 Good evening everybody and thank you for joining us tonight. My name is Shira Ganz and I'm the senior executive director of policy and programs here at the New York City mayor's office of media and entertainment. For those of you who are not familiar with our office. New York, the mayor's office of media and entertainment or as we call it mom is the city's agency that supports all the creative sectors in New York City, but the main reason we really exist is to support film and television production in the city. So film and television production is a huge driver not only of culture but also the economy for New York, it supports 185,000 jobs and 81.6 billion in economic output. So we support film and television production by permitting on location production, but we also have a program which I direct called NYC film green and film green provides a sustainable roadmap for productions who want to reduce their environmental impact. We give strategies and approaches for how to decarbonize and reduce waste, and we also provide free resources like tonight's series our office hours series where we delve into different topics relating to sustainable production. So tonight I'm really excited for a topic we're going to be talking about how to design and construct sustainable set. So before I bring on our awesome expert panelists I'm just going to set the table a little bit. So I think we all know our film folks on the call today but film creates these immersive worlds really through the sets that are designed and constructed could be dozens and dozens of sets per production. They're massively resource intensive productions to do that from the present from the perspective mostly for the studios and the producers. Once that show wraps all the contents of those sets have served their purpose and they become waste. So generally due to a lack of knowledge timing budget all the things that go into what make movies so exciting all the, all the tight timelines there's not generally planning on what to do with those materials to give them a second life. So just to give a little bit of context for the scale we're talking about. We estimate that each New York City production sends to landfill 6030 yard dumpsters containing 250 tons of everything that might include furniture clothing appliances lumber and on and on. So on average there's 80 production shooting in New York City. Once you think about that that's 20,000 tons annually that could be reused but instead go to landfills. So today we're going to dive into this conversation about what the problem is exactly what are the challenges why is this happening and what are some of the solutions to try to mitigate this impact. I'm going to introduce the panelists and then we'll bring them on or actually why don't we bring them on and then I'll introduce them so I guess everyone can turn on their cameras. Okay, so we have a new shorts. He's an art director and production designer as production design and chair of the system sustainability committee USA 829. He's dedicated to moving the industry towards circularity and a more sustainable future. And he was nominated for an Emmy for his role as supervising art director for Fosse verdant on fx, as well as receiving art director guild award nominations for Fosse verdant, Netflix maniac and Warner Brothers Gotham. Pippa Cole pepper is a set decorator who has been creating sets for film TV and other media for nearly 20 years, having worked on award winning projects for major studio streamers and independence Pippa is well versed in sourcing across all budget levels and developing both period and contemporary interior styles. Behind the scenes her work is informed by a career of experiencing environmental policy at all levels and in multiple countries, including designing events for environmental campaign groups. Matt Denstag is a co president and an owner of the noble number, the noble lumber a family business that has been primary, the primary supplier of set construction materials to the New York film and television industry since 1965. Matt has been with a company for 30 years and has focused on forging partnerships with organizations dedicated to combating deforestation, providing sustainable materials and implementing eco friendly practices. Denise flinch volunteer coordinator for material arts. Denise works to discover individuals and companies who may want to give back to the community by volunteering with materials for the arts. In her first year Denise has helped to increase corporate volunteering, as well as financial donations to friends of materials for the arts. And finally coming out of retirement just to join us today. We have Nick Miller, who's a construction coordinator, Nick has spent his entire working life building sets and scenery, moving to New York Nick worked an off off Broadway and off Broadway theater culminating as a technical director for the Manhattan theater club, moving to New York Nick worked in off. Oops. Yes, sorry. Nick then moved to the film world where he was a construction coordinator for over 30 years, his credits include gilded age the woman in the window the OA, and so many more. So I just want to thank everybody for joining us. We have a very expert panel as you can all tell. So I think I'm just going to kick it off with the question for the folks I think more in the production world then we'll get some of our other speakers. What is the best tool strategy you have in your role to mitigate waste and promote circularity. I will kick it to a new first. Thanks, Sarah. It's really nice introduction and thanks for hosting. So, the tools that I use that the work that I've done with the committee have helped to develop some tools for geared toward our directors and production designers, and we're in a sort of unique position. So it really starts with the art department when it comes to set construction when it comes to set construction because we're the ones who are designing and ultimately creating the sets that are being built that then, you know, become essentially single use products and sent to landfills. So it really starts with the art department when it comes to set construction. So in a sort of gap in the studio system if you work for the studios and making films. There's a lot of emphasis lately around creating a circularity in the film industry, although we lack infrastructure. So in the absence of the infrastructure. I have found that we, there are tools that we can do personally within our own departments to help that. And the things that I find that are lacking is clear directive from the studios on what to do with the sets. There's a lot of information around fuel consumption and EV cars and utilizing current technologies to reduce your carbon footprint. What I think there's a gap in understanding is that building sets has creates emissions in a secondary way through the vendors that we use and scope, scope three, I would say. So as a production designer as an art director what I try to do is utilize a sort of thought process and a culture to around sustainability, because it's the only thing I really can do right now. I do think that there, I'm hopeful that the size of the problem is so big that we will get some directives from the studios around set construction. Oftentimes as you mentioned at the top of your introduction, time and money is always an issue. Every production is siloed, even if you work within a studio system. So you have separate budgets and productions are can only work within that budget. Whereas most major studios have sustainability departments. I find it's not really reaching us at the level at the design level at the beginning and starting from laying out your sets and knowing where that sets going to go before you swing a hammer. But that is the most important thing. So, again, I think I've tried to create systems. I did create a document that through the work of the committee, we've hired a consultant firm called green spark group. They helped us do some analytics and helped us develop some language around working sustainably within an art department. And I believe you have it you can drop it in the chat. And so it's an introduction about what the work that we do as a committee. And I also think coalition building is important. So our email is in there, reach out, say hello. You have any ideas. We're always welcome to hear them. So, so yeah, I guess what I'm hearing I think this comes up in a lot of just across the board in the work world is sometimes we think it's really technical but it's really just like planning ahead and making sure that people are communicating and kind of sounds like in your role you're sort of bridging maybe studios or folks that some of the people on the set might not actually interact with and really making sure these broader ideas or ESG policies translate. And so I guess Nick you're the person who then you are swinging the hammer right after a new has laid out this vision so for Wishing but what would you say are the best tools or strategies once you're you've been given this plan like what do you do. Well I think, as on who said, a lot of this has to do with what happens in the very beginning. And I would say that my biggest tool in my toolbox for this is my position and experience to be able to make sure that the construction is properly funded. And this speaks to, as we all know an inherent problem within our world that the studios and producers lean on us to be economical. When it's time to strike a set or restore location or anything like that. There are problems there that don't allow us to be economical. And that's a very hard thing to do so I really try to the nail to fight for properly budgeted construction budgets to be able to do that at the end. And if we don't have it then it makes it very, very difficult to do anything. So that's that's really my biggest tool. So but let's say you get your budget it's like the dream set and then with that budget what do you do at the end. What would that extra funding allow you to to do in a show wraps. The strange thing is with the sets that we build to deconstruct them, they are built to be deconstructed to begin with. So we can end up with a lot of architectural elements, you name it doors windows milled moldings, have an entry staircases fireplace mantle, you name it. There's a lot of stuff that is there that can be put to good use on other productions. As I said we don't have the infrastructure here in New York that at least used to exist in LA. I don't think it does as much as it used to. But we need a place to put it to bring it to what we do have. And one of the things I relished was the communication that we have even with producers production managers production office coordinators their bulletin boards that would announce hey we have a set that's coming down. We have this material if anybody would like it, contact us. The other thing which we do a lot of whenever we build a stage set. Most of the time it's going to be on a deck. It's comprised of two things a floor system and the legging to leg up the deck to a certain level. That material and be reused quite a bit. And that's one of the things that we encourage producers and production managers to put the word out there and then we do it as well amongst ourselves with other construction coordinators to try to, you know, reuse this stuff. But I think what on who spoke to about not having the infrastructure is a very big problem in New York and it is a New York centric problem. Okay, so we're hearing communication planning budgets, which brings me to Pippa. So, Pippa, you're the person who wants a news kind of visualize it next built it you're bringing it out to life you're doing all the set decorations all the props and everything. And I could be wrong you can correct me if that's too big of a scope. So tell me what's the best kind of tools you use to like how do you visualize circularity or sustainability when you're doing your work. There is a certain amount of circularity that's already built into what I do, because when often when we're doing a drama that's character led you don't necessarily need us want or need a set that a brand new stuff so we have a tendency to buy a lot of things second hand. And also, in the same way that Nick talks to his colleagues about who needs decking material. For instance, I'm starting a show now over the next two days I'm visiting several other set decorators for a closing down shows to see if we can absorb any of their stock and reuse their stock helps them out because it gets them out of their shop faster, and because it gives us a base layer of material work on saying that every project we do is incredibly different has different needs different sets locations characters. So the very the diversity of things that we need to acquire is is pretty great which means we need to cast a net far and wide. Also, what works against us and for us a lot of times it's time, we have a tendency to start sourcing locally first, just so we can get it quicker, and we don't need to send the truck out over two states over in order to pick something up. We don't have to wait a week for it to get shipped. But, but also with that comes budget and New York and space and one of the problems that New York has is it just doesn't have enough space. A lot of our vendors do not hold stock in New York City. We have a tendency to favor the vendors that do for mainly for speed reasons. So we know we have a short list of vendors that hold carpet hold tile, hold electrical components that we can go to. But if it's something special we need to go further away. A lot of our furniture comes from South Carolina at this time of the year if I need garden furniture I have to go to Florida. A lot of stuff sometimes comes from California and ironically it comes from from the props houses in California that the studios run. So a lot of times when a studio will do a movie here and they want to save the sets because it has value to them has assets so for for accounting purposes they need to keep it as opposed to get rid of it. They will put it in a tractor trailer and then they will truck it back to their warehousing in LA because they do not have warehousing in New York City. Now saying that they put in a prop house in LA which means I can go to LA I can pull it and I get loaded back in the trailer and it comes all the way back to New York so I can reuse it again. And that's just one of the realities of living in a city where space is incredibly expensive. Yeah so I kind of this is again to the idea that we serve as some of these things are kind of perfunctory in a way they're not as sexy seems like cataloging or record keeping is pretty important. Yes. So, when you're looking at at the stock in LA is that because it's all been cataloged and organized in a way that's that's some easy for you to access. Yes and no, like we we favor favor going to a props house in LA we're going there because we can get something there that we cannot get here. And that's the only reason why we would do that we have an amazing network of props houses in New York City that have very valuable specialized stuff that we go to time and time again but because of the size of the market here is only a fraction in New York of what we have available to us in LA. There's diversity of things. The other component of that is that we have that it comes down to budget purposes as well too. So say getting an artwork from a props house or a sculpture sculpture is actually a big thing we get a lot from props houses, because the legal requirements for them to be licensed for us to show them on screen. They have to be we can we can license them through the props house, or they are a rights free thing that we can show on on television whereas if we were preparing something the same thing here outside of the prop house environment, we would have to do all that legal legwork and cost on the back end of that. So kind of just hearing folks talk about you get to see all the different components that could get in the way of thinking about sustainability when you're clearing legal rights for a statue. Yeah. Yeah, it's it can it can get it can get very complicated but one of the ways that we combat that is that when we know we're starting a job we make sure that we have adequate staff like from my department is fairly large way we were the largest procurers of the film industry like we we do everything from light switches to curtains to carpets to furniture to the glass that goes inside the windows. So we really are responsible for purchasing storing and then getting rid of the largest quantity of things. Now I'm sure in terms of you're talking about linear footage of lumber. I think you know, Nick and I probably have the same amount of volume. But for us, we, it's a very it's a very multifaceted approach that we need to take so we give ourselves, we catalog right from the beginning, just because the sheer quantity of stuff that we have to manage we start cataloging as soon as it lands in the shop sometimes even before we it does that as soon as we bought it, we know where it goes, we keep records we know where it ends up. And then at the end of the job the studio has to decide whether or not they want to keep it or we have to get rid of it. Okay, so I guess when I think about tracking I try to without all the panelists before today, please be to Matt. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about you've kind of the cornered the market on lumber to film and television in New York City and you just tell us a little bit about your product and why it matters and kind of how you track things. Thank you, Sharon. So, most people have been talking about what to do after show wraps, but as a vendor to the art department and the construction department and specifically, we're there at the beginning, providing the material. And there's a way you can, every department can source material from the very beginning, that's more sustainable than other materials. Being the lumber guy, I'll talk about lumber which happens to be one of the most sustainable building materials that are out there. You know, trees capture carbon and those two by four as you see on the set, they still have the same amount of carbon in them throughout their life, unless you burn them, the carbon is always captured. So, how can we make sure though that the lumber and plywood that we're supplying to these sets are sustainable. There are certification agencies, the main one in the whole world is the Forest Stewardship Council FSC and when FSC certifies lumber they start at the forest that there are sustainable practices and how they grow. One of the big ways are tree plantations or tree farms, which is the picture behind me. This is a sustainable tree farm. And if you have a tree farm you don't want them to cut down an old growth forest to build a tree farm. So, how do you manage that how do you protect that that's that certification agency when noble lumber has been certified through the chain of custody by the Forest Stewardship for decades now. And that means that everything we buy that we sell as being sustainable had to be tracked from the forest it was produced from or the tree plantation to the sawmills to the whole distribution till it goes to me. Every invoice when I'm selling something that's sustainable, it has my certification number on it. And through audit processes that can be tracked the whole way. The point is, is that everyone I choose to sell sustainable material and we were the first people on the East Coast to bring in sustainable Luan and other sustainable products that we really specialize in. But everyone on a set can have that impact. The scenic department set deck as we as Pippa was talking about, you can choose to take second hand material you can choose to take certain scenic materials that have a lower off gassing material. So it's within all of our power to choose what we're selling to productions and for people in productions to choose what they're buying. Okay. And thanks. So I guess Denise I wanted to bring you into the conversation so materials for the arts is this great long standing organization it's part of New York City government. You're a materials rescue organization and you've recently started working with film and television so could you just tell us a little bit about how that work is going and then kind of, we can get into the nitty gritty of it but where does this stuff go like let's say, everything comes together and what kind of secondary life could these for these items have So add materials for the arts. Since we are with the Department of Cultural Affairs. The only places that are that can take items for now are public schools, not for profit organizations, and other city agencies. So, when those all of those people come to shop. The items are going to inner city schools, theater programs. So children and teens and adults and seniors can all use the materials for their theater productions for their workshops. And some of these places are building sets. Some of the places are building whatever they need for their workshops and educating the city. And so how would that work if I'm a production and I want to have materials for the arts come and help at rap. What would I have to do and what would that kind of look like. The producers have been reaching out to us a lot more recently now that the word has spread that we are available. In the beginning, we were get we were getting a ton of trucks sent without warning. So we've been doing a lot to get our name out there we recently hired two more employees that are dealing with film and television strictly, but either the production will reach out to us, or we will be reaching out to the productions themselves to let them know that we're available when they wrap. But yeah, when they reach out to us, we let them know they if when we can schedule a site visit so a couple of our employees will go out, look at all the items and usually those site visits end up in a on site shopping event. And what that is is our members will sign up through us to come and shop on specific days usually it's two days, and they can take whatever they like. We will pick them out we list down all the items that they're taking, and then the next day. Things are, you know, put out whatever is left will be put out and displayed and then our members will come back and pick up whatever else is left. So today, we will either have a truck to take whatever is left, and also some productions also delivered to our members so if they're members that would like items but they can't carry it with them, or they, they want too much and they pack their truck, and they don't have the space to pack more. Some productions will actually deliver those items to our members directly. So, because we talked a little bit about strategies that are productive so we have like budgeting we have communication it sounds like there's actually all these communities either PIPPA kind of sending it out to other shows or people in the materials for the arts communities. Since we're New Yorkers and we can get to the part where we complain. So, those were all the him positive things. What would you guys say are your, are your biggest stumbling blocks as sustainably minded film and television experts in your fields like what's the thing that just, you know, if you have like a few pet peeve of the things that consistently prevent you from from actualizing this vision of having more sustainable sets and I don't know I can start with whilst who wants to jump in. One of them has always been the dichotomy between a studio stated corporate goals, and the budget consciousness of the people actually doing the production of the, the producers the ups and and the like, where the studio so we want everything to be sustainable, sometimes truly sustainable material costs a little more. So, they're not willing to pay or there's a fight about that. So, it's just that when you say one thing but you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, that's a pet peeve of mine. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, and just following on what Matt says like and and also what Denise was saying too because I'm often at the end of that I'm the one sending the trucks to materials for the arts. And a lot of times the issue we come up against is we have a limited amount of time to get out of our shop space, whether it's because the rental contract for the space is coming up, or whether or not the show is just running out of money. Like, the cost of trucking is is significant, and the cost of staffing to load to sort the items load the trucks and and to send them is significant too. Now, it's absolutely worth it. But at the same time, like you have to either be able to build that in your budget on the front end and still have that my left the end, or you have to have a commitment from production to put those resources towards what we call wrap out. So that we can do we can do the physical donation. And then just to understand that because it's not cheap to send our trash wherever we send it Ohio, South Carolina. But in the aggregate you think it's more cost intensive to do what you just described then just to put it in a dumpster and still ship it and pay the tipping fees and all that. It's hard to quantify without having a case study, because it really depends on the type the types of materials. And also, you know, how many trucks it takes there is a finite costs of which I don't have at my fingertips right now for the truck and for the person driving the truck. There's a finite cost for the labor the hour, the hourly rate of the guys who load the trucks. There's a cost for the extra week that we need at for for the storage space that we're renting a job to job it kind of varies how that balances out against the cost of carting. And and the dumpsters, but ultimately, ultimately, it can it can be more. Okay. And so then, Nick, and I knew when I was trying to you both this, this very New York issue came up of art directors, and kind of this idea of intellectual property and how some of the more human. aspects of how we feel about our work, especially artistic people might be an obstacle. So do you guys want to chat about that dynamic. Yeah, I mean, I could jump in on that. Particularly if you're working again with like within a studio system and there's certain intellectual property rights that the studio has. And then on a sort of personal design level, there tends to be this notion that, you know, a designer doesn't want to use designs from someone else. So that does happen. There's also just like, I think the legal requirements often we come up against where a studio needs to have a sort of legal release on some items if they're sending whole sets and that would just be more of a liability issue. And, and again, it goes back to siloing the system. It's very siloed within everything that we do. And even within this particular studio you're siloing each production free flow of material between productions that are in the same for that work for the same studio is much easier. But, you know, I've known certain productions where if it's a sort of high concept high design show. The designer has a desire to sort of destroy all the things because they don't want them out in the world. So that happens. I don't think that's so prevalent, but it is an aspect. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. It used to be more prevalent. I think it's on its way out. I hope it is. I refer to a story that I heard from a long time ago, production designer Dick Silbert designed a very fancy art deco elevator door and he was in the studio where whatever was going on and got wind that it was going to be given to another production. He turned to a carpenter grabbed his circular saw and cut the door to shreds himself. And now I'm talking a long time ago that was Dick Silbert. But I do believe it's on, it's on its way out. To the point, though, I think it really needs to be and this is something that I wish the studios would do is to put into the deal memo that the, the work we do, the products that are made in support of the film are really ownership of the studios, not of the designers and even the art directors. If we're going to do this, we have to give this up. And I think that's, that's part of it. And people need to be reminded of that. And I grew up in a world where colleagues of mine scenic artists and carpenters said we should never recycle because we're always taking, we're only taking work away from ourselves. Again, I think that's on the lane, but that was something that I grew up with over time and and it has been a problem. One thing I would like to go back to is this inherent problem between studios producers, the need to be cost efficient and the need to, on my end to properly budget things. We call our industry, the film industry, or the movie business or show business. It's not show art. It's not movie art. The word business is there for a reason. And I think we all have to respect that. Because we're all in this business together, where I would like to see this go. And share I'm hoping this is where you can help out with their needs to be financial incentives for the producers and the production managers to be able to partake somehow. So that they aren't so pinched with funds and whether it's, you know, I'm not sure how. But if there is a way to quantify something as people mentioned, that it could be then a further tax incentive, for instance, to create this financial financial incentive for us to do the right thing. And I think that's going to be a key thing in the future. Can I jump in? So I think what's great about materials for the arts is that we kind of are that incentive for the productions. So any expense that it takes to get those items to us is tax deductible. So if you have to rent out a truck to get things to us, that's included in your in whatever you're writing off for your taxes. And I also wanted to mention that the onsite shopping will help with the problem of the shipping cost the trucking costs as well. I mean, I just think it's it's a huge incentive for productions to use this, this opportunity, and just let everybody know everybody know about it. And there was something I wanted to mention as well but when you asked the question. Okay, I knew in paper. Yeah, I wanted to add that the lack of it goes back to this idea of lack of infrastructure. It's also sort of lack of messaging. We get a lot of messaging from our employers around sustainability, but it often doesn't include second instruction and design necessarily. So, and this goes, you know, to the point of what Denise is saying, which is, I think if there was clear directive in the same way that we're also trained in, you know, various other aspects of, you know, other, you know, we have harassment training of, you know, then when COVID happened we had COVID training and, you know, the problem is so huge for the climate crisis, why don't we have sustainability training coming from our employers. It would include vendors like materials for the arts, and many other vendors that we're given a, we can open a booklet, given to us by the studio that says this is what you do when you start to design your sets. This is what you do during, you know, XYZ, when you're wrapping a set, these are the different companies, these are the different nonprofits you can send your materials to. It's sort of messaging that we need, and that's my sticky wicket with all this that I'm really just getting frustrated that we don't have it's left up to us and the people that care in the industry, which there are many, a lot of the crew really care about this issue. And we're, we're at the end are sort of left holding the bag, and we have to do our other job, by the way. Sure. I'm Pippa, yeah. Yeah, I concur with honor, it really has to be a top down approach because to for realistically on a logistics level, I can have my team carry out the inventory be available I can put extra money in the budget to make sure that we have the resources to get rid of things. But ultimately, often when we get to a show, the studio doesn't really know what they want to do with the stuff. So for weeks before the show ends we're asking, what do you want to keep what do you want to get rid of because for us in order to maximize our time and plan which is key we really have to start early. But it really isn't until right towards the end of the movie or the TV show they're doing that anyone's really thinking about it. Because there's there are a lot of things that studios want to keep because they're of a certain value they're considered an asset. So for they, they need to keep them and there's other and then, and a lot of times sometimes it's case by case basis, they want to decide whether or not they want to ship it back to LA or whether they want to store it for season two, or if they want to get rid of it. And without knowing what we could do with it all the stuff belongs to the studio we can't do anything to it until we get directed from them. Right so it's a big kind of culture shift that needs to happen about adding this in at the beginning and thinking about it. So I have a question for you, and I knew from one of our guests. So two part question. Thinking about indie projects and I will just pause the question to say that I think it's like 89% of film production in New York is actually indie production which is something which makes the market a little bit more unique from LA for example. Would you talk about how you approach and speak with line producers who do not start the project with or sympathetic to a green agenda. Likewise for you crew for example lead man how do you invite and control at the end of project, wherever is exhausted and just wants to quote unquote go home, or just go home without the quotes. I worked on a lot of indies. That's how I started I was doing several when I first started in New York City was doing several movies year in order to in order to make rent, and it's a problem because in those jobs you really are squeezed from the at the end for time and at the beginning for money and at the end for money to you're always running out of both. The biggest thing to do is for instance when we when we did an indie that was going to be bought by Amazon there were certain requirements that we because they knew they wanted to sell it to a major streamer or studio for distribution. There were certain requirements that they had to satisfy in terms of clearances or legal clearances for artwork. The studios say of Amazon and for Netflix as part of a distribution agreement made it necessary for them to have to be to have a climate audit or to have to be accountable for what for what they did within their project to be sustainable. That would be the incentive for them to treat it just like is another budget line. You know the resources that you budget for it you prepare for it, and you know that if you if you at the end result if you want your indeed to be seen by anyone and be distributed that you're going to have to satisfy those requirements. That's really the only way you're going to get going to get any resources at all, if you're in my department. So some of the tools that I use. And in every day making decisions. We sort of have these decision trees in our industry, and it always revolves around scheduling budget and the creative and we're constantly juggling those three pillars. Like in our decision making, sometimes budget becomes more of a heavier weight in that decision. Sometimes it's schedule. Hopefully it's more creative. And we're as designers are directors. To the extent of really anyone working in this industry in a creative way, you're always constantly balancing those three factors. And what I like to say and what I feel like I've developed in my own way is to layer sustainability as a fourth pillar and those decision making so creating in that decision tree. You've satisfied the budget you've satisfied the schedule you've satisfied the creative have I satisfied this decision based in a sustainable sustainable way. So an indie projects it's it's actually, there may be lack of resources but there's lack of resources for everything. And in some strange way, independent film has this, maybe more opportunity to be more sustainable because you're you're often making that choice because you don't have enough money. And I think that can sometimes be the more sustainable choice. We often, I think everyone on this panel can attest to the working in a sort of high pace environment where a studio project might have endless, seemingly endless amounts of money and the decisions are very fast, and we are quick to create a sort of wasteful environment because you have the funds to make decisions. Easier where sometimes if you if you're given less opportunity and less funds you actually can have a better creative outcome. The same with sustainability you can get a more sustainable outcome because you're, you sort of have lack of the funding. And for independent projects, sometimes I think that it turns out better. Now, toward the end of a project that's where I think it gets harder for an independent, because you're, you're again more, it's even less resources than if you were working for a streamer or a studio. But again, I think the tool that I've tried to use is, and I tried to, I would say, again it goes back to culture, and just create that culture with the people that work for you and the people that you're working for. So I try to let it be known through anyone working with me in the creative circle that being producers and, and the director. I let them know that I'm going to try to make a sustainable choice here after we've discussed the budget, the creative and the schedule. Now I'm going to layer sustainability over that. Okay, so there's a couple of issues I kind of wanted to circle back to one thing I, you know, comes up and push back around sustainability is this idea of that it can be a job killer and so kind of wanted to delve into that topic a little bit. I don't know if there's merit to that or actually maybe it's, it sounds to me like you could actually create jobs or all this inventorying there's learning how to pack things up in a sustainable way even just the coordination or the building the network so I'm just kind of curious if you guys think that's myth, not a myth. No, very, very true. The problem is money, and it's making sure that the funds are there to be able to do that, whatever it is, breaking hardware, which tends to be purchased new all the time, because the people who use it wanted to be absolutely saved. There could be systems developed to test that hardware, so it can be reused and sent on to another production or reused again. It's just money, really, and that's what it comes down to. Yeah, I would say, I mean the bigger the bigger threat, I don't think is necessarily sustainability, but the, the idea that, you know, our the work that we do is is is becoming more digitized. That, you know, that's probably obviously a bigger threat. I think there is this concept that the more the industry digitizes the more sustainable it becomes and I honestly don't think that's necessarily true. I think there would need to be metrics done on the amount of processing power that computers use to generate digital sets. I think it's enormous. You know, you talk a lot about computer computing power actually using up a lot of energy, whether that's more sustainable than building a set with a crew and raw materials. I'm not sure someone would need to do the metrics on that. But I think reusing so from on a practical level. If I'm a art director or designer and I acquire a set from another production. I'm still hiring grips to move the set. Still hiring grips to put up the set. I'm hiring carpenters to go through the inventory and add the windows and the doors in the middle work. I'm hiring scenics to repaint it a different color. You know, sets don't come off a truck completely built. They're libraryed. As Nick mentioned before, there's doors and windows and things that are that are picked apart from a set. So there's a lot of labor going into just reconstituting a set that's already been built. I don't know the exact number on this but maybe Nick, you know, so sets are built from Luan flats. It's a standard either four by eight or by 10. That is what most sets are comprised of. And it's just because it's a modular system. They can be, they can be different sizes but standard four by a four by 10. That's often what we receive when a set is stripped. As far as I know, building a raw Luan flat out of pine, baton and Luan probably takes a carpenter an hour. I don't know what would you say, Nick? Well, it's hard to, I wouldn't quantify it as as little as that. I will say though that what you described standardized flats sound more like what you would find at a commercial house where you would pull from the stock flats that are there and make up whatever walls are necessary. I think for most movie productions and film productions, the flats that make up the walls, they're pretty much custom made. My experience in reusing flats from one set to make another set, it's pretty miserable. The work that you have to do, it's just too much that you really want to build it new. You get a better product, you get a stronger product, it's a lot, it's better in many, many ways. And for that, I turn to Matt because that's where FSC products come in enormously handy just to be sustainable. I know, unfortunately, it's going to be trash and get thrown into a dumpster. So the answer there really is forestry sustainable products. So there's two, there's two parts to that. The first thing we were talking about in terms of man days and man hours, people days and people hours. Yes. There might be less construction time. If you could use the flats that you find in a warehouse or the flats that have been used from another production. So those days might be a little less in terms of the carpenters, but then you're adding strike days, because to strike a set just to throw it away versus to strike it in a way to inventory it, ship it to a place, a warehouse where it can be reused, it will add days at the end. And hopefully, you can have grips manning those warehouses and putting them to work in those warehouses as well. So, the only people who really lose out on that I think that the union guys it will, it will work itself out and even out. Obviously vendors like myself might sell less material, but if sustainability is the goal, and I want to be a good steward of the planet that is a small price to pay. And that's also Nick's other point, it's sourcing the material. So we made a choice years ago to move every production in New York to certified sustainable Luan. We knew they were using them for the flats, they were coming for deck for almost 100 years, they were coming from rainforests. So we did it on our own to only bring in FS certified Luan. We kept up the cost the same. And we weren't getting calls for it for the productions. So we just switched everyone to it. So there was a time we had enough stock, we stopped selling the old and we only sell FSC certified Luan to every production in the East Coast basically the same thing. The same thing with the battens use those are certified by a different agency in Europe, PFC, and the plywood that Nick uses on those decks he was talking about. That's also FSC certified material. So, well, I can't control what happens at after the strike, I can control what I'm going to sell to studios and make sure that it's sustainable as possible so we're not hurting the environment. Yeah, at the end, that's when the whole landfill question comes in. But at the beginning, it's what can we do to provide the best possible material that is sustainable. I just I want to be mindful of time so there's a couple other things I wanted to touch on before I let everyone go. One I just want to also note that we have amazing folks who are attending this and putting lots of resources in the chat so some folks have been asking questions about resource guides and everyone's putting great stuff in there. So, make sure to look at the chat. So, I want to touch on coming off what Matt saying on materials and there's something for Pippa kind of or Nick you to you know like are we thinking does this encompass are we using paint that's not toxic or are we getting some couches that don't have flame retardants or like how far does this go when you think about the input so thanks to Matt we now have only sustainable lumber in New York City productions but you know the clothes like fast fashion or micro world drinking plastic right because of micro plastics and synthetic fibers and things like that so I don't know Pippa could you talk a little bit about how you think about that when you're doing. The things I procure for sets there's a thing that any other regular residential homeowner would get for their sets. So for me it's mostly systemic on a much wider stage so I've, I've lived and I've done projects in the UK and over there there's been a real shift because of EU law for vendors to very publicly make clear what their sustainable policy is, and they've seen that that meant that matters a lot to to the consumer. So it's very easy to go to any vendor in the UK and figure out if they're using what percentage of recyclable materials are you they're doing what they're doing in terms of their manufacturing processes where things come from it's all very transparent. We just don't have that information at our fingertips here. I can go to one of my vendors and say where this light switch come from and they're going to go well, China, you know it's going to be the same thing that just isn't there is not the culture here on a national level for that kind of accountability in terms of what sustainable manufacturing processes that's very different is to my actual vendors, saying that we do we do shop second hand an awful lot mainly for budget reasons for speed and also for the types of things that we need. So we do. We don't always buy a new there's certain things that we have to buy new that we can't buy second hand carpets is a lot of them, because a second hand carpet is often to beat up for us to use a production. That's an interesting question, because depending on what stage in what county you're shooting on in New York State, they have different fire regulations and some stages require you to fire retard, apply fire retardant to your sets in order for you to use that stage. So that comes down to the that comes down to the actual fire regulations for the for the county. So then, Nick and I knew I mean, sometimes I like to think about piggybacking and other policy things so are there ever kind of health and safety regulations that come in that are a way to get less toxic products into sets. Is that something that happens are there other ways to prioritize that if, if people don't want to pay more for a non toxic paint is there a way to look at an OSHA regulation or something that's coming out and kind of. So yeah, there is I mean, so a 29 was pretty instrumental in health and safety. And we have a wonderful advisor. Manon Russell who has talked to, we've engaged with her at the sustainability committee because while we're looking for materials that are seemingly more sustainable. So she's there to check them for human use because something that might be sustainable for example. So it's a product called milk paint, which is inherently completely natural, but it's actually not good for humans if it's left in a, in a, in a canister, it could grow mold. So it's examples like that where the, the, our union has already been keeping an eye on materials and how their impact on humans. So the low VOC paints were already doing, I think paint also the paint industry has, has been very good about creating low via low to no VOC options. So I feel like we're doing okay in that area where we are not doing that well for Phoenix department is the expendable materials that we use so brushes and bins and things would tend to be plastic. There are a lot of different systems and tools being developed. A lot of good people working toward this. But again, I don't think it's, it's not. There's not enough education and training around this. And I think that's a gap that we recognize that we want to try to do through the committee work is to educate and train our members to have better systems that would be more sustainable. You know, even if some of the materials you purchase can't be sustainable just because they don't exist, perhaps you can at least make sure you're buying from vendors that have sustainable practices. So that's the important thing research the vendors you're using to make sure that their philosophy matches yours, and that they want to be in everything they do as sustainable as possible. Yeah, exactly. We like to jump in on is with Matt to his credit not only was he the first lumber source in New York to take this approach, but he managed to keep the quality of the lumber. First quality and that for us. Set builders is of a prime concern. What I would like to see more of is something called engineered lumber. The problem with engineered lumber is that it uses a lot more adhesives, there's more formaldehyde, things need to be gassed off. I think a lot more testing needs to be done, but engineered lumber is saving a lot of natural resources because it's basically using one product is called OSB oriented strand board in place of plywood. And now it's not a perfect replacement, but it is something that can be used. I used it on decks all the time and got the added benefit that it was a better sound quality for the sound designer. But things like that. I think the industry is naturally heading towards, and I want to see more of it engineered lumber products. This is my kind of final rapid fire, which is, if you guys each had one wish from the studios or producers and from the city of New York to help you guys in your quest for more sustainable sets. What would it be. I'll go to you a new first. I think advocacy for policy initiative, I think tax incentive as an added value for sustainability would be a great incentive that the city could help with. I think unique to New York is the storage problem. You know, there are certain case studies that that has been successful, you know, the, the Hollywood model of in the studio system. I think it was very successful in reuse. And that was based purely on financial as well. I think maybe some storage subs either subsidized storage that the studios could buy in on. If they'll do it I don't know I think it's conversation that needs to needs to be had. And I think incentivizing, you know, moving towards scope three like to what Nick and matter saying it's like our vendors need to also be more sustainable and our industry is so geared toward, efficiency. We're sort of entrenched in the way in the work that we do. It's very hard to diverge and keep on budget and keep on schedule from our processes because they've been optimized for efficiency. And if you can't change the process let's change the materials we're working with, which is what Matt has been doing. And I think that would go a long way, but what that's, and I think that the studios, or our employers could do an investment, a huge investment in that infrastructure of materials and and research and development of the materials that we use and make sure that there's a good scope three analysis of those materials so that when we don't have to change our process we can keep doing what we're doing and we can feel good that the sets that we're building the materials that we're using are not harmful to the environment. If I had my drawers which is a phrase that I used to use a lot, if I had my drawers, the dream that I would love to see would be the independent film production facilities around the Metropolitan area to be able to have standing sets for things like a subway station, a police precinct, a bank, courtrooms, elevators, there's so many things that get used over and over again. What makes New York so great is that we have probably the best backed lot in the entire world in the city of New York itself. What we don't have is how a studio facility in LA functions with storage as Anu just said, but also things that we could. Why do we need to build a subway station over and over again. It's ridiculous they all look the same or close enough. And there are quite a few things like that. We need a tank, which New York really doesn't have and having built a few of those in my life. It's a very difficult thing. There are things like that that I'd love to see the independent film production facilities work on and maybe with the city of New York as a backer to be able to do something like that. The Brooklyn Navy Yard, I did three back to back productions before Steiner Studios there at that time it was owned by the city of New York, and we still there like this is the place. And it never happened. It could happen but something like that would just be fantastic. Okay. That's interesting paper. For me, I think it would have to be top down incentives. Storage obviously a big issue for me but mostly what impacts me is the will, the will and the resources from from the networks to be able to put the time and the money into it. When it comes to my department that's that's where where the trickle down where at the bottom of the trickle down that's what it comes to. I think, without incentives to versus sustainable accountability. There's no, no one's going to have the, it's too easy to say that you don't have the time and the money. Okay. Matt. I think incentives are great. And it, not only incentives for the production companies. So the more sustainable you are, perhaps a higher tax credit. But it's also incentives for the vendors. I took it upon myself to bring in these materials that cost more. A lot of vendors don't have the economic means to do that. We need a way to subsidize bringing in the right kind of materials that can be used. So productions at the beginning can be greener. And to take off what I notice saying, we need this city really to do something on the whole reuse of sets that can't be left to a production that can't be left to a studio in California it's all centralized you have one big warehouse on the, on the Sony lot one on the NBC uni lot here it's so decentralized that unless you have studios working together to create a warehouse and good luck with having the studios work together. You need the city of New York or an entity funded by the city of New York to put something like that together. And then Denise I'll let you, since you work for the city of New York I won't put you on the spot but do you want to give your last plug for materials for the arts and how folks in the industry can work with you guys what's the best way. Yes, so the best way to work with materials for the arts is just have us in your thoughts when you're planning a show that will be the best option. We can discuss things as things are going on, and we can plan to have your items in our warehouse or have one of the onsite shopping events at your warehouse or wherever you store your items. And I wanted to answer that other question to like your wish. I don't want to keep you from wishing, even though I am, even though I do work for the city of New York, my wish, similar to what everyone has been saying is expanding MFTA. I want to have like Matt was saying a centralized place where all of these productions can store their items, all these productions can get items from the storage as well, and all of our members can shop there as well. And that would be great if more than only, more than only schools and non for profits and city agencies could take advantage of the program, like artists and, and individuals and everybody I wish everybody take advantage of using all of these great materials. Well, so, can I just say one thing I'm so sorry, because I want to elevate what Denise is saying and elevate materials for the arts because we have one of our members who has talked on panels before production designer who has a great case study using materials for the arts and wound down entire series very sustainably and materials for the arts was integral in that process so just in the way that Denise described it earlier there was a set sale and the donations were given so again I just wanted to elevate that we have a personal case study with one of our members that it worked very well. Well, so I wanted to wrap up by kind of reflecting a little bit of the things we heard today I think, you know, just really culture shift and communication comes comes to the top of mind as well as aligning your budgeting where you put your money with your corporate goals and I think you know part of that is keeping folks accountable so I'm impressed by the number of people that registered who showed up tonight on my end working for the city. Dream project of mine that I've been trying to get get moving forward for many years is actually a reuse and storage facility for the film and television industry so that's something we are in the process now as a city exploring things don't move away in government that might be surprising that. So that is something though that has kind of come off of just being a study on a bookshelf to now actively being looked at and I think to the extent that anyone who's out there listening to this, who has ideas who wants to work on that you can feel free to reach out to me and people have been asking if we can save the chat we're going to do that and compile that and circulate it. So I just want to thank the panelists so much been a really interesting engaging and enlightening conversation. And I want to thank all the folks who who joined us from all over the world it seems that's been a great conversation and please stay tuned we do these every few months on different topics and we'll be coming out with a new one soon. So thanks everybody. Thank you.