 नहीं हो आद्र of the greatest of all time among Indian olympians. अना show, हम शादा होगरा, हम पहpraps, कबशाँ वडोब लिंपिक शैं बहुफम's, लेश्टी सेविर, हम आज भी नहीं वो, वह रेश्लियं यिन अलिंपिक्श बहुँ न आनि और जेदीः सेद, विकी पीटिया जेदिप सर से बात करती है, I just want to tell you. So let me start off by throwing this open and I am going to go to Jairib sir since we have given the best introduction for you. विकी विकी थब बात करती है, वे विकी जागा में बात करती है, बात करती है। It's now 100 years I think we have started participating in the olympics. In 2020 I think Sharda will be able to tell me, I think there was an Indian in the 1920 and 4 olympic also. भी लिए, आपशा शाथ है, आप वोने, 26 से जागा मेंगल मेंगल जागा। So, 100 years we have won, 26 medical send all together. । । । । झere kono vodas kanab shesha shal showcase kumaj chela. ञीदे। वाद बाँध पारोग भी बस जोगे वादी आदा जा there was no preparation, nothing. Nobody cared whats happening. Nobody cared whats happening. वाद बस जोगे है। There was no government who was pouring in money like it happened in the case of Abhinapendra or Shashil Kumar or for the matter for Rajendra Singh or anybody who was talking about. जो जो, ही थो तो, आहीं औत है। So, I think it's a huge achievement to take India because sports in India did not go hand in hand at that point of time. मुर्दा, मुर्दा, मुर्दा, मुर्दा, साई, मुर्दा, अआइ, गर बिजाया मार्चिंदुत � knife of grass and about a really lovely footballer, Darin Kaldedra. And so you understand, you understand when I'm going with this, like what the impact of a sportsman should be in society also, like do you think, count that as like something as a barometer for measuring this at all? Or is this like a different period of time which often wants to know? I think that what happens with athletes is that we give them qualities that maybe they don't have. They are basically physically or psychologically, temperamentally capable of great feats in the sports that they play. And I think that the athlete who then steps up and steps out of his little bubble of being an athlete is what you see as remarkable. Now the thing is they may not be great athletes per se as in they may not be massive achievers. They may not have actually what even Darin Kaldedra pointed out is that they don't have that much at stake. The impact of the figure of the answer than who he was and what he represented at that time to many Indians, many young people, young men, young women and the fact that we won those medals there. But what you're saying is that when someone has to be a champion, then you would like them to be counted for more. Maybe this is what comes when you work for a long time like both Jaydeep and I have worked for Donkeys. But I'm glad that it's arrived at you so much earlier than the younger person ever. Congratulations. You learnt important things very fast. So how unimportant is what we largely do in terms of our professional work. In the wider scheme of things, you would want your champions to be champions outside their sphere as well. In India, the opposite happens. They become like slaves to power almost. So I think when you do come across athletes that are different, you appreciate them. I mean, this is now going back to the Greeks and what to them represented at what athletes and champions were. What did this transfer? It's not like we don't have an account of any Olympian from the sort of the DC era, championing causes or freeing slaves or whatever. But you would want your current athlete to be in tune with what is happening around them and sort of take a stand. But now we've seen the stand they take. So your kind of expectations are lowered immediately. And you automatically think, okay, obviously they're going to join politics because they're talking like this. You hear Babita Phogat, just her Twitter messages. And I remember meeting her when she had just won a Commonwealth Games medal and she was a wonderful, bright-eyed teenager. And look at what she becomes. A lot of athletes are fundamentally young people. And what they mature and grow into, that then tells you who they are as people people, when they grow up. I don't know if that's answered your question or I'm rambling. No, no, no. It brings me about. So then obviously the next question is, yeah. So who do you then rank? Like you would have seen the growth of an athlete over the course of several Olympics perhaps. Someone, I don't know who it is. And this is actually going to be a surprise also. So who do you think in your opinion you've seen this like growth even when you read about them. And you think, yeah, okay, this guy or this girl can be considered one of the greatest Olympians. I mean, I would, I love referring, you know, recognising the achievements of our athletes from the, who are in the pre-professional era because they work with a lot of obstacles and a lot of limitations. Whereas the athletes of today like Jaydeep were saying that they are actually very spoiled in many ways. I want to just sort of play it safe and start making many, many categories. I think hockey should be made as an independent category by itself. I know all you viewers, all you viewers who are looking at this and thinking is Siddhant, where is Siddhant? He is not here because he said we will do a separate video on hockey. So we will ask him to do it. Okay, very good. So that, and I would say sort of, you know, the people of that time, you know, I would think Sri Ram Singh was a fantastic athlete. He competed in track and field. Physically, it's a much tougher sport. I am biased towards Abhinav Vidra because I saw his gold medal and I remember what he was like because he then, what his gold medal did for Indian athletes, not for us who are doing, okay, Proud feels, hashtag, you know. But for athletes, what he did was a great thing, that it's literally like he set them free and says boss, it's possible. It is possible. I would say, one more thing just to bring Jaydeep back in, Jaydeep people around the world had heard of the great Gama before they had heard of Dhyamchand. Leslie, am I correct or wrong? Actually, literally having my notes written great Gama. But he wasn't a great Olympian. So, Sharda had a great Gama. That means that obviously she is going to bring, and she is talking about Sushil Kumar being the goat of Indian Olympics. And the thing is that when, when I thought that when Sharda is coming on, this is obviously a very big mistake that we automatically assume and that's why the assumption I also made, yes, I hope she will talk about a female Olympian. But why should she, when actually, if there is a female Olympian to be spoken about, she's from Kerala. And we have our spokesperson from Kerala, Mr Leslie Xavier, who's going to tell us a little bit about how big an influence and what a big deal P. T. Ushiles, when it comes to the Olympics for India. She was, she attained Kerala status that way because everyone was looking up to it, the men as well because yes, she was fighting a lot of odds to come up the way she was from the conditions that she was affected. And then at the same time also fighting through a system which never really promoted women in sport. And then with her performances, I mean, before fourth finish and later the high point of her career, the Asian Games multiple gold medal and then the kind of impact that she had in the period that she competed it continues even now. And the kind of the generation of athletes who look up to her as an inspiration that's, that's, I mean, it continues even now. And then at her level as a coach, she's trying a bit which is again a debatable thing because as a coach, I feel myself that he has not done great. But as an athlete, her impact is beyond doubt. And so if you ask me to name an athlete who has had an impact and can be considered as the greatest of Indian Olympics I would look at people like Usha, people like Milka Singh, Major Danshan as well because he is a epitome of what sports person is. When we were growing up, we would be given examples of Milka Singh and his work ethic. We will be giving a given examples of Major Danshan and the higher level of game and skill and competitiveness that he bought onto the field by Shia. These were examples that we grow up. And of course, they never say die, never give up attitude that Pitu Shia embodied while doing whatever she did on the field. So I would mention these three athletes. I would look at people who have been examples for generations to follow, not just in their sport but across sport who would be my greatest of all time. I have given a general answer as such but maybe later in the discussion I would pick someone specific. So the thing is that you all have given three names. I have given four or five names. The first best thing is that like Jadip sir said straight at the side that we have so little that it can be a small discussion. So we can actually cut this right now also and people will be like, yes, that's right. Imagine having this conversation in Russia or the US or something. Who is the greatest Olympian? They are talking. Peter Jackson will direct a trilogy. After that, he will make one more. You know, that can happen. But we have three names I have very clearly marked out and it seems like these three people are the ones who will unanimously perhaps come up to the front. And each one of them, now when I look at it when we say greatest Olympian of all time then we start talking about legacy. And as soon as I read their names, I'm like there is problem. Each one of them, their legacies have been ruined by people in charge and people who have come after. How much of a role can a sports person play in defining their own legacy? This goat debate, this like, oh, greatest of all time I have to now protect my legacy, build on my legacy. Like is that like something that sports persons can they define is there something, any role they can play in this? Dereep sir? Yeah, they have and the name, all the three names we have discussed so far. Dhanchanth from me and Sharda spoke about Shil Kumar and Pityu Shah, Leslie talked about. But if you come down to 36 Olympics when Dhanchanth was made the captain he was like a role model to everyone. And the same legacies, when he became the captain the team was really united. So he must have had that quality which he carried till today. We still speak about, talk about major Dhanchanth. Same can be talked, said about Shushin. Because in India we have seen when we win somebody win a Olympic medal whether it's bronze or silver or gold you can very well think that his career is as good as over. Because he will come back, he will be getting a few crores from the state government then he will be given so much money this much, this much and he will gather a few crores and his career is almost over. Like very unfortunately it happened with Vijay Kumar in London. He won a silver medal and next Olympics he couldn't have been qualified. But the greatest achievement of Shushil Kumar is he not only won a bronze medal first he won a bronze medal and in the next Olympics he not only won another medal but he bettered the medal. So he had so much in him and 2008 he won a bronze medal and 2008 in the world championship won a gold medal and again in the Russian wrestler in Moscow and 2012 he almost, he almost of course he didn't win the gold but he made the final. In 2008 he came through the repitiation round, isn't it? But in 2012 he came straight to the final and same with Pityusha because Pityusha of course except for 84 he didn't achieve too much in any Olympics but if you look at her career in the next 5 or 6 years he was this there was a time when he was this she was the sole medal winner for India even in nation games at least there was one nation games where she won all the gold medal and I think the Kabadi team won the another gold medal So that way he carried the entire nation on her shoulders for not only in 84 Olympics maybe I will say up to 1990 wrestling what do you say? 2 nation games for sure so that entire decade all these 3 were capable of carrying the legacy so that's the reason they could be considered India's greatest Olympians I mean if you ask me let me say it's a very abstract concept So we have hindsight about all the athletes that we have discussed right now but then when discussions happen we talk about their time and not talk about now because legacy is measured in now So I am sure the ancients impact within the team dynamics of pre-independent India was great and he was a unifying factor within the team and all that but I am also when I look back now and earlier the conversation that we have brought in about athletes standing up and expressing their opinions and their stance on social matters on political matters on injustices happening around across the country which happens by the way abroad and we were talking about US Olympians and all that and we have studied we have analyzed we have praised a lot of US black athletes who have stood up and faced the repercussions even the ancients and just often and so legacy for me is that continuation of whatever that is and the interpretation that we can make in a later time and see if it is lasting So lasting legacy why is the ancients great as a sports person he has set an example set the parameters for what ideal sports person should aspire to become that's why the ancient award is I mean the award is also named after him and it's great but the yardstick that is set also set this guideline saying that an ideal sports person would only play his only concern should be the playing field and don't look beyond it and he was a I mean he was a leader of men with impact at a time India was going through a huge struggle for freedom so his performances on the playing field great and it brought out India as a sporting entity in the world but at the same time his impact and the impact that he could have made in the society in the freedom movement or in this immediate vicinity immediate circle I would say that he was happily being such an integral part of the time and there might have been many reasons for that he must have been bound by the army contact he was a perfect soldier so many factors and it's not an attempt to belittle him but then that tradition has continued after that and that has continued and reached a stage where it's become a curse for Indian sport that way and at the larger level Indian society where we have become inert we are happily cocooned in our area of expertise we have become we focus on our world our areas and that's it and nothing beyond that because you are expected to do well in your area and don't bother anything about it so the enchants legacy is diluted a little that way if you look at it because and I again say I am saying it with hindsight and saying it with subjectivity as well because I see things I see a sports person's role I see a journalist's role because we are sports journalists and we are expected to cover matches that's the general drill that is in editorial meetings that's what happens you are saying that last page what will happen tell me what is elite who scored the goal such an integral part of the century Virat Kohli did this he did that but a larger impact within the society in that sporting realm is always there always been there because sport as an engine of social change it's very evident and be it this is the problem this is the problem that while I agree that this is true but like now I am going to this is the bit where if you are Jharkhandi you got to tune in like I will tell you I consider him the greatest Olympian of all time but the truth is that even in Jharkhand the hockey stadium is named after Birsa Munna the airport is named after Birsa Munna the athletic stadium is named after Birsa Munna that's why I would say because if a foreigner comes in they would think that Jharkhandi or Rajiv Gandhi was the greatest athlete in India ever produced because all the stadiums are named after them so my point being that there is a reason that perhaps these great names who have come up in this discussion there is a reason that they were exemplary on the sports field and then they are remembered for that because they never raised their voices is that like I don't know again I want to know if I am right or wrong here is that why we remember them also perhaps because they never pissed off the wrong people I just want to step in here my connection is a bit unstable that's alright yeah I agree with what Leslie said about legacy as to what it is our athletes are conventionally they are always beholden to the state they have always been I think the only sport in which people say what they feel fairly freely relatively speaking is football where you are not beholden to the state so you will have CK Vinay doing something you will have Reno Anto doing something whatever he wants but not the big star CK Sunil Chhetri is now going to stand and start shouting about ANTC, AAPALANA so it's all that balance that they are trying to do trying to keep people happy if you are looking for legacy with that context it will be very hard to find a dream sports person and I would suggest and I am not saying this because I know him well because Vinay speaks for athletes I am saying atleast speak for athletes never mind the wider population to speak for athletes call out your officials call out the society call out power if it's your power it's a small sort of world of power but even that is not questioned and if you are looking at athletic legacy or hockey legacy what you can see is that after having these great figures like PT Usha Indian Athletics did not transform itself in any you know it did not turn into something it did not it did not become what like shooting has become that our shooters are everywhere our chess players are everywhere they are not winning medals but they are there you see they are present the shooters are making finals and everyone say oh shooting is out of 40 that legacy of having more and more and more better people come come after you you know they haven't won an Olympic gold but they won silver they will win a gold pretty soon I mean had the Tokyo games happened you gave yourself a good chance your depth of field increased so much and you can say okay that's also a legacy cause by whatever whether it was Rathore's first medal or whether it was Anjali making the finals so you had the knock effect you don't see the knock on effect in athletic it's again very sporadic and hockey though it's like the players are fighting you know that the hockey have the sagas that go on endlessly so what I'm saying is you know that sort of knock on effect and the domino effect of having produced a great athlete you know I was doing something for doing a little bit of writing trying to find out about Usha does anyone know how many international medal she won number does anyone have the number I'm asking all of you I can tell you that these medals medals won at races in the Olympic somewhere in the US I just read the number somewhere it was quite staggering but I don't remember 105 yeah yeah yeah I read it somewhere 105 can you imagine Bhimadas would have won 105 medals or anybody else would have won 100 how can you take an athlete of that quality and then we are crying to look for place in an Olympic final I mean look at the 400m this is my theory my peck theory which I will now espouse 400m to 400m women's relay team it has been our strongest team performance in an Asian game without they've drawn up and they've been gold medal whatever everyone will say do or poor whatever I don't care so you should take those four people and that event and make that your own try and own it at an Olympic level I think we go beyond an Asian game gold medal and do something else Leslie is laughing Leslie is laughing you brought up dope but the thing is I am on the same side let me just clear that because it's connected to Usha also the 4x400 and the failure of 4x400 because Usha is big time into politicking and pushing one of her athletes into that cottage cottage is never set till the last day when they are supposed to run so how do you so that is where the legacy problem lies and the other one about Usha that you mentioned another that you mentioned so Jayadip also said that we tend to celebrate that Usha was the only one who was winning medals for us but we should have question is at that point saying that why so so legacy that brings us to the entire ecosystem where everybody is inert we as journalists are inert athletes are inert administrators are inert they do whatever they want we do whatever we want and then we are not going anywhere so it brings us back to that this incredible story the incredible 4x400 meter story I must tell you that in absence I went to only two olympic games I have not been to like 8 or 10 order only two but two pretty good ones first gold medal you cannot match that okay then we are obliged to send you for another few way everyone watching this we are here please donate we are starting crowdfunding we are sending sharda for gold medal to tokyo games winter olympics because crowdfunding reminds me of winter olympics yeah so so this was the i and the athens olympics this was the semifinal and they ran a fantastic race the indian women I think mandeep was the one who ran the ankle eggs fantastic race the final health the final health they are there they are competing and mandeep was not there nobody knows what happened they have just changed the quartet I think they broke the national record on both days I could be wrong but I know they broke it on the day which is still unbroken by the way and we finished 7th and not 8th because the greek team which had they lost their shoe so we finished 7th and that is the last I think that's the last track final that indians have ever competed in if I am not wrong so the athletes you should make statues out of them and put it somewhere but they don't do that because you know you don't want an athlete becoming more powerful than lalit bhanok what is the point I feel like we are anti-statue so we are not going to make statues ok anti-statue it's a good thing it's a waste of money actually so this is a very important point to raise and I think it's like I would like to say that this is a societal legacy and we keep it aside like if we talk about sport first let's talk about sporting legacy so about sporting legacy you can nobody talk about vital we don't want to do it I am also bored I am also bored I am saying if you can see from the sporting angle and this is where now again actually all three of you will have something to tell me atleast teach me please tell me about susheel kumar please tell me about his sporting legacy 2012 2016 see overstaying is seen in any any sporting endeavor even in journalism so you can't be senile and then writing pieces I am telling myself according to age acting you and then me either you nor me one of us no this is not about age it's about writing ability so this is a big aim that me actually but ok let's take it reverse for a change so susheels I mean so there is two ways to interpret it so one is why is he trying to compete again what is the reason so one way to I mean if you are a susheel supporter you say that it's an innate drive because that is the drive that we are praising when we say that bronze medal he did that alchemy act of making it silver and he wanted to make it gold and all that so the problem here is again the system around the athlete we should give the athlete the right reality check as well because athlete doesn't know a boxer wouldn't know why would professional boxer born getting into the ring and humiliating themselves and getting punched and then struggle to your life with alchemy or whatever because they just don't know when to stop and so you can't say because Ali was pummeled and destroyed by larium his sporting legacy is dead because he overstayed in the ring susheel kumars stay I know it's not comparable to mama's ali or whatever but at some level there are parallels because he doesn't know what to do he doesn't know when to stop and he thinks that he has it in him but it's very evident from the eshen games performance very evident from the last world championship that is done and he's trying to make inroads in a weight category which produces the best wrestlers in a given generation period we have like 10 people who could win medals and who could destroy susheel in one minute so that's the quality that we are talking about so it's not exactly susheel's fault over there that is I mean overstaying and creating a problem for his legacy but then as far as his sporting legacy is considered beyond doubt we have won medals after that bronze medal in wrestling in every games that has been staged and sakshi malik coming out and winning a medal bajrang being the world champion world number one in his category and two three others who are contenders to win medal if and when tokyo olympics is staged so that is his legacy because being an insider in the sport I know the mindset and I know the change in mindset that has happened because of susheel because how people look up to susheel so him trying to compete and staying and I don't believe that I don't believe that his sporting legacy is tarnished on a personal friend I feel sorry for him in fact so obviously it's fairly clear that there are some very strong contenders who are undisputed when it comes to gold this is end of part one for us where we've spoken about the greatest Indian olympian of all time there's a part two also which you can watch later where we're going to talk about men and women who you perhaps not heard about underdog stories and some of the greatest underdog stories from the olympics for India