 because nobody wants to be abroad and struggling nobody wants to be abroad and like not doing the things that they want to be doing doesn't make any sense and I feel that by building a business you can build an asset to support yourself an asset that you can sell at some point or an asset that you can grow and grow and grow. Welcome to the You Are a Lawyer podcast Christine. Thank you so much for having me I'm really excited to chat with you today. Me too so you will not have spoken before and we talked about just would you be a guest how excited I was to share your story with the audience but we actually were just chatting about Europe and it is December when we're recording this we're talking about the lack of insulation in Spain because that's actually where you live. I'm based here in Valencia Spain I've lived in Spain for the past five years it is a wonderful country you know every country has its ups and downs and things like that one of the downs is that they don't believe in central air and heating and so I love it but it's like come on I'm just a little bit cold yeah so when I think of Spain I think of the sun and tropical and amazing right does it actually get cold like do you have a true change of seasons there does it does and what's so fascinating is that I think most people and I definitely did before I visited Spain think of southern Spain when they think of Spain I think of flamenco they think of Sevilla and Andalucía but Spain is graphically diverse it has so many different like mountain ranges that are like snow capped most of the year there's the Spanish Pyrenees you have Galicia that's kind of like Ireland it's like weird you're like what is this place it's like rainy and green all the time I lived in La Rioja which is like a nice valley for all the beautiful wines that they create there I lived in Catalonia which is right between the Mediterranean Sea and some mountains as well and now in Valencia and so yeah I would say that I'm from Atlanta and I lived in Miami and it's not as warm and it's not as warm or as mild or temperate in the winter as Atlanta or Miami but it's not it's not crazy I'm a little bit of it like I'm a little bit thin-skinned when it comes to that so I wine a lot but I don't really get that cold I'm not going to you know the mountains I'm not going to Cantabria Asturias in the winter time so it's actually quite lovely okay so we are recording this for YouTube and if I cannot pinpoint every city that you just mentioned I will definitely show the country of Spain and where Valencia is so that we all can recognize that you're not in the south of Spain you are in a different type of region in Valencia so Christine we're mentioning this very casually but you live in Spain like I'm still like oh my god amazing amazing how did you get there and why did you decide to move there permanently oh my goodness I always wanted to live in Spain since I was 17 years old I University of Georgia for undergrad and I knew more than like my major or anything else that I was gonna do there that's gonna study abroad and so I was like that's all I'm going to do I ended up being like talk to and got some good sense and get advised by like my academic advisor who was like girl you're not a biology major you cannot go to Costa Rica and I was like okay so I first or actually the second time I went to Spain was to study abroad here in Valencia actually 15 years ago which is like like really but yeah it's like 15 or maybe even 16 years ago now and I loved it I had a very interesting experience as a as a black woman I was the only black person person of color in my cohort but I really I enjoyed how I felt being outside the US and I was just always really curious I graduated from university and I tried to figure out how to move abroad you know it wasn't a great time to graduate from university it was like 2009 so it wasn't like a great time it was a time where you know I had done everything that I was asked of me right I you know everything in high school everything in college and I graduated from college and I don't I didn't get a job I couldn't get a job there wasn't jobs to be had so I found myself interning and being the world's worst waitress only last like two months they're just like please like you're right and then working sales and the gene wall for the gap after undergrad and just being really upset right and not really understanding that kind of was instrumental though because it taught me so much about myself and actually what I do now as a business strategist I learned a lot and working the gap gene wall after undergrad I learned how to meditate actually in the resting rooms because we had to fold up all those genes after people just demolish them but yeah I kind of knew that I still wanted to go abroad and I was doing these jobs I was asking my mom for any help she would plot her rolodex I was going through a rolodex in 2009 yes calling people being like hey you don't know me I'm Adrian's daughter do you guys got you know do you work abroad who's that like how'd you get this job people just being like what you don't leave in voicemails yeah I love the initiative though I just I was trying to make it happen and I couldn't figure it out so I ended up deciding with a lot of encouragement from my mother to attend law school and so I was only a year out I had gone undergrad then took that year off and worked and try to figure out my life and then decided to go to University of Miami for law school and that was a whole thing I went to law school I knew I wanted to live abroad throughout that experience after graduating I had the opportunity to join a startup in downtown Miami I went on business trading mission to maybe in South Africa that kind of encouraged that wanderlust that kind of like I know I can do this and I did that for a while I went back to Atlanta did my own business got burnt out and was like look I've been wanting to move abroad I don't know how I'm gonna do it but we gotta figure it out like I gotta I gotta go and so I took a leap of faith and I took a sabbatical so I moved to Spain five and a half years ago initially just to teach English for nine months and then I never left wow was there the option to go to Spain or do you think if you would have went in law school you just never would have came back you would have just stayed well the thing is like I didn't go to the maybe or South Africa in law school I had joined a startup immediately after graduating okay so while everyone else was in the law library studying for the bar I was in the maybe in South Africa okay and the interesting thing is is that my academic advisor in law school she had told me I think maybe it was the end of my one year two year she was like Christine I see you're getting really involved in student government she was like don't do it she said you want to look you want to move abroad go to France and study comparative law go do whatever go go do that and I didn't listen to her because I was like yeah I could do both but you can't I ended up becoming the president of my law school class and not studying abroad in law school and in hindsight I should study abroad I shouldn't have been I shouldn't have tried to go for a president of law school because you know what does that mean but also I love that your desire to study abroad and to live abroad kept coming back up right it wasn't just like a one-off thought and you're like oh that would be fun I mean you kind of forget about it I like that it kept revisiting you like remember there's more out here come on so that's pretty cool yeah I think honestly now that you say it like that I feel like it was kind of like a beacon it was something that I was very sure of and during that time you know graduating from undergrad and being like I ain't got a job what am I supposed to do now that was the thing I was sure of in law school wanting to be first an entertainment attorney then being like no that's not for me you know working for federal magistrate working for zumba fitness general council being like no no that's not for me either the only thing that was really sure about was going my own way that's the only thing I was sure about and it was weird because half of me was really confident and half of me was like girl that's not what everyone else is doing like we got to do what everyone else is doing and it took me a long time to kind of get that kind of confidence trust kind of that voice but we got there eventually and we did so I have to ask this question because when you were studying abroad or living abroad that was when everybody else was studying for the bar exam what was that experience like when you were like I'm not taking it right you're just like no I'm not I'm not doing it because that can be a really hard decision for people when law school you go through the three years and it's pushing you to this test and you're like no I'm not doing it what was that like oh that was it was easy for me and everyone else hated it everyone hated it so my three year I was president of my law school class so it has a lot of perks like I could have gotten like some discounts for like barbary and all other stuff and everybody was like yeah just promote it I was like I'm not taking the bar and people were like what the president of the law school class can't not take the bar but people tried to persuade me and I was in a very interesting headspace at the time before even left to move to Miami to go to law school my mom had been diagnosed with breast cancer and my little sister was 16 at the time and she was still in the house and so I almost didn't even go to law school and I had that whole process because it is a process a lot of chemo radiation port being put in my mom had several surgeries while I was in Miami so I had a lot of that on me I think also I was just really fed up with the politics of law school also I had good intentions in trying to becoming the president of the law school and I found myself rewarded at every at every instance you know I got pushed back from the student senate when I said I wanted to cut the beer budget so we could reinvest in you know some professional development and then I got pushed back from the admin for some of the ideas that I had which was largely about really emphasizing non-traditional pathways for J.D.'s because at that point I had recognized that was going to be my pathway and also the legal market was contracting and it was already kind of like an initiative at my law school that we need to place obviously more students and things like that when they graduated which obviously every law school wants to do but I wanted to do something different and I was getting so much push back from everyone and had so much going on that by the time I was in my three year I was a woman that was just fed up and I didn't care what anybody had to say about anything at all I was quite upset by the time I actually graduated and walked across the stage which I did not want to do I had called my mom and said mom don't come to Miami I'm not going to walk she was like this is not about you I'm coming to Miami you will walk also I was the first one to be what is it even called to be bestowed there to yes I was the first one so she was like uh-uh get on that stage cross that stage so making that decision to to not take the bar was less actually about I don't know necessarily not wanting to practice I think it was just me asserting myself and what I wanted to do I didn't believe I wanted to practice traditionally and I wanted to go my own way and I had gotten a job that was in a startup and I was like okay I got a job y'all said I couldn't get I literally got a job I got a job before a lot of people did so what are you talking about and uh yeah and so when I got that job and they were like okay we're at a startup we're in a warehouse in downtown Miami now the startup scene in Miami is very sleek and nice 10 years ago we were in a warehouse okay and 10 years ago downtown Miami was not popping okay um yeah I was there in a warehouse and then the director was like do you got a passport and I was like yeah she's like all right well give it to me and I was like why she's like oh we're going to Namibia in South Africa on trade mission and so for me that was a confirmation I'm you know it's about three weeks after graduation and I'm in Africa I'm talking to the then US ambassador to Namibia who's a black woman at the time and she's the one that is hosting us in Namibia like for me that was confirmation I was like oh bar absolutely not so what I love about your story and what I keep hearing is that even though you did go to law school at the prodding of someone else right your mom encouraged you you still were fighting to do it your own way the whole time no we're going to cut the budget for this no I don't want to do that look we need more professional development right and I think that's really important because right now you actually work as a consultant where you promote women of color on how to start their own businesses how to run thriving businesses did you start that since moving to Spain or was that something that you carried over with you when you moved abroad I actually started consulting while I was in law school okay so I had died I did 1L summer traditionally you know federal magistrate actually I mean I asked the federal magistrate judge if I could cut my summer in half so I could work for Zumba for half the summer that's not done you don't do that I was like look my parents are lawyers so I got to test out everything I think I want to do before I commit to something okay I don't have a job like waiting for me so after that though I was like I don't think I want to be a traditional lawyer and the thought of leaving law school didn't enter my mind because I was like can't do that yeah and so I was looking for just something else and so I was a really big nerd still am I used to read the university wide email newsletters that nobody reads like they sent it out and uh like nobody reads us they're like what's happening on campus but I do so I'm like oh what is happening on campus and there's this spotlight on the director the entrepreneurship incubator at the university of Miami and I just read her story and I was just like she is amazing she had been an entrepreneur since she was 16 she done all these things and I was just like she might know she might know something that I need to know and so I would go down to the incubator which is called the launch pad and I would just wait for her and I'd be like hey is Dr. Amat coming in and they just be like who are you do you have an appointment and I was like no I just I'm a fan I know I don't want to be on the law school campus so eventually people were like who are you what do you want and then they were like do you want to be the legal fellow and I was like oh yeah yeah yeah I want to do that and so that for me really changed a lot because I have a business degree from the University of Georgia I have this legal experience and then pairing it together in this incubator I was just like they were just like just go and and advise I wasn't really like trained and it just was an amazing natural fit because I got to hold space for these young entrepreneurs 1819 who had never you know really stood out on their own maybe apart from their parents to people who have like family businesses and I really got to think critically and to devise better plans for them strategically and technically right with business foundation and and things like that but also like emotionally because entrepreneurship is very emotional less ecology which I didn't recognize until I was in it and I was like we're not really talking about the business model right I'm really talking about you and your family and your relationship so for me that changed it all that's how I ended up with the job in the startup after graduation because it was a accelerator in downtown Miami after that I went back to Atlanta I started my own consultancy just doing some business strategy a lot of ideation product development for people in the wellness sector and then when I moved to Spain I had put that on hiatus and then I revived it okay because I kind of did everything and I wanted to do I was on sabbatical I was a freelance writer I was a digital nomad and I worked for a business that was based in DC and then I was like that's not for me either it's not being in like Southeast Asia and having meetings at 4 a.m yeah it's not for me like that so yeah to me I think it's a natural pairing that you will become a consultant because your story is not what do I say your story is atypical how about that people do not read school newsletters people don't read regular newsletters they enroll in right people do not say I'm going to show up at the office people do not say I'm going to still run for president of the 3.0 class you know what I mean people don't do those things so I think it's really beneficial that you take all of your experience even though you may be like oh this is just what I'm what I've always done you're teaching these other women and other people of color how to say no go for what you actually want push for it push for it look I've done it repeatedly definitely I'm a big believer in having people tell you no and just into stop like I'm a big believer in being like like in the States I would I would like write someone an email I'll follow up yeah I'll give my car and just roll up on people too I'd be like hey what's up I'm Christine what's what's good did you get my email are you gonna tell me yes or no okay um I don't know where I got that from to be honest because I am a true blue introvert like okay I am an introvert but I'm also someone that has no problem with uncomfortable situations or like conflicts you know I don't think a lot of things are conflict I think a lot of people are just anxious about the supposed conflict that may arise than the conflict itself so I find myself just going after the things that I want not in a crush it kill it kind of way I'm just like tell me no so I can move on I can check it off my list right and I can move on yeah because until you tell me no then either you're still thinking about it or you want to be convinced and I can hope with that part but if you tell me no okay yeah and I think also the great thing about going after what you want even if you even if the vision is not super clear you recognize that you really are crafting your life and your business you're not waiting for someone to give you anything you're not waiting for someone to choose you or pick you or think you're really neat you're saying I'm here and I'm ready and I'm the one absolutely give it to me put me in coach put me in I'm ready here I am and if you don't believe me I promise you I'll keep showing up so you give me the chance so Christine I think this is a great time to segue into your podcast flourish in the foreign so this podcast is fantastic you talk to women who are traveling abroad who are doing things differently who are just expanding their boundaries right why did you decide to become a podcaster and how do you enjoy doing podcasts I decided to become a podcaster I think the the seeds were planted since I was a child I was an NPR kid you know in the back and then in the car seat kicking my legs wasn't the NPR of a mom like that was just what it was I loved NPR I loved podcast like before I guess they were podcasts and I wanted to create flourish in the foreign I actually didn't know who was going to be a podcast I kind of got some encouragement from a friend of mine but I found that I traveled a lot I've traveled extensively in my life and I have these amazing stories I don't necessarily feel like I'm the best storyteller like retelling the story because I'm the type person to be like and then this happened and then no wait that happened two days before but this was a good part if you're girl what are you saying yeah so I was encountering these fantastic women black women abroad who would just impart so much wisdom their their aura would just be amazing I've just like this is incredible you know on trips or whatever I've just meet these women and I just kept on feeling like other people should hear these stories not for me though because I'm not the best storyteller like I need to capture this so other people could hear these stories and then when I was thinking about that I thought wow you know had I met this woman you know five years earlier seven years earlier my whole life would be different because I think part of the reason why I couldn't figure out how to go abroad before I even went to law school was that I just didn't have any examples of really clear cut like women going black women going abroad in many different ways in different countries because I felt like I was open I was like I'll go anywhere I'll do anything and they're like calm down no you won't but like I needed to hear these women I need to I need that encouragement the representation and so I wanted to create something that showcased black women telling their own stories using their own words or own voices because I didn't want to be misconstrued I didn't want to be bastardized because something that all of us in the African diaspora can share and resonate with is that our stories have been bastardized since forever because you know history is told by the perspective of the victor and I wanted that these black women's stories who are living abroad their stories to be the definitive answer if you want to know particularly because actually right around when I launched my podcast was 2020 May 2020 and there was a surge of black Americans interested in moving abroad and then there was a lot of articles talking about it and the articles always centered the white gays in racism and I was like black people have been living abroad since the beginning of time and for many different reasons because you know anti-blackness is global in some aspects it can be part of the equation for people but to think that people are discurring out of the United States because of this or that is is so not true and that's what happens when you're not in control of your narrative so it's important for me to create this podcast not only for black women to see themselves represented but for them to tell their own stories because what I've also found is that my guests will listen to their episode and be like oh my god is that me I'm like yes girl you're that awesome and they're also it also gives them a chance to reflect because they're like I just been living my life like I hadn't really taken stock of what I've accomplished and how I feel about it and I feel like it's been really impactful for them and then also really examining living abroad as a pathway to wellness because living abroad is it like you know baguettes and crypts and you know Latin lovers I don't know what people think living abroad is like it is very much like you know taking out your own trash in a different country you know what I'm saying it's very you know various degrees of adulting but I wanted to examine what living abroad could really how could impact wellness wellness not meaning crystals and bath bombs but true embodiment for black women so financial wellness professional wellness mental and emotional physical wellness and I think uh I think we've we've had some really great success with it I'm really proud of what the podcast has done yeah absolutely and one of the things I love about the podcast is the honesty in the stories but your stories and the stories that you share on the florish and the foreign podcast are really honest right these women get very vulnerable and they tell you the good bad and ugly about any country that they live in and I could imagine that they would re-listen to it and they're like oh I didn't even think it was that groundbreaking because I was just because the story is kind of they remind me of your story where they're just like I wanted to move there so I moved I wanted to do this so I did it like there was really no true pushback if they really believed in themselves and they were like no I made up my mind why not do it yeah I mean I think but I think that's the story of black women in general we just get the job done and just feel like that's what we do you know what I'm saying so but that's also part of that wellness is to to recognize your greatness recognize what you've done and to be able to really take stock and and to appreciate that you know and see yourself in that kind of broader aspect because I think it's easy I mean it's easy for me to be like you know yeah I live in Spain I do all this other stuff and I'd be like oh but you know this I I didn't pitch myself here or I didn't show up for this panel or all this other stuff that you get caught up in and you need that perspective to be like yo like you've done some things like you've done some things and it's cool you don't have to stay there but to appreciate that and to give yourself that credence especially when we embark on new ventures or endeavors sometimes it's easy for us to undervalue ourselves and to be like oh I don't know if I can it's like okay you can do anything yes so Christine you mentioned that you strongly believe in being professionally fulfilled and financially abundant when you are living abroad or thinking about going abroad how does that translate to the just a regular listener in the audience who's like I want to go abroad I've never considered being professionally fulfilled right like what would that look like for me what kind of tips would you give to someone who's listening yeah I think that's two things you have to decide if you want to be employed abroad or if you want to have your own business or be self-employed abroad because I think those are those are two foundational aspects to really consider right I want to be professionally fulfilled and financially abundant if I'm going to work for somebody abroad or if I'm going to have my own business like period because who wants to go abroad and be miserable like absolutely not I just tell people like living abroad is already you know very special most of the time you know living in southern Europe with bureaucracy where they're like minyana minyana you're like what I'm supposed to I have this paper this is an official document minyana minyana so you want to make sure that regardless of where you go okay professionally fulfilled financially abundant my specialty is building a business abroad okay but if you decide to be employed abroad I would say also consider work culture because that's going to be really big in your professional fulfillment I had a guest in my podcast she's Jamaican she actually went to Japan from her master's in architectural design she speaks fluent Japanese and she works at an architectural firm but her first like year or six months she was bullied and that's typical in Japanese work culture there's a bullying culture and working a lot so it's really important for you to understand what does professionally fulfilled mean to you which really goes to what does professional wellness look like for you who do I work with how do I interact with people what are my work hours what are my standards what are the things that I'm working on how my professionally develops like really to have a your own personal definition of professional wellness and then also financially abundant would mean really understanding what financial wellness means to you because if you again are getting employed abroad you might be working in an emerging economy where maybe the compensation like the dollars and cents salary isn't very high but you may have a house a car you know live in health for your kids your kids go to international school and you get a flight home like a lot of these things matter so it's important for you to consider that if you want to build a business abroad which is what I love and I think most people not mostly I think a lot of people should consider it especially black women and women of color because that's where my heart is at to to be professionally fulfilled abroad I believe it's about betting on yourself and understanding who you want to work with and how you want to work with them because that's what's so amazing about working for yourself and building a business that supports not only your professional curiosities but also supports you financially to live a life well lived abroad because nobody wants to be abroad and struggling nobody wants to be abroad and like not doing the things that they want to be doing doesn't make any sense and I feel that by building a business you can build an asset to support yourself an asset that you can sell at some point or an asset that you can grow and grow and grow and what I find is that most people don't recognize that they can really take their expertise their experiences and package that into a business it could be a consultancy it could be a subscription it could be a community it could be digital products it could be so many different things that it can really be a really an outpouring of your service too in your profession you can really have the impact that you're looking to have and also get paid what you want and so for that I would say have a guide it's called build a business abroad guide you can get that but ultimately you need to be able to say to yourself and know for yourself what is your number like the number that makes your like the financial number that makes your life go around so you got to be honest with yourself about that you need to know what is the work cycle that you're trying to work in like if you have small kids how are you trying to work or if you only want to work a couple months out of the year or certain kind of cycles or something like that that needs to be very clear too because that will also dictate the business model truly and perhaps projection for when you can take this from maybe side hustle to full time and then also you need to do a really good audit of your marketable skills because I don't necessarily believe in reinventing the wheel I believe in understanding what you're capable of and maybe applying it across different industries and different projects but I'm not necessarily the person's like you know what just burn down the past 15 years of your professional life we're just going to start from zero absolutely not there's no need to do that right but so understanding your marketable skills understanding what people have always sought you out for what is your specialty was it and also the thing that you want to keep on doing and I always tell people it's not necessarily what's on your CV it could be the things that you did in your professional capacity that nobody paid you for which is a lot for women honestly so whether it was like organizing conferences or the speakers for your companies you know big conference you didn't get paid for that but that might be a specialty for you or putting together events or what have you other kinds of like client relationship things that you did and everybody was like oh but can you do this and it wasn't really part of part of your job description like those types of like nuance tasks and things like that that can end up being a business for you so I always tell people do a marketable skills analysis do a really good audit of that and then kind of see where they have those overlaps and that's how I would start that process of building a business that you could be professionally fulfilled and financially abundant abroad yeah so christine that was wonderful and I think it really ties in well to our last question here which is do you have any advice for anyone that's listening about all the I want to say miraculous all the miraculous things that you've done with your law degree and with your experience in living abroad right now yeah I would say if you're thinking about practicing abroad or just doing something different it never hurts to have another language so learn another language because that makes you marketable across so many different sectors and industries and you'll be able to take your law degree into different parts of the world so I would say do that the second thing is is that I think it's really important for you to be really honest about what does a life well-lived look like for you sometimes it's hard to be honest with ourselves because if we feel like we're super honest we might crumble with the results but it's really important for you to be honest about was it that you are seeking in your life and understand that you are worth the risk that you're worth the bet on yourself like your happiness your fulfillment the curiosities of your heart they're worth being explored and whatever you need to do and I'm not saying just like just you know quit your job and just leave tomorrow but I think it's really important for you to be honest with yourself and give those desires and give that vision some some air and some light I would also say that if you're thinking about going abroad with a legal degree think about starting your own business I think so I think it makes sense I know so many people who have law degrees maybe they're still practicing maybe they're not who've been able to do amazing things around the world with their legal degree I would I would say do that and if all else fails I would say if you have the time walk the Camino de Santiago which is what I did in well 2014 it's a 30 day well for me it was 33 day trek across spade and just you know take a long walk think about your life think about what you really want it helps it really does help I think that what I sometimes feel sad for the younger lawyers you know in the United States is that I think you could probably feel very trapped by the situation like you might have a lot of legal debt or you know you have a lot of expectation with your family and you see all your friends and they're doing all this stuff and I was the same way I had gone rogue and all my friends had we're making lots of money and I was like myself like to make no sense I think though you have to give yourself a chance so so give yourself that space you know I don't want you guys to feel like this is the only thing I can do and if I don't do that I'm a failure no you can you can go and do whatever you want and I think uh even if you don't want to be an entrepreneur a spirit of curiosity and maybe of innovation and entrepreneurship will do you well because you will go and research and you will put yourself up for opportunities or just to be in conversation with people and it will change your life so I would I would say that I would say go out and heed the call of your heart if that's what you know like it doesn't mean that it has to be an opposition to you practicing law but it's important for you to do that I think. Yeah first of all this was a special episode because Christine you are a lawyer right my whole thing is talking to lawyers who do really cool really funky things have side hustles have all these things outside of their degree and you have definitely embodied that but also for everyone listening just remember that your law degree will show up your education will show up in many different places right you do not have to be going into a courtroom you do not have to be walking into that big law office to be using your degree okay so re-listen to the episode if you're like how's Christine using her degrees I could probably list 12 ways because it's constantly being shown in all these different ways and even with you living in Valencia Spain and creating a life that you love so absolutely I mean I feel like being an entrepreneur is all about being a problem solver and I feel like lawyers are problem solvers uh we're researchers and we're like it depends on me investigate you know I feel like it's actually really well suited absolutely well thank you so much Christine thank you so much for the opportunity I really appreciate it oh of course all right bye