 RobertStuck.substack.com is his sub-stack and Robert, you're writing a great deal about right-wing multiculturalism. So what is right-wing multiculturalism? Hi, Luke. Thanks for having me on. I haven't. So I haven't actually used the term right-wing multiculturalism. I guess I said in the chat, we should call the show that. So I've used a number of terms, pluralism, pan-onclavism. I don't actually, so on the record, I don't identify as right-wing. I would say more identify as, if I had to use a label as a distance interest, I just say right-wing multiculturalism to differentiate, to differentiate from woke multiculturalism or the multiculturalism of the left. So it has many facets, but just, but to kind of have an introduction, I'd recommend the article I wrote, a new purist vision for California. So an example of that would be multiculturalism, but without things like, all this, the toxicity of like CRT and wokeness and even, even where things were headed with left-leaning multiculturalism, even like 20 years ago, but multiculturalism where all groups take part without any, any moralistic double standards, obvious, which is, which is pretty, pretty clear and pretty obvious to the audience. So one example is in my pluralism article, New Purilist Vision for California. I propose like specialized platinum plans for all. So that would, that was kind of like, that was a play on what Trump was advocating, but I say like every group, like figure out which group, like what is their specific needs and needs of specific groups rather than saying like this group, one group is inherently morally, morally bad and make it, they should make amends for racism, just looking at things like what is, what is the situation now and what, what should the political system and what are the needs of each particular group? And do you consider yourself a man of the right or of the left? Depends on the, on the issue. So this hasn't been published. I have an article coming in. One of my upcoming sub-stacks is the old center revisited. I would say more of like a dissident centrist. So when I take the political compass quiz, I get like a centrist, but like centrist slightly leaning to the left actually, but have, I guess, philosophically, like if you have human nature, like an understanding of human nature that you could say is more right wing, that humans are more inherently tribal and hierarchical rather than egalitarian. But then, so in that sense, more right wing. But when I take the political compass quiz asking about broader economic and social issues, I'm a centrist, but like slightly closer to the left. Okay. And what led you to stop this sub-stack? Well, I was previously writing, I submitted one article to Taki Mag, and then I was writing a bit for Unes. And just two, two reasons is that it was hearing a lot of people becoming who are becoming successful with growing their audience over sub-stack, and then also not having to deal with if an article was rejected from a previous site, having complete like editorial, editorial control. Okay. And I assume also the recall has played a major role in your sub-stack. Oh, yeah, I did. Maybe I wrote a couple, a couple about the recall, and I plan to put out like a voter guide ranking the different, the different candidates. Well, you know, I mean, it seems like the recall is is an underlying factor for your sub-stack. It sort of ties all these issues together. So I, I didn't see this at the beginning, but it is focused, I do focus specifically on California issues. So yeah, this is a huge, this is a huge, huge for California. And I do predict like I predict Newsom will probably win. But the recall, even if it's like 50-50, it does, it does show that California is not totally monolithic as people expect. It's just there isn't really any viable like other alternative. And how was your experience of the COVID pandemic? Yeah, I never, I never really got, I never really, I never got sick. I was pretty, pretty cautious. I did travel throughout, I traveled throughout California a couple times. I went to the barrier twice, LA a couple times. But I never, I never really got sick. And I took it pretty, I actually did, like I was more kind of, I think a lot, I think it is kind of a fashionable to be, like, to be against sort of the mainstream COVID narrative in the, in certain political spheres. But I'd say I generally, I took it pretty, yeah, I took it pretty seriously, just partially, because I mean, obviously don't want to get sick in a bit, a bit of like my OCD. But I actually, if you look at some of the early shows I did, in the early in the spring to fall of 2020, I was actually more sympathetic to take to the position of taking to the more kind of hawkish position of taking COVID seriously. But then I can, I guess I can see the arguments of the other side as far as, as far as lockdowns go, because some states did lock some states did lock down pretty hard, like California. And then it still got pretty bad. And what was your experience like with the isolation that comes with with a lockdown? It was, I think because most of what I'm doing involves because I'm mostly writing, it didn't have, it was an inconvenience, but it didn't dramatically impact my life the way it did many others, because like most of what I do, I mostly focused focused on writing, which doesn't, which obviously is not impacted by the pandemic. And what do you think about the 2020 presidential election? Do you think broad played a major role? I haven't seen evidence of like any major, any major serious. I haven't seen empirical evidence of major voter voter frauds. I'm not going to endorse that theory. But I'll just I do think it is reasonable. What time magazine? I forget the name of that piece if maybe you remember it Luke, but what they said about cover cover magazine saying that people from the right and left came together to ensure the integrity of the election. So I read that article fairly carefully. And a lot of people thought, Aha, see, it's obvious that this was fixed. But I read the article, there was nothing that was illegal. They, they different forces just gained joined together to try to ensure that the 2020 election would happen. Yeah, I think you have to agree with that. And like, I think it's fair to say, aspects of institutional power in media and social and social media, like there were maybe issues like with algorithms being biased, but that kind of stuff, but I haven't seen any blatant empirical evidence of about right voter fraud. Okay. And so what do you think about how you've lived all your life in California? Is that fair? For the most part, I lived in England briefly in 2002 for about six months. But other than that, I basically lived in California, continuously throughout my life. So yeah, that did impact. That's really why I focus I do focus every pretty much every article I write about on sub stack relate specifically to California issues. And what do you think that you hear it right wing media particularly like Fox News that the California is just going down the toilet? What do you think about the direction of California? So there is, there is bad, there is bad leadership and anything. There definitely are downsides to having like a one party state. And there are, there are problems with the cost of living and in urban areas, there's a homeless crisis. But I'd say overall, I do think that right wing media, grossly, grossly exaggerates and sensationalizes. California, there are a lot of things that do make it desirable. So I try to keep a balanced approach. But Luke, you're also, you've lived in LA continuously for a pretty long time when you agree with that assessment that the right wing exaggerates. How does it describes California? Like it's the worst, the word most screwed up place on earth. That's not, that's not like an accurate image. Yeah, it's not my experience. So number one, I don't find that most people tend to get terribly passionate about politics in California. So number, number two, the government works. I mean, streets get cleaned. Generally speaking, the trash gets taken away the water and the electricity work. And it's very rare that say the electricity goes out or I mean, I get to have a wonderful high quality life in West Los Angeles. So I'm sure that there are some parts of Los Angeles that are pretty crappy. But I mean, for Southern California is home to about 25, 30 million people. Los Angeles County is home to 10 million people. It has its problems, but it's far from a dystopia. Yeah, and I do write a lot. So I've wrote in a lot about Pan-onclavism. Luke, you actually are part of an onclive, the Orthodox Jewish community near Beverly Hills. What do you do you see? Do you see personally see there as benefits to being part of an enclave rather than being part of just just general mass society as a whole? Yeah, I don't envy those people who don't have communities. So I live where there are 100 Orthodox synagogues within walking distance. I've lived in this area pretty much for either in this area for more than 20 years and near this area for 20, 27 years. So I don't envy people who don't live in an enclave with their particular group. I mean, life with our community, I would expect is fairly lonely. So I would expect people to naturally want to live in their own communities. But I would expect that black people would prefer to live among black people, that Latinos would prefer to live among Latinos, that Asians would prefer to live among Asians, that Japanese would prefer to live among the Japanese, that Filipinos would like to live near each other, that Chinese live near each other and European Americans live near each other as well, which is basically what happens when people have the choice they choose to live and to work and to socialize with their own kind. And there yeah, I do mention there clearly are benefits of social capital, community, economic benefits, kind of cultural cultural benefits as well. And reconciling different different aspects of what liberals like about multiculturalism with concerns that atomized urban living, like addressing the flaws of it as well. And that's all in that article, the initial article, California's Future of Pantone Clavism. Because that is a direction of where we're headed. And a lot of political policies they try to fight it, the conservatives do by like English they want everyone to speak English and they want to pressure immigrant groups to assimilate. Then the left as a two, they say that left thinks it's bad if if one area, especially a white area is too homogenous, they want to diversify. But I just make the point that this seems to be where we're headed. And both policies and maybe more natural trends impacted by human nature, instead of fighting it like just just giving these communities some degree of autonomy. As far as this kind of right wing multiculturalism, you were saying, Luke, that you think the Orthodox Jewish community would support this more so than others? Yeah, I guess so the Orthodox Jewish community tends to be a highly insular. I mean, it's whatever is best for its own communities. So Orthodox Jews had to be above average in intelligence, above average in work ethic, tend to have higher than the normal number of children. And therefore, they have to work particularly hard to pay for a very expensive way of life. And so Orthodox Judaism is centered around the community. So Orthodox Jews can can function within a Democratic regime, a Republican regime, an independent regime, just just so long as they can maintain their communities. So I find there are there are some Orthodox Jews who are moving out of Los Angeles, many for South Florida, but generally speaking, the more financially successful ones are staying. And this is true for California as a whole. So it's not generally speaking, it's not high income Californians who are leaving the state. It's those who are struggling to get by the the lower middle class and the working class who are leaving the state. The more and the people coming in are more educated and have higher income than the Californians who are leaving. Yeah, I do. I agree with that. That assessment based on research that I've seen. I think the conservative media has actually been dishonest when they say that California is driving out all its millionaires and and business owners. There are if they want to say that maybe policies or anti business that I mean, that's reasonable till if they want to complain about like tax policies. But I've actually think the conservative media, their portrayal of California has actually been flat out dishonest in that regard. And I know the mayor of Los Angeles, Eric Garcetti said he's never met a CEO that he didn't like. I mean, he's pro business Democrat. And so the the Democrats are running the state. I mean, they've certainly got their problems, but they're by and large, they're competent. Like California, generally speaking, does not suffer from incompetent government at times in places that there are certainly objections to be made. But overall, this is not California is not run by incompetent people. And anything I'm hearing about is I'm not in LA. I'm going to I'm in a small smaller city. But I'm hearing about this massive crime wave in LA. And I visit I mean, I have visited LA a couple of times over briefly over the past year. And I've noticed I've noticed like there is an increase in the number of homeless encampments. But have you found like this talk of like urban decay and and including like a crime wave, have you found this to be true? Yes, there's definitely a crime wave because essentially all all stealing up to $950 is you know, only a misdemeanor that doesn't even get enforced. So so there's definitely a crime wave. And there are definitely problems with the homeless. Now, one thing I've noticed with the homeless, I'm not even on a homeless policy, but I have noticed that the more the California spends on the homeless, the more homeless it attracts. So it seems to me that a law enforcement approach rather than a an amelioration approach is the best one most homeless or drug addicts or alcoholics or just insane people. And the more social services that we provide for the homeless, the more homeless people move to California. So a great deal of our homeless population has moved here from other states because they they hear about all the freebies. So if I were mayor of Los Angeles, for example, I would I would conduct myself pretty much the same way that the Democratic mayor of the city of Houston conducted himself with regard to homelessness, which is to discourage people from providing any food or services or money to the homeless and to discourage homelessness to instead of subsidizing it and making it as easy as possible to enforce the law and so not allow camp out not allow tent cities on the streets. That's that's what I'd like to see. Unfortunately, California is just doing more and more subsidizing of homelessness, which only makes the problem worse and worse. So yeah, I do what I call for and I'm the pan enclave is a article is they're just doing like there's doing kind of in theoretical and doing in doing in reality with a current policy. But so yeah, I understand like what's happening what's happening now, but I guess what was so what I do call for is what pan enclave is and would say is like each community would be they would ideally be responsible for providing social services for their own community. But that's not that's not how things are have been working. And do you think that Governor Governor Newsom is going to be recalled? Uh, so I plan on voting for the recall if I had to predict. I think the read if my my prediction right now is that they'll be a is that the recall will lose by like a very narrow margin. So it might get like 40 47 like 46 to 48% of the vote if I had to predict that's what I would. And if the recall succeeds, is Larry Alder our next governor? I don't. I just think I ideologically he's so far to the right on economic issues. Uh, I don't see him as being I don't see him as being like really popular among Californians as a whole. But since there's no other I don't know. I think foul foul the San Diego Mayor Falconer like he's a pretty centrist centrist Republican like he's he was opposed to Trump. He endorses climate change science. He was pro like zoning reform and building more housing when he's mayor of San Diego. I haven't decided who I'll vote for because my candidate I had a candidate who's not going to make the ballot for this election. But I think Falconer is probably the strongest of the Republicans running. I don't really see Larry Alder is just economic economically he's so you so far right in the small government in the kind of small government cut like slashing all social services position. I don't see him as electable. Okay. And as far as California's population, would you like more people in California or fewer? I think there is like there is an ecological caring capacity. Obviously right now I think it's 40 million. I think if I grew if it grew kind of steadily and maybe reached like 60 like 60 million by the end of the century and it was done responsibly. I think that's manageable. Some growth is but there is like there was a caring capacity like 100 million would probably be too much. And also but I do think it depends. It also depends. Would you say it does depend like who who is leaving and who is moving in. That's not that's somewhat taboo to talk about but I think that is relevant. That is legitimate concern. Right. If you've got higher income and more educated people moving in you can do that for sure with that kind of population. On the other hand I was reading Kevin Stars 2003 book on on California. It was California from I think 1990 until the recall of 2003 when Arnold Schwarzenegger was elected and some things that struck me. So he predicts in this 2003 book that by 2020 California's population will be 50 million and it's 40 million. California has stopped growing the last three years and he also predicts that LA County's population will be 12 million and it's 10 million. So I mean I I don't want any more people in California. I would I would like to see the the number stop at 40 million even even bring it lower. So my sympathy is with the the no growth crowd which is fairly considerable in California. Yeah I could. But do you think so I guess we were talking earlier like with discussing like who is moving in who is leaving looking at the statistics from your time in LA. What has been your observation about how the the demographics and class structure has changed. Well I observe generally speaking that the people who move out are lower middle class and the people who move in are generally speaking upper middle class headed in that direction. They're generally more educated more income than the people who are moving out. So California is still the place where the future is created. It's created in San Francisco and Los Angeles and and a little bit in New York City. So a lot of smart ambitious people are moving in. I noticed that and then I noticed like downwardly mobile whites tending to marry Latino women and then often moving out of state because California has become more expensive. But I have been pleased to see the population of California stay solid that according to some analysts that more Mexicans have moved back to Mexico from California that have moved in that Mexico and Central America's baby boom population surge has is slowing that will probably never again see Mexico sending more people to United States than return to Mexico and Central America's population boom is slowing as well. So we're now getting more of our immigrants who are higher higher educated more income more more potential cognitive during the 2010s China surpassed Mexico as the top top nation of new immigrants to California. Yeah, they're primarily Asian since 2010 and they are not sentimental. You can't you can't guilt them with critical race theory. They're they're fairly ruthless about pursuing their own interests as Latinos. Latinos are very pragmatic. I noticed they're not they're not very ideological. They're certainly not pro-feminist. They're certainly not pro-woke. They're just interested in in pragmatic improvements for their way. Yeah, California is also much more moderate than people than people assume because it showed. So there was a ballot measure on reinstating affirmative action and it lost and whites Asians voted against it. And then with Latinos it was split pretty close to 50 50. So California is not it's not as extremely woke as people with many people assume. Now you write on your sub stack. California should be at the forefront in calling for America's immigration policies to honor diversity based immigration. So what do you mean by that? Yeah, diversity diversity is a strength of California. And just to take that into account like with these crisis, if a group is I mean, a lot of cases like if there's a group that shows that they're going to be good citizens, we should maybe focus more on I don't think I don't agree like I don't agree with Trump of ending, ending like what he wanted to do of ending the diversity a lot of why? Well, what's in it for America? I don't see it's not like it's not extremely beneficial, but I just don't think that should why why Trump decided to make that his main his main focus his main focus of opposition. I think it's better. I mean, it's better to have immigration that is extremely diversified rather than like what what Kamala Harris wanted to do of allowing like one nation to be totally to be totally dominant or to end like all country caps that could then you could have like one one nationality that is extremely influential so that if you have to choose if you sort of have to choose a different the different systems like I would say there there's arguments against for more restrictionist policies of saying like a complete moratorium. And I see that a lot on these different kind of right wing populist accounts on Twitter, but I don't really see that's I see they're only see that as as viable. But I guess best case would be if like a hybrid of some some merit requirements fuse with diversity. So is what you're talking about the lotto that where where our future immigrants are simply chosen by luck? So I mean, so that's not that's not that's not ideal. But if you're going to have like if you're going to have like high numbers and have high numbers are inevitable, I guess it's better to have a more diverse diverse pool of people than to just have one country completely dominate. And why? Because you're preventing prevent. I mean, it's beneficial to preventing one group from being that influential. But if the diversity of you accept like diversity is inevitable, it's better to have more more kind of balance a political political power. And then with the cultural element, I guess it depends like there are there are pros and pros and cons to the cultural side. But politically, uh, it's beneficial to have to have a balance then for one group to become like a main dominant political block. I mean, why do we have to take all these people from shithole countries? I guess it depends. Yeah, you're saying like there's there's downsides in some cases. Yeah, like if people make a hellhole of their home, like why would we want those people in our country? Yeah, there have been there have been there there are legitimate concerns. Are you so you're generally in the camp of there should be a complete moratorium. Oh yeah, that'd be my ideal. But if we are going to have immigrants, I don't want them coming from some crappy country. I want them coming from a high IQ country that's coherent with American culture, like Norway, like I'm happy to take all the Norwegians. Oh yeah. But that thing is that's where so if you look at the diversity lotto, the share from the share from Europe is much higher than than the general numbers. So I think for diversity basis about 30% and for general immigration, it's about 10%. Okay, you also write here that the American political establishment has not lived up to his commitment to uphold human rights and respect diversity. What what human rights do we have a commitment to? It's because there's all these that we're having all these crisis and Biden said that he basically said that he didn't want. He said that like he said that like what he said about Cuba, he said that he didn't he sounded unwelcoming and a lot of cases similar to how Trump blows. Right, but you're saying that we should uphold human rights. So who's human rights? And what do you mean by that? You're saying that we should. What are you? What are you talking about? In what you said that the American political establishment has not lived up to his commitment to uphold human rights. So what human rights are you talking about? Are you talking about the right to change your gender? Are you talking about the right to have? I don't know. Free free medicine. What human rights are you talking about? You said the this is you. You're writing this. The American political establishment has not lived up to his commitments to uphold human rights. So what human rights are you referring to? Oh, I was talking about these crisis is abroad and how how immigration is how two issues is how they're how just how the media has addressed them. So there is the focused a lot of these crisis that were not pertaining exclusively to US geopolitical interest and then discussing like how we should. I'm not calling for intervention, but I can't let me ask it again because you're not answering the question. What you want America to uphold his commitment. You want the American political establishment to live up to his commitment to uphold human rights. So what human rights are you talking about? This is like the seventh time I've asked this question. What human rights you want the American political establishment to uphold? I think they should be more engaged and just report report more on what's going on in other parts of the world. These crisis and have a do I mean have a discussion of should we be more welcoming? That should be discussed. Okay, so let me move on. You also say in the sentence that the American political establishment should respect diversity. What does it mean to respect diversity to so this. Yeah, this goes back is they're not respecting they're not respecting diversity. So I give some examples is one of them is the immigration bill that Kamala Harris proposed excludes people. It would push out people from smaller under represented countries. And then with with like another example would be like with CRT. This stuff is not it's not pro diversity. It's incredibly divisive and saying one group is inherently bad. So they're not they're not it's not really about diversity. It's more about about say they're basically saying what did it what CR so CRT if you take something like CRT, it's obviously it's saying one group is inherently inherently morally bad and has to make amends. Right. You refer to Americanism in your sub stack. What is Americanism? How would you define it? It's different things to different people. But the idea of that there's something exceptional about America purely based on ideology. And so with like there's talk of secession, I think America could I think it could very likely remain one cohesive political unit for another for another century. But I don't know how like sustainable this is where where the idea of being loyal, loyal to to mass to mass American society and its institutions based purely on ideological principles. Kind of the like the joke I read initially at Charlie Kirk said America is just an idea. I do seem the trend we're already seeing is more kind of more neo tribalism. And you more optimistic or pessimistic about America's future? A bit of both in some ways. Some ways pessimistic, but I think these changes, it's like something like pan enclaveism can bring about. It creates new opportunities. So like the benefit the benefits of an enclave that society that society as a whole does not provide. Like I do see I see that is that is beneficial. So it does seem America is in decline, but new opportunities could emerge out of that. So it sounds like you've been pretty excited by the idea of Cal exit. I mean, I assume there's no there's no way that there's any that could ever happen. What is it about that idea that intrigues you? I see America as it's just fun. It's fundamentally seems in so many ways it does seem fundamentally broken that there's no that the that there's nothing no that with this polarization, I could don't really see it as leading as being resolved. But I'd say mostly what I what I would say for Cal co co coexit that causes I think there needs to be political politics in California that is focused on distinctly California issues because with with the current leadership, their base, they're focused on American on American issues. So the Democratic Party in California, they're focused on fun, primarily and fundraising in other parts of the nation. And it's used it's used for donations. I don't even think I'm sure if Biden even campaigned here, and California issues have been neglected. And I put forth ideas like a new, a new California ideology. But I would say for the most part, like just just focusing on addressing crucial California issues, like the really basic practical stuff, like infrastructure, housing, water, the electrical grid, like basic energy, just basic stuff like that, even that's been neglected. Did you pay much attention to the blood sports phenomenon? And did you mourn its decline? I did when it was around, like I wouldn't say it was, yeah, it was entertaining, but I didn't really want to go as far as say I mourn, I mourned its decline. But it would be wouldn't mind seeing, seeing, seeing some of that come back. So with I did I didn't notice I need to catch your, your show you did with Andy no wiki to so you both of both you and Andy did follow ups. But were you going in this like your psychologically, were you intentionally trying to debate him about something about his book? Because some people like interpreted it as you like, you maugging him or disrespecting a social status or was, was it more kind of spontaneous or were you thinking previously to going on to interviewing him? Well, I knew with an Andy no wiki interview, I would not have to have a list of prepared questions like I do for you. Like before I interviewed you, I sat down read through your sub stack and I wrote down about 15 questions. But I know with Andy no wiki, I can just ask him hi, how are you? And he will meander for 10, 15 minutes. And then if I just listen to what he says, then I can ask follow up. So all my questions to Andy no wiki were spontaneous, except for whatever my opening question was. So as I listened to him, just like the despair and the depression was just so huge. And I had not read his novel at that point, I had, I had the page to his novel open on Amazon, so I could ask him questions about it, but I hadn't actually read it. And so just as I was listening to him, just the despair was so enormous that I just started picking up on it and spontaneously asking him questions about it. And he took, he took great offense to it. And it offended him and he thought it showed that I was a bad interviewer and a person of bad faith and many things like that. But to me it was, it was the best most compelling interview I could get out of, out of that topic. You know, so I just, I tried to make every show the best that I can. And so the, the novel came out of Andy Newecky. It wasn't just an abstract work of the intellect, but it came out of his despair with 2020 and his own personal despair. So that's why I asked him about it. Yeah, I even read his recent one, but I've read some of his earlier work like the Columbine Pilgrim. And I think I read Beauty in the Least. Like it is like themes. He writes a lot about themes of alienation and despair, which obviously is it is a pertinent theme to the kind of discourse overall, like it's relevant to my book. And then also, yeah, Matt Pegas has like a new book out, A Dragon Way, Dragon Day. Other is this kind of subgenre of literature that focuses on that. But yeah, that is a theme. But I didn't read it Andy Newecky's new book, but I think it's much more, it's much more political. Right. So he sees current America as a dystopia. And, and I just find that so unbelievable. Like if you think current America is a dystopia, then where is it better? Like is it better in North Korea? Is it better in Nigeria? Is it really that much better in England or France or Germany or Poland or Hungary? That you can be in a country that's so blessed and with still so many freedoms and opportunities as America and consider it a dystopia. The only explanation for that essentially is some kind of mood disorder, or just depression or chemical imbalance because when you're I think a lot of a lot of a lot of online politics when people talk about, they say that society is a dystopia or almost as kind of apocalyptic latching on to current events. Then obviously you get you get a kind of echo of that in the mainstream media as well. But the subset of the dissident media where it's very apocalyptic. Do you think that's reflecting on a more the individual's psychological despair? And it's like almost like fulfills a psychological need? Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you consider the United States of America dystopia, then you're there's some mental illness going on. I mean, there are just so many opportunities and blessings to be in the United States of America. And if you're all despairing about this country, then that's that's entirely with you. That has absolutely nothing to do with the United States of America. The United States of America definitely has problems. And life is particularly tough for certain people. But if you've gotten above average IQ, and you're filled with despair about life in the United States of America, then it's only it's only what's going on with your mood. It's nothing objective. So sad people only notice things that increase their sadness. I mean, that's just the nature of how we felt a reality. I mean, when I'm, I'm a happy guy about 95% of the time. So when I notice things, I notice things that kind of conform to my mood of happiness. And people who are depressed, they're only going to notice those things that conform to their mood of depression and people who, who are, I don't know, even killed, they're not going to be paying attention to things that are going to make them lose their, their even kill nature. So I think our mood and our temperament and, and our emotional state has a profound effect on what we notice outside. So when you're feeling down, you're just going to notice those things that kind of justify your feeling depressed. And that's, that's what I wanted I mean, to, to be all depressed about the United States of America and to think it's a dystopia. Yeah, that's entirely in one person's head. I mean, that's entirely his mood disorder. There's absolutely no objective reason to be despairing about the United States of America is fulfilling some need in a person to, to be depressed. I mean, obviously their own life doesn't work. And so their own life is, is hellish. And so do you think they want to take responsibility for that? You think people want to say, Oh, maybe I made some wrong choices. Maybe I need to get some help. Maybe I need to see a new therapist. Maybe I need to do something different. No, nobody wants to take responsibility for their own misery. They want to project it out onto America and go, Oh, this is a hellhole. You know, I'm really fantastic. I'm a wonderful guy. I've just filled with love and light. And it's only because I'm living in a dystopia that I'm filled with despair. It's just such incredible numbers of delusion. Do you think it's narcissism if someone says that they're in despair? Because that would that was a major theme in earlier work. Like, is these like, these deeper psychological needs and causes of issues. But we're people say that their life is in despair, but they do feel important because they know, they know the truth about the way the world works. Yeah, I remember. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's okay. I remember there are times in my life when I got more into dissident thinking or conspiracy thinking. And when when very little of my life I could objectively be proud of, at least I comforted myself by saying, well, at least I see through the bullshit. And I'm trying to think Richard Yates wrote a novel Revolutionary Road. But in all his novels, they always feature mentally ill people, people out of asylums, who nonetheless see aspects of reality more clearly than the so called sane. And I've also read about people who work in insane homes that one of the characteristics of the residents of insane asylums is that they, they widely believe that they see through the bullshit. So yeah, I think people who are obsessed with this purported American dystopia, and nothing in their life is really working very well. I think they get much of their sense of worth out of their feeling that, well, hey, at least I see through the bullshit. And it's a delusion. But with their conspiratorial dissident thinking, the more and more their life doesn't work. And so therefore, the more and more they need their cope, the copium of believing that they see through the bullshit. And I realized for myself that much of my ability to see through the bullshit was delusion. And yeah, sometimes I really did see through the bullshit. And sometimes mentally ill people really do see through the bullshit that normal people don't. But also much of the time for many people who get much of their sense of worth out of their feeling that they see through the bullshit, it's a delusion. And I mean, Andy Nweki didn't want to say that he sees through the bullshit. And that's the major aspect of his sense of self. But in our conversation, I mean, I think it's clear that the people who listen to Andy Nweki and read Andy Nweki do so. Why else would they listen to him or read him unless they believe that he sees through the bullshit? I mean, they're not listening to him or reading him because of the beauty of his pro style. I think there's more nuance because like you do have people with extreme neuroticism, who are hypersensitive to negative aspects about society or social problems with someone is very low in neuroticism, then they might just everything is working for them. They might see ever since everything's working for them, both their psychological state and then their personal life is doing well, then they might kind of turn a blind eye to certain things. So there's there's two angles to it. Let me think about that there too. And yeah, so so people we often don't realize our vulnerability until it comes on us, like often, you know, we've done fine because we have a connection with family or connection with the community or connection with the job or educational institution. And then suddenly the thing that we've depended upon to keep us sane goes away. And suddenly we're thrust back on our own resources that we don't we don't do too well. So obviously the more disconnected a person is the fewer attachments he has to other people, the more lonely a person is the more likely he is to be filled with despair. On the other hand, if someone has has a role, say providing for a family, or you have a sick relative that you're looking after, or you have some important contribution to make in your community, then you're going to have reasons for living. And you're not going to have as much time or inclination to wallow in despair. And do you think, do you think that despair, do you think it contributes to creativity, to intellectual and philosophical endeavors or would you say majority of it is mostly maladaptive? I would say most of it's maladaptive, but it certainly does seem that artists do have higher levels of neuroticism than regular people. But I'm highly, highly, highly suspicious of personality psychology. Personality psychology is virtually entirely based on people's self reported self reported attitudes and experiences. There's just no very little that's empirical about talking about like you're like there's a psychologist. I don't know if you've heard of them. I think or maybe I don't know if he's a psychologist or a counselor. His name is Dr. Todd Ronde. He's like a major YouTuber. And he's I'd say he's fairly mainstream, but he'll do videos reviewing major public figures and also true crime stuff. He'll analyze them. He'll analyze the person, the ocean, ocean psychology score, openness, conscientiousness and so forth. How much validity do you think there is to I'm highly, highly skeptical? Yeah, highly, highly skeptical. I think it's like Myers-Briggs, which some people are really into, but yeah, no, zero, zero, you know, empirical validity is just a con and a scam. And so personality psychology just has no empirical basis. It's just entirely people's self reporting, you know, just bubbling in their own self reported feelings and thoughts and people's self reporting is just not very useful. So I think that this may be something to it, but I consider the overall ocean openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, neuroticism, agreeableness. I consider it not of much value because people's personality will depend tremendously on situations. So there are situations where you are going to be outgoing. There are situations where you're going to be neurotic. There are situations where you're going to be agreeable. There are situations where you're going to be conscientious. And then if you place yourself in different situations, you're going to be in the opposite of all those. So many of these supposedly innate personality traits, they're they're entirely situation dependent. There's no personality trait that you have that you're going to exhibit in all situations. Like certain situations are going to make you nutty and neurotic. Other situations you're going to be agreeable and extroverted. Other situations you're going to be conscientious and extroverted. So the situation I think shapes people much more than than most people consider. So yeah, with like a psychology, how much would you say with psychological problems? If you had to estimate how much would you say is biological and how much is situational and shaped by personal experience? Of course. Yeah, I'd say probably half is genetic and then probably then the rest is some combination of situational and imprinting environment. No previous experiences. I mean, but how about you? Like on ocean? What's a trait that you're very high in on the ocean personality? Yeah, I took it so. So very, very high on openness, middle level, right in the middle on conscientiousness, low on extroversion, moderate to low in agreeableness, high on then pretty high in eroticism. OK, so let's just take one of them openness. So if you were running late, you're not going to be open, right? You're running late to something that's important to you. You're not going to be open to what's going on around you. So there's a situation where even someone who's really high in openness like you, you're going to have and I'm going to have like, you know, laser focus like, OK, I've got these three things that I really need to get done in the next two hours. I don't really have time to be open to new experiences right now. So in that situation, you're not going to be open or let's say there's the other situations where I don't know, you're getting paid to do a task that doesn't require openness, right? In fact, openness will detract from your ability to do the task, right? So if you're getting paid enough money, you're going to put your purported openness on the shelf and you're just going to focus on conscientiousness. So a lot of these traits, I think are highly dependent on on situation. And like as far as high neuroticism, like there will be times when you you have things kind of lined up and you're conscientiously moving towards your goals and your being fairly diligent and your purported neuroticism is going to be quite low. Then there are other times, let's say you've got abundant spare time and you're feeling isolated, then these these traits of of neuroticism are going to come out. But in a different situation, they're not going to come out. What do you think? Yeah, I would I would agree with that that they can be shaped by by situational events. But there's still like there are crucial things. So the the biology is a factor. The biological factor, then your overall life experience, like your brain, your brain is wired like there is permanent permanent wiring in your brain that impacts your psyche through and I guess it's more it's more and more rigid as you go further on you get in life the further stages. But I agree with you like these situational events. So if there is a you mentioned the example of running late to like a job interview or report an appointment or to work in general, and events will force people to be fleck to be flexible or to put aside some of these characteristics even. But the thing is it could be then it could also be more will be more challenging to a person who had a contradicting trait. But then there could be a person who's normally like normally neurotic and they have an experience that's so positive that it dramatically reduces those neurotic characteristics. So it really all it really all depends. But I agree with you that that situational factors could do change do change those those characteristics and personality types. And what do you think about the idea that the devil will find work for idle hands to do? Yeah, that does that that that could be that could be the case. But then again, it depends on the on the person. Some people benefit. Some people benefit a lot from leisure. But then others they really need the the sort of like enforced structure. So it all depends on the individual. And you've got a latest sub stack is on Cape independence and shared California values. Could you talk about that? Oh, yeah, that was just that was with the collect the cold. There was a collect group. They put out a resolution in support for the Cape independence movement. I'm not sure if we're familiar with that. That's region a region of South Africa. And I had that was to plug the recent show I did with a representative of the of the Cape party in South Africa. My mode that was the most recent podcast I did. That was just a short article to plug that interview that show. Okay, and who have you been talking to you on your your podcast? Run me through some of your recent topics and guess. Let's see. That was the most recent one Cape independence representative Lucas Yonza Van Viren. And then prior to that I interviewed Matt Pegas about his new novel. And I was interviewed by Lipton Matthews. He's a libertarian YouTuber from Jamaica who interviewed me. And that was a simulcast similar to what we're doing. And then I interviewed Geo Geo Panetti. He's an art commentator on YouTube and Twitter. I interviewed Bimbo Ubermensch. I interviewed a few of the recall candidates for governor. And you participating in an organized religion these days? I attend attend church sometimes. So well, yeah, when I'm hanging out with Matt Pegas, we yeah, we attend Catholic church sometimes, but not not generally I don't. And you and Matt working on anything these days? We don't we've talked about we've talked about another documentary like maybe Supply Two in the fall. But right now we don't have any major formal projects. Okay. And how about your novel? Any any plans for a second novel? Yeah, I do have a sequel to my first novel. And that is coming out. That's coming out pretty soon. I estimate in about a month. Oh, wow. And so talk to me about your novel. So I don't want to give away the plot. But it is a seek it is a sequel to the first novel. And it does it takes place in California. So it does. It has these California issues I'm talking about in the sub stack, but then put into this kind of surreal. It's like a surreal kind of dark comedy. But dealing with it does address it does address California issues. And then it's also a sequel to my first first novel. Okay, is it as dark as your first novel? Yeah, I would say it is it is dark. You haven't read my first novel. No. So I don't know. Some people say it's dark. Some people say it can be I think it was actually a bit cartoonish, but in some ways, it is but it's also more it's surreal. But it also feels a lot more sober. Because I do. Yeah, I am proud of my first novel. But reading it over maybe it is a bit like sometimes feels too much like a cartoon, which is not it's not that's not there's not inherently like a problem. But it's just not really where I'm going like where I'm going with the kind of evolution and it does the writing. I think my like my writing style has dramatically, that's dramatically improved. And that's expected for for authors. But it is it is like surreal like trying to try to try to capture like the experience of the subconscious. Accurately, I think I yeah, I've succeeded with that on my new book novel. And the first one, it felt more like a cartoon, which is not which is which is which I'm fine with that. But I just want to evolve from there. And what you're working on some kind of documentary with David Cole Stein. Yeah, it was. We were working on a documentary about the the Gospel of Gibson. So dealing with Mel Gibson, his church, his religious sect of Catholicism, state of acontism, and his family background, David David Cole interviewed. He had an in person video with Mel's late father, Hudson Gibson. And we're also like I we did an interviews about themes about that that's the focal point and then dealing with with Mel Gibson's family background. And some of the Hollywood controversies issues, the the religious the religious sect as well. So you're acquainted with a lot of people who who've had some interest in participation in dissident politics. But I assume you and most of the people you know did not get burned and did not go did not go crazy with it. Unlike many people who had their lives ruined by by flirting with things like the alt right. So what's your reflection on the people who got burned and their lives turned upside down and the people who who were interested but didn't didn't destroy their lives through their through their participation in distant politics. Yeah, so I don't think the people like in my my inner circle. But yeah, definitely people have interacted with or interviewed. I'm sure a lot of them it has had a negative impact. And I mean, there are a lot of external factors people impacted like personally impacted by deep platforming which has gotten gotten much worse. But I also think a lot of it was this the psychological mindset because I remember when Trump got elected. So many people were literally thinking like this is it like our group is in power. And they acted they acted like literally like they were in power which when they obviously were not. And they really got caught up in and this is a totally different group that what then the group that was involved with the capital the capital incident earlier this year it's a totally those people were they were more I think a lot of those they were more like conventional actually more conventional Trump supporters. So it's a it's a different group. But I think a lot of it is the psychological like those people. But the thing is it was some of the same issues because they thought they thought Trump was going to come in and save them after that speech. And there are external factors that individuals have no control over. But I think a lot of those people they failed to have an accurate under their psychological internal dialogue didn't match the actual actual reality. So that was that was a problem and some people just some people were maybe doing there were people who were doing great as far as having many fans and some financial success and then these external factors like that de-platforming harm them and then obviously doxing. So a lot of yeah a lot of different things. But the people the people I interact with the most I don't think they were really that that effective but observe observing others like many people being involved with this did have a very very negative impact on their life. And how do you account for this not having a negative impact on your life. I wasn't I wasn't aggressively involved with any any movement organization. Primarily I'm I'm an author commentator and a journalist. But I was never like a hardcore like activist or found one group like identifying yourself with a group that is extremely controversial that that does seem that that was a huge factor for many. Yeah. So you managed not to stake your life on on being an Agilord. Oh no. But but so many people did blow themselves up. They they they got a little taste of the limelight and they they just wanted to sit around being thought leaders or day on podcasts. But something kept you more anchored in reality. Oh yeah. Yeah for for sure. But I do think I do think like luck factors in too. Some people some people have brand like there's something about their brand that makes that that makes them a target. And if they're very explicit about one particular issue that brings that brings negative attention. That I mean that's that's not well that's obviously I mean that's their decision but also think there's an element of of luck. But there's also an element of how people brand themselves. A lot of people yeah like optics like the optics cut meme but it is. Yeah optics is obviously really important like a lot of people just had terrible optics. And some people then some people had OK optics and they were still impacted too. So many different factors like from psychology to branding factor in. And what's your experience in attraction level to conspiracy theories. I think they're they're partial. They're probably partial truth. But a lot of a lot of it does get like as far as popular conspiracy theories like some partial truth as in there's powerful interest to want to consolidate power. But then a lot of stuff gets embellished and some of it just comes from it feels like a psychological need. So I'd say if you take like popular conspiracy theories it depends because like different I understand the argument that like who gets to define what is a conspiracy theory because something could be legitimate and could get smeared. But I'd say but a lot of them are just complete. A lot of them are just complete nonsense. I'd say maybe like partial partial truths then stuff gets embellished. And what was your reaction to Q and on particularly when we then had all these we had the Me Too movement and we had all sorts of on and savory revelations by about people like Jeffrey Epstein. What was your reaction to Q and on? Well, well, there's obviously what you said to like Jeffrey Epstein. Obviously that's something that like what the mainstream covers. So the main obviously I don't trust the mainstream media entirely. Obviously not. But the Q and on stuff is completely yeah, completely ridiculous. And I think it's also a pretty small. I don't think through that. I think it's I mean, it's incredibly kooky. But I think it's a pretty small group. I think the media like exaggerated their importance. I don't think it's that significant. But I do remember before that a platforming I would see like accounts stumble upon them on Twitter that were pro Trump pro Q and on. But it's pretty it's overall it's pretty kooky. And it's not that it's not that significant. And what what level of energy did you have invested in the whole Donald Trump phenomenon? I was enthusiastic in 2016, but not not so much the last election. Right. And so did you feel a void in your life when Joe Biden became president? I was fairly, fairly neutral to slightly negative. The I wasn't wasn't like because I wasn't a hardcore Trump supporter. I was he wasn't didn't have a dramatically negative psychological impact. But not really I mean, not really a big fan, not a fan of fan of a Biden. So let's talk a little bit about big tech. I notice a lot of despair among distance about big tech. But at the same time, we've got all these alternative platforms opening up that are fairly wide open like Odyssey, bit chute, rumble. And so for people who want to feel despairing, they can find reasons with big tech at the same time. There are so many other alternatives by which you can spread your ideas that that to me, again, that the trace to field despair is is a function more of some kind of mood disorder because there are plenty of reasons for optimism. But what's what's your reaction to big tech censorship? And at the same time, the rise of all these alternative platforms? Yeah, I think there are there are opportunities of them. But I'm concerned like, what happened with both like what happened with gab? Is it became like an echo chamber? And with Twitter, like you can, there's so many different there's exchange of so many different ideas and so many different people with deep platforming, like, if you go on, I never I never actually signed up for gab. And I actually was I was deep platformed on Twitter early this year. But it just seems like one of the was just one of those kind of like massive bandings with an algorithm. That was my impression. It wasn't specifically targeted against me. But I do think a lot of these alternative, the old tech, and there, there are there are great a lot of ways, but they do seem to be too much too much of an echo and echo chamber, like having there's the issue that mean there's the issue of a group is limited growth for any for any kind of movement, but also exchanging new ideas. It's actually not because you want you do want to be engaged with with the world to some degree. If a group that's already kind of marginal and they go off in their own their own online community and then they'll exchange ideas with each other. Then that's I don't that's not I don't see that as healthy. Okay, let's start to wind things up. Any any final words anything you'd like to share and anything that you'd like to promote? Yeah, I would just like to plug my my sub stack again. And I do plan on writing, focusing primarily on California issues and benefits. We talked to this earlier, like personal benefits to to pan on clavism. What the pan benefits to pan on clavism. I do I do see it as actually growing growing in popularity as an idea. I do think a lot of people find it to be I don't the only people who are offended were maybe a few people who were extremely who were like extremely woke or for the most part a lot of people are just they just find it to be maybe kind of alien or are different. But it did. But then some other people said it was brilliant and it does seem I do think I do see it to be catching on, even though like I haven't really like all these labels, including rallying multiculturalism or pluralism. I don't know if it will or neo tribalism, just seeing people forming but I mean people who are successful and then it really I think I think this idea of neo tribalism. It relates to people who who who are successful, but then also like fringe Paula fringe politics as well, like building up building up communities of like minded people rather than just being an individual part of society, mass society that I do that is something that I actually do see catching on as the main one of the one of the main trends to keep an eye on in the near future. OK, great. Thanks a lot, Robert. Thanks for stopping by the show.