. This vital one-hour conversation and moment of prayer on racism, civil rights and the struggle for a more just society aired Friday, June 19. And in that June 19th opening conversation, one of the key themes addressed was about our duties to others and our relationship with others. Rabbi Sam Karth noted, while I have my own story and my own identity, my own way of relating to God, I'm also part of the larger story that unites us all as children of God, and I needed to go beyond the confines of my own group. That was going to be an important part of my ministry. It was not enough to focus on the specific issues of my own community, but I needed to relate to the issues that bind us together. Near the end of the conversation, two questions were asked of the trio. How do you feel people of faith can help make this a lasting change? How can people of faith really step out right now and help us make this a change for good? And how would you advise the general public to be an ally for the cause of equal rights for black people and people of color? Today, the Vital Conversations series will explore this intersection of religion and faith, especially in the goals of countering racism and inequality. We welcome the Reverend Dr. Matt Russell and the Reverend Dr. Cleve Tinsley from Project Curate. Project Curate is a nonprofit social impact agency and consultancy that works with religious, academic, and community organizations to address and support collaborative responses to intersectional issues relating to racial justice and inequality. They do so through curriculum development, training and design, consulting and facilitation, research, community building and organizing, public events, and various multimedia interventions. Effective methods for community and civic engagement must be rooted in a vibrant and authentic community where creative and innovative strategies are encouraged and fostered. They seek to sustain and in some cases reconstitute bold and prophetic movements for social change with this conviction. Visit www.projectcurate.org or email info at projectcurate.org for more information. Reverend Dr. Cleve Tinsley IV is a scholar of religion and black studies. He earned his MA and PhD in religion from Rice University, where he concentrated in the study of African American religions. His research employs inter and anti-disciplinary theoretical and methodological approaches and efforts that explore the nature and meaning of black religious struggle and identity in light of the ever-evolving social complexities that shape religious formations and spirituality in the life of African Americans today. He's a visiting research fellow in the religion and public life program at Rice University, a committed community activist, organizer and ordained and often transgressive Baptist minister who holds master of divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary. He has extensive experience as an organizer, institution builder, manager, and consultant for churches, community organizations, and educational nonprofit organizations across the country. The Reverend Dr. Matthew Russell is currently on staff at Chapelwood United Methodist Church, his co-founder of Iconoclast Artists, and his assistant professor of recovery ministry at Fuller Theological Seminary. Prior to this, he was on faculty at Duke Divinity School as professor of theology and community development. In 2013, he completed a two-year postdoctoral fellowship at the University of Cambridge in their psychology and religion research group where he explored redemptive narratives and models of the church's ministry of reconciliation in urban settings. While there, he was a tutor at Cambridge Theological Federation and on staff at St. Edward's King and Martyr Congregation. He received his master of divinity from Fuller Theological Seminary and completed his PhD at Texas Tech University in 2010. The Dialogue Project is an initiative of interfaith ministries for Greater Houston, Houston's oldest interfaith service organization with dialogue, collaboration and service, and the strength of shared beliefs as our mission. We carry our work out through four core programs, Meals on Wheels, Refugee Services, Volunteer Houston, and Interfaith Relations and Community Partnerships. To learn more about our interfaith engagement work, email us today at IRCP at imgh.org and please support us at imgh.org slash donate slash IRCP. I'm the Rev. Gregory Hahn. I'm the director of interfaith relations and education and I will be your host today and that kind of concludes the opening for a and we'll get right into the conversation with Matt and Cleve. Cleve, let me start with you. And or again, the both of you. I'm wondering if the first question can be, can you tell us just a little bit more about project curate and how it came to be. I think more appropriate and probably should start with Matt, I can talk about how we sort of have transitioned. But Matthew Russell really was a brainchild of what's called project curate leasing name and it's earlier instantiation as it relates to prison pipeline a lot of issues with immigration, but also a key tie to how we've come together so I'll yield to him, but I want to say that he has an important part as it relates to the conversations about theology and tackling issues of inequality I think is important before I come in and talk more about it. Yeah. First of all, I just want to say what an honor it is to be here with with you and Greg and just in this conversation, both with you and with Cleve it's it's a joy so we find it to be a deep pleasure and honor to be here. So project curate really emerged out of an impetus for how as Houston was getting is getting larger and larger. How do we create bridges across divides. And so, when I returned to Houston I had been in Houston for a long time as a pastor left in my PhD came back, not not thinking I was going to be coming back to Houston but came back to Houston and in the midst of that was getting to know some folks at Rice University at the time particularly some folks that were working on the kinder report the area report and one of the things that they had begun to discuss internally was the fact that as Houston got larger. One of the issues that was happening is that they were going to have to figure out how to bridge divides across gaps across these kind of divisions and I felt like one as a local pastor that was really a particular call of the church. As it moves towards the world and love that it bridges divides. And so curate kind of came out of that impetus at the beginning there was a there was a lot of things happening with immigration migration and unaccompanied minors and all those things that we got involved with and we began to really collect and begin to be in relationship with a very diverse group of churches across the city. And in that place, begin to do kind of some co curriculum what would it look like if we came together from across the city and began to both understand whether there's neighborhoods understand the histories behind those neighborhoods what divided us and there's ways that we might collaborate out of that we did that for two or three years before I met cleave and that both that work got blown up and got deeper all in the same move. But in parallel cleave and some of the things that he was involved in running parallel although we did not meet each other until until an event happened within the city that necessitated that but I'll yield to cleave and let him talk about some of that as well. Super thanks Matt. So, so yeah I think what Matt what that leads up to was really July 2016 so four years ago really July 16 2016 churches across the city of Houston specifically, but really across the nation really began to become stirred by Fernando cost deal. Out in sterling Dallas police officers right there was again, uprisings or listen concerns about racial justice in this country and there was this need especially among religious communities to say there's a need for us to come together and do something differently. Here's where Matt. Really, I think yielded to something larger than him right I think he was attuned to that that moment as a spiritual moment and said, we need to do something differently yes. I think we've been doing some good things in the city. But we have seen to miss this and we need to make more room to make this happen. As Matt said, for about two years we've been working parallel to each other in the city I was involved in moving for black lives in Houston, Texas. I was leveraging my relationship with Rice University to sponsor certain symposiums about black social life and how to bring together activists and artists and scholars together to talk about the nature and meaning of black life in the United States. And when Alton Sterling came around. I also was a participant and a member of the United Methodist Church in Houston, as well as a minister in that city, and it came about they wanted to do this visual in the city. And that was interesting about it I had really not engaged theologically for about four or five years without really concerned my own studies, but at this visual. Matt was a part of the organizing team and he said, you know what we need to sit down and listen this time, and some kind of way. I was invited to kind of be an introductory speaker in that series to my relationship with other ministry night by trip. So that night happened and then from there Matt said hey. Listen, I've been thinking about where to go next, would you be interested in helping me think together we both really just went out and spend some time together one afternoon and thought about the possibilities and also the perils of that happening. What kind of risks would be involved for both of us to do that. And what outcome we really wanted. And from there, we kind of start making a transition, we both were open to both I think willing to be more palatable there and say, Hey, it's going to require some adjustments on my part for me. I'm not going to be willing to engage theoretically more robustly with the a lot of language, right. And he was like, Hey, I'm going to be willing to deconstruct some of the things that inhabit what I feel religious ideologies kind of been like habit in certain ways. So that's how we kind of began starting this project and it kind of evolved from there 2016 and since then we've just gone through a whole bunch of changes since we've been active and or an interested and watch what project curate for the last couple of years and one of the interesting things and one of the reasons I wanted to have you as dialogue partners is what you're kind of describing is very much an interior journey as much as an exterior journey as well that those those things are together. And here we are and with our summer series and vital conversations with our community coming in the wake of the death of George Floyd with that large kind of with with the three amigos and now this the second episode. And again, one of the things that was brought up is this notion of allyship and I wanted to spend some time with with y'all trying to unpack that word a little bit so the idea of allies has been talked about more and more it's probably been talked about for for many years but really I think through after after the death of George Floyd has even more entered into the public consciousness at a different level. To you what does that word mean to be an ally. And what would you say are the strengths and the weaknesses of that word right now as we talk about allyship. I yield to Matt to start about how he thinks about it I'm happy to talk about some of the weaknesses and possibilities of it. Yeah, so I think first of all being and I'll give a definition of always my understanding of that and then kind of we can, we can talk about some of the issues that I have with that as well but I think being an ally first begins with the recognition that there's a problem of racism, particularly not exclusively though the problem of anti black racism. And so to be a white ally, recognize the problem, educates oneself in the white community about that problem denounces the problem in all of its manifestations is committed to be a part of the solution and reading the culture the nation the community of racism anti black racism in particular. Now I have some some issues around that but that's how I would kind of get into that and define, define the work. I think, I think the term has both I think, effective possibilities and also meanings but also like, I want to acknowledge certain traditions of critique of the term as well so on the one hand. I think our life we would use these maritime analogies. The first one who's really willing to kind of get into the war with someone right willing to lose their lives side by side for a cause that may they may not have necessarily initiated right in the struggle for racial justice and equality issues of immigration and allies someone typically from, from a larger power group that decides to join alongside others in their struggle against that right now I raise issues of critique because I don't think there's one way to think about I think, you know, the strong criticism sides also not necessarily always helpful but I think the black feminist and also black radical critique against this. The critique is about why are we using this term black allies on this these are things especially that black women and queer folks have been doing for centuries and for ages and we have to like have ascribe them this term outline so there's a way in which the term ally can be taken on as some kind of badge of honor, especially by from folks in power, but I also think it's still a helpful way to think through some things now radical freedom movement prefer terms like comrades or co conspirators those who are willing to do things like that, but I still I still don't think you know, need to throw away the term I just think that needs to be more healthy conversation around what the implications are that time that term are for folks a lot of folks use the term ally as a way to get into getting some kind of cultural cash a from it. And so there's difference between the term and those who try to thickly live into what that might mean really ally ship means being willing to suffer loss for cars cause that may not be your own right. So that's how I think about the term a bit about it a bit more. Okay, also I think it relates to the process of decentering ones self within power to to stand in a place of social transformation with that so that transformation can be possible it's it's a, there's almost a prophetic summonsing to that space. And we can, as Cleave said I think, I think that's right on there's, we can talk about the language and parse those words but the, there's an event that happens in the name of those words that we're trying to get at that would say that it's important to move towards that, that space of decentering ones self particularly in positions of power to, to be converted by a social transformation, a social imagination that is rooted in a, an alternative way of being in the world of our social relationships ordered differently in the world. I think that's what stands at the, at the, at the center of that. Matt, could you say just a little more. Again, one of the reasons that I wanted to start with a conversation with with y'all is this this deep kind of theological conviction as well and, and words such as transformation. And could, could you say a little bit more about how are you using the term decentered because that's I think that's a really, really important concept in our often, I would argue narcissistic even solipsistic world in which we live. Sure. You know, Cleveland, I've talked about a lot about this together and it's been really helpful to, first of all, to be in a, in a, in a set of conversations of the last four years with both Cleveland community that were a part of really where I understand decentering to come from in my own tradition is this, this, this word canosis this word of self giving of giving up. There's a sense in which we are captivated by different ideas of power which really, I think in the end of the day are our security systems, and they are controlled systems. As you can see within the Christian tradition, this other move from domination, these domination systems to amicus systems where there is much more, it's, it's relationships are, are much more centered and so power from a white perspective or from a centering that is given up for an imagination of a world that is different is transformed is held differently within its, within its construction of relationship and I think we see that all the way throughout in the life of Jesus and then I think Paul picks that up and begins to deconstruct this kind of understanding of power all the way through. So the decentering for me really is a theological paradigm that centers within really the person of Jesus and this canosis is giving up of power for something for different world that's based in religion or based in relationship rather and this, this movement I see in the New Testament, where he says no longer do you call me Lord but you call me friends this movement away from that that alters everything this, this, but we're still deeply invested in domination systems. And I think that's why the decentering is such an important move that for me really is one of a process of discipleship and a deeply spiritual move at the center of it. Thank you. And again, I appreciate the time. I think talking about words, the words that we that we use are just so important and I think in this this time of social unrest and I think at least the way I see it more and more people willing to be involved in larger movements fighting racism. I think there's also this incredible need to understand more of the history and also to be very careful of the of the language that that we use. The other thing that that that you bring up is is this this notion of transformation and this notion of multi layeredness as well that that there's a lot that as well that's going on beyond a protest or a march that is part of this I think the social transformation that you all have been that have been talking about What do you see as the impediments to allyship when it comes to fighting racism in your in your experience over, you know, your years of ministry but particularly over the last four years. I mean, I think for me, impediments to be I think there is always. I think it's important that we're talking about the importance of doing one's homework as it relates to language, but also how to really orient oneself to any role that they take on right so really these terms ally is not something that we've been grappling and for the last four years, but we ourselves have had to think about what that means for us to be an ally, not just Matt being a white man and ally was black. What does it mean for us right that who exists in a kind of male kind of like hetero dominance what does it mean for us to kind of then think about our own way that we are an ally with women with queer communities with other communities of color with all marginalized black indigenous and poor folk. And so that's why how we tried to also engage in a kind of religious leadership. Was it mean for us to decenter ourselves as it relates to that. So, if folks have, who've been with us in during with us last four years might see that. Hey, Matt was doing this. So it was a Cleveland Matt doing some things and then it kind of stress even further than we had to further kind of decenter ourselves and our own leadership model and say, we got to make sure that we have other representation of those who are leading and we can't claim to be allies right for say our partners who are from other communities as well if we're not kind of also do the self critical work of ally ship to make sure it's at point on this. A lot of times folks use the term ally as a way of gaining cultural cash in and do some other things other self interest, and we just think that term is impediments are also some of the ways that it can, it can, I think make you grow in other words if we if you understand yourself properly as an ally, you also perceive that to be a call for you to grow and change and transform to really do this. You know Christ him, you know, Philippians chapter two right and empty oneself into a way of becoming that allows you to really be effective in the struggle for social change. And I think I ally also has to one of the impediments of allies, ally ship is those who might self describe themselves as allies might fall into the trap of thinking that they got it all together. Right. I for one have never identified myself as being an ally with any with any community. I would rather receive an invitation for them to kind of join me at work, and I am what they call me, but for me to take on that title. I think sometimes it's just another way of kind of engaging in this work in the more immediate stance of humility that allows to kind of be about that's very good. Yeah, thank you. Matt, do you have a do you want to add anything to that. You know, just maybe I think that's that's right I think labeling oneself as an ally, sometimes can be a bit problematic with particularly with the community I think it's the community that you're that in some ways you're adopted by that gets to name you. There's a naming that happens in that that I think that's important that you don't name yourself, but you either way you move the way you can port yourself within the work and in the relationships. The way that that happens is there's a naming process that I think is really important. I think some of the impediments to ally ship sometimes there can be a fickleness about the work and that's often in times like there. There can be this kind of great awakening, but then the way that whiteness often works or the way that power often works is that that it will, it will say how long do I have to hold myself this way before I can go back to normal. You know, and so there's a there's a fickleness in this and so I think that that the kind of ally ship the way we're using that word at least cleave and I are now has got to be rooted in an alternative word or maybe a companion word called solidarity. And I think it's got to be the movement from these performative kind of works to this often quieter deeper behind the scenes. Giving oneself to the work for decades. I think that's really important often allies focus on the interpersonal. And so there's a real need for friendship within that work and often that's just another way of centering whiteness in a way that you're acting like you're decentering it. And so, I think that what solidarity does within that movement is is deeply committed to dismantling structures within within within racism and within inequity. I think for me one of the things I'm hearing is that one of the deep concerns is this kind of work in anti racism and ally ship is open very much to self deception of thinking you're doing good work when you're really doing something that I think you're comfortable with. And so I think that notion of humility as well as vulnerability I think is another word that would come to mind. I think the other thing that you bring up is this notion of community that this is done something, an identity that is bestowed upon you by a community, which is a little antithetical sometimes to the individualism that we have been taught over the over over the decades if not the centuries of, of understanding our identity coming out of community kind of the, you know, because, because we are I am, instead of the because I am that that I helped to bring about the, I guess the other concerns that you that you bring up, especially in this day and age is watching the concerns about the commodification and the domestic, the domestic, the domestic, the domestic, the domestic, the domesticity of anti racism work. I'm sure you have as well as many people who are watching getting emails from different corporations staying corporation X stands with Black Lives Matter corporation Y stands against racism, as if they're trying to again this cashier commodifying what often I would think is is is is difficult work. I've, do you, is there anything in that kind of rambling that you want to pick up on it all before I go to the next next question. Yeah, so I have some thoughts about it on the one hand, I think it's, it's positive that, at least not in my lifetime, I've never seen as many people, persons and or, or their organizations recognize that there is a need to do something right here friendly and so even if folks are falling. They're falling forward as my friend Matt would often say right like you so my thing is like there's nothing you can do right anyway, if you're trying to be a ally you're going to part of being an ally or being someone who wants to see some type of change, meaning means not being afraid of messing up right so any corporation that makes a statement. They just need to know they're going to be subject to criticism because what persons from communities who have been suffering. All this time are looking for is to follow up to the statement right we we appreciate the elegant words, but what persons are really looking to now is what substantive changes are you willing to make. As it relates to that we have project here a friends that have received numerous inquiries and many consulted opportunities around this moment after George Floyd. And what we say to folks who contact us is quite simple listen, we're happy you contacted and we're happy to engage you in conversation, what you need to decide before we go forward is, at what level, are you willing to go right. Are you trying to address it internally to begin having some conversations, or are you really trying to do some kind of policy changes to the way that you're comprised as a as a group. What you offer in programming all of these are different kinds of questions. And from my perspective I'm like I'm okay if you're okay with just acknowledging where you are and how far you're willing to go, because if you're willing to go all the way sometimes that may mean in the long run not right now while it's hot right it's okay. It's great right now to say black lives matter me it's okay for everybody to say that now. But a couple of months from now that may fade and Matthew that have been around where that has happened 2016 was really popular, but folks to be about racial justice. 2018 2020 or so, it wasn't so we lost a lot of money we lost a lot of opportunities, lost some friends all kind of stuff right now is how to get everybody loves us again for a little minute. Right. So the question becomes, how far you willing to take it. It's okay I mean release your statement but then be willing to stand up to the criticism to be held to the fire for following up for that that's something I would say is a follow up to whatever you want to say about it. And I would, I would just, you know, absolutely agree out. Let's just say if black lives matter, then, then they need to matter at the top of the organizational structure. And so it just doesn't matter. We're not after this the movement is just not after, let's kill less people. It's a restructuring of our social relationships as it relates to power and access to that to equity, and to fair housing and education and equity and food. All of these things are at the bottom of this. So the movement for black liberation is tied up in the movement for really the liberty movement of all of us, that I would say is within my own kind of Christian tradition is that the heart of this brown Jewish liberator that wasn't just handing out big max but was talking about the oppressive power of the empire. And so at some, at some form, some level this being able to say black lives matter is a creed innocence. And the same creed that if Jesus is Lord, then Caesar can't be Lord. And so there's a creed that is bound up in this that says there's an alternative power structure that must be opened up to the world. And I would want to root that in my own Christian tradition is in the in the person of Christ. That's a good segue into kind of the next set of questions. Again, the reason that I always value our conversations are that you're, you know, your community oriented, your your your theologians and pastors as well. So I know that the three of us as pastors come primarily a lot of a Christian context, but your but your but your view is much more capacious than just Christianity, both as as theologians but also as as scholars so thinking more about religion in general and I'll ask both of these questions because I guess they can be looked at as two sides of the coin. What is the role of religion or belief in fighting racism. And in your experience where does religion get in the way of effective anti racist work. Yeah, those are those are great questions and I think it's helpful to think about it too I mean I think as a so as a pragmatist thinker I always say religion is what it does right it's different in sort of community but essentially a religion at bottom just refers to the ties that bind right what is it that binds us as a community what shared solidarities and commitments we have and then how do we objectify those commitments create some ritual behaviors around them, some narratives that shape us all that kind of stuff. Here I'm speaking sociologically right right exactly about what it means right now we can have further conversation. So religion then sociologically speaking has some problems right whenever one begins to kind of have to address problems that lie outside of what that community might be comfortable thinking about it has what I call both a sinister and sincere side to it sincere side of religion is this right. It's about creating common bonds and unity. The sinister side of it tries to in the dangerous side of religion is that because it's so deeply held within these myths and narratives and traditions that are deeply personal to us right. We fail often time to disentangle our allegiances from the from the power arrangement that deeply kind of like make these things a bit so at it right so in a sense right, we want to unify and universalize everything. And so, especially for those of us in Abrahamic or Christian traditions or whatever we have a set a set of core tenants that we like to subscribe to certain rituals that we have that we say, we're all in this family together this happens so we ends up having to have more narrow conversations about issues of racial inequality sexual inequality all this kind of stuff is harder for us to do that why because we like to just quote from a meta narrative and say, no the real issue is we just not not right with our God or right with our tradition. If we can do that, we like to worry about this other stuff. What that fails to recognize however, is that all of our universal arrangements are regardless and not because they're human institutions they benefit some people the most. Right. There are always some folk at the type of our hierarchies, no matter how sincere we try to be. We have to engage in a constant work of saying, in what ways then is our religion as it has been constructed. Really done so in a way that benefits some over and against others and left we're willing to constantly do this self critical work of saying, you know what, historically we moved in this way but you know there's some ways that we can learn from how different movements are happening. And what what mad night our colleagues have recognized is that they're pretty much just two gaps that we we tend to feel that we have rich traditions where we're able to do what convene folks together like we're doing now. We've been given this liberty as it relates to cultural authority folks want to listen to what we want to say, but what we often fail as religious leaders is we don't go a step further and learn from what movements are happening and learn how to create newer tactics and strategies that don't that are not necessarily outside of our tradition they've always existed. We just not have always listened to how to better manipulate those for the times that are present right now. We've been so busy of trying to lay stakes to our own authority that we haven't been able to go back to our conversation about our life ship move ourselves out of the way. Right. How do we create room and then grow because the truth of the matter is the more room we create for others. It challenges me to become more mature to develop more as a leader, because I have to be stretched. I also grow when I place my authority in a misty authority of others and figure out how to make that work and be best for everybody else. Matt. Gosh, there's a lot there. It's you know it's it's it's why I often often quote my preaching professor Peter Gomes who said again, a surplus of virtues more dangerous than a surplus of vice because virtue is not constrained by the bounds of conscience. And see other reason I tell people I study religion because at a certain level I trust all of you all I study religion because I don't trust any of you all because of both those sincere and sinister sides of religion. Again, kind of to pick up on that again, at least what you've seen as both the how religion the religious impulse is both can can can further and also hinder anti racist work. I mean, I mean, when I think just of the etymology of religion is to bind to connect to it's a ligament right and so in some ways when religion is is acting within its own life force of impetus there's this this desire for these things that have been fractured to be to be bound to be healed to be connected. Right. And so partly the way that religion should be moving is to is to provide a prophetic utterance to that type of vision of the future together. When religion becomes a force as is clear as saying the sinister side of that where it's it's really about an institutional empowered or embodied empowerment of a particular group of people it it as we you know don't have to go back too far in history to say it just it creates it creates a genocide, you know, we're living in that type of religion gone bad in a sense in the wake of that. But then what we're experiencing I believe right now the justifications of slavery the justification of goods and services held in the hands of a few why there's many that suffer and poor. And so I think there's a call to that that that a new imagination that might be birthed out of religion that we have to be faithful to if we're going to to move forward in this. Yeah, I think that's the that's the, I think that's the side that oftentimes doesn't get talked about we often run into and those of us on this call especially interested. And this thing that often over which is the hopeful side of religion other than the nation. Yeah, the truth of the matter is to sincere and great thing about all of our traditions is the ability it has to inspire hope and bravery and patients across time and trials with all this stuff. I just think you're like, we in James said it doesn't seem like there's something wild in the universe we're at work at and we all have to whether we have our atheisms and whatever stuff is beautiful right so like their ways of Oh, if we look at our narratives look at all of our myths we look at the stuff is not only beautiful but inspires hope and so I think our communities. Oh, we shouldn't let go of that we shouldn't also allow our community to be critiqued so much that we don't say it now hold on a minute that it ain't all bad I mean we've done some good in history right yeah we're tied up with colonialism Euro Christianity you got some stuff going on with it but think about the creative side of the religious imagination right the way in which now we inspire people the way that we still continue to convene the way in which at bottom just like you were saying Reverend Han is like there are there are there are aspects of the religious consciousness that's not subject to the humanities and social sciences right there's a way of moving of being part of a larger cultural zeitgeist that can't be always accounted for neatly and just simply our secular humanist kind of movements right and so I think all these things can mail together as to reason why like I still remain hopeful as a cleric so to speak as well as a critical theory some things about these things because the truth of the matter is the great thing about the religious consciousness is that Matt and I are friends we're not just allies in this work together but there's something more meaningful and deep for us at least that makes this work worth the stringuous effort that we try to and that's a good way again another good segue into the next set of questions as we've been talking very importantly about some of the theoretical but as I think someone that said there's nothing more practical than a good theory into just some of your experiences and I'm seeing some of the questions coming through how do we break down barriers of racing class to build a people centered movement for fun for lasting transformation. What do you what do you all recommend to help educate people about this important message. What have you found to be effective. What have you in your experiences what have you been found to be effective ways to be an ally in fighting racism. You know I would say the root of that goes back to some of the things we were talking about earlier in in that for me and I could only tell you know my story and I'm sure that there's a thousand different ways of this kind of working itself out with really and strength is that being being grafted into work within this city of work I was already doing when I met cleave it broadened it and it deepened it because at some level because of where I was the framework in which I was born in really my paradigm could only see and in terms of like the jahari window there were things that I could not see until I was brought into relationship with another community so I was working deeply within the immigrant community mainly Latinx community deeply within prison reform and prison systems and when I was brought into relationship and all those dynamics were there but I was still operating out of more a paradigm of let's say reconciliation rather than solidarity right and there was a movement that I was still having that was moving towards kind of more service rather than justice where I was I was still invested in being a really good white person that was doing really good work and there is in a sense of giving up of in the movement being grafted in with this constructive work that cleave and I are part of now I think is important to do both deconstructive and then constructive work that we moved into now there is there's a sense in which coalition building and those relationships are now all bound up together the movement and the work is slow it's it's because it's non hierarchical there is you attend to these relationships in particular ways that are very important and because of that the work is is slow there is an honesty that is a part of that and an accountability that is a mutual really an exquisite mutual that's a part of that that I would I would suggest and I would found that within those collaborations was kind of collaborative work together is where I'm finding there to be a lot of juice for me because one I'm not alone. I'm grafted into a new set of histories that I'm learning and and it's confronting my own worldview constantly. Yeah, do you let me ask another kind of practical or more practically oriented question as well. What, like, let's say a church that's just as an example comes to you and this has probably happened saying we want as a community to be involved in anti racist work. What, what are church what can churches do maybe that we can spend some time on sort of the what what can be done, recognizing a lot of the conversation has been about a relationship and and transformation and solidarity. But what can what can communities do to to join into the work of anti racism. I think there are, you know, there are multiple ways to to do it. I mean, I mean, first it depends on the church that's asking, right. Public questions come into bear. Am I talking about a middle brown white church in the middle of the suburbs am I talking about lack of a Latinx church in an urban area. There are various ways that church who wants to be committed to work of inequality and against injustice can participate. So for instance, like you said beginner and in addition to thinking about these issues I also am a practitioners part of a church now that's trying to do the work not only of convening right, but doing the work of community building and organizing really really and that what we find is that when it comes to organizing for the sake of supporting and advocating for more vulnerable communities. A lot of churches don't know where to begin with that unless they're already one of those churches in those communities right. So one of the things that we're we're trying to do is those who are self selecting from our religious community who are interested in this kind of work. We teach them how to dwell with right to be that embodiment, whereas not about proselytizing is not about kind of got you in the end it's just really about learning about that community kind of being that requires that you establish some relationships of trust with these communities. But then more than that there are specific missions that you can have coming out of your church that explicitly is about organizing around these justice issues it requires that you build transformational leadership to do that and so their service way mad not do it as practitioner now mad at his church for instance, they're doing a bunch of programs around the issues where he just happens to be there. He can help them do that that way that mad not both as practitioners are involved in local context to make that work work, but our work through project curate to fill another gap so for instance you may not have either the capacity or the time as a pastor, or maybe the support in your congregation to really do a large program around it. But their organization like Lily Lily Foundation Lewisville who allows us to create a structure that folks can join a program we can kind of begin to talk about these issues and help them develop strategies to really be involved. Again, this is explicitly with racial justice and equality worth right so you have to be if you're concerned about issues of inclusion and equity and racial justice that's a particular kind of work and prophetic calling. That's different you got to recognize that every church may not be called to that work right. And so, and I think that's okay. There are ways that you still can participate a lot of people churches do social outreach, but the work of struggling for racial justice to work of struggling against issues of an equity and justice is a particular bit oftentimes depending on the charismatic figure who's leader of the pastor or the institutional authority behind that, but there are a variety of ways that folks can get in enlarge or small ways there's no one way to tackle it. But if you're interested, your folks are interested. I think there's a bunch of creative ways to kind of get involved. Okay, super. Other Matt, any other kind of best practices. Again, what I'm hearing is that there are best practices but a lot of those come out of the context of trust and community building and you've got to be in relationship. I'm wondering though, again, thinking about best practices at least in your experience for anti racist work. What are there some that seem to keep emerging that you want to build that that cleave has mentioned. You know, one of the things I particular the time that we're in right now, and I can speak to kind of my own context of being involved in white communities in a white church is that it's really important for the white church to do its own work for a lot of in a lot of ways that the the time that we're in is incumbent upon white folks to deconstruct this world that we have not had to that we have been able to live within and the question is is how far do are we committed to the work of transformation and the mutual flourishing of all people. And so I would say that that because of that there's an educational. There's kind of an education kind of arc that that the the white folks need to go on and I, you know, I'm glad to be able to get on Amazon and have a bunch of books sold out right now because it seems like people are doing that work, you know, and educated themselves. I think a lot of times what will end up happening is the white white folks will come to their black colleagues and ask them to educate them, you know, and that it's deeply problematic where I think this is the work that the white folks in terms of allies and using that word needs to turn towards each other, keep each other accountable do that work together and then move forward in that work. And so that's one of the best practices. Let me take a couple of questions I have two kind of closing aspirational questions to as we come into near three o'clock. It's a hard question because I used to think of myself not so long ago as a young person but I guess I'm not how. What do you recommend to help educate young people about this important message of anti racist, you know, of anti racism work. When you're thinking of that quote unquote next generation I don't even know if that's the right way to think about to talk about it but but that but there is a coming generation of young people in their 20s are in college or teenagers, thinking about when they take on that that next mantle of authority. And which they can have right now in so many ways of course what is what is your message to young people. Yeah, I'm not sure if I have a particular message for young people I think for me. I'm learning a lot from them. They're at the front lines of this stuff right now. I think Matt and I with we're honest we can explicitly say we were gen Xers right so we're, we learned a lot from the previous generation of millennials and you to see now on the page of Gen Z years on a line really taking these steps further what we can learn from them so there's two things I think from one week what we can learn from them are the tactics and strategies that are necessary for now right. The millennials and Gen Zers who out there leading these movements now have done something quite effective in the age of social media, especially with more coverage that they've done is they've created a more level playing a longer can one religious player extend up and speak for everybody right folks can now disagree with you, and now challenge your authority in ways that they couldn't prior to right. And so things about you know being not hierarchical things about collaboration things about consensus building, we're learning all these stuff now from the younger generation leaders. I think younger, younger folks can learn from us and generations who are older than us, as it relates to kind of institution building and some organizing strategy what it means to do that right because how to sustain movements for instance. So what we see oftentimes in young groups they have the passion and energy and the and the capacity, some of the most gifted folks I've met, and I learned from are from Gen Z and millennials, where I can see like some areas for improvement and is like how to sustain these things right, not to just pop up for a year or so here or six months or so here, but then not not continue. Madden eyes work has been figuring out models and ways to sustain that work and part of that admittedly comes from being caught up in a large and neoliberal capitalistic structure where madden I have had experiences learning how to do that right. That's the aspect I think we can both learn from each other on is how to then make our organizing work be more sustaining right and I think those were younger folks can learn from a whole range of activists and leaders out there like the three religious figures you had on before us in your last talk. But I also think we could be opening to learning together with the young folk on what's needed at this time for us to really be. Yeah, super. Yeah. I'm a little sorry. Lift a name, Adrian Marie Brown for instance, yeah, are really a young activists or millennial activists now that a lot of us have learned from merchant strategy. Hope that she has out now that persons are really doing amazing work, but she's not the only one there folk who are in Chicago leaders and activists who are doing amazing work right now. So it sounds like that we need to be in very input in a position of learning of not know in a not saying that we have all the answers. But what not letting that paralyze us from moving forward or Matt to use your term that that cleave used a falling forward as well. I would use is like mutual exchange right we got to place ourselves in social spaces that allow there for to be mutual exchange and that has been the problem I think for those of us who are clerics and part of religious institutions. We want to control the terms. We also want to control the kind of exchange we happen. And so yeah we want to have a conversation with folks who are out there doing radical work. We need to engage in this kind of nobody would disagree with that. But the terms on which we do that we would disagree. No, I'm not willing to speak outside of my own language community or to go to a different spaces and go to them to do this I want them to do it on my terms which you got to create and that's all the work we do around our curricula and cohort building and project curate is all about that. It's about loosening some of those strangles on being able to create mutual exchange from different communities. There's a, I want to throw this question out here I don't know if we did it's such a big one but maybe we could pick this up in another conversation often when we start talking about anti racism work in the church or in faith communities it gets quickly labeled as political. And how do we, how do we resist that using the language of the church or the language of theology I don't know if you've got a quick couple of minute kind of riff on that, or your own experiences with oh we don't talk about that we're separation of church and politics or that's going to that's going to be controversial. How can this be a theological I some ways a theological conversation, more than a political conversation or maybe the real quest answer is why are people seeing those as two different things. I would just say that within my, my own experience is that there's a tendency right now to, in some ways reduce things down to to a knob and I think that there is a pushback against some more complex thinking. And I think there's a complexity and the work that we're doing it doesn't mean that you have to be have a higher education to do this work, but to be able to hold multiple tensions together seems to be necessary and in this moment. And so, when we say political what we're usually saying is that we're usually talking about Democrat or Republican, you know, we're talking about, you know, this, this, these, these great divides and when, when I'm understanding the word political this kind of the, this, this, this movement of governance or philosophical kind of overlays that are for the benefit of the people and for the good of the whole and to the common good. There's a sense in which then religion you place that within that that core paradigm of love and service and self giving and equity and these things that we've been talking about today, then it does become political but it doesn't become this kind of left right up down. It becomes this this organizing principle that sits at the heart of one's community that says, whether that's Dr. King's work about the beloved community, that's the way that cleave has been describing kind of this mutual collaboration and these mutuality of relationships within that, but we're looking for an alternative way of relating to to each other and that will have, obviously will have political implications and social implications that any category that we can kind of put over that, because that's, that's what transformation is is about it will be for the transformation of the whole. Thank you. I've come on up here on near the top of the hour. Let me let me ask this final question it's an aspirational question. What, and I think it echoes a reflection from earlier in the call on our conversation. What, what gives you hope. What are you hopeful for at this moment. For me, I always describe it as, you know, my, as it relates to all my vocational aspirations and doings are really related to my commitment and service to my values right so for me really value community above and beyond. I mean, if you can find one or two really meaningful significant relationships that add meaning enrich your life and it's amazing and in this struggle I think for justice and equality. I think I found at bottom. The most sincere kinds of relationships and that I've had in my life that are deeply fulfilling to me right and so all I would say the work of racial equality and justice is hard. You also run into your people if you're committed to it right you run into those folks who really add significance and meaning to your life and ways that you never thought possible. I'm only child so when I was a younger, younger boy always wanted brothers and sisters right, and I can say over the last five or six years or so. Madden I have been able to run into a community of folk. Folks in fact I considered my siblings here in in Houston, Texas from my community, and Matt as well never thought I'd have a white brother but he is like a blood brother to me now right and five, six years ago you to ask me I would never thought that possible fact no one who knows me would have thought that would have been possible. And so I just, I just think you know my hope is the kind of running into like minded folk shows me that this is possible. If it can happen with a small collection of people. It's possible that can happen to a larger group of folks right. So my only goal is to put myself in social circles that it is happening and we're realizing that. And if we can keep on expanding that circle further and further. And hey, we may dial for maybe somebody else to kind of continue that work as well. Thanks. Matt, what gives you hope. I recently heard Willie Jennings say that hope is a discipline. It's a discipline and so I think they're particularly than the African American community within this work, because there is a lot of. There's a lot of discouragement there's a lot of things we're up against. Remember a couple years ago, Cleveland I sitting together and we, we really drawing on the strength of the civil rights movement some of the folks there. Remembering Vanu hammer and Ella Baker and Medgar Evers and just the way that they put themselves in to the struggle Ed King, you know, and the way that they paid the price for that. And I think that Cleave is right I would just underline that that the hope I have is not necessarily that the efforts that I'm going to put in are going to change anything that question I'm asking myself is, can I remain faithful. Cleave is in breaking bread with folks that know me that I can, I can break down with and, and that we can rise up with. And I think that that's the hope on finding to continue to do the work because the work is can be lonely. And also invigorating the work can can feel like that, or moving backwards, but I think what's moving me forwards is this collection of relationships that that really haven't grafted me in and adopted me. Super. Thank you. Thank you both of you thank you Matt and Cleave for your time. And again visit www.projectcurate.org for more information about their work here on our side email us at IRCP at imgh.org for more information and especially to receive information about our third episode in the summer series, which will focus on the next project and the fight for respect and justice. Visit imgh.org to support programs like the dialogue project, our faith in our city series and a host of other programs that seek to build respect via interreligious and intercultural engagement and education. We also have other summer programs including our dinner dialogue on August 11 and we'll be rolling out our fall program series in early August, much of which will be virtual. Dr. Matt Russell, Dr. Cleave Tinsley. Project curate thank you for your work and thanks for your time and for this conversation. I'm grateful to both of you. Thanks for having this man is a joy to be here thanks thanks until we see each other again be brave be kind find ways to engage and keep in touch. Thanks everyone and have a good day.