 Great, so welcome everybody to a session that we're sharing today with the SHALTAG movement. And we have a presentation from Jisk's Alistair McNaught is joining us as well. And we're going to just start off the session, which is provocatively titled, Promises and Lies, and aims to get us thinking about how inclusive OERs are and how inclusive we are in our digital practice. And challenges us to think about that. And I think we're going to have some really interesting discussions arising from that. So I'm very grateful to Peter and to Alistair for joining us today. My name is Theresa McKinnon. I'm at the University of Warwick and I'm chair of the Open Aid SIG. And today what we're going to do is just start off, first of all, with moving us through the platform just to make sure everybody's familiar. So as I mentioned, we have two presenters joining us. Peter Kilcoin on behalf of SHALTAG from the heart of Worcestershire College. And Alistair McNaught from Jisk who's a subject specialist and a brilliant writer of Haiku, I have to say, as well. So if you haven't yet discovered Alistair on Twitter, you have to because his poetry brightens my life every day. It's excellent. So welcome. You've already run through the tools so you know your way around a little bit. Hopefully you've run your audio setup and your hearing is okay. If not, at the bottom left you can see there's a little Moderators tab. So if you've got any technical problems, just click on the Moderators tab in the chat box and send us a message and we will try and help and make sure that you can hear us and we can deal with any problems. There's just a quick reminder of the chat panel as well. During the session, if you have any questions, what we'd like you to do is to just pop them into the chat. You can press X them with a Q that will help me sign them and pose them to our presenters as well later. So that would be really helpful and do feel free obviously to discuss things as you come across them and to use that chat to exchange perhaps links or ideas. The OpenEd SIG, so OECIG or the OpenEd SIG Special Interest Group, there's a little bit about us there and our remit is very clear. We want to support, develop, sustain and influence policy in open education. And by open education we mean removing or reducing the barriers to access to learning wherever we find them. There are many and we know it's complicated. But we also look as well increasingly as OECIG at joining up the discussions around open in lots of other fields too and there'll be more about that towards the end of the session today. So I'm going to pass over now to Peter to tell you a little bit about SELTAG having spoken briefly about the OpenEd SIG. Okay, thank you Theresa and good afternoon everybody from a very sunny Worcester. I hope you're all hearing me okay. It's my role today as a member of the OLD SELTAG SIG is just to do a brief overview of SELTAG particularly for those of you that aren't from the third education sector. SELTAG stands for the Third Education Learning Technology Action Group and it was a group put together to produce a report for the government in 2013 made up of various great and the good from third education and the learning technology world. And it had a number of work streams, horizon scanning, investment, capital infrastructure, regulation and funding, capacity and capability providers, employers and learners which gave an overview of where the situation was at the time and made a number of recommendations as to how these different things could be moved forward for the sector. If any of you haven't read the report if you just Google SELTAG it's very easy to find and download. Now, what happened with SELTAG has been very interesting. The recommendations were given to the government, the education ministers made replies which many of us felt were very disappointing and didn't really respond to a lot of the recommendations that were made but we're going back now, free government's worth as it were. We're talking about the Liberal Democrat conservative coalition government so clearly that's ancient history now. So at the government level the report kind of died but what's been very interesting about SELTAG is that the sector really took ownership of it and Bob Harrison who was sure many of you are familiar with who is a great proponent of the sector and learning technology and speaks at many learning technology events and is a very vocal tweeter and if you don't follow Bob I couldn't recommend his tweets high enough to follow. He sort of coined this phrase of SELTAG being a movement not a report and Bob often talks about the spirit of SELTAG and I think that is very true but it is something that the sector and supporting organisations like JISC and ALT have really taken ownership of themselves and have driven forward a lot of the ideas that came from SELTAG which have now become mainstreamed in the sector. So it still echoes down the line and this webinar is linked to some of that and Alistair is talking about a number of issues regarding the accessibility of open content and this very much fits in with the capacity and capability providers and the learners agendas. So I'll now pass on to Alistair who will take it from here. Okay, thank you very much. Can I just check in the text chat pane that people can hear? Just a quick yes will be great. That sounds good. Well, a couple of people can hear. Lovely. Okay, The Promise, Digital Diversity. I love the concept of open educational resources and I love the way it can help meet more needs for more learners with less work for staff and this diagram here, I'll just talk you through this diagram. This became very clear to me many years ago back in the late 1990s when we were actively developing an intranet at the college where I taught. I began to realize that different members of staff produced very different kind of content. So for example, my content, I used quite a lot of text, I used a fair few images but mainly to illustrate the points in the text. I didn't have a video camera back in those days. A video camera was a thing you had to go and purchase independently. It wasn't on your phone. So I didn't use much in the way of video or audio. I did do quite a lot of interactivity just using Word documents, drag and drop with text boxes, pop up screen tips and so on. So that was my profile but what I realized was that my colleague, Jan for example her content was very very different to mine. She wasn't a very texty person. She used quite a lot of images and she was very keen on recording audio clips. My colleague Kim on the other hand had a completely different approach at all from that completely. My colleague Steve was somebody who his content was very strongly mind map based. He liked sketching mind maps on pieces of paper. But we could scan that, load it up onto the virtual learning environment or the intranet as our learning platform was at that time. What it meant was because all of us shared all our resources with all our students it meant that a student that was in my class which was a mainly textual class but really benefited from audio could just nib over and see what Jan was doing in her class. On the intranet. So students were going between the different resources. Now of course open educational resources, the whole open educational content movement gives us tremendous opportunities to be able to not just have four or five different rainbows of teaching styles and teaching preferences but potentially millions of resources where I could give students videos from the Khan Academy and I could give student access to academic texts from core.ac.uk. And I can mix and match according to my particular students needs, their particular levels, their preferred medium. We have a rainbow of digital diversity. And for those of you that remember your basic physics I've even tried to get the colour sequence right from the top to the bottom. So what we should be able to do with an open educational movement we ought to be able to allow our students to move freely across these rainbows picking out the kinds of resources that best meet their needs that are best adapted to their assistive technologies. However, there's a difference between theory and practice because I'm going to I think Theresa used the word provocative. I'm going to make some provocative comments because I think the open educational resource movement is plagued by five digital deceptions. These are things that look like they're one thing that are actually something else and they all boil down to a lack of awareness of basic accessibility practice, basic inclusion, good practices. They have impacts for all users not just for disabled users but their impact is particularly marked, particularly noticeable for people with additional support needs. So let's have a look at the digital deceptions. Now remember we're starting with the rainbow of diversity that looks like this. As we work through the next 20 minutes our rainbow is going to be decidedly monochrome. So the first digital deception is text that isn't. Text that pretends to be text, I can see a PDF document on the screen and yet it's not text, it's just an images text. So my tools simply won't work with it. My text speech tool that I might need won't work with it. Somebody that wants to magnify the text but not have to scroll left and right off the screen to see it won't be able to do that because there's no way a picture of text can reflow. So what we see here is her content, her text content that I thought was a great supplement to mine isn't. His content, again, scanned images with no OCR, no optical character recognition taking place, that isn't. So that first deception text that is just an image of text has lost me some of my digital diversity and it doesn't end there. But let's just have a look at why this might matter. I've talked briefly there about a couple of issues but I want you to spend a few minutes thinking about scanned documents on your virtual learning environment, scanned documents in an e-book platform that you subscribe to, scanned documents in a repository of information that you use that you thought was an open educational repository but you find lots of scanned documents. Okay, now there are these benefits for all kinds of users, disabled users, non-disabled users. Can we see? So we've got the first thing. Theresa said screen readers can't use them. Yeah, excellent. Joe saying can't cut and paste into something. Of course, really significant thing. You can't cut out a quote. You have to type it manually. Screen readers can't read again. We've got the whole thing about screen readers and of course not just screen readers because screen reader users are a very small proportion of the demographic. You'd have to be completely blind to be a screen reader user but people who benefit from text to speech that's a much bigger demographic. So for example people with dyslexia that's roughly speaking we reckon about 10% of the population. People who perhaps English is the second or third language and they're used to reading a script that goes from right to left instead of left to right for them listening to text is very often the much, much more effective way of consuming information than it is to read it off the screen because listening to it is something that they've done for years listening to English language, TVs, films, audio, pop songs and so on. So background color and contrast, excellent one. Yes, you can't change the background color and contrast. If it was a PDF document that had actual words on an actual background you can change those colors. Difficult to resize the text. Image quality of course. Once you get to maybe 100% magnification maybe you're getting really fuzzy fonts whereas if it was real text the fonts would be vector based and they would improve. Time to load that could be an issue and image is much bigger as well. You can get your tablet to read PDF aloud. Well you may be able to if it's a PDF that isn't just an image scan. And the other thing to bear in mind Joe is that sometimes again it will depend on the nature of the PDF but you can get a PDF which is an image scan and this happens on Google quite a lot on the Google scholar sites. It's an image scan but underneath it for screen reader users they have almost like a hidden text layer that only screen readers can get to but that's very much the exception rather than the rule. So we've got loads of really good things there even the potential problems of books on scanners losing parts of the page of the physical impact of scanning texts. The key thing here is that what is really important for you to think about and really important for us to try to influence upstream through any ways you have of influencing open educational practice in your organization is make sure that open educational practice adheres to basic good practice in accessibility because if it doesn't it's a deception. You're not really providing the quality and range of material that you could be providing. You're putting barriers there that needn't be there. Now the second deception is what I call structure that isn't and this is the sort of thing where you look at a document and it looks fantastic in terms of how well structured and laid out it is. So you can see the main heading. You can see the chapter heading. You can then see a section heading and then you can see subsections underneath that and even subsections under the subsections and you look at it on screen on the print and it looks brilliant. You think that is so easy to navigate. It's so clear to see where I am on the screen on the page. The problem is of course most documents are not the single screen on a page. Most documents might go a book for example might be 600 pages long. Now depending on how you create your document if you create your document by selecting a heading and then clicking the style headings, heading one, heading two, heading three then that document will be not only fantastic to look at on the page but it will be fantastic to access digitally. So a Word document has been well structured maybe 400 pages long. I remember working with a friend's PhD thesis. He had 400 pages of Word document and he had headings all over it but he hadn't used the inbuilt styles. Consequently, when you try to look at the navigation pane or the outline view there was absolutely nothing to see and he was spending hours and hours trying to move sections around when he realized that a section might fit better in a new section he's just written and moving them around trying to work out what was where and what page. We went through it and in a very short time because he had been consistent in the types of headings he'd used very quickly we'd been able to assign heading one, heading two, heading three, heading four, heading five. Instantly we could then see the whole interactive telescopic structure in the navigation pane. There are simple tools, plugins for web pages that will do exactly the same. Headings map for Google Chrome is an excellent example. If you've got a really long web page just click on headings map for Google Chrome and it will show you main headings for subheadings. It works fantastically if the author has created the document using those heading styles. If they haven't, if they've just selected the text and said bold 20 point underlined then there will be no way you can get that valuable navigational information. So what that's done in this example here so I've lost some more content because it might be that it's my content for example whilst I've got loads of text content if I didn't know about those headings for structural headings and nobody told me that that was the way I should do it and nobody told me that the reason why I should do it that way is because of the fantastic navigation it gives to every single user which is particularly important to users with print impairments then maybe I didn't use heading styles at all. So suddenly we find not only has her content and his content proved to be a deception but my content proved to be a deception as well. So what I've just asked for a few minutes now is do you routinely use heading styles to structure your documents? Yes or no? If you do just tell me why is it because of this or is it because somebody told you too or is it because you saw it there it seemed a good idea at the time. If you don't maybe why not? So let's see. So Therese has just recently begun to use them the accessibility aspect is phenomenally important Therese so well done for starting to use them but if you look at a well structured document and you click on view zoom document map what a difference that makes for somebody trying to read through. Word styles needed to generate APA tables content do you have a good point? So this is a wonderful kind of honesty thing some people say I do it a bit but I do it sometimes. The other big advantage if you do it a lot of people create Therese in Word and then export to HTML or PDF if you use the inbuilt styles they export to whatever else you export to so do it once, use it many times. Elizabeth's making the point there about it looks good and Joe's making the point that it looks ugly. The thing that joins those two together is that if you've been consistent in your use of styles you can make the style look however you want so you can just use the default style as there and when you finish the document or even before you finish the document click on over heading one for example right click over it and you can change it to look exactly as you want. I've got two documents one is out to the one that you see on the screen background to hair I've got a version of that a tutor and then I've got a second version I made the tutor hadn't known about using styles so she had used just the normal bold, italic font size etc I created something that looked absolutely identical on print you can't tell the difference I put two copies in front of you you cannot tell the difference as soon as you go online with them you look at her as you click on the navigation pane and there is nothing you've got a seven page document no way of navigating through it quickly you look on my version of it which is identical when printed out and my version shows you all the heading ones all the heading twos you can skip in three clicks you can skip to any part of the document so ah, Scrivener I won't comment on Scrivener Jeff I did try Scrivener and I got so confused and lost so much work that I gave up I don't think that was a Scrivener problem I think that was a user problem but the key thing is wherever you can use them use them they're really important and they generally will translate well, I know a few of you are saying there are some problems but what's interesting I noticed Leo saying that you can go between Word and Google Docs as well alright so thank you very much for that there's only five so we're doing fine for time you might even get an extra dinner and here I've provocatively called this rich media that impoverish so it's media and interaction so it could be an interactivity or it could be video, it could be audio but something that is designed to make students engaged something that's designed to make students think great I have so much better way of learning than trying to read from this dry dusty textbook and yet when they get there there are significant problems because the thing about audio and video is that they can be in some ways for some students they can be easier to access information for but what about if you've got an hour long lecture and I'm wanting to revise my hour long lecture and the thing I want to revise is I want to know what it was that Vygotsky said about social constructivism or something now I've got two problems if I'm trying to do this entirely from a video recording I'm thinking to myself there's this guy called Vygotsky the problem is I want to quote him and I have no idea how you spell his name because it doesn't tell me in the video there's just a tutor to talk to you about Vygotsky so I can't search for keywords neither can I search for key dates so a tutor says about something that happened in 1915 and I'm not quite sure if they said 1950 or 1915 to be able to just skim some text for that would be really helpful and to be able to look at an hour long video and not think I think the Vygotsky bit was somewhere in the middle to be able to go to something that's text and just search in social constructivism incidentally I would find that's how you spell Vygotsky I found it and you'd instantly find the reference you wanted now what I'm not saying is that every video you do and every audio you do should have a full transcript or subtitling now you may feel that that is a surprising thing for accessibility advocates to be saying that you don't have to produce the full transcript all the time and the reason I'm saying that is because rich media is better than just no media at all so if I've got a choice between a member of staff who only uploads text and a member of staff who use a text and audio and video the one that's going to be most inclusive is the one that uses the bigger variety of media however what I'm also not saying is that if I'm going to encourage people to start using media I cannot afford to put them off by saying every little bit of video you create has to have subtitling on it and that's going to take you an extra hour I'm not going to say that to members of staff who are busy teaching I will say that to the e-learning developer whose full-time job it is to work with video software and to be competent and confident and fast at doing subtitling but I'm not going to say it to a teacher what I'll say to a teacher is as a minimum give me the key teaching points that are in that video that might be the name it might be Vygotsky and it might be a date and it might be the name of a theory it might be a couple of other people equally it might be a transcript if you've it's a video of yourself or if you've done your own podcast then it makes perfect sense if you're doing a podcast you do a script to get you going anyway the script can be the transcript the point is what I want is some text alternative that will give me what the key teaching objectives are and that will not just benefit dyslexic students or print-impaired students or deaf students it will benefit everybody so let's have a look now let's get you doing some work I looked for an approximate development exactly that is exactly the point it's about taking people where they are and moving them to the next point not moving them asking them to move so far beyond that they're just not going to engage at all so what about you, what are you going to do here that you're interested in is the guidance in your organization for the accessible use of multimedia and interactivity is it something that people have even thought about have you got a draconian regime where something has to be checked by three people and if it hasn't got seen description and subtitling you can't load it even though it's something that took you five minutes to create maybe a little lab experiment takes place, five minutes to create and then five hours to do subtitling and scene description that doesn't sound to me like an effective way of encouraging people to get online but tell me your experiences that's what I'd like to know what are your experiences to raise open standards slightly different you keep typing things in I'll just go back I think I've missed something there the YouTube subtitles that's a really good system to use Anne-Catherine and I completely agree with you they will always need some editing but if you only have 20% editing to do instead of 100% editing that's taken you a lot further so Boatback's got some light touch guidance and I think that's the right kind of guidance to have to have light touch guidance for it to become something that almost a quality mark something that people do because it's good practice because having that summary of what the teaching points are actually makes you think about why you did it in the first place what value added you've got by putting it there Daniel no particular guidance there I think it's something where it's worth having guidance and remember what I said about guidance needs to be appropriate to the people you're guiding so I don't think I'm definitely not talking about a get out of jail card free for e-learning developers so they can just throw stuff up online without thinking about whether or not subtitling is important whether or not full transcripts are important generally speaking you should go for as high an accessibility as you can but that has to be proportionate to the skills that that person is expected to have you've got the link there thanks Leo that's great that's a really important point I think the flipped classroom is great there are all kinds of benefits with it but if it's not done with a recognition of accessibility then you end up flipping the classroom making a better experience for quite a lot of people and then actually a worse experience for other people and I think one of the key things here is that if you take the argument about subtitling key point summaries transcripts etc if you take the argument that it's only about deaf people or only about blind people then a lot of teachers say well I haven't got any deaf students I haven't got any blind students so I'll not bother the really important thing is to show like that Vygotsky example earlier to show that this adds significant value for everyone there are many times I've watched a video especially one of those talking head videos where you have a lecturer talking about something there are many times I've watched something and at the end of it I thought there was a lot in there but I'm not exactly sure what the key points were and I would love to have been able to look at the transcript and just read through it again or I would have loved even more perhaps for there to be a summary the key takeaways from this are X, Y and Z and Joe that's a really important point as well I also hate watching videos I have to do regular training because I'm a home based worker I can't do the normal office fire drill manual handling etc so they send me online ones and they're all video and I switch off the video every single slide because it's 10 times faster from me and I get it so some people really love watching videos some people like me and Joe hate watching videos and it's important that we recognize that diversity we're supposed to be adding value for all not adding it for someone taking it away from others Daniel that's a really interesting one there's plenty of things to discuss in this and I think the big issue about this is the lack of practical choices so always including audio is not always sensible especially if the content that you're looking at is accessible to text-to-speech tools there are free plugins there's Google Reader which works brilliantly in Chrome select the text on the browser page and it will read to you so I don't need somebody to produce audio necessarily but at the same time I've needed to blush today and we've got Future Learn Code didn't watch the videos but read the transcripts it's exactly the same point isn't it interesting those careers point about listening to video in the background while I do other things and again I'm a real fan of radio real fan of podcasts because I can do other things as well and so it's horses for courses and sometimes in terms of revision for example if I didn't have access to audio if I didn't have access to some of the things that I download and listen to I simply wouldn't get to them because I wouldn't have enough time but if I'm taking the dog a walk or I'm going on a long journey it's a perfect opportunity so it's being able to add value wherever possible and minimize the reduction of value to other people so we're onto the last two now and I'm going to do two of these together and then leave a final couple of slides for discussion what you notice however is that our beautiful rainbow of diversity is decidedly less colorful than it was it is sad isn't it Theresa so here we've got non-reusable content this really annoys me sometimes it used to be a big problem with some of the kind of well-known repositories so you would have you would go to Joram when Joram existed and you would find in there some really nice examples of an interactive thing it was maybe created on Flash or maybe it was Articulate Storyline or something and it looks great but the only thing is you look at slide 5 and slide 5 they use terms that we don't use that are just not relevant to how I would use that I used to teach a science I think I might have mentioned that we do a lot of statistics in geography a lot of statistics in ecosystems biogeography and so on if I found a fantastic economics statistics package I would love to use it but what I would want to do is just go in there and slide 5 and slide 6 I would want to change that and make that relevant to what my students are doing that's what an open educational resource should allow you to do but so often I found that I couldn't do it because either I needed a very expensive proprietary bit of software or I found that the assets in that software weren't available separately it would have been kind of okay it would have been available in one place or a separate text file a separate image file that's a really big argument for where possible making sure that the tools you use allow disaggregation so that somebody could just take that graph out right click over the graph and save it that they can take the text, copy it and paste it somewhere else so often I've used educational resources open educational resources that are really annoying using open source tools solves the problems to a certain extent so anything that you create in Zerti for example you can give somebody that whole bundle of content and it will run as a Zerti object but equally if I just wanted to look at the images in there in the bundle result file I've had I've got all the images I've got all the audio I've got everything that I need in the media folder equally if I have my own installation straight away edit it change the pages I might or might not have so that was one of the issues the non-reusable content it looks open but because I can't reuse it it's not really as open and useful as it could be and the last one that I want to look at is when you just don't know you've got some content out there that you found and you just cannot find any information about its copyright status so this is deception 5 I don't know I think it's open I'm not quite sure and so the last you notice if I go back to that last slide we just had a couple of things a bit of audio a bit of interactivity a couple of images that were left and maybe a little bit of content over there but when I finally get to those materials that I can use with any student I have I then get to those resources and I look at them and there's no statement there's no kind of creative commons there's no this resource can be reused under these licensing conditions and so I think ah, I'm not sure actually I'll be completely true as a teacher I completely ignored that anyway and I was using all kinds of material because teachers do that we are inclined to treat, copy, write more likely than we should but the reality is if you're being a being a good responsible teacher tutor if you're a quality assurance manager you're sure you know exactly what you can do so here we are final questions then reclaiming the opportunities what can we do to reclaim those promises we said there are five digital deceptions that undermine those promises of digital diversity so it might be to do with specifying good practice it might be saying look there's a threshold requirement here you can upload stuff into the repository or you can put a license on it provided it meets these requirements maybe it's to do with metadata maybe it's to do with what I call hierarchy preferred formats where you say really the best format is Word structured Word document or maybe the best format is EPUB or maybe the best format is HTML because it's nice and non proprietary and you start specifying things like that but I don't know but I'm asking the question so can we see what you think in the text champagne I'll have a read of the other things that have been going on I'm sure Theresa will help me as there's particular questions I've missed yes there's lots of very lively contributions which is great to see I'll start it's really well appreciated session and Katherine makes a really interesting point there about people taking out of context I think that could potentially be used though in terms of the Creative Commons copywriting you could say no derivatives I guess and then make that distinction between things that you do that you are happy for people to reuse and things that you aren't happy but I do take the point that's a very fair point EPUB just like EPUB EPUB's particularly good on tablet devices and mobile phones and the like I think increasingly we're going to see EPUB as a form out of choice because the EPUB standard has got accessibility in its heart that doesn't necessarily guarantee it will be used well but it means that you have to work quite hard to create bad content particularly with EPUB 3 EPUB 3 is really accessible yes increasing that understanding of Creative Commons licensing as well isn't that important and I'm not sure how many institutions actually run support sessions to give people the opportunity to discuss things like Creative Commons licensing but we do have to be much more aware as professionals these days of the whole business of ownership and creation online yes it's a tricky one I think making people aware helping to educate people is clearly something that has a lot of benefit because if they understand how to attribute their own resources then it helps them understand how they could use others and certainly for me it's been personally been really helpful for me to begin to get my head around that but I do appreciate it's not something that you know that's high priority of any teachers I was looking at the point that Geoffrey's making about looking for open resources to support mentoring but not found very many I must admit there's been a number of occasions where I've been looking for open resources and sometimes I almost have to set myself a time limit where I say I'm going to look for educational resources for an hour for other people's resources for an hour if after that time I haven't found any I'm going to make it because otherwise I could spend I could end up spending more time looking for something that doesn't quite do the job than creating it from scratch so I think sometimes there's a pragmatic balance to come in there Joe I'm sure your materials are really great but I do take the point that quite often you find that the people that are less confident about their materials are the ones who really know what they're doing with very good materials because often the better somebody is the more exacting they are in their standards and therefore the more critical they are of their own work whereas somebody else would be less critical because they maybe have lower standards who actually owns the material that's a really interesting one I do strongly encourage people wherever they can to make things creative commons because it means that if nothing else you can reuse it yourself if you then move to another job but I do know that universities may have a slightly different perception however I think universities have an awful lot to gain by by taking an open educational resources culture I think in terms of time unless there's any specific questions that we haven't covered that you want to look at and perhaps specific to accessibility rather than necessarily creative commons or licensing I think it might be time to hand over now I think it's Teresa that I think is doing the final bit final wrap up but I may be wrong I can't remember No you're right Thank you for a really exciting and interesting we've really had a lot of conversation and discussion going on and I've got the feeling as often we do get with OpenEd SIG webinars that these conversations will continue so I'm really glad that people have found each other on Twitter as well to continue them because actually within the room we've got a lot of very experienced people in OpenEd we've got OpenScience and just looking down this list we've got an international group of people as well so that sort of feeds into the discussions around copyright and licensing and the various problems we have there and it's a good time to actually facilitate these sorts of discussions and it's also been a very contributory discussion that's going on so lots of sharing as well so that's great to see and Leo with an offer thank you for that Leo as well who's interested in collecting parties around this topic so yes let's see if we can as an OpenEd SIG continue to facilitate that and to move it on. I just prepared a little sort of just a few bullet points really from an OpenEd SIG perspective on the basis of the sorts of things you were talking about Alistair and this was really sort of multiple and I don't have any particular answers to this but it's really perhaps a way of continuing that conversation. The first is around how you've made it very clear through your wonderfully pailing rainbow as you went through your presentation just how important these pretty fundamental digital skills really are in helping access and inclusivity. I happen to be doing a future learn course which I put in the text chat earlier at the moment around inclusive practice which has provided me with some really interesting and useful information actually but it needs to be part of professionalism as teachers our digital capability is important so it's been a really timely way of reminding us of that and how important those skills and capacity building are. The second point really is from an earlier webinar that the OpenEd SIG facilitated and I'll just share a link to that and that was an event where we talked about the idea of open guilds this was an idea that was proposed by the co-chair of the OpenEd SIG at the time Terry Lone. What we were looking at there and if you do get a chance I really recommend you have a look at that webinar was how yes we understand there are kind of needles in haystacks and it's wonderful when you find them but sometimes it can be very time consuming finding them in the first place but if we have communities of practice around our disciplines or around our areas and we collaborate across sectors inside or outside of formal education context as well we have ways of bringing things together thanks to the social media tools that we have these days so the beauty of actually collecting and valuing the sharing and the conversation around open educational resources I think Humbox which was University of Southampton and it's a smaller little sister as well, language's box as a methodology for collecting OERs was really helpful in fostering that idea of community because it had that social aspect as well as just the resource so I think there are examples of good practice there and the proposal for guilds was a little bit like an apprenticeship model within perhaps a craft where you recognize each other's skills and you learn from each other so I think it might be worth revisiting that and talking about whether this is an idea that has legs the third point is one of the things we're trying to do at the moment in the coming year of the Open Eds League is to try and draw together the many strands of open because we've actually got sort of separate open communities and we started a little project together just earlier on this week actually trying to visualize the various communities that exist around the word open we started this little padlet that I'll share here and I think it just shows you just how many different communities with slightly different emphases that there are out there but they share a value system which is about inclusivity very largely it's a values driven set of priorities so you've got there the idea of open standards and the importance of not allowing people to get locked into certain hardware the open source movement and just how useful that is to help support inclusivity it's not I'm very aware that we tend to sort of bang on sometimes about open source as Alistair I think sort of alluded to it doesn't answer all of our problems but it is actually built on a model of collaboration and learning from each other so one of the things we're trying to do is just to help facilitate that discussion and in a future open ed sick webinar we're going to be inviting people from these various communities to see what we can do to actually identify and perhaps communicate more effectively to policy makers that value set that we take so seriously and that anybody who cares about accessibility and openness takes very seriously and then finally and perhaps a bit too philosophically but one of the things that's quite dear to my heart is that you know we're all very busy people we have things on our list that we have to achieve and and that sort of drives us into kind of a mentality that is fairly closed I have to teach these people this stuff by this time open practice actually challenges that and makes us think about you know what's going to come out of what's the outcomes of this lesson that actually could be enhanced by being more open more visible so I'm encouraging some way of encouraging people to have that open mindset more often and I think we tend to see it in sectors as well we tend to think you know why would somebody in HEB interested in something that's come from SE and vice versa well actually you know there are conversations there and we can improve and enhance what we do by understanding other people's approaches so we have in our midst one of Alts Learning Technologists of the Year Daniel Scott here and I know from sort of doing some work with him on his blog post just how much I learned from his from his practices and you know I think there's so much we can learn from each other and certainly we've learned a great deal from you today Alistair and I'm really really grateful for your contribution and so the session that you facilitated here that really has had people thinking and will continue I'm sure to think along these lines and will continue I hope to engage with yourself and with Bob on Twitter and cross some of these borders in order to find a fairer way of delivering education Thank you very much, thank you to everybody for coming on such a glorious day and I shall think of you all when I'm out on the water in an hour's time Beautiful, I'll have a lovely time and I shall look out for the subsequent high queue and yes I'm sure that will be excellent and thank you all for coming Yes, thanks everybody for coming, thanks Joe as well I can see that's really really good to have you there and I know a lot of you who have been engaging in the open-ed sig just male discussions we're having at the moment. Thanks all very much This has been the open-ed sig and cell tag and I'm going to switch the recording off now.