 Well good afternoon everyone you are very very welcome to this discussion on the future of Anglo-Irish relations. It forms part of the IIEA's 30th anniversary celebration so congratulations to everyone at the institute. My name is Dervil McDonald and it is a privilege to be chairing what I think everyone will agree is a most timely session on the future of relationships between the UK and Ireland. I'm sure that many of you like me tuned into the earlier webinar that Michael Collins facilitated between Tony Blair and Bertie Hearn and it was an absolutely fascinating discussion that spoke to many of the issues that we will be discussing today. The one advantage that we have over the earlier participants is that we've just a little bit more time to delve into the issues but it was a fascinating discussion and you should look back on it in due course. So we're going to pick up the button and look at some of the immediate issues of concern in respect of UK-Irish relations but we're also going to not quite get out of a crystal glow but we are going to look a bit further down the line and look at how Anglo-Irish relations could and should develop in the wake of Brexit. First of all a bit of housekeeping before I formally introduce you to today's panellists. The format of today I'm going to pose an opening question to each of our panellists. They'll be given lots of respect and time for that but I may have to cut across them later on as the conversation advances. We're then going to have a facilitated discussion between myself and the panellists but after that it is over to you because this is an interactive discussion. You are a critical part of this conversation and we'd love you to share any questions, thoughts or insights that you have through the Zoom Q&A function and I will try and get to them as to as many of them as possible. If you can please identify yourself when you're submitting a question and just to also remind you that we're recording live so behave and we are fully being recorded and you can also get in the discussion on whatever social media platform including Twitter that you're on using the hashtag IIEA30 that's IIEA30 and please do because there are many people who perhaps won't be able to join the conversation with us now that would like perhaps to take part in that wait. So without further ado let me turn to our panellists and I'm just thrilled as a moderator to be joined by such a fantastic lineup of speakers who are going to bring very insightful and in many cases very very different perspectives on the current and future state of Anglo-Irish relations. I'm going to start in alphabetical order so we'll start with Matt Carty who's a Sinn Féin TD for Kevin Monhan and who serves as the party spokesperson on agriculture. He sits on both the Aractus Agricultural and the All Important Public Accounts Committees. He previously served as we all know as MEP for Midlands Northwest Constituency from 2014 to 2020 and he previously chaired Sinn Féin's Uniting Ireland project group so we should expect to hear a lot about that. Next we have Dr Kitty Hayward who is Professor of Political Sociology at Queen's University in Belfast and a senior fellow of the UK in the changing Europe think tank. She is perhaps along with Tony Connolly one of the most internationally recognised experts on Brexit and the island of Ireland particularly with respect to the Irish border which we heard so much about earlier in that conversation between Tony Blair and Bertie Hearn. She's an Eisenhower fellow and she's also a fellow in the Senator George Mitchell Institute for Global Peace Security and Justice at Queen's. Our third speaker needs no introduction it is the right honourable Julian Smith who served as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland from July 2019 to February 2020. A period of time we can all agree was all too short he's been described by some as the most successful Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in over a decade and by others as the most successful Secretary of State for Northern Ireland since Mo Lom. His tenure was short just eight months but during that time partialing was restored and a Brexit agreement that avoided a hard border on the island of Ireland was reached perhaps our first question should be to you Julian what would have happened had you stayed but hold on there we'll hold that question for the Conservative MP for Skipton and Rippon since 2010. Finally let me introduce you to Claire Suggdon who is an independent MLA for East London Darius seat that she's held since 2014. If I'm correct an independent Unionist she's one of my favourite politicians in the Northern Ireland because she's an independent everything but she did serve again like Julian all too briefly as Minister for Justice of Northern Ireland from May 2016 to March 2017 she previously served on Colrain Borough Council from I think it was just for a year 2013 to 2014 before she was elevated to higher rank so that is our panel and good afternoon everyone and welcome to you all and with all of those introductions done I might sit back and relax as I ask you Julian Smith maybe I'll go to you for the first question because and perhaps before we get to Northern Ireland I want to ask you about the Union the State of the Union because like all of us we've been watching intently and with great interest the outcome of the Scottish parliamentary elections and the success of Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP but also in recent weeks and months as we are all aware there have been tensions in Northern Ireland with regard to the implementation of the protocol which I know we'll speak about in full later but from where you're sitting now with Brexit a firm reality can you perhaps give us your perspective on the current state of the Union well first of all it's great to be here it's great to see so many people that I have worked with before I think Matt I haven't worked with but Katie and Claire it's great to great to see you and look I think clearly the Union is going through some challenges and significant challenges and this was sort of always going to happen I think post-Brexit obviously when I was the government's chief whip I was working hard to try to get a softer Brexit which I think would have mitigated some of these impacts but it was the this sort of Brexit process was also always going to I think cause challenges I think you know in the fullness of time looking back at how Brexit took place the many many failures across the piece in the UK and Ireland and the EU on resolving this issue you know earlier and on trying to kind of bring people together you know it's the subject of many many PhDs I've lost a lot of hair trying to persuade people to vote for this a reason it may break the deal but I think there are failures across the piece on on that period of time and the consequences I think you know in terms of the topic today Irish-Anglo relationships have been very significant because I think the most difficult political concept out of trust has been very challenged and trust is vital as we all know you know in the best of times and easiest of times but particularly important when we talk about our joint responsibilities for the Good Friday Agreement our joint responsibilities for under the STRAN processes for the Northern Ireland Executive and I think you know there is now a lot of work to do you know across the Union to restore trust I would argue there are some really good reasons to be part of the United Kingdom but I would also argue very strongly to colleagues that unless you understand empathize and accept that many people have a different view restoring the trust that needs to take place will be problematic we have to accept in Northern Ireland that that is a contested part of the United Kingdom that was implicit and explicit in the Good Friday Agreement and I think then you know you talked earlier about the persuasion of many middle-grand voters to preserve and grow the Union it is those unaligned voters that the United Kingdom needs to keep making the case too and I think I would argue unless you understand you know many of their sort of sympathy towards nationalism it's very difficult to actually then confidently argue the case for the Union so I think we should be very confident but there's a lot of legacy damage done through the Brexit process and I think you know finally I would just say that one of the big areas that I was very grateful for when I was negotiating with Simon Coveney for the Restoration of Storm and was the relationship between Ireland and the UK I think I don't want to speak for Simon but my view was that the best work was done you know off at formal settings really getting to know him getting to know all the political parties respecting all the political parties and I think you know we do have to do that if we're going to fully restore this relationship. Thank you thanks a million Julian Kitty hey would I want to go to you next because probably one of those dominant themes of the earlier conversation between Tony Blair and Bertie Hearn and I think it's widely acknowledged that a very unique relationship but you know Tony Blair said it's the basic human relationships that matter Bertie Hearn said that even in the darkest kind of ours and hard yards of opposition they trusted each other and we've just heard what as Julian has outlined in terms of maybe the wider UK as a whole the state of the union but from a Northern Ireland perspective I was just wondering can you share with us two things first your kind of view on the state of flux of the union but perhaps more critically as you say it in terms of the impact of Brexit on though that really important triangular relationships not just north south but also Belfast Dublin and London and I think that Tony Blair earlier was just expressing a really deep concern that those relations are not where they were 23 years ago. Thank you very much Dervil and may I also congratulate the IEA on 30 years I'm going to feel very old now and saying this but it was celebrating its 10th anniversary when I was a PhD student in UCD and at that time I was benefiting greatly from its publications and events and it's still very much the case today so congratulations to them. I also want to say it's a great privilege to be on this panel and thank you to you Dervil for it for moderating it to fellow Eisenhower fellow I have to put that in and also greatest respect for for Julian, Claire and Matt. I am very conscious though that I'm not a politician and so my answers to your questions are going to reflect that and in that I'm going to draw on empirical data radically as a social scientist to try and answer that question about the impact of Brexit on relationships it's a really fascinating question and I'm going to answer by beginning by focusing on what people have in common we immediately tend to go for what people disagree about but actually drawing on Northern Ireland life and times data and a recent lucid talk poll that was conducted for for us in Queens on a project that David Finnimer is leading we have some data on what people have in common in relation to where we stand now so the majority of people seven out of ten people in the north think that the Good Friday Alphast agreement is the best basis for governing Northern Ireland that's a really positive point I think and also seven out of ten people think that the UK should have a close relationship with the EU that too is really important and significant however there are so negative things that people have in common so seven out of ten people across the board in Northern Ireland are concerned about the economic impacts of Brexit and have very specific issues that they raise in relation to that and also seven or six or seven out of ten across the board in Northern Ireland are concerned about the current impact of the protocol particularly in relation to the political stability of Northern Ireland and we can perhaps understand why that is and they also think that it's having a negative effect on Northern Ireland's constitutional place in the UK and again that's not just exclusively for unionists that's that's recognised as changing Northern Ireland's relationship with Britain and in terms of a very negative finding in terms of what people have in common in Northern Ireland the lucid talk poll conducted there was showing that across the board there's very low levels of trust in the UK government five percent of people trust the UK government to handle to manage Northern Ireland's interest in relation to the protocol and very low levels of trust in Whitehall as well and indeed low levels of trust in the Northern Ireland executive and assembly even closer to home so we see how this is a sort of a you can see how this sort of sense of precarious position that Northern Ireland is in at the moment is exacerbated by a lack of trust in those who are charged with managing to move us on from this situation and now in terms of the relationships what people disagree on that's quite a that's quite striking because of course people disagree in Northern Ireland about whether Brexit was good or bad and also particularly they disagree now and whether the protocol is a good or a bad thing and we see a very clear line of division on that and also they disagree on whether Irish government and the EU is responsive to Northern Ireland's needs they're all kind of agreed that they don't think the UK government is at the current time anyway and also they disagree on whether Brexit makes United Ireland more likely or not so when we look at this it's not just about Unionists and Nationalists anymore there's a new level of difference and new types of relationships that have to be managed within Northern Ireland and most strikingly this falls along remain and leave lines so even if people don't necessarily think in those terms how they used how they voted in that referendum has very much affected how they're seeing things working out today in Northern Ireland and that's worth recognizing because it does change us move a slightly different position from the Unionist nationalist difference and indeed people hold those remain and leave identities strongly so those who are say that they are leavers or remain is six out of ten say they're very strongly so and that's quite different to Unionists and Nationalists whereas it's about three out of ten say they're very strongly that also really significantly we see a very big difference between younger people and older people and younger people much more likely to be anti-Brexit much more likely to be pro and hoping that the protocol could be a good thing and wanting that close relationship between the UK and the EU wanting the UK to align more with the EU rules etc so we see a post-Brexit context that's very different and of course that's because it's changed the relationships between Britain and Ireland and now those relationships that you pointed to in relation to Dublin, Belfast London of course it's no longer just that what the protocol has done remarkably is mean that it's very much more now about Brussels and London and this adds to this sense of precarity I think and it's important time now thinking about the theme of this event what can we learn from that British Irish relationship and the points that Julian was making in relation to trust building and relationship building and good communication behind the scenes relationship building that can now bear fruit when it comes to handling Northern Ireland's really distinct position and Lisa referred earlier on to Lisa Whitten into the peripheral sense of Northern Ireland can the UK and Ireland now sorry the UK and the EU recognise that Northern Ireland shouldn't be peripheral even though it's a very small place shouldn't be peripheral to their concerns that what they do has a very direct impact on this place and particularly on the generations to come yeah I'm really really looking forward to reading Lisa Whitten's piece which kind of spoke to how peripheral Northern Ireland was when when you know when the UK was exceeding into Europe and now how central it has become and congratulations at least Claire once again Matt I want to come to you next just to pick up on something that Katie was talking about the different contexts the different types of relationships and that growing middle ground one of the crowning achievements it is widely accepted of the Good Friday Agreement was on that issue of identity of that where you didn't have to declare British Irish but in fact that you could be both perhaps neither but that there is this growing sense of a unique identity of being Northern Irish and I suppose maybe in a border girl I'm one of them but looking down the line earlier we did hear Tony Brown, Bertie, her and talk about the how the one thing that they didn't contemplate at all when the context of Good Friday Agreement was either a Brexit or an our exit if that's the correct way to do it but even at the present moment even with what's happened in Scotland and there's no sign of majority yet and you know unification is not an inevitability so I suppose my question to you is what do we say to that middle ground voter who is increasingly identifying as Northern Irish and perhaps is not clinging to those old identities that would perhaps give rise to what Bertie earlier described earlier as a sectarian headcount in the event of a border call and you're welcome very very welcome by the way. Well thank you Darvula and thanks to the institute for the invite to be here and to bring I suppose a republican perspective to the debate. In relation to identity I suppose the simple thing to say is that nobody's identity is going to change if there's a united Ireland and you know those who are British will remain British those who are Northern Irish those who are Irish and those who are Portuguese and whatever the myriad of new identities that have made Ireland their home that will all be the case I think the challenge will be to ensure that whatever one's identity that the work has been put in to ensure that they will feel at home and part of the new Ireland that we're trying to build. The second point I'd make is this the reason why I and many others want to see united Ireland is because we believe it will be a better Ireland we believe that through unity we as a nation will be better placed to address the challenges that we're going to face better place to deliver good public services better placed and to grow our economy and to ensure that that economy is a fair one so they're the reasons why we want to see a united Ireland and therefore if we believe as I do that a united Ireland would be better for everyone who lives in it not only then do we have a right to advocate and work towards it we actually have an obligation as political leaders and to do that so what we're asking for in the here and now is for the planning to take place and that's what we've been encouraging the the Irish government and all parties to engage in the conversations as to what a united Ireland might look like and how we can actually make it and the the greatest success that it can be for everybody now that's not to say that everybody who engages in that debate has to agree with what the outworking of any referendum but it's in recognition that it could take place and it's in recognition of the failures of the Brexiteers who campaigned for politically for something for over two decades without any clue on the day after the referendum as to what the next step we want to have those conversations and be before beforehand so the big message that I would bring is that nobody has anything to fear from this debate and I don't think it's logical or reasonable for people to put in place barriers for that debate to even take place so when Bertie Herron says that the institutions have to be up and running before we can have a referendum I agree that it is better if the institutions are up and running but he needs to recognize that by saying that he's actually providing and sucker to those who would like to bring down the institutions because he's telling them if you want to avoid the Irish unity debate then actually political stalemate is the way to do it I don't think that's the way to move forward so to me Irish unity is the progressive sensible common approach position to take I recognize that others take a different position what I want to ensure is that we have the space where we can actually trash these things out but crucially throughout the heart of this debate has to be the need to plan so that when we come to a point and I believe it will happen sooner than many people and perhaps would like or realize but when it comes to the point where we go to vote in in referenda I want everybody to know exactly what it is that they want to be voting for thank you Matt and I'm going to go over to you now Claire Sogdon because Bertie Herron identified three preconditions in fact he's been talking about them for the best part of two decades that the institutions will be up and running that they would be planning but critically the third aspect was persuasion and what he described earlier this afternoon that there would be a reasonably large proportion of the unionist community that would be amenable or open to it and I wanted to ask you it'll be a different perspective from that about that prospect for the middle ground because I think the one thing that everybody on this panel will agree is that they will be critical to any to the outcome of any constitutional questions that are posed and you sit and you interest me because you sit in the middle ground but you're an independent unionist you're a feminist so perhaps your views and social mores and other issues which agitate Northern Ireland from time to time might be very very different from perhaps more traditional aspects of that community but who is going to represent that unionist middle ground in any referendum who are they going to vote for how are they going to be persuaded and and not just persuaded but supported and reassured because one of the things I think that we are witnessing at the moment is certainly a crisis within unionism and I think it's it's not too strong you know to say that but what what do we do about that middle ground from I suppose um what I can say perhaps from traditionally what has been your part of the community if I can put it in in those terms Claire and so I think it's important to note that when you become a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly as per the Northern Ireland Act every MLI has to sign the the role as a unionist nationalist as other and that's to ensure a fair cross community representation and any decisions that we may take as MLAs of Northern Ireland and I think that's important and if anything what that does is that the good friend agreement certainly for me encourages us all to have an aspiration in relation to Northern Ireland so when someone asks me the question I'm going to tell them that I think that Northern Ireland remaining within the United Kingdom is the best context in which we provide public services for example healthcare education infrastructure the economy and but briefly I respect that there are other who don't share that view and who believe that aspiring towards a united Ireland would perhaps be a better context within that you know so for me unionism and nationalism are basic fundamental political ideologies that we build on every other issue about and I think sometimes in Northern Ireland we get too focused on on dealing with the constitutional question when really as an MLA on a day-to-day basis I don't deal with that question I deal with it with the bread and butter issues with the issues that are maturing to my constituents so certainly from as a representative of people as a representative of East London Dairy if you were asking me how do we persuade the people of Northern Ireland toward either aspiration we need to make Northern Ireland work we need to look at the governance arrangements of Northern Ireland and we need to recognize what isn't working what is working I suppose because I get quite frustrated when people often describe Northern Ireland as a basket case it's not a basket case you only have to look at you know statistics you know what 23 years ago compared with now it's not perfect but then maybe there is the north of England I'm sure Julian can attest to that there are issues everywhere and as representatives of people as people who scrutinize the government we need to recognize what the policy issues are and we need to improve them because fundamentally that's our job and I believe that's what the people of Northern Ireland expect and want from us you know and Kerry talked to towards a confidence in governance in Northern Ireland she's 100% but that confidence isn't just with one community or another that confidence is right across governments and we do have a five-party executive at the minute in fairness I'm not entirely content with because I don't think it is congestive to give government and Julian can maybe speak to this in terms of why that was required in 2020 in terms of trying to create some form of stability but truthfully I think in Northern Ireland if we really want to move forward and again that's in the context of the status quo or if people want to pursue towards the end we have to make Northern Ireland work and for five years we haven't and you know I think that underpins all the other issues that are happening at the minute whether it's Brexit the issues with the Northern Ireland protocol the the feelings of discontent within the loyalist communities the confidence in placing there's so many things going on in Northern Ireland but in 2021 we really have to ask ourselves what do we want and I think people just want to live happy healthy lives and we do that by good governance. Well listen I just remind everyone just IIEA 30 if you're joining in the conversation or sharing it online please and please keep your questions coming in I know there's lots coming in already I'm going to indulge myself as moderator just ask one or two more myself and I want to go back to you Julian Smith because earlier both Bertie Ernan and Tony Blair spoke to the risks to the safety of the Good Friday agreement and concerns around stability and as a member of the Tory party I can't expect you to argue for anything other than the maintenance of the union but is it the Good Friday agreement and some sort of gosh to throw even more mad terminology and an enhanced status quo with the protocol that you think is the solution for the near and immediate term given the many challenges and Claire has spoken to some of them that are being faced by the people of Northern Ireland not necessarily related to identity we're talking about health education you know common threats everything and I suppose it's that stability question what do you think is the best course forward at present? Well I think at the moment the priority has to be on the life chances incomes and health of citizens in Northern Ireland and I think the best way to achieve that is through what is there at the moment the hybrid solution that came through the Good Friday agreement and which comes through the protocol the protocol is not going to go anywhere so the best thing the best course of action is to make sure it is optimised and for that we need the EU we need Dublin to help support our work with the EU and to the UK to work together to improve that there are big big opportunities for Northern Ireland coming out of the protocol you know the level of inward investment discussions that is taking place at the moment is really high and you know I think that the huge benefits of the protocol over you know the fullness of time but the most important thing is honesty the protocol is not going anywhere and at the moment the Good Friday agreement isn't going anywhere so I think the best thing is to for everybody to acknowledge that and to work with that and the opportunities that gives at whatever your political persuasion I think you know are significant I think on Claire's point although the executive has been pretty challenged at times in the last year I would argue very strongly that if we hadn't have got the executive back in place in January 2020 before the pandemic struck we would have been in all sorts of difficulty and you know this is a unique situation where you know all these parties are working together and delivering and I hope that over the coming months the focus will be on delivery I know there's an election coming up but really day-to-day governance you know as as Claire's you know implied in her comments is key and particularly as we come out of the pandemic that's fantastic thanks Julian and Katie I just want to go to you on the protocol because I think it would be an understatement to say that the arrangements the protocol is introduced are heavily contested and proving exceptionally challenged to implement I see that you and David Finnemore were writing recently for the Institute Montaigne and you said this would be of concern anywhere but is particularly alarming in Northern Ireland given its weak economy fraught politics and frankly it's fragile at peace and I suppose the question that arises for me for you is do we have the institutional capacity post-Brexit post-pandemic of course as well to restore Anglo-Ars relations and I'm just wondering what fault lines have been exposed particularly amid widely publicised or widely discussed concerns about the hollowing out of the NIO of the UK civil service and that institutional memory and understanding that um that Tony Blair and Birdie Hernd spoke about earlier about how a whole generation has moved on and perhaps doesn't know and understand us the way it needs to be understood yeah that's that's a big question Duffel I mean I'm really conscious that there's one thing that was exposed by Brexit it was in the funny way the sort of the lack of familiarity the UK has with itself um that sounds a really crass thing to say but it is extraordinary how little understanding and appreciation there is or there was of the Good Friday agreement but also the nature of devolution and there's sort of been and this too has been exposed in some way too by the COVID pandemic as well and I know there's considerable work going on in the UK government particularly cabinet office to try and manage intergovernmental relations better but of course Northern Ireland is very distinct in all of this but because of the institutions established by the Good Friday agreement and therefore the considerations that need to be borne in mind when looking to manage the situation for Northern Ireland but of course this is enormously complicated by the protocol and I think this even if you set aside the constitutional questions and issues and even if you set aside the trade issues uh fundamentally about the governance of Northern Ireland we have a new set of challenges um so in a very real way as I mentioned that UK-U relationship is critical now so the joint committee whatever Lord Frost and Mara Shevcovic do in the joint community that's that's hugely important and that was that committee officially has um ongoing responsibility with regards to Northern Ireland's position in the internal market of the UK but also in North-South cooperation and also in many other matters including baton excise for example so it's not it's a it's a weighty committee and it feels extremely remote um and I think um this brave question of um what the protocol means for Northern Ireland and how we move on ahead from here is definitely um exacerbated by the sense of distance between Northern Ireland and that joint committee and uh therefore the doubts about its legitimacy and this is why uh this is a good opportunity trying to think positively about it all to bring in those institutions those unique institutions that we have here uh North-South East-West as well as within NI um as well as the really active um civic organizations and business representative organizations that have done so such a sterling job recently um to bring draw up on that expertise and that their connection to what's actually happening here to try and best inform the decisions that have to be made at UK level hopefully with a mind to uh the sensitivity and the fragility of this place rather than just to their respective possibly competing interests yeah and I think that was something that uh the gentleman earlier kind of alluded to about how you can't just speak to your own audience and that need to spend political capital to speak to the other side it was interesting just uh the Christopher Salford um who is an ally of uh the NIDP leader and he told the BBC I think it was just yesterday there were three ways to get rid of the protocol one to pursue a Boris Johnson to scrap it the legal action obviously that's um in existence to uh to win it or winning a Unionist majority in next year's assembly elections just to stand with that um Katie the continuation obviously the core provisions of the protocol and requires the regular consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly to what extent do you think we will see um that Unionist majority under threat if people move to that middle ground do you think that there will be a further electoral shift to alliance and to other parties that could perhaps maybe upset that third option outlined by Christopher Salford yeah so there's a lot of misunderstanding about this but essentially uh at the end of 2024 in the first instance they get to vote on the articles 5 to 10 which are the in the mainstay underpin the Irish seaborder um and if there's not a majority in favour of maintaining that then the question goes back to the UK and the EU um what's been interesting possibly because of the nature of that consent vote and Unionist concerns recently is the emphasis upon the idea that uh the protocol threatens Northern Ireland's place in the Union and therefore it becomes a Unionist concern um exclusively and an attempt sorry not exclusively but um it becomes seen in that way as an effort to try and therefore gain electoral ground in the next assembly and this is this is quite uh it's it's quite a risky game apart from anything else um we don't know it's it's it's hard to say what people might do so we in this lucid talk poll we ask people about this and very much it's of the case that the vast majority of people think that the protocol will affect the way that they vote in the next assembly election and then we see them almost evenly split as to whether they want their MLA's to vote in favour or against articles 5 to 10 um but we don't know what's going to happen with that soft Unionist um remain voting cohort um and this is where the battle kind of lies will they and I think a lot depends on what Unionist parties do but will will those voters um be worried about the Union so they vote for for Co Union and therefore anti-protocol party um or will they not vote at all and I think what the success of the Alliance party in 2019 is very much in relation to remain but it's also um because people are voting whereas before they've been turned off um so what will happen will they be exercised enough in support of the protocol to vote Alliance say or exercise enough in fear about the protocol's implications for the Union to vote Unionist or will they not turn up and who knows what might happen on that front Claire so in the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement is just around the corner in historical terms just in about two years uh different panels will be amassed to look at big questions but one of the questions that I suppose has really come up since um the Brexit referendum and the UK's departure from the European Union is that do we now need to revisit the Good Friday Agreement in light of that in light of the fact that the one thing that was not contemplated in all that amazing scenario planning all those years ago was Britain's um departure from the EU so people routinely ask was it a product of its time um do we need to stick with it you heard earlier Bertie Hearn um in no uncertain terms then it would be an absolute lunacy to do away with it but he obviously being very open to amendments such as that the instant Andrews out of the Storm and House agreement considering that sometimes the Good Friday Agreement itself can be sort of um chocked around people say have different interpretations of what it means is it the right process still to go do you still have faith and confidence in it can its values hold? Yes I think so I think it's the principles of the Good Friday Agreement is what we take forward in that it recognises that there are two very distinct communities within Northern Ireland on the basis of the constitutional position of the island of Ireland and that's still the case you know people still have very strong views on that so I suppose if I have anything to compromise to facilitate both the Good Friday Agreement in my opinion is the best way forward in doing that that's not to say that the actions that came out of the Good Friday Agreement immediately in 1998 we're off their time but maybe we create a new set of actions in 2021 that recognises you know where we are and also mindful of the context of Brexit and the challenge that have come with that because no one anticipated that I was 11 years old when the Good Friday Agreement was signed and I suppose the biggest takeaway for me was that it did bring peace to Northern Ireland and I think that's the most critical thing and we can't take that for granted we can't come complacent about what that means in recent months because of issues like Brexit and the Northern Ireland protocol it has given rise to tension um and discontent within Northern Ireland and it is because of relationships whether those are per maybe they don't even exist it maybe is that Northern Ireland has been taken for granted my biggest concern is that in 1998 when all those people signed it there was an assumption across the word that Northern Ireland is now fixed let's move on but the process it's a process it's not an event and I think it's something that we all need to keep working at and it isn't just about each of us sticking to our own side it's about recognising that Northern Ireland needs to reconcile so I appreciate there's a bigger conversation in in reconciling the island but I think we need to give back to the focus around reconciling the people of Northern Ireland I'm not quite sure we got there in the last 23 years but that doesn't mean we can't do it in the next so you make them feel old I was 21 when the Good Friday Agreement was signed I want to go back to you Matt Carter UK our closest neighbour stands between us and the rest of Europe in many respects not at least through geography but also through our shared history and even if we move beyond the immediate issues of the protocol and accepting that Brexit is a firm reality and there's no doubt that relationships of all kinds will be tested through divergence and everything from finance to fisheries to to everything else we know that that's going to happen and indeed it's going to prove testing and challenging for how Ireland's own relationship with Europe evolves so how do we maximise and best secure Anglo-Arsh relations for the future given that Brexit just like the Good Friday Agreement is not an event it's a process you left a nice handy one for me there well thanks very much it's actually funny listening because a lot of the language you're using was exactly you'll recall the language we were doing well using when we were in in discussions usually at an informal level at a European Union level when I was a member of the parliament because you know I think it's important to say you know and to remember where the protocol came out of and it was as a result of a very intensive over a long period of time set of in discussions that took place with people from Michelle Barney right down to members of the European Parliament and it was precisely setting out just the complications that Brexit would create for Ireland and I've always acknowledged that even if Ireland wasn't partitioned if we had you know a 32 county republic Brexit would have created fundamental problems for us anyway because as you say it stands between us and the rest of Europe it is our largest trading partner I'm a spokesperson on agriculture and I have a constituency that is very much dependent on the beef sector you know in some of those sectors 90% of goods go into the British market so that's hugely important and then we have what is called our shared history it's a term I hate I have to say but it's the best one we have but for all of those reasons it is imperative that you know the out workings of Brexit work and I think that's why you know the DUP in particular have had difficulties in terms of mobilising opposition to the protocol because everybody's preference and this is Sinn Fein's preference as much as anybody else what we wanted out of Brexit if we had to deal with it at all was essentially the exact same trading relationship that we had prior to it and with Britain and because we are dependent on having access to both the European market as well as the British market so any divergence from that was always going to create difficulties but those difficulties are the same for a unionist farmer from County Antrim as they are for a republican farmer in County Arma and for a southern farmer in County Monaghan so all of those challenges are real and the same is the case for SMEs and for other businesses and for particularly those sectors that want to see growth over the common years so the problem and this has been repeated I suppose ad nauseam over the past number of weeks and months the problem isn't the protocol the problem is the Brexit the Brexit result and the approach that the British government took deciding to withdraw from the Singapore market. Can I ask an aligned question then to that because earlier in the conversation between Tony Blair and Bertie Hurley we heard words like patience trust goodwill we heard about you know the extraordinary efforts the need for friendship the need for trust and a lot of those issues are in short supply we heard about you know the back channels the intense diplomacy and the extraordinary amount of effort that it took to get the Good Friday agreement signed and underway and for looking into my proverbial crystal ball as a party that Sinn Féin as a party that will potentially be leading if not part of the next government in the Republic of Ireland and possibly taking up the role of First Minister in Northern Ireland to what extent is Sinn Féin working to extend and network its contacts in the UK with the Tories with other relative parties what are you doing to build that trust confidence goodwill everything that will be required to get to the next level and to ensure peace and stability regardless of the outcome of any future border polo. Well and that is work that we're involved in and we've had an office in London since the 1990s we have engaged with parliamentarians at that level and through with all parties there is a fundamental problem and we're as well calling a spade a spade here there's a difficulty in terms of the current Conservative government that are in power because they are not acting in a trustworthy manner and that's not just me saying that it was one of the I have to say the shocks that we received go back to my claim in the European Parliament that you would have a situation where British Prime Ministers never mind Ministers would arrive in Brussels agreed to something and before they even got home we're working at ways of unraveling that now that wasn't very much of a surprise to Irish Republicans or to anybody who's followed Irish history but it was as I say a shock to many people at an EU level so there is a breakdown and a breach in trust and we've seen this in relation to the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement and subsequent agreement in recent weeks with regard to legacy issues that will have to be rebuilt all I can say from machine fame perspective is we are engaged in a process of reconciliation and peace building as well as nation building we are willing and eager to engage particularly in the first instance with all opinion on the island of Ireland but as I said come back to my earlier point we recognise that that also extends to the island of Britain and to political voices there. Can I go to Julian Smith I think it should be only fair to come in and respond to that but also Julian what Tony Blair and Bertie Haram were speaking about earlier also was just the need to de-escalate and obviously the European Union is not without criticism in respect of some aspects of the handling of these issues and my question for you is how can the EU contribute to diffusing and calming the political and practical problems of the protocol but also acknowledging the unique relationship that the island is in you know it's intrinsic to the protocol but obviously it's not our call I think that's what we heard earlier it's not our call it's obviously an EU competency so what do you think needs to happen at that I suppose not even into government but at that international treaty level between the UK and the EU to diffuse some of these issues. Well I think first of all we're talking about the protocol as if it's all negative I see another potential scenario which is that significant improvements happen to the protocol in the coming months and significant inward investment comes into Northern Ireland over the coming months the Northern Ireland is in a unique position vis-a-vis any other part of the United Kingdom to maximize two major markets and I think that opportunity will be taken and I think there will be significant improvements to the protocol but the EU does have an important role it was the EU who when I was working with Theresa May December 2019 desperate for an exit mechanism a time limit some flexibility about the previous backstop refused to provide that flexibility and I do think it's really important to remember that point the EU obviously is going to protect its own interests but there is action it can take to assist I think obviously the UK needs to make sure it's doing everything it can in return to you know to encourage that in terms of Sinn Fein I think it is important that there is full engagement on all sides with all parties it's also interesting to note Sinn Fein is the only British political party who has members of the European Parliament so I think even if it's just in basic strategic interest I think you know full engagement with everybody is important that doesn't mean that you agree with everything but I think it does allow you to work through some of these issues. Can I go just to Claire Sugden I have a lot of questions coming in so expect I'm going to start coming into rapid fire mode saying but Claire a question that I have for you is that it's not just east west that Anglo-Irish relations are dependent on the quality of north-south relations as well and I just wondering for you and from your perspective what does that mean in particular for this for unionism in what is no doubt a pivotal movement for the broader PUL community how important are those relations because we've even seen the reluctance with the British Art Intergovernmental Conference obviously it's going to meet next doing but there have I think to be fair been some difficulties. Yeah there have but those relationships are critical and are fostered within the Good Friday Agreement and I think that all sides should look to try and strengthen those relationships not least because of the practical outcomes that you know could happen if we can strengthen those relationships you know for example Matt is the representative for agriculture and there's lots of really interesting work that's happening in relation to climate change Northern Ireland has table that's climate change legislation in Northern Ireland and there is a concern for local farmers that there could be an impact on them so there is cross-border working that you know that can really benefit us all and it is provided for in the Good Friday Agreement I think it is fair to say certainly from the PUL community if you like relationships certainly from North-South have been strained in recent years and certainly previous Taoiseach and other leaders in the South maybe had better relationships with previous leaders in Northern Ireland as well so you know I took the point of Bertie Hearn and to leave her that we need to get back to a place where we do strengthen because we're all stakeholders here whether it's North, South, East and West and you know we are some of our parts and if we all work together I believe we all benefit this isn't just about Northern Ireland it's Scotland it's Wales it's England and it's the Republic of Ireland we are interdependent on one another Matt said it himself the biggest trading partner you know happens East-West it doesn't happen outside of that so you know I think to an extent we need to set egos aside and I appreciate that each jurisdiction will have their own interest and will fight to their own interests but you know I think it's it's it's good to recognize what their own opportunities are as well as the threats because the Northern Ireland protocol has issues quite considerable issues and you know where we are now is that on January 1st I was quite prepared to see if we could work through those issues but we haven't we delayed them we haven't actually dealt with them and perhaps in the coming months as Gillian has suggested that we will and there will be big investment in Northern Ireland and maybe in four years for now even that vote is presented to the Northern Ireland Assembly Unionists might want to stay in that arrangement because it's actually put us on a better position but who knows we do have to work through the issues first because it's not only causing us trade issues but it is giving rise to people's identity issues and in Northern Ireland that's not something that that we can forget about we have to be always conscious of that because again it's about reconciling people as much as it is about what we did there we did hear a lot in the earlier discussion about the risk of completing issues of identity with ordinary issues that people need to work through lots of questions coming in Katie Hebron I'm going to go with one of the first ones to you and it's from John Hannah and I think it John's question relates to you know irrespective of the constitutional question and the conditions of peace still need to be there whether it's stability of placing the judiciary civicness and those need to be in place regardless of what happens next but John Hannah has a question what advice would you have for new campaign groups in Northern Ireland such as the pro unity group Ireland's future and pro union group uniting UK again an easy question thank you John Hannah but in terms of how we move forward and how we move through this given all of these different nuances and the risks of conflation I would advise them to read the report of the working group on referendums on Irish unification that's due to be published the final report to be published next week I think from the constitution unit in UCL and if that's trying a bit of a get out clause I'm putting me on it because I was part of this working group led by Alan Renwick and containing former officials and academics and it was really hard work I have to say and it's a it's a big report contains a lot of reflection not just on expertise within the group but also a public consultation and over 1400 responses to that and we're very grateful to everybody who responded and then responded to our interim report and it's it's quite an in-depth report makes very clear recommendations but one thing that is notable I think was just how much it was the case that people regardless of their views about Irish unity were just this common concern that a process if handled badly could end up in violent conflict and that's a as concern that people had across whether they be young or old unison nationalist or or other so in all of these things tread carefully and sensitively it's not to say you can't have these discussions by any means it's important that they that they take place but just bear in mind sensitivities. Okay next question is from your former MEP colleague Pranchester Ross it's for Matt Carty and Matt says identities won't change you in a united Ireland but what about allegiances over to you Matt? Well I think the lessons we've learned over the past 100 years is that a state has to learn or has to earn allegiance and the best way of doing that is through that catch cry of equality and that will be the onus on all of us as we approach and then pass and move beyond the referendum is to ensure that all citizens are treated equally and that everybody receives the benefits that I believe unity can bring about. Okay thank you Matt I have a question for you Julian and perhaps Claire you might come in on it as well as we know the T-Shack Mayhill Martin has established a Sherrod Island unit within his own department with quite significant funds to go towards infrastructure projects and other things to try and move that agenda forward. Julian how has the Sherrod Island unit been received in the UK is there a fear that it's a stalking horse for unity that this is kind of you know being used to that or is there an acknowledgement again at sort of that higher kind of intergovernment level that this is a good thing the Sherrod Island unit? Well I don't think there's been a big focus on it in in the UK and I think obviously there's been I think some miscommunication at the start with the Northern Ireland Executive but I think quite a lot of businesses quite a lot of organisations see this as a funding opportunity as an opportunity to help support all island projects and that could be climate change, it could be health, it could be infrastructure. My concern at a little bit level with this discussion is we're coming out of the biggest economic and health crisis since World War II. The constitutional debate is not something that I underestimate but the full priority of every politician, every leader, every civil servant has to be on getting people back into jobs and getting your income in levelling up all parts of the United Kingdom and Ireland and making sure people with their incomes have better opportunities and I think that is going to come by focusing on day-to-day governance, the economy, on winning business inward investment, growing small companies, getting more women involved in leadership positions, business organisations, getting greater diversity, giving people from poorer areas, better opportunities, training etc and those have to be the areas of the focus at the moment. It doesn't mean you can't have a constitutional view but Northern Ireland has a major opportunity, Ireland's got a major opportunity, both the UK and Ireland I think can work together in the best interests of people and that has to be the priority at the moment. We've gone through the most awful year and a half and we need to focus on improving that as the first priority. Thank you Julian and the question actually came from Emily Benchley. Emily thank you for it and there's a question aligned there for Claire just to stay with that shared island unit and Emily asked should there have been a shared, because we know how much language matters on this island, should it have been a shared islands plural not island singular and what is your thought on that? Yes just as you were asking the question to Gillian I was thinking the Irish government would have been better at calling it a shared islands unit because it isn't just about the island of Ireland, it's about the island of Britain as well and certainly if we're looking towards trying to satisfy unionists if you like as well as nationalists and everyone else in between and everybody else you know who doesn't have an opinion then I think we need to look at it in the wider context of the British Isles and not just on this island and I entirely agree with Gillian the focus should be not so much about the constitutional position but again I respect that people will pursue that and that's absolutely fine but the focus at this point coming out of the pandemic coming out of Brexit should be about how we re-stabilise UK and Ireland because it will impact all of us so yeah I agree it should have been shared islands and maybe if Tisha is listening he might take an opportunity to revise that and speak with his counterparts in London because they have a part to play too it's about all of us and I think that's a positive way forward. Yeah maybe he might if he's listening in just put an extra A S on the end it won't ruin all of the branding for it. Before I go on I have a lot of questions about Europe and I wanted to look at that but can I go back to a really interesting question from Jean Lynch on education in Northern Ireland it's one of my bug bears and the the 11 plus system and earlier today you may have been aware there was a report out where many prisoners a small group of prisoners from you know both communities who had both expressed their concern at how marginalised particularly for working class communities the 11 plus kind of that streamlined segregation system was and something I feel very strongly by but Jean Lynch has a question on education and perhaps Matt and Katie you might look at it she says integrated education would seem to be fundamental to improving community relations for a functioning society it's essential that we know our neighbours and since 1998 we've made some progress in multi education education Northern Ireland but it has been so slow and Matt I know you didn't grow up in the same system in Northern Ireland that we did with the education and probably didn't have to experience the horror of the 11 plus but it's a really really important point in terms of education and other services that there's still the extent of segregation that we have yeah the 11 plus is an abomination it's just a cruel system and it's one of the things that Schimpfen is most proud of in terms of our role in the executive and has been in the efforts of Mark McGinnis and successors in terms of getting rid of that system I you know and I know there's lots of people in Dublin and elsewhere who would point the finger at you know the education system in the north in terms of the dominance of religious orders in terms of the running them I would say have a look at our own education system first I come from an Ulster County as well where there would be a sizable proportion from a Protestant community and many would go to schools that are defined on a religious basis but we don't and I think this has been the result of a lot of decades of work have the same levels of sectarianism of course sectarianism is there so therefore I think sometimes it's an easy copy to blame education for the sectarianism within society in many ways education just reflects the problems as opposed to be the cause of it so it's a big issue it's a it's a it's a big matter and I know particularly in communities where there might be you know a minority of one particular community or another that education is seen as being very important and I think if we were to move in that area first and say we're going to dismantle the religious ethos of schools before we've actually really tackled the root causes of sectarianism in our in the wider community then I think we could actually be re-emphasizing the problems as opposed to resolving them so it's a huge issue I think everybody that looks at this recognizes that education has to play a part but the question is where on the where on the order of of things to do those education fall and it is a huge area that needs to be addressed it is and obviously it's always the economy Julian Smith I have a question from my colleague Brian Hutton from The Irish Times he says Julian would you hazard a guess at the economic value to Northern Ireland of a successfully operating Northern Ireland protocol in terms of both inward and investment and access to both markets and how would you see that working so can you can you hazard a guess on the value of it he also asks within what time frame do you think tangible results would be seen if a successful protocol for Northern Ireland could be agreed well I I think it's difficult to quantify but the sorts of things I would be looking to see are you know over the coming months regular inward investment regular announcements about jobs growth you know US companies UK companies EU companies setting up in Northern Ireland I think I don't I don't have all the detail but I think InvestNI has seen a big uptick in inquiries we've seen announcements from Catalyst the technology public private entity last week of new investment coming in I think it was about 100 jobs coming from a London based software company and I think there's a good chance we'll see that going forward what I'd like to see is MLAs and others asking the questions of you know InvestNI and others have you know how have we got all of the people involved in inward investment and support for business coming in and speaking to politicians coming in and checking they've got the support coming in and making sure that you know they are fully tooled up to take advantage and I think my overall point is there is no other part of the UK that can access both from a good point of view both the UK market and the EU market and logic would would would say given Northern Ireland has got such great skills such great sort of housing and educational opportunities that businesses will take advantage of that. Can I ask you Claire there's a question from Michael Coyle and it is in respect Julian Oxy earlier mentioned that Sinn Fein is the only Northern Ireland presence in the European Parliament post Brexit and Michael has a question Claire what impact do you think the limited a limited understanding of an EU a 27 member state EU and its institutions will have on Northern Ireland to suppose maybe that that lack of representation now that that Northern Ireland has and considering obviously the majority but wanted to stay in the European Union. I suppose that doesn't stop us reaching out and having those connections particularly when we are trying to encourage new data between the UK and Europe now that we're out of that market so you know in fairness it hasn't stopped Sinn Fein doing that lobbying in the UK where they don't take their seats and don't provide that representation so I think you know there are ways of doing that and I think it is about getting back to cool heads and recognising the practical actions that we need to move forward with so I don't think it's insurmountable but it does it does it is a two-way street as well I think is an important point to make. So staying thank you Claire staying with trust a local Callahan White has a question for you Katie and noting the low levels of that you had noted the low levels of public trust in the Northern Ireland Assembly how do you propose or how could the increase levels of trust and what role is there for young people a majority of whom as I've just said in Northern Ireland who voted to stay in the EU and I suppose that is it speaks to your earlier point Katie in terms of public confidence and trust in our own institutions. Another easy question. Well I'm just going to state the obvious and it goes back to what Julian used before it's about honesty and truth and information and I think a big part of the problem in relation to trust is this sense of not being told the truth about really important issues and matters and especially that's the case when people are called upon to act or to protest or to or to vote in certain ways and I think there's a real dearth of like factual information at the moment you'd probably expect me to say that as an academic but I think we're really seeing the problems and consequences of that across the UK at the moment and indeed you know if we look more broadly at the nature of politics and political debate and electoral campaigning etc this is a really big issue for us more broadly in Ireland we need to be aware of quite how vulnerable our electoral systems are to distortion and this is something actually we pick up on in this in the referendum's report that there's a big need for reform to catch up with how information can be distorted and how people can get very wrong post impressions that can be so damaging to the things that are absolutely essential to democracy and that these things can be very very severe negative effects quite directly and we've seen lots of examples of that in Ireland as I say as well as in the UK recently. Can I ask you Matt as a former MEP of a question from Adrian Palm who's the ambassador of the Netherlands to Ireland and his question is what role can other EU member states play to contribute to the situation on the ground in Northern Ireland to increase mutual trust between Northern Ireland and Brussels I suppose it's maybe an inverse of the question that that we directed towards Julian and Claire. Well first of all welcome to the ambassador and I suppose it is important to put on the record again that and I'm someone as you know Derbil who is can be incredibly critical of the European Union and especially of some of the manners in which the institutions and fulfil its role and I think most of us have been critical of them over the past few days in terms of the response to what's happening in Gaza and elsewhere but leaving all that aside I do think it's important to put on the record that throughout the Brexit process the institutions and despite what was believed within the land of the Brexit years held firm in support of the Irish position and in support of having a special set of circumstances that recognised the unique difficulties that Brexit presented to the island of Ireland and so there's a lot of and the European Union has committed to things like the peace program which is crucial funding for border communities and I suppose there's there's a bit of work that we need to continue to do to ensure that the north remains part of some of those other crucial EU funding programmes these are funding programmes that despite what anybody might believe in Stormont or anywhere else the British government simply won't fulfil the the funding streams that were there that are crucially important and then I suppose the other key part of the EU's positive contribution over the past number of years was when the council and the council stated categorically again that in the event of reunification that the entire island of Ireland would remain part of the European Union and that clearly set out the framework it might give us if you like a clarity that the Scots would absolutely love that assurance that in the event of a referendum on unity being carried successfully then that membership of the European Union won't be in doubt and so that's crucially important but that the diplomatic support will undoubtedly be needed again in the event of further tensions and particularly if the British government attempt to diverge unilaterally from the protocol. Can I ask thank you Matt for that comprehensive response Claire before I go to all of our panelists with a final question of my own I have a question from Jo McNeill it's a great question he said Claire can economic benefits of the protocol be separated from the constitutional position or is it too late? I think we can yes I don't think the Northern Ireland protocol and Brexit even in itself means that a united Ireland is inevitable you know only the people of Northern Ireland will decide its constitutional future and that will depend on a number of different things but I do think it is important to state the issue with the Northern Ireland protocol it is ultimately a trade issue but it is giving rise to other concerns and that is identified particularly from a lawless working class community and I think that's in the context of people saying that united Ireland is inevitable and then you have the situation where although we're part of long jurisdiction we have other barriers and challenges in place that Scotland and Wales don't you know so I think it's about trying to inform and I think Cary is absolutely right there's an awful lot of misinformation that's that's going around at the minute and I think politicians need to provide leaderships to inform people on the ground but I don't think we can diminish the concerns and the other issues that the protocol has given rise to but I don't I don't necessarily mean that that I think that that means the end of the union if anything it could be an opportunity to strengthen it but we will wait and see if those issues can be dealt with first and then we can perhaps take the positives out of the opportunities that Julian described earlier and Julian says John Cushan and former leader of the Alliance party and a former finnegale MEP has come up with the prospect of a western arc he says what happens in Scotland will obviously have a huge impact on Ireland and the UK do you think there's maritime initiating discussion and structures not only exclusively between north and south but also between the Northern Ireland Assembly the Dall and the Scottish Assembly and the possibility of all three forming what he describes as a western arc of the EU if Scotland were to become independent would you be in support of a western arc Julian? Well I think the north side bodies the BIC the BIDC all need to be empowered and you know I think there are structures there that we need to use we need to use the committees that Katie talked about between the UK and the EU how are we actually going to deal with the biggest challenge that we're facing climate change by you know putting up barriers we're going to have to reduce those barriers and get the EU, Ireland, UK working really closely together. I think just on Claire's point on unionism some of the most fulfilling engagement I did when I was Secretary of State was with the unionist community and you know all I would want to emphasise again is Katie's point that actually the more clear and honest you can be the more we can be clear that we're all going to try and improve the protocol and you know working but that it does not threaten the constitution position of Northern Ireland the better but that honesty around the practice is not going to disappear but we can improve it has to be the key starting block and then we fold in the opportunities that that will bring. My final question to you all and we'll have to keep it brief because I'm determined to get us out in time but as one I think it was Claire perhaps Katie said earlier Northern Ireland for all its challenges is not a failed state there have been huge advances and changes immeasurably since the Good Friday Agreement and the cessation of Ireland set up brought a bite can I ask you all finally just in case whatever format they'll be meeting in 30 years time at the IIA 60th birthday and if this conversation was captured in a in a maybe in a time capsule in future generations we're reflecting back what are your greatest hopes for the island of Ireland and its closest neighbour and and I'll start with you kitty Howard. I'm not even able to think like to next week at this rate with the protocol stub let alone 30 years and I think my greatest hope would be that with well it's going to sound ridiculously cosmopolitan but we'll be on the the national identities question and not necessarily European but as Julian says different types of identities would be much more important and much more significant drivers of political and decision making and policy making and in many ways that would reflect possibly some of the concerns of the generation that is up and coming behind us and it would be it'll be such a different island you know regardless of the constitutional status it will be transformed and and and Britain will as well in terms of immigration and various types of identities etc so it's hopefully it'll be exciting to and hopes and future and predictions of vanguard relations beyond Brexit Matt Carty. Well if we're talking about 30 years time the one thing I'm absolutely confident of there will is that we will be in a united island and I'm not saying that because Enniton is ever inevitable I just think that the strength of arguments are going to intensify and the demand of progressive forward-looking people will be that we move in that direction my hope is that it will be the success that I believe it can be that it delivers for every community I hope that when we're meeting in 30 years time we don't have to have a conversation about integrated education because it will be just it will be an alien concept to people that we'd be talking about a health service that is actually delivering north south into east and west and on the basis of need rather than the wealth of any individual that we have public services that deliver that we have economic development agencies that are working together rather than back to back and and that the big question when people are discussing these issues will be what took them so long Claire so thank you Matt Claire soaked in the theories that that it might be as quite as united perhaps as others that that there is still a gap between aspiration and reality but looking beyond that what are your hopes for for the future I think from 1998 until now it has been a period of transition I would hope the next 30 years maybe the next 100 years of Northern Ireland will be about a period of transformation in that the government is providing opportunities and aspirations and services so that governments Northern Ireland Republic of Ireland within the UK the devolved nations are actually serving their people so that people can move up and help you now Julian Smith I think one of the most distinctive things about you is your continued interest in Northern Ireland and indeed in the Anglo-Arch relations despite the short tenure and I think that many people had wished it had been for a much longer period but but somebody who has got a deep and intense interest in these islands and what do you see is the the future and perhaps maybe not a specific outcome but what are your hopes and aspirations for the future and for the next 20 to 30 years. Well look I really hope that the trust between Ireland and the UK does improve I'm confident it will obviously the Prime Minister had a good meeting with the T-shirt checkers last week and you know there are some really I think positive signs and I think things like climate change and big issues that we've got to deal with will bring us together and bring the EU together and get us working closer together. Ireland's so successful internationally the UK is obviously I think post-Brexit got lots of opportunities and I think I think things will turn out well. I think for Northern Ireland I can't really predict 30 years hence but I think I would strongly argue that the hybrid that is in place post-GFA will remain for much longer than people think that I don't you know predict exactly the constitutional arrangement around it but I think more or less where we are now will prevail longer and that's why I would make an argument that within the constitutional debate we don't try to improve the life chances of everybody in Northern Ireland because I think that has to be the biggest focus the moment. Young people in Northern Ireland that I met with the Secretary of State were so passionate so forward thinking it's those people that are actually the future and I think we must all work to support. Absolutely well listen all that remains for me is to say apologies to all of the questions that I didn't get to there was such an intense engagement from the audience that we didn't get to all questions but hopefully we got to as many as we could and just to thank Claire, Matt, Katie and Julian on your behalf and indeed on my behalf because it was just a simple joy to facilitate this conversation that is it for today congratulations to the IIEA on your 30th birthday and wishing you many more to come thank you for joining the conversation keep an eye out because there's some brilliant conversations to come later on this week and my thanks to all of the panel and to you wherever you're watching thank you very very much.