 HBC Dujas Radio, welcome back to another fascinating discussion on higher education in the historically black college university context. Today, we are privileged to be joined by Dr. Melanie Carter, she is an associate professor in the Howard University, new and in burgeoning program in a PhD in higher education leadership and policy studies where she is an associate professor here to talk with us today about the program and the benefits it yields for training the new cohort of leaders executives and decision makers in the HBC sphere. So Dr. Carter did indeed a pleasure to have you on this morning. Thank you so much, Mr. Carter, I much appreciate it. So Howard's PhD program in higher education leadership, right? So if you've been following HU on Twitter, a lot of what you've seen lately or a big tweet that got a lot of love online has been Dr. Frederick, Wayne Frederick, President Howard, talking about the work that he does in his boardroom and some of the engaging discussions he has with some of the PhD students in this program. But for those who have not heard of it, can you describe a little bit about the program and why it's so important for Howard to have a stake in developing the future president's CEOs and other kind of executives in the HBC sphere? Okay, that's an important question. The program, the Higher Education Leadership and Policy Studies program, the first cohort was admitted in the fall of 2018. And so we're completing our second full academic year of the program. And so it's really great and exciting to have the opportunity to really be a part of repairing the next leadership of HBCU. The program was designed specifically to prepare people for higher education leadership roles across institutional type, but specifically at HBCUs or minority serving institutions. And so we know that at Howard we have a long history of preparing leaders and a whole host of areas and certainly in education as well. And we know that it's critically important that people who work at HBCUs and support our students and our institutions are prepared to do just that, not solely in traditional ways, but also understanding the contemporary opportunities and challenges we have at our institutions and others and what leaders bring to bear on those institutions. So the opportunity to craft a program designed specifically to support those leaders and to address questions of concern or interest was especially important to us. So we're excited about the new program and excited about the students in the program. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that curriculum, because Howard is going to be the third HBCU that has a higher education program with a specific focus on minority serving institutions, HBCUs, and the challenges that go specifically with our kind of schools. Obviously joined at Jackson State, Morgan State. So why is it important or what is it about the curriculum that allows students to see the specific and unique challenges to HBCU leadership versus higher education at large? Well, one of the things I'd like to say is that HBCUs, we do have a particular history context and purpose. That doesn't mean that we are, you know, completely different from other institutions. So it's important to be grounded or to understand, you know, the literature, the research, the theories, best practices, higher education, you know, writ large. But there are some particular, there's some particular focus, particular information, particular context that is important in our settings. And so for example, you began by talking about our president who was teaching the course on the presidency. So again, his perspective as a university president and a president of an HBCU provides insight that would not otherwise be available to students in programs like this. So that's an example. I certainly teach this semester a course, a new course on black women and higher education leadership. And it really is an opportunity to really think deeply about what that means, what kind of policies and perspectives and what do we bring to this space as women and as women's leaders. And so in addition to serving as a social professor, I'm also a social provost. And so in terms of thinking about leadership and what that means in the HBCU context, certainly the president and certainly I as well have some direct experience with that and are engaged in that on a daily basis. And so I think that makes us unique in that regard that we're certainly preparing our students to lead anywhere. But we believe there's a particular focus or a particular worldview or right or a professional or a leadership philosophy that that shapes how you believe it's successful HBCU. One of the things that makes us different. One of the things that's interesting about this program is it says in the title that there is an intimate focus on policy. Talk a little bit about the examinations you take from a curriculum standpoint, from an experiential learning standpoint in helping students to understand the policymaking elements, particularly at federal and state levels. Because you know that that's critical. Those rules can change with different administrations, different political parties. So how do you get them prepped for to be nuanced about the policymaking element of the presidency? The issue is that certainly policy is something that begins with an idea. It's something that we certainly should shape and inform in our work. And so we certainly take a lot of time making sure that students understand historically how policies are shaped and impacted our institutions, our role in helping to shape, inform, redirect, right, or even help to create or push forward policy that supports our work in our communities. And so that's extremely important. Ways in which which is found in our curriculum. I'm certainly in the higher ed program. We have a policy course that deals specifically with higher ed policy that looks at, for example, the Prosper Act and other important policies that are affecting higher education today. We certainly look at other issues around specifically higher ed finance policy. What that means, how we should certainly be prepared to interact with policymakers and other political leaders around these issues. And you're right. It's certainly, these are certainly non-partisan by a large issue. So the issue of friends and friendships, I mean, that become very important, not around necessarily a party affiliation or, but really around our interest, what's best for our institutions, for our students and for our communities. And we have to be clear about that. So for example, this semester, one of our, one of my colleagues, Dr. Rodriguez, Rodriguez arranged for our students, not only the higher ed program, but other program to meet on Capitol Hill with one of the senators, I believe Senator Bernie Sanders. We always have opportunities to engage with policy makers and advocacy organizations and lobbies and others who are influencing those kind of discussions. And so that's deeply embedded in our program. And it's a part of how we envisioned our students being able to engage and to support and advocate for our institutions. How difficult is it, I guess, in this current political climate are the conversations in the classroom where you're talking about, Hey, this is, this is the kind of work you have to do as an advocate. This is the kind of work you have to do as a lobbyist, but there's so much tension or political tension that students are aware of, students in the class and the cohort, I mean, and that is combined with their own political views and that is combined with the views that their future constituents may have. So how do you kind of help those students work through, you know, your, your, your alumni and your students may feel a certain way. You may feel a certain way and you let your lawmakers may feel a certain way, but you got to get certain, certain policy work done. Are there conversations that revolve around that? Yes, absolutely. But I also think it's important for students to understand that even though we're right now, we're in a challenging political environment and a lot of, you know, chaotic behavior, certainly some behavior that we're not, it's sort of new terrain in many regards. But the issue of contestation and challenge is not new in higher education or in K through 12 education. And so as a leader, the key again is to be consistent about your beliefs, your commitment to your, your students and communities and our institutions and to move forward that way. So, you know, having a friend or like-minded individuals, like-minded political folks in power does not necessarily change the work that we must be prepared to do. So some of the, some of all the, you know, emphasis on who is in office right now at any level, whether that is at the federal level, state level or local level. Though important, it can't be the determinant of our work, nor of our analysis, nor our reflection about how we're going to move forward. So those conversations occur, but I think it's important, certainly in my classes, and I'm sure in others, to not carry there in a way that's going to be paralyzing, but know that we, you know, we always have challenge and a lot of it. And so we've got to be prepared to move forward. What is the balance that you have to strike in your classes and that you find in the program to talk about the differences in leadership and leadership culture for public and private institutions? Because they can, they have a lot of the same interests, but the approaches and the mission and the missions can be slightly different and those slight differences can make big impact if you do it the right way or the wrong way. So how much do you, do you, do you train your students to say, you know, here's how it will go for a public, maybe a little bit different for a private. Here's how it will go working with TMCF. Here's how it will go working with UNCF. Well, you know, I think that last semester I taught history of higher education. And for me, historical context is important for, for, for all of this, for any kind of analysis. And what that means is that higher education, you know, in the United States, anyway, certainly is very complex, very varied. There are all kinds of institutions, institution types. They all have very missions. So I think it's important for us to understand that whether we're in a public space or a private space or working for an organization that's committed to our same ideas, that we have to understand what, I mean, higher education in terms of what is historically why, why, why it was created, why it exists, and how the institution, the higher education institutions can support or, you know, support our, help us to meet our goals and help our students to realize that we want them to lead in our communities to flourish. And so I do think it's important to know about the difference between private or public or whatever. And I tried to, certainly in my classes, we talk about those differences and talk about the evolving nature of the private institution or the public institution and what that means, what that look like, look, what that has looked like over time. And so, yes, I think, and I do, we talk all the time about a private versus a public or an HBCU and MSI or, or PWI and or, or religion, religious based institution or versus one that isn't. So all those differences make a difference in terms of how you approach a challenge, how you try to address it, and how you make sure that your institution is, is sustainable over time. And so, yeah, I think, I think our students are well versed in understanding those, those differences. Have you found in the last two cohorts that you've helped to train up that a majority of your students find or have discovered through the course of this program that they have to be, they got to be in love with this sector and they got to be in love with this job because one of the things that I think that knocks presidents off balance is that they get into a position and they've had a certain realm of training and then they don't realize this. Oh, I have weakness in fundraising. I have weakness in athletic engagement. I have weakness in alumni engagement. I have weakness in student affairs. I have weakness in, weakness in academic affairs, but I'm good at this one thing. So let me hammer home this one thing. Have you found that the questions or the work that they've been doing have awakened them to you got to be, you can be great at something, but you got to be really good at a lot of other things. Exactly, a lot of things. I know I really, a question I, a question I have all the time for the students in the cohort in the, in the program is that many of the students arrive with a goal of becoming the college president, which I think is laudable. I mean, I think that's important. But what I say to them, and this is something that really has really helped me in my work with the students is that this work in higher education and certainly at HBCU, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And so they have to have a whole host of experiences in order to prepare them to serve as a president. That may not be unnecessarily in the higher ed arena. It may be, you know, now certainly there are all a variety of trajectories that lead to the presidency. And in fact, I think that's a good thing. But I do think that there isn't one single experience that can prepare you to lead a university or to support the leadership of the university or lead a variety of levels. There are a whole host of experiences. And so I don't think that any program prepares you to, you know, effectively work with your board or to, you know, make sure that you understand higher ed finance is fully, you know, be able to make good decisions as president or that you understand what it means to, you know, work with faculty and deans and other academic leaders. And so I think that that occurs over time and it occurs with experience. It occurs with, you know, just getting down in the trenches and doing the work. And so I really think that there seems to be a notion that this can be captured and presented to someone as a sort of set of skills. You'll be able to, this is what you need. This is what you need. This is what you need. And I think certainly if you're looking at any kind of leadership role in higher education, you need a whole bunch of tools that don't, that many of them may not be provided in any academic program. And so you got to be able to identify the talent that has the tools. If you don't have it, how do you find the person who absolutely do it for you? Absolutely. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Do you find yourself telling anybody get out of this? Like this, this is crazy. Like this is a, this is an industry that the bubble is bursting. We're seeing a lot of colleges, not HBCUs necessarily, but a lot of colleges closing. We see a lot of HBCUs in financial trouble. Do you ever just look up one day and just say, y'all are crazy as hell. Get out of this. Don't do this. I know that that's, that's, that's treacherous to your program enrollment. But, but do you ever find that you got to have those, those real conversation with the people? Yes, I do. And not to say get out of it, but understand what you're getting into. I always say, you know, one of the things is that higher education is changing rapidly with, as we, you know, in the 21st century, we're seeing decreased enrollment. We have issues around affordability, our economy. Can we really afford to go to a university? What does that mean? And so forth. So those are important questions because all of our institutions, whether HBCUs or PWIs, public, private, I always say, I always, when I talk about HBCUs, often talk about HBCUs or similarly situated institutions, sweet and briar, I mean, we can list many others. So it is a very, very, very challenging time for higher education. And we know if that's true for all of our education, what that means for HBCUs or similarly situated institutions. So you have to be not only passionate, you got to have a plan, a strategy, and you have to be forward thinking, flexible. You have to be committed to challenging traditional notions about what institutions look like or will look like. And the next, it's not even long term, short term, five, 10, 15 years. And that's, that's, that's really, really makes this field exciting. But it also makes it, it makes people who want to work in this area field vulnerable. You have to be willing to, to, to embrace that. This, this, I could do this all day. And I, and we only got, so it's actually my fault because you're on a roll and I could ask you 50 questions. No, I enjoy it. Let me, let me just ask you this. How, for people who are listening across the country and around the world, can you tell us where we can get more information about the program, how to apply, where to, where to find more info online, all the good stuff. Sure, absolutely. Our program, certainly you can visit the School of Education's website, Howard University School of Education website, which I don't have the extra, I can look, thing, but certainly go to Howard University, Google Howard. That's right, Google Howard University School of Education. School of Education, you can certainly go to our department, which is educational leadership and policy studies. The, the deadline has passed, I believe the, the annual deadline is late fall for fall, we admit a court per year. So we've already actually selected the cohort for fall 2019. Oh my, things go so quickly. But again, very, very quickly. So that's true. And we try to make sure that we have a nice mix of students with varied experiences and backgrounds who have shown a commitment to, to leading HBCUs or MSIs. And so we, we've been fortunate to have great applicants and fortunate to have great folks who actually become a part of the cohort each year. So we're, we're anxiously anticipating our third cohort and look forward to many years of, of great students.