 Okay, you are in field guide to caring for developer 2.0. Your speaker is Allison Tarr. Allison is a feminist in the introverts and a front-end developer who fully discussed this resource with mental health. She loves rock-n-rolly, boom-a-boops, and belly-parking, not necessarily out of order. As a result of her own experience combating stigma, Allison encourages more local conversation to provide additional resources to create safe spaces and sustainable spaces. Now working as an independent developer, she's been able to think cautiously to better health while advocating for changing how the tech industry approaches the mental health of the brand. So please join me in welcoming Allison Tarr. I love principal, thank you so much for joining me at the end of the day. I know you've had a lot of absorption of material and a lot of interaction, I know. As you mentioned that I'm an introvert, so I was like, you made it, everybody. We're going to go the distance, I'll see you all at the end of the morning, and then we'll all go home and crash. So while I'm talking to Tarr, I appreciate you coming out. So first, I kind of live for the developer, but really it's a bit more expansive than that. It's just the tech industry as a whole. So whether you're a developer or a designer, I think a lot of these things still speak to the industry at that part rather than just if you do cover them. And so first off, what we're going to talk about is that we're going to go over some statistics. We're going to go over some of the why's and how we can work towards changes in community. And it will be so dry, we'll have to make statistics. Tarr's the right amount of sprinkle with it. I'm biased, so there we go. So, hello, I'm Allison. You've already heard a little bit about me. You can follow me on social media and across the board with Allison Tarr. Some code, some feminism, avocado, belly part of the content, so if you're warned, it's a bit of a mishmash. I'm a feminist, I'm a writer, obviously a mental health advocate, many things. And one of the things that I want to go over before we dive in is that I don't know if anyone that is familiar with the podcast called Struggle Less. It's a podcast about appeals, so it's like right up my alley. Definitely my little house. But they have kind of a disclaimer at the beginning. So I'm not a doctor, a psychologist, a trained health professional, that matter. I'm just someone with early experience with mental health. So my qualifications are that I have a lot of feelings and opinions. And so none of those are a substitute for professional guidance. So on some of my content that's going to my personal story, symptoms and as such, I'm aware that like, depending on your own experience or where you're at or your own, or your own history could be potentially triggering. So if you realize at some point, this talk is just not your jam, you're just not happy with it. Feel free to use it as an exit, not about that, but you don't feel pressured to say, I won't give up at all. Just have to do what you do and take care of yourself. So a little bit more about me and my qualifications and freedom was talking to the forefront. I did not always work in tech, my background was in the arts. I had sort of a smattering of different job titles before I went into tech. I was a political teacher and then into the Puppet Studio. It's a winding road. So clearly I just coaxed that in its sacks, right? That's just a direct line from Puppets to coaxes. But I'm here because I want to help people feel less alone. I think it's not something that's discussed enough. I want to break down the stigma of talking about mental health and I want to bring it more to the fore of the community, especially within tech because in tech I find that there are certain things that are normalized and brought forward as a standard which don't necessarily need to be and that don't benefit people in the long term as far as sustainability. So as mentioned, I have lived experience in mental health. It started when I was a teenager and for a while I was written off as like typical teenage angst, I would say. So sort of just like, oh, check out this bill. It's just like I was having that like ACV, testing and valuing this time, shall we say. And maybe to be a joint grant is certainly not an easy road regardless of whether or not you're dealing with additional issues. But I thought that what I was dealing was normal because people around me normalized it as a phase that eventually would be over, which was good news for me at the time, but unfortunately it wasn't taken seriously in the way that I got immediate support to help. That being said, I was lucky enough and privileged enough that my support systems eventually were like, this isn't shifting and it's getting worse and worse. I thought of the thoughts of like suicidal ideation and things that I was thinking were normal and I just thought that I wasn't as strong as everyone else was. Because everyone was just like, this is a typical teenage thing. And I just was thinking, well everyone else must be having these thoughts too and we're just dealing with that fine or like trying out for teens, they're just dealing with it. For some reason I'm not able to, but really what I did was, is that well my thoughts were much different than like the typical teenage thought process and it was much more for the banks than all that. But that makes that ideally internalized to be, oh it's just me, like I'm just not strong enough to deal with whatever else seems to be fine, but like part of the course. And once diagnosed things became even a little more complicated. I was lucky enough to receive a diagnosis which I know there's a bit of pros and cons to receiving diagnosis from people. Like being put in a box is necessarily an ideal, but it's for me it was a beneficial thing because I, my mindset was like, I was raised with like, oh once you give a name to something, it's a lot more clear like where you can take it, it's a lot more clear like where we can move in this and there's probably a solution and some things will like, again, debug, I can figure this out. But the adults around me, their reaction was more complicated because basically I was told to not talk about it when they went, just like okay well now you have this thing, but like don't tell me all about it, don't mention it in your college essay or like applications, don't just like get this theory and they did it from a place of love because they knew that potential reactions and how people react, but also having that post on you from Grants in your life has like a long lasting effect as far as where do you then take that experience and again that internalization and the stigma of like oh wait, we're not supposed to talk about these things, it's just something that, maybe you talk about with your doctor, you're lucky and then you move on to sort of cope with it as you go. So I was told not to discuss it with anyone and that obviously helped with the last thing I know. So all of a sudden I had this issue and I wanted to work towards solving it, solving it. But instead I had to keep quiet about it and so that just added to the soft stigma. And so I had this diagnosis or diagnoses and within that I just, I feel like, and this kind of goes into the tech industry as a whole as well as far as identity, we're so reliant on our brains for our day to day. And that's how we make our money, is being able to solve puzzles, get to the bottom of our problems, like just really like get to the bottom of untangling these different things. But we're also so much more than that. So it's like we have these different parts of our identities that don't necessarily come up in our day to day as we code or as we disseminate or as we project manage. But there are these things that do come into play where it's like I'm more than just my diagnoses, I'm somewhat with depression and anxiety, with bipolar, but I'm also all these other things. And so since there's, with as with many people with mental health issues, and I have to acknowledge here that it's important to remember that mental health issues could be a diagnosis or it could be a situational phase. You could have had a loss. It could be something that's less what they would think to a long-term or chronic or ongoing and more situational. And that's still something that you don't necessarily need a quote-unquote proper diagnosis for and it's still a very valid experience. So like most people, we've been really asked to add to this story. So most recently a few years ago, I had a relapse which resulted in me attempting suicide and then being hospitalized. And that was a major wake-up call for me because I realized that you need to increase my vigilance around self-care and be a lot more aware as far as outside influences as well as my, what I was like promoting out or I would say for self-care. And maintaining a certain level of call in my own life and making deliberate choices and how I would carry those out with actual actions rather than being like my core values are X, Y, and Z. I can check from Toronto. So my core values are X, Y, and Z. And how do I want to relate those forward and actual and actionable tasks? And so that being said, I've had so many good times in the past few years. I traveled to New York and saw my brother, he married me. I have a niece now. I celebrated my birthday in New York City. I was at the Hartman Concert, which was maybe the closest to a religious experience I'll ever have. And I think none of these things I would have seen as possible, but I was in the depths of that place, of that darkness. And it's important to me because I deal with it every day and it also adds additional shifts to my day-to-day. And it did when I worked for an agency, it did when I worked for a small business and it still does now that I work for myself. And more so, I noticed it when I moved into the tech space because not all of those, the expectations of the tech space were not necessarily drastically different than that, say like another bank or another type of industry. But there were certain expectations there that made it even more difficult for me to adapt into and bring those elements of self-care into play. And it's also important, and I think it's, I just want everyone to talk about it more because I think, I know that it's not just me and I know that the first step is having these conversations and teaching people vocabulary, that how to talk about it and how to feel comfortable talking about it. Because that's the case a lot of the times, people just don't know where to begin, even though we kind of identify the people that's like, I know that these are the kinds of people to have these conversations with, but the people that you also know are saying that they just don't have the intel to take it further. So our communities and young tech industry, these are real issues that just aren't what you talked about. So one in five is that for the number of adults who are living with mental illness at any given moment of time, and that's not necessarily diagnosed, they could also be situational. So chances are, you don't consciously know someone in your life, I could be a woman in five. I'm an Allison. And now we're friends. I don't work 500,000 people in this working tree to do their right to help with you. And that's a lot of missing work. And these are just, keep in mind that all these statistics are from people volunteering as information. So these are people who are owning up to this rather than the actual statistics. So this could very well be a fraction of the actual people who are not owning up to the actual reasons for the missing work. So it's estimated that more than 50 billion dollars is the cost of the absenteeism and productivity. So whether health entails lower total medical costs and even if we don't want to, I don't want to make a blatant statement of about you, since we're all at a work camp, I feel like real human-to-human people as far as relating empathy. And even if you don't want to take it as a person-to-person hearing level, the cost of doing business, you're losing money by not supporting any of these values and endeavors within your employees. It benefits your employees to know that their contributions are value in a way where they're able to take care of their own needs and so they can actually keep contributing about your business and support us. So why don't we want to talk about it? We don't want people to think we're less than and I totally get that. I don't win this duffel, it's upside down. Like that's embarrassing. Yeah, I feel like I should have at least tried that. Wow. But we don't want people to think we don't know things. And so so much of our self-worth can often be tied to what we do when it's about knowing the code, about knowing we're positioning ourselves as the experts of our own start to meet. What you're using is that not getting to know all the things. And most of the time it would be super crazy if you didn't know all the things. It'd be kind of rough to hand out, yeah. And we all have our different strengths and weaknesses and that's what makes a strong team a strong team is being able to fill in those gaps and collaborate. And moments of varying lengths where we all doubt where we can look at these and our other team members are able to like lift us up in those moments and show us our strengths. So people aren't used to talking about it like I mentioned because they aren't very sure where to be yet, what questions to ask or if it's okay to discuss with you. And also if I can point out that sometimes it's not appropriate to talk about it in workplace. Like it's not your place to be asking those personal questions. And depending on the team structure and everything like it just might not be an appropriate thing. That being said, there's a difference between like being a bit intrusive and then or just asking someone how they're doing. And like genuinely hearing and having them be like oh I'm having a rough day. We're having some of the vocalists. Oh like are you feeling better? Yeah, I was having a rough day off when I'm back at business. Because I wouldn't have many issues being like oh I had a migraine and I couldn't come in. But having that extra comfort to be able to say yeah I just really needed to take a day for myself and I'm back, I'm ready, I'm like ready to go. The state of mental illness is that it comes with a sense that you shouldn't have it to be there. So that it's a bit self-indulgent or emotional competence or lazy of Adam. There's like tons of negative extras we can attach to it. So and oftentimes without the invisibility of the bit, without physical signs and symptoms people don't meet those new passions because we're so used to needing to see something to have to be able to prevent. And again that being said, so much physical symptoms can manifest from actual mental health issues. So awkward eyes, what does that mean? I saw so many people's faces drawn and I was like hey mom, don't worry because it's not that participatory. So how do people here wear contacts for glasses? I can see some of you are wearing glasses so don't feel like you can hide and be excited to be wearing my glasses today. So has anyone ever asked you would you just try staring at a marker? Would you try squinting? And then you wouldn't need glasses. I don't reach as far as comparison but as far as people approaching you and being like oh I mean like I was like no, I forgot something. Ask me if I've ever heard kale which is, that was a hilarious one for me because also I'm just like haven't you not heard kale this morning? It's everywhere. I've enjoyed it myself for lunch and it's delicious. I'm not into kale that way. All the records. So anyway, a bit of a reach but that's the sort of similarity of, we have expectations of certain things being fixable and certain things not. We take glasses, it's like of course, you get glasses, you make some correctional and then we move on. It's not, it's not anything to squint harvest on. Of these and other statistics they're also all feelable on how some help that work. And I'm not a designer so I just use this dramatic for various, this is a bit much, I don't know, I don't know. This is just a third problem, this is just a third problem in the 2016 survey, so across the time of 2017 I was like I'll do, this is Ted you're gonna put our formerly discussed mental health, like as a policy campaign or either a children's education and then the most places of business where it fell. So most of the players haven't, I see even the formal conversation, they don't have a policy in place, they haven't even mentioned it. And this one, I know the difference in numbers between the mental and physical here as well as the makes, because the difference in like, do you think it's got some mental health disorder with your employer or physical health disorder? The unshorterness of how to anticipate your employer or react also is really telling to me because that can be really disabling when reaching out for help or support. So the things that as someone with a mental health issue you're entitled to under reasonable accommodation, like a crisis attack, a high turnover race and people running out, it's not sustainable. The industry is expanding on an incredible rate which is great, or I think it's great. But it means people who are experienced to keep those rules of motion and people who are experienced to maintain levels of effectiveness in order to keep continued knowledge sharing. The tech industry won't be able to rely on an influx of new developers who work hard to the metal, work so hard, get burned out and then never get to the level of passing it forward and being senior jobs and lead jobs and passing down that knowledge to the new tech people. Elements of the tech industry that specifically lead to potential stressors, compressed deadlines, ambitious goals setting, certain stages last longer than anticipated so your pick-off is delayed but then your deadlines don't shift for some reason and the assets or feedback are given but those expectations still stay in place. Ambitious goals setting is a work towards meeting goals that are outside of your comfort zone whether that's skills related or time related. The constant review of work is something that I think comes up across the board whether you're a designer or a developer personally invested in your work it doesn't have to be a bad thing and how the review is handled and having that constant scrutiny it's really important to have it handled in a certain way and have that really clear-cut communication. Especially for freelance or co-workers and frequency back can really translate to self-doubt as well so if you're not, if you're in your own little vortex you can get real unsure, real vast about the current state of things because you don't have that present feedback. Also because you work with technology people assume who are constantly handed, constantly. I have to, I've lived on and telling two years ago, but I've just completely tried to avoid that. It can feel like we're on haul a lot of the time and this might contain more different answers as well because we're going through constant waves and if you're in a drought you might feel the pressure to respond more quickly because your account's been slow so it's a weekend, but it's still in response gotta get that hassle to it, gotta respond. This is a quote that no one's ever said. I totally understand all the latest technology systems and workflows in my industry and I think that the pressure to, we're at, everything is so constantly changing and it's important to keep up on the current state of things but it's also like jumping from a virus. You really have to get used to your age. Things are really interesting and inspiring. Otherwise, you'll get overwhelmed and by thinking and choosing you just basically won't choose you won't choose anything by choosing that name. Think it's better. So what is burnout? I have the opinion that burnout, because as anyone, you've called for the term burnout, floating around? Yes. I have the opinion that burnout is kind of a term that's mass creating as terms for larger mental health issues, it's easier to save burnout. It's just even though it's often depression as I stress this usually. So it can't be attributed to just one component. It can be a combination of many different things. Again, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a diagnosical thing. It's more like whether it's already situations where they expect to mention themselves. They never feel the work that they're doing is good enough. It's an advocacy, they'll never appreciate it. Having unreasonable demands placed upon them and our current roles that just aren't a big fit. Diminishability to take pleasure from activities. Difficulty absorbing new information for that hidden function and that worsening short-term memory. And also a lower ability to handle stress and issues that you might normally wouldn't face from. And this can connect with physical manifestations. So fatigue, headaches, irritability, reduced efficiency, and then increased errors. So burnout is more acceptable than the symptoms of mental illness generally. And then one of the things with the tech industry is that hard work beginning passion is over-emphasized. I'm really passionate about code, I love it. But I also like to think about other things. And I still care about code and I'm still super passionate. But I do like to poke out. The state that I am taking time to recharge on vacation, to take those health upgrades, to go set up in the front of the fresh air. Those people's jobs can happen right there. And so more and more of a time than themselves is in support or in courage. That it's a slippery slope when you let those happen. So Google did some interesting studies about what makes you good at thinking. And these were the five keys to a successful team. Psychological safety, dependability, structure and career, meaning of work, and then those are sort of self-explanatory. But psychological safety is one that we'll get into a bit later. So for this, these are just a cream of binary, true confession, of four job resources and good jobs. So for instance, lack of social support, the job control of not getting that feedback or just a little time pressure again. Good job resources, there's participation, there's a variety of things. You have autonomy or the choices that you're gaining, potential for qualification and support for colleagues. So there are ways of keeping up the don't fall workouts. Yes. The strategies that we can implement to those experiencing ongoing mental health issues also support those who are experiencing burnout or are on the verge of burnout. And then those off the overlap. So here are some strategies to test your goals. So it's important for psychological safety. You want it to, oh, that's fun. That's not a type of thing. So you want to be clear with your areas that still require explanation and that each team members and what matters. You want to create things that this is a puzzle, this is a new problem or a new problem. It's just a puzzle to solve. A combination of psychological safety and accountability is vital for teams to achieve their own potential. And it's really important to mark my favorite leaders in all of my jobs have done the modeling curiosity. They've asked a lot of questions as well as they've acknowledged that I'm not looking. There's nothing I know more than working when people were like, I don't remember doing that. I need to Google it and just be like, yes. We're all going, no way. That's an important thing to remember for helping those around you. You want to set boundaries. Know the person that's available to you as an employee. Take your vacation, please. And always come down to me when I work with people who didn't take all our vacation things. Communicate empathy and improve the model of your self-care strategies. I think that's the most important, especially if it's modeling on the top there. But if you don't properly use others, you need to sustain yourself first. Learning to be comfortable with saying that is also going to be about your degree. So don't worry, I'm not going to read it all. TLDR, I just was like, I can't choose to swipe away. Basically, sum up to get more effectively, prioritize your strengths and energy in a way that amplifies your efforts. So to help someone to the maximum that I would like to help them, I have to conserve my energy and other ways. And then I'm most efficient in the ways that I do not help people. I do remember reading it there, but I don't know through. Also, set aside time for learning. A seven-ideos or freelancers, I set aside a chunk of time. It's usually on Friday mornings or afternoons at the end of the week. Where I set aside my schedule of things that interest me, that I want to, it's good first, so it has been lately good. Because otherwise, I don't have the tenacity to do it out of hours and be sustainable as a person and still continue my work. So as I integrated it in part of my work day, I feel like not only am I respecting those factors for myself, but I'm teaching it as work to myself and I also take it more seriously versus that like puttering work. I have to train a lot for taking big cameras. Switch up working environments, co-working space maybe, if a coffee shop is really important. Also, non-pervasive interaction, very important. Make sure you keep up regular social engagements, but I refer to my non-tax friends as civilians. Like some civilian interaction goes a long way, whether or not it's just like you need that for a walk after work. So non-pervasive interaction. Uh-huh. Client matters should be around communication. Choose one, stick to it. I refer to friends who text, email, face cam, Slack, all with the same client. No, no, no, no, just choose one. Also, this texting business, don't text with clients. Just keep it all in like a brief spread somewhere. Like, concerns me. Seek out your questions and support us. If you don't have a little nice little pod of people to read them for, I totally recommend it. Once you're in that order text, you just want to reach out to someone and be like, I need help with this issue or like, oh, it's me slowly, what am I doing? And they get a five. Similar to remote work, it's easy for seeing the doubt to your own. We're working within our own little bubbles. So that building a community, it's difficult to know what's normal or not. So you need to set the dates. You need to set your own normal and know what's right for you. Some employee strategies. Lunch and lunch or training sessions. So the expectations of people keeping up to pace with the industry aren't placed outside of ours. Pre-mortems and like most post-mortems from projects. Pre-mortems being like the project management stage where you talk about potential stomach blocks and things that you're worried about, things that you want to go over ahead of time that concern you. And then post-mortems where it's just like, it's not on the spot, you actually need to create a real safe space. The special code reviews. Celebrating non-feature work. So even if it's not something that necessarily would be like, check out this trust hands feature. Just celebrating everybody's work, even if it wasn't particularly jazzy. Credit dialogue with management is probably the most important thing. And management modeling would be yours. So management taking a mental health day. That would speak hugely. Like that would be such a great time. Also something else is fine for the future. So if your company can maybe do that and have that for part of their continued learning track that would be a great thing. So what are you going to do as a community? What are you going to do in mind of that? So you can raise your adversity, challenge stigma of talking about feelings, reduce stigma of agitation and disclosure, and support others in a sustainable fashion. And some of these strategies go fully to health. Stigma is going to prevent people from reaching out for help. And everybody needs such ranging different types of help. So I know support needs to portion in and out of the world. And quality of life. None of that is really what we want for our friends, our colleagues, our family. By creating spaces where it's okay for people to be vulnerable and to approach people for help and ask for those supports. We can then work on strengthening the supports that are provided. So a volunteer organization called resourcing of the office. And they do have some great resources they have for us. And also these three books that are geared towards employees and employers and then your HR professionals. And they're doing what you can and will do for mine. But they are really helpful as far as potential guidelines. And I know that management in particular has found to be generally helpful because they often don't know where to begin. So it's a nice starting point. That goes off. So we're taking the time to evaluate the issue. Whether you're doing something that's more long term or a bit situational or symptoms of a larger issue. It's important to take some time to look into it and reach out to support. Because we deserve to be happy and helpful. Because we're not just a co-worker community. I don't care about everybody. We've got all about fields. These are our resources. And if you're in need of further resources, I also have crazy amounts of academic documentation. I need to add a few more to realize to this list. Yeah, if you have new resources for something specific, feel free to reach out to me. And thank you. And also, as an entrepreneur, I also realized that I also say, any questions, I'm not the person that asks questions at the end of the talk. But I will be around to after this. And without the after purchase, I need to know the question. Or if you just want to fly totally anonymous and you know or tweet at me, I don't even need to know it's you. Thank you for coming. Literally to the end. Literally to the end of the talk. So we've got time for Q&A, if you have questions. I think it's a scared-full-off question. I hear a lot of questions, but they're worth it. What's W.P. Huggs? W.P. Huggs. W.P. Huggs is something started by a guy named me of South Africa. And there's a Slack channel, and it's specifically for WordPress and mental health. But I think it's because it's kind of a small version of people. And then I think we all kind of got busy. Busy freelancers. We haven't had much time to put back into it. But yeah, I recommend joining Slack community as well. So I got to have a quiet, but quiet. If you find tech industry might be more, I guess, explained in a bad way, individuals who might be virtually abusive, or emotionally abusive, if they're anything like that. Yes, I do find tech industry to be more common. I think a lot of things get sled, like a lot of things slide in exchange for that rock star developer vibe, unfortunately. I don't really know the solution to it. That it's not worth it, because I feel like they're kind of people with the same skillset. I just don't think that they are as loud as those other people. So I don't think that oftentimes in the pipeline that comes forward. Yeah, but you see some people feel like a lot of bullshit. Yeah, and I think something that I've suggested a few of my friends' workplaces have started integrating is workshops and non-violent communication. And also because I don't think this allows people to potentially learn to communicate differently. It also really highlights individuals who are struggling with communicating to their team members in a certain way to management as well as their coworkers and people aren't able to follow the exercises in those patterns. And it kind of has brought a sense of awareness to those situations where they're like, oh, that's just so-and-so being so-and-so. I don't use real names. I don't know if that's any name I can use. I'm like, oh, no. I'm not thinking of a real person. If that's just so-and-so being so-and-so, it's still not tolerable, because if they're not treating their team members with the respect they deserve, it's not creating that psychological safety at all. And if you feel that any suggestion that you bring to the table is going to be critiqued, why would you need to bring a potential problem to the forefront if you know that you're immediately going to have something like, oh, I don't think so, because if you're going to be blamed potentially, it's like, why am I going to tell them this is going to be a problem? I'm like, it's not a safe space. The thing is also, too, is indicative of us to, as employees, be more tolerant of dealing with people with that in our industry, and sticking around in places like that too long versus saying management is not dealing with this, I should look for something else. I know I have personally experienced my problem too long in places like that, where I really should have left, because the environment wasn't indicative to what I was. And I've done the same work. And there's a difference as well, Jean, because you stick around and perhaps you voice concerns, and you want to see change, so it's like you have that little get-a-roo, OK, well, I'm going to wait to see what's instigated and what actually happens. But then I've also been in a situation where you do that, and you wait, and you're like, OK, I think my patience had on, like, in a minute. But when change isn't actually instigated, then I think the same is still sticking around, because it's just, I don't know, it's maybe just have the, it's more painful to see the potential for change and just not have them fall off the ground when you're having an other way, rather than that one thing. Yeah, it definitely has to, there's so much that has to come from, I believe, the management level to trickle down, unfortunately, like whether it's modeling behaviors or the tolerance level of certain types of communication or counter-advance. I mean, like I'm going to lay to what you're saying, I have the owner of your company working for you, I don't even want to work for your boss, he's so cruel and nasty, I wouldn't want to work for him, like, but you expect me to? Yeah, what? You're like, this is a counter-advance. That's, and that's an interesting, it's an interesting thing to probably call you, because the fact that they would want to hire someone and they see that, like, because to them, there's value there somewhere, but to have that somehow, I don't know, it's not overpowered by those other things that are so creative, which is interesting. And that's, I guess, the like finding a place where the values are actionable, they're actually walking the walk that they talk about, they're just talking to each other, to their own, but they're in it. Helen, do you have any questions? I have a question. Any other questions? How do you rate them to, like, S5 to your boss, how do you rate them? As far as the form and the tolerance? Yeah. I would totally recommend open source mental illnesses and handouts for that. It's a good kind of, I would say, a non-confrontational way of just being like, hey, here are these things, and it doesn't become a personal issue, so much as, like, these are some things, it falls in line with the nation's standard of, like, people of Caucasian, and, like, I want an HR to know more about it. Or you can have me send it to the public, I don't know, honestly, which I've totally done for people, I'm like, hi, I'm part of the awesomest outreach team. But I might not be good because if, if there's nerves around opening the conversation from the beginning, it's really great to present it just from a standpoint of, like, hey, I thought this was really cool for the company, as a whole, rather than making it more of an individual, like, with two fingers or whatever, just feels more safe, I think, for everybody. And they don't feel, also, that you're critiquing how they are around doing things. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Well, I'll just kiss him.