 Let's show Matilda a lot of love tonight and hopefully we can get her to move back to San Francisco Please welcome Matilda Bernstein-Sickermore Thanks so much for bringing me. Thanks to the library and thanks everyone for coming So let's see tonight, I think some of you might know that in sketch to see Alexa the narrator who was a 21 year old queen in 1995 and In 1995 one of Rebecca Brown's books came out and that's the Gifts of the Body and in the book Alexa reads the Gifts of the Body And so that that is a chapter in the book. It's a chapter. I've never read aloud But since Rebecca Brown wasn't able to make it tonight. I thought that chapter I might read It's a little it's quieter than some of my chapters. I generally like to read the loudest part But of course, I always like to say before the reading, you know, whatever you need to do to take care of yourselves Feel free to do it, right? If you need to laugh cry jump up and down You know take your shoes off go to the bathroom buy books and run out the door You know scream yell clap, you know, whatever you need to do please do it I always say the only bad audience is the dead audience And I can tell this audience tonight is not going to be that one So, yeah, I'm gonna read and then of course we'll have time for questions conversation controversy explication extravagance Transformation all the good things So yeah, I'm I think I'll start by reading just a little bit from the beginning so you can get a sense and then I'll read that other chapter So yeah, like I said the book takes place in 1995 in Boston and the narrator Alexa is a 21-year-old queen I think that's all you need to know right now And how's my volume is everyone hearing me everything, okay, good perfect The way you're gonna be I'm at the other side with Polly trying to figure out which is worse straight Celebrities who wear red ribbons to show they really care about their dying gay friends or Gay people who wear them instead of actually doing anything Maybe they should all move to the suburbs so we don't have to deal with them, okay and This boy Andre who Polly knows from Bagley leans over and says that's bullshit I'm still strung out from coke K pod and X to see a few days ago Plus I'm getting over a cold and all I've had is a double shot of wheatgrass And I'm waiting for the waiter to bring me my food so I can write in my journal of course Andre is wearing a red ribbon But Polly was wearing one when I met her and she figured it out quickly enough Girl, I say it's just an empty symbol And that's when Andre starts screaming in my face I'm not a girl if I wanted a girl. I'd sleep with a girl I'm a man a 21 year old HIV positive Latino gay man, and I like the suburbs What's wrong with the suburbs if I want to move to the suburbs. I'll move to the suburbs I don't want to live on my life in a ghetto. You can rebel all you want But there's no way to fight your parents. They're the people who made you the way you're brought up Is the way you're gonna be And I say we're brought up to hate ourselves and we can go beyond that But he just keeps yelling if I wanted a girl I get a real girl a girl the pussy if I wanted a woman I have sex with a woman. I like the suburbs. I want to live in the suburbs. I grew up there What's wrong with the suburbs? Then he walks off like we're mortal enemies, and I'm thinking I need food I need food. I need food. Get me food right now. Where's my food? I Go to the bathroom and when I get out I'm about to light a cigarette, but then I think smoking is disgusting So I go back to the table and tell Polly I'm quitting and of course she looks at me like I'm crazy My soup finally arrives But now I can't focus on eating because some straight asshole behind me is saying the stupidest things I mean, I guess he's on a date. So he's trying to sound romantic. He just said I have to confess something I've never given flowers to someone. I don't know before, but I really like you. I do you remind me of my sister Maybe it's time to look for another pair of combat boots I mean the duct tape on these looks glamorous, but it isn't gonna last through winter Polly's too cold. So she decides to go home girl bring a coat next time. Okay By the time I get home It's already dark and as soon as I get inside I hear something awful on the stereo. Are you kidding? It's aqua long I Get to the living room and there's Brian with two of his buddies from the Coast Guard Everyone's yelling and there are beer cans everywhere. I feel like I'm in a frat house Polly Joey Bobby and Billy are drinking with the straight boys like sorority girls Bobby giggles and says want a beer? gross I Walk into my room Even though there's nothing in there Everything's still in the living room That's what I'm supposed to be doing tonight Moving my shit into my room because I'm finally done painting and I got the new carpet and everything I Called Joanna who tells me she went over to Jack and Jamie's house and some man turned blue And they were smacking him trying to wake him up and someone else was screaming and crying and Joanna started laughing and said Okay, let's get high She says I don't know if I can kick heroin takes care of me I want to say come stay with me But what the how would she do in Boston with a bunch of Coast Guard assholes yelling in the other room? So instead I say you can come here if you know you're not gonna get strung out Joanna says listen our relationship can't be the way it used to be it hurts me too much I'm getting close to a woman for the first time and you know our connection was fucked up I say what do you mean? She says I know we kept each other alive at one point You were the most important person of my life But you're on the East Coast now and I need space to love women to feel the fear and get somewhere with it But why are you putting me to some distant category? Why can't you just talk to me? So then she starts talking about speedballs It's the most amazing feeling all the colors in your head like you're part of the sofa and Everything in your body is a door the lights on and off on and off and I say that's not a sofa. It's a broomstick and Then we're finally laughing together Even if her voice still sounds hollow in that heroin way Joanna tells me she's gonna help Jack kick Jack total she'll be shitting and throwing up in bed for seven days Please call me Joanna says I'm gonna get up the phone. I need a cigarette, but then I remember I just quit Maybe I need a shower But now I'm thinking about San Francisco and how Joanna wants me to send her the papers I've written for school, but I'm embarrassed because I feel like school is draining away everything I learned when I left school I mean every time I hear someone say Ontology or epistemology or reify or whatever other stupid theory bullshit. I want to die I Call Melissa who says what would you do if you thought AIDS was a government plot and Suddenly it's like everything in the room is vibrating too dark and too light at the same time And I get that familiar feeling like someone's behind me My father I know he's not behind me, but should I turn around? Melissa's saying something and I feel like I'm starting to cry. So I say hold on Where am I? Breathe Alexa breathe Okay, this is my room my new room in Boston. My father doesn't even live in Boston There's some annoying classic rock in the background a few tears I pick up the phone and say sorry. I was getting an incest flashback and Melissa says, oh, I'm sorry There's something in the way her voice Changes so fast to meet the situation and I'm thinking about when we met and act up And how she would never say anything at meetings, but afterwards her analysis was so clear Clearer than anyone I'd ever met and she'd left school too Melissa says I had a dream that I had sex with my father and I wasn't scared I'm scared now. I Tell her I can lend her money to move out, but she doesn't want me to why I say why I can't she says There's something I still need to figure out. I Hang up the phone and then I'm sitting on the new remnant I put over the old carpet in my empty room because the landlord wouldn't let me tear it out and shag carpet is disgusting Talk about allergies. I make a list of all the people I love and there are five Well, is it warm in here or is it me? Sweating great so That gives you an introduction into the book and the various themes So now I'm going to read from this chapter which is toward the end of the book And this is where Alexa the narrator who just heard from where she reads the gifts of the body and she is in the she's a hooker and she's in a kind of How do we call it some sort of living situation with a trick? and that's Yeah, that's I'm trying to think it was anything else. I need to set up, you know It's still it's still in Boston still 1995 and the book has just come out and they're reading it together If I can find the right page, let's see. Here we go between your heart and the fabric I Would never have imagined reading this book with Nate But he came home one night and I was sitting at the dining room table sobbing No I'd already stopped sobbing. I was just looking at the wall or Not the wall really but in that direction, you know how you can look right at something, but you don't see it. I Was thinking about when I first heard about AIDS Maybe I was 12 and it was rock Hudson and the inquirer and I didn't even know who that was a Famous actor my mother said and the headline told me he died of AIDS Liberace to pictures of him really scared me. I didn't know what to do with those pictures I just knew that I was gonna die if anyone knew Knew about me and they did know so I knew I was gonna die in In the gifts of the body the narrator is a home care worker for people dying of AIDS And when I opened it up the first time I got scared because the writing was so simple And I wondered if all these deaths had changed Rebecca Brown's writing When Nate asked what was wrong. I handed in the book and he said we should read it together So now I'm already crying again on page two which is numbered four The narrator is talking about leaving little surprises under the pillow of the person She's taking care of or rearranging his toys. So the toys are kissing Rick loves surprises Rebecca Brown writes and Then on the next page Rick is on the floor or no, I guess it's not the floor It's the futon in the living room where he's curled up in fetal position writhing in pain The narrator says to Rick. I'm sorry you hurt so much and I'm thinking about how much I hurt How much everyone I've ever known hurts or everyone I've ever known who's meant something to me And what about the ones who act like they don't hurt like nothing's affecting them at all like Joey Look what happened to Joey and then the narrator does something that I can hardly believe She gets on the futon with Rick She gets on the futon and lies on her side and puts her arms around him as he's sweating and in pain I'm kind of relieved. I can still cry like this in spite of the cocaine cure I'm only on page seven and this book already means so much to me The home care worker is cleaning the apartment while Rick is in the hospital She wants Rick to come home to a place that's soothing She avoids the kitchen table. There's something she saw there and when we find out what it is when I find out what it is That's where I'm crying again Rick had gone out to get cinnamon rolls like he used to after his lover died But before he'd also gotten sick He'd gone out to choose the softest rolls one for himself and one for the home care worker And now he's in the hospital The narrator closes her eyes and lowers her head toward the table and I'm thinking of tears tears at this table with Nate and how he's still not looking up which helps me not to try to change anything and I wonder if he knows that There's something about no one else knowing someone is taking care of you Rebecca Brown writes If Mrs. Lindstrom pretends the attendant is just there on a visit on a visit saying hi Maybe if she just pretends all this can become pretend I look at Nate again, and I wonder what we're pretending Ever since I told him about Joey He says he's not in the mood for sex so I cook dinner because Nate says he's trying to get healthy Though I'm sure he's eating bacon and eggs for breakfast and a hamburger for lunch But it's almost cute how he asked all these questions about my cooking and then forgets everything I say We sit down and talk like husband and wife or father and son or maybe just friends That's the best part when it actually feels like we're friends Every now and then Nate wants me to give him a massage and then when I get hard he says oh Let me see that and then he jerks me off until I come on his chest and then I hate him again I should be reading this book with Avery, but he doesn't like reading and anyway said he didn't want to read a book about AIDS But what about Joey? I asked don't you want to think about Joey? Joey's gone Avery said Joey's gone, and he's not coming back. What's there to think about? It's so surprising when you cry and when you don't The narrator tells Ed that he can check into the hospice and then leave if he wants to Even though she's never seen anyone leave Is this an act of kindness? The narrator is so caring and detached She feels so deeply for these people. She only knows through their illness, and I wonder if this is what community means Ed turned down the hospice. He's enraged making contradictory demands He's a child and an adult. He wants to have a garage sale He wants the option to leave his house again on his own The chapter is called the gift of tears I'm getting used to the light of the chandelier Nate's behind me placing another cocktail to my right. Thank you. I Wonder if I want him to touch my shoulder, but then he doesn't I'm thinking about the way death brings you closer to childhood Does that mean into or away from pain? The way the narrator washes Carlos's hands arms armpits feed his innocence at experiencing touch with and without its implications and Then the fear That's the childhood. I remember Can there ever be innocence with so much fear? Mrs. Lindstrom who asked the attendant to call her Connie she Sarah converted from a blood transfusion when she had a mastectomy Before blood was tested for HIV She has a gay son Joe who feels guilty because he thinks he should be the one dying His mother never did anything wrong I'm thinking about this shame. We all carry the shame that means we deserve to die Connie holding on to her routine and hoping that if she doesn't mention she can't eat Maybe she'll be able to eat Ed says there won't be anyone left to remember us when we all die And I wonder if that's already true How Avery has taken Joey's place at the clubs with all the different sized vials and no one even asks No one even asks about Joey We sit in his apartment and it's like we're ghosts These people want so much This attendant she tries to provide what she can maybe more When the epidemic started there was a shorter time between when people got sick and when they died That's a line that really gets me because this isn't the beginning of the epidemic anymore But one minute Joey was telling us and I didn't believe her. I really didn't believe her I thought it was just another cruel joke It's all frozen in my head now like we're still standing on the Esplanade in the snow and Joey says I'm dying I'm dying and The next day she went home to her parents house in Brandywine Delaware. I thought we were gonna visit She told us we could visit. She told us there were castles there. I thought we were gonna visit the castles. I Remember that Queen who came to our house in San Francisco to look at a room and she wanted to do touch healing on everyone I was appalled I Saw her around a few times and she always acted like we were really close and at first I was annoyed But then I started to like seeing her Then the next time I heard about her it was for her memorial or Thomas who arranged all these candles on the bathtub before we had sex in the bath And I was like, what are you doing? We don't need candles But he wanted it to be romantic It was romantic in six months. He was dead. I Had one friend who went to every memorial he heard about even for people. He didn't know But I didn't want to steal other people's grief As if there was a limited amount Now I wonder if I should have gone to all those memorials Maybe reading this book with Nate at the dining room table is some kind of memorial But what are we gonna say when we're done? Like a bunch of 95 year olds watching their generation end I closed the book for a moment and drink the rest of my cocktail And I noticed Nate's shifted his body to the left and I've shifted to the right So we're not directly across from one another anymore What is a lie and what isn't? Like when the narrator tells a new client that his former attendant misses him Even though she's never actually met the attendant and when the new client says I miss him too That place between your heart and the fabric on your chest the fabric on your chest and the world beyond The narrator learns that her supervisor is leaving. She's leaving because she's sick Another of these moments that feels like a shock a shock to the narrator a shock to me at this table with Nate Where I keep crying and he doesn't look up except this time he does Just briefly and then he reaches over for my hand and I reached for his This gesture that happens so often in the book and maybe it feels nice here, too Although it's hard to reach that far across the table. I mean reach that far and keep reading at the same time So I pull my hand back Softly and I smile Nate smiles too, and then we both go back to reading It's not that this book doesn't have flaws. It's just that there are so few of them I'm getting to the end of my third cocktail and there's that feeling in my head that must be chemical the perfect combination of liquor and coke in vulnerability on ice It's what I need to channel in order to fuck Nate Right now I could easily bend him over that white sofa He would laugh in that drunk old guy way and say let's go upstairs Maybe I'll never have to do that again The book ends with Connie's death The ending is nothing but sobs until I have to put the book down and go upstairs to piss I've been holding it for too long. I Study my face in the mirror under my eyes There's a rash and my lips are pressed up into a child's frown I can't decide whether I need a bump of coke, but I do one anyway and Then I wonder whether closing the book with the death of an old straight woman is dishonest I Go up to my room and lie on top of the velvet comforter and stare at the chandelier Floating in a way, but also sinking Eventually Nate comes upstairs and stands in my doorway He looks like he's in shock. I Sit up and he sits down next to me on the bed for a moment it Feels like we're in the same place Yeah, so Of course, you're welcome to ask anything you'd like I am doing two more readings in the Bay Area and every reading I read something different I never repeat myself in the same city about it So I'll be reading a Sunday at Alicat. That's with Diana Cage And then I'll be reading on Tuesday at East Bay Booksellers formerly known as diesel in Oakland Feel free to tell your friends to come out But but yeah, it was it was interesting reading that chapter Because that you know obviously has a different emotionality and feeling all the emotion in the room. So thank you for that So yeah, what questions do people have? Oh good. I get to stretch more I Yes, so I this first time I've seen you read It is Alexa your voice Or is that there's a some other voice? Well, so Alexa is the main character of the book And definitely all all the books I write I really our voice driven and so Imperfecting the voice. I really always want to edit anything that gets in the way of that So, I mean Alexa is a 21 year old queen living in Boston in 1995 And I was a 21 year old queen living in Boston in 1995 So there are definitely I'm definitely drawing from my own voice and my own experience and especially in terms of the Details of Boston like I was really meticulous about wanting that there are differences I think you can probably the main differences You know, I lived in Boston and I was like get me the fuck out of here and I left and I think what I wanted to explore in the Book is I don't think these characters can leave I mean, that's an open question But Alexa is definitely the most scathing and the most politicized, but there's no place to have that met you know in Boston and So she has a radical queer analysis, but she's trying to actualize that inside gay culture It's not queer culture, you know, and and it's a gay culture that is regressive at its core, you know, you know racist misogynist homophobic Transphobic Classist, you know the whole thing and we were all very familiar with that gay culture, right? But I think in Boston it's even more magnified, you know, and So in writing the voice I wanted to kind of explore how Like she's working against that I mean that's like her vision But also how she's trapped in it And so so yeah, so I think that's where it maybe it differs from my own voice and I think also But yeah, I think for me in Yeah, in writing I always want to make sure that like the people the readers are entering on the terms of the narrator And and in any reading like I do want to inhabit, you know, whatever the emotions are But but yeah, I think and I think part of what I Mean it's interesting because when I first started writing the book I did it was about my own memories of the time and then but it really shifted fast and became Like I because the trauma I think of that time period came through So the trauma of Boston the city rapidly afraid of difference the trauma of that gay culture the trauma of 1995 and also these characters, you know, they're mostly are like 1920 21 22 There are exceptions like net Nate is an older character, you know in his 50s But the main characters, you know, they've all grown up with AIDS suffusing their desires and no way to imagine a way out and I think and actually in this chapter Which you don't totally necessarily see but you know, Nate has not been out for his life And so the amount of time that he's been out is the same amount of time as Alexa even though she's 21 She has more experience in gay and queer cultures And so like him reading the book It's a shock because he actually did not experience it even though he is of the generation Where that would have known all their friends would have died right and Alexa is the next generation So I also kind of wanted to explore. I mean, there are a lot of things going on But but that was also this generational question Like I think in a way the book becomes this generational story and that I definitely did not intend when I started to write it But it's this this generation You know, it's not the generation of people who like grew up and experience sexual liberation and then watched all their friends die But it's the generation that grew up with no possibility of imagining anything else. So there was no there wasn't the liberated moment To begin with but they're also, you know, yeah, so it's this in-between generation that I think I Think you know when you when I write a book I don't necessarily know why and but after I wrote it I was like, oh, I know why and one of the reasons is is to have that conversation because I feel like there's this weird Conversation I think it's like a dominant media narrative right now that like there is this generation that lost everyone, right? and then there's this generation that knows nothing and like so obviously all Narratives about especially anything about generations is generally a lie But like because there's always overlap but the in here in this case There's a really obvious link and that's there's a generation in between, you know, they're you know And so that loosely is people who grew up, you know, when they were coming of age sexually like basically between 1983 and 1996, you know And so somewhere in that time period and I feel like that story is really left out because it's like so And even I think sometimes people read this book and think of it as the other the previous generation Because that narrative only has two right so it's obviously not a generation that quotation mark knows nothing or doesn't know trauma Which is also I think a complete lie because everyone there is no queer person Especially not like, you know a male socialized fag, you know or anyone who who does not have that trauma somewhere, you know, so But yeah, so I think in some ways it kind of became that generational Story in some ways So, yeah, that's you can get a lot of information when you ask a simple question Yes So it's funny in the book they're always talking about going to province town Spoiler they never make it But I think province town and and the people that do talk and yeah, it comes up a lot because you know, it's a dominant You know place in Boston or anywhere New England But I think I Mean, I think there was something else, you know, let's say in the 70s or 80s, which I did not experience But I could say, you know province town anytime like 90s and beyond I mean it gets worse and worse, but it's kind of like it's the nightmare of assimilation like times ten You know, it's like I mean, I lived there Like a look for a little while after it's after this book takes place So this was like in 2000 the book takes place in 95 and I mean it was you know, and that time I lived I was living New York and I need to get the hell out of New York and So I moved to province town temporarily, you know and and I was there before the season And then I was there during the season and I was there a little bit after the season But like I it's like I mean before I was there I thought the worst possible nightmare of assimilation was Chelsea, you know like Chelsea Muscle Queens, you know the whole like fashion It's like fashion meets masculinity. I mean what could be worse Like hyper masculinity like mandatory, you know, but at the same time wearing like $3,500 the designer clothes But trying to make it look really much, you know, like this is real, you know, this is my yeah I'm wearing these, you know Gucci jeans Yeah So so I always thought that was the worst but like when I saw Chelsea Queens in province town, I was like girl. She's edgy So I think and I think there's this thing Part of it is the closet the that the living closet, you know A lot of people who are closeted in gay couples go to province town And it's there one time when they can feel liberated and that to me is really depressing, you know It's not necessarily depressing for them, but for someone, you know, and and I think And I also think like New England itself, you know, it's very cloistered and Boston is the worst of that actually I think some of the smaller places in New England are somewhat like I think say Providence is more as the more Little more interesting town like places like Worcester Like there are or even Western mass, you know with all the college towns There's like some interesting things going on but Boston and I think province town like magnifies that is this it's like you go there And just because I lived there, you know, it's different if you just go for a few weeks. It's gorgeous I mean, it's absolutely gorgeous like two thirds of the town is protected dunes So it's a national park and you can just like walk through the dunes and get lost in them You know, there's no development in that side and there can't be because it's a it's a park You know, it's protected so and I'd never been to like a beach like that, you know It's on, you know, right on the ocean and it's so that's gorgeous. I mean the light is incredible You know, it's like because of the peninsula and the only place on the east coast where the Sun sets over the ocean And so, you know, you can walk on the breakwater just as the ocean meets the bay and it's like so it's gorgeous, right? But like culturally it's it's empty It's like absolutely empty and it's only I mean that was I haven't been there in 18 years and you know Now they have literally like a Gucci store, you know, like things like that I don't know if it's Gucci, but they have Mark Jacobs. That's what they have, of course So, you know next to like the saltwater taffy store and the you know, the trinket shop and you know It's like what should I get saltwater taffy or Mark Jacobs? So, yeah, so I think it's it's yeah, and also it's because it's I maybe this is true well, I'll just say for Provincetown itself like The that cloisteredness it's like if you live that if you move there, let's say you're immediately like I mean this happens This is just gay culture, but it's so magnified. It's like within three days You've been put into a group and like no one outside of that group will talk to you, right? So like for me it was seasonal Nightlife, you know nightlife workers see those two it's actually like two overlapping groups, right? So there's this other group of like wealthy gays, you know or even like literary You know Provincetown, but like it never intersected, you know because you've already been put in this thing You know there's the people yeah the vacationers and then there's the people live there, you know So there all these it's just like Matt and it's tiny right it's like in the summer You know they're probably I'm not sure but in full season. It's like 2,000 people or something, you know Like in the summer it might be like 50,000. I'm just making this there's numbers up But like something like that It's probably not maybe it's not 50, but it's it's a lot bigger But yeah, so I don't I mean there's a great cruising area. I mean, you know called it's very subtle It's called the dick dock It's like underneath one of the bars like on the bay and that's hot, you know, I'm off for that There's sex in the reeds. There's a lot of nudity, which is great, you know, like even though it's a lot technically illegal But but it's not Yeah, it's really empty. I would say you know overall I mean, and of course you could go and have it like I could go now Maybe I could go and like, you know, teach a writing workshop and I would have a whole other experience, you know, like but But I think overall it's gross Yes So I'm interested in the queer voice and the queer politic particularly The way it connects to liberation and a lot of a lot of the sort of bold queer Voices that I hear in in your work and other works is is actually sort of Trapped in a lot of ways even if they're and for me sort of queerness comes with liberation like there's a way in which To live that out. You kind of have to sort of find a way to be liberated. So I'm wondering Where's the liberation for Alexa or other sort of Faggots like me, you know who just sort of To me that's the politic of queerness Yeah, I mean I think For me and in the book. I really want to explore that tension, right? So it's a tension between having a radical queer analysis and not being able to actualize it in the world So so for for Alexa and for the characters in the book. They are trapped, you know I mean, it doesn't mean there aren't moments of liberation But I'm one of those moments is drugs, right? The book is called sketch to see there's a lot of drugs and drugs in the book are the way that community is formed So we know that that's corrupt, right? But it doesn't mean that it's also not real, you know And so so I think for Alexa, you know in the book sort of the pageantry of gay club culture You know instead of the nine to five, you know reality It's like the 5 p.m. To 9 p.m. Reality right not intersecting with the work-a-day world whenever possible, right? And of course that's not possible because it's Boston and so getting on the tee You know people are telling you they want to kill you you go out and all the you know The Queens are telling you that you don't deserve to be there because you're too Queenie, you know and so So for me, I want the book is really about that You know in the larger world and I think but I think we all come come up against that there is no place That I found that is truly liberated, you know And I think we always have to work toward that, but I don't think it exists You know and I think the worlds that I have once believed in and that have formed me like In many ways are just as corrupt as the dominating, you know worlds, you know That sort of magnify the same kind of hierarchical viciousness and sort of, you know Transform it and maybe make it a little more, you know a little more sophisticated But but it's the same thing and so for me I think we always have to work against that and so being liberated is it is a personal choice and But it also has to be about like challenging dominant, you know Structures of power whether they be in the larger world that where it's kind of obvious, you know that like, you know Homophobic or transphobic straight people, you know or institutions or laws are wrong, right? That's obvious, but what about homophobic or transphobic queer people? Like, you know and the and the way that becomes internalized I think the way that becomes internalized is central to this book, you know And like like even just the way that like let's say the way AIDS comes up in most You know most of these queens that are in the book It's basically like, oh my gosh stay away from her, you know, she's got AIDS, right? And that's just that standard gay shade, right? And so So yeah, I kind of wanted to explore the that tension. So I'm glad you caught it Did I see a question over here? Yeah, perfect Yeah, um, so I'm curious and it came up in the reading a little bit when you're talking about Joey and kind of this like cultural communal forgetting Something that really struck me about the book was How these figures just continuously disappeared without the narrative So like once I can think of off the top of my head that really affected me reading was like Polly with like one like kind of like What would be like a detrans moment that they confront her or like Joanna Where she's met but like then nothing happens and there's always this kind of anti-climax to that where it's like people just kind of disappear And um, I'm wondering that feels to me and I don't know if this is intentional Kind of like countered by like the very end of The book Where there's like this moment of like remembering someone through like their ashes And I'm wondering if you could talk more about this kind of like the way that In these like communities that people kind of just disappear and there's like no Trace of them anymore. That's something that really resonated with me as someone who like has lived Lots of places where it's just like a constant churn of like New people but like then all the things happened five ten years ago or like who knows what happened, you know Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that great analysis. I love that reading of the book. Yeah So I think it's funny because I think generally, you know, when I write a book I always and you know, the editors are looking at it I think often they ask questions like You know, like, oh, well this character came into the beginning. Why aren't they there in the middle? And I'm like, well, they're not there anymore You know, that's how our lives are, right? I think we're told like when we write fiction or when we write a book It's like, oh, you have to tidy everything up, right? You have to like if this character is here and there was like sort of a romantic interest and it never went anywhere But don't you want to bring it back? And I'm like, no, I don't because it never went anywhere, right? And I do think there is that I think And I think in the book these characters they're in a way, you know, Alexa is trying to create family you know a chosen family and and Succeeds at different times But then it just completely falls apart and it falls apart in lots of different ways So, you know with Polly in some ways, it's it's her childhood Of living in like a Christian fundamentalist upbringing that sort of brings them apart, you know with a character like Joey It's death, right or You know some of the other characters that come in and out and so yeah So I really wanted to to have that I do I agree that I think in In queer worlds it does and maybe this happens everywhere, but since that's what I know Uh, but there are these things where it's like you have this incredibly close Relationship that feels like family and then you know two weeks later it's gone And I think that is speaking brought like outside of the book, you know I feel like that is one of the big tragedies of Like it's one of the places we've really failed You know to create because like when I was you know, when I first Imagined, you know creating like family and love and intimacy and lust on my own terms Like for me, I knew it was permanent and I knew these relationships that I was building when I was like 1921 Um were permanent, right, but I was wrong, right? They all they're all gone, you know, and They're with a very few exceptions um And I think part of that is because we've still internalized The fact the idea that it's not real, you know, and and that's why I think so many people go back To their blood family, you know Even if it's horrible, right? Because like and it hasn't changed, you know, I see people like, you know, like now You know, I'm 45 now So people, you know who are like in their 40s like 20 years ago We're like, I'm never talking to those horrible people and now we're like I'm talking to those horrible people because Like because they feel like they've lost everything, you know, and it's not and that's true You know and so so yeah So in the book, I really did want to and I always had to push back a little bit with editors Because they're like, oh, I want this to be more tidy and I'm like, well, no, I don't want it It's not like our lives are not tidy and I think as soon as you Change the life to fit the narrative then it's no longer It doesn't have any power, you know, and I think and that's dominant publishing is that model, right that you can you can have Now you can kind of like squeeze in a non mainstream life Into a very mainstream form and then it's like, oh, yeah, this is okay, you know And especially if you have the right pedigree. So, you know, you went to the ioritos workshop You got a stegner fellowship, you know, you have like, you know an asian at the wiley agency Then they're like, okay. No, this is a brand. I can I can publish this brand, you know But if you're pushing back against the narrative form at the same time as creating, you know, some sort of like Challenge to that status quo, then I think they're very very very few things And you don't have that pedigree you need those three things. So So I think yeah, so in the book, yeah, I'm so glad you caught that because I really did and I love that interpretation of the ending too You know because there is this this thread in the book Of alexa has the ashes of a friend who had died and she doesn't know what to do with them and she keeps You know, it keeps coming up, you know here and there and she has fantasies about it and something happens in the end I don't know what it is yet But um, but yeah, so thanks for that question other questions um, oh so moved by that chapter and hearing you read it live and There was I just felt the layers in it and I wanted to know more about your writing process and I'll try to Put into words what I felt it's just seemed there was this emotion with her sobbing And sobbing while reading so that that intense emotion existed and yet it was It was subtle in the sense that in the writing it didn't describe the emotion, right? and then there's the hate suddenly of the sex and All the other layers of distance with Nate And so I was wondering in the writing. I mean, I imagine given how much you edit that you kept stripping away some of the more obvious sentiment And I just want to know how you arrived at that beautiful ending with we were finally in the same place Yeah, thank you. That's wonderful. Um, yeah, so I think um For me especially that chapter, I'm working toward feeling right and I think for me Explication always takes away from the feeling and so so it was an interesting process of writing because of course, you know I was right rereading the book and You know, there's a lot I can draw from and I did at one point have a lot more Between segments of the book and then I was like, okay, that doesn't that doesn't need to be there And I don't need to describe if you can feel the experience of the reading then you don't need to be told like How the emotion comes up in that sort of way, so I wanted that to be kind of the mechanism and The part at the end. Yeah, that was the part where at one point I did have more kind of like And I felt like that moment because here is this, you know relationship that Isn't a relationship it is and is not a relationship and then there's and that tension Between it and and it's like they're experiencing something else through reading this book. And so for Alexa, you know, she in order to survive in boston, you know, and She has to You know, she has this scathing analysis, right? And she's on all the time, right? And if someone's telling her they want to kill her, she's like honey I mean, please like whatever, you know, and because that's how she can she can survive, right? She can't let anyone see that they are making her afraid If she has to because because then she's not I mean, she's not actually safe But then she can't even feel that she can exist, right? And so I think in a way and this happens with a few books in the book also A few books a few reading a few books in the book where you know, she also reads Memories that smell like gasoline the day we won a rubbish book and I think so let's take the gifts of the body This is it's how she's able to access her own emotion about what's going on in her life Through this other text and there's this kind of camaraderie With you know, it's a it's a generational camaraderie that she doesn't have in the actual world, you know And so I wanted to show that By showing the experience of reading itself, you know And so that's that's where I think I kind of pared it down And yeah, but it was a little tricky because it's also yeah because it's mapping out this other relationship with Nate And then his relationship with the book is is a different one, but it's also this opening And so I think I can't remember how I think it was just Through feeling that through like feeling this moment of closeness with them that I realized like oh, that's what the book Does right the reading of the book of the gifts of the body And And it comes up in a different way in another chapter where Well, I won't spoil it but we're there together and it's a different relationship to Being in the room together and Having a closeness that's also a distance And also yeah, actually I remember I really really like I don't know it's interesting like I was really picture I can picture that exact moment and I think the picturing of it for me It actually helps, but I don't I don't want to describe that picture You know, I want you to feel it, you know, so if it was a movie then I have it all in my head So if someone wants to make that movie, I've got it, right? So you need that Yeah But yes, thank you Yes Can I ask you whether you were aware of the book the gifts of the body in 1995 In that setting in boston And in what way that book Influenced your life at the time if you were reading it then and if you recall or if you knew Um, how was it received at that time of publication? I know it won this award, but Well, I'm deliterate award, but Was it received in a in a larger way within the The community at that time or just only in literary circles. Was it really a part of What um gay men were talking about at the time or queer people were talking about at the time a This is a series of questions. Bring it on because on that way and b Do you know rebecca brown in seattle? And did you come to the book later only from being in seattle and being exposed to whatever fame she has there and see That sort of radicalism that you're looking for or the the sort of ideal radicalism that you're talking about vis-a-vis Queer liberation which you talk about your other books to um Do you feel like that exists now in seattle in a better way than it did in boston? Or do you think it's here in San francisco or oakland or or where is it? I mean is there a locus for that now? and Is it in the united states is it international like where is this mythical place? Where people have their chosen family that actually stick around and not only that they bring a radical analysis to The political scene and they're effective at changing everything In a way that was more effective than what I saw going on in boston Inact up in other radical and anarchist organizations in the 80s which Included gay men and included lots of people working at gcn Including people like michael bronsky and all kinds of incredibly effective important people in boston to me at the time So yeah, so yeah, I read the gifts of the body in 1995 when it came out. I got it at glad day books in boston And and it did it blew me away and I think that was a time that was a time In my life when I would read any book about aids, you know, and there were many books That probably the most impactful books of my life. I mean I would say, you know close to the knives and memories that smell like gasoline by david wono rovich Life sentences, which is an anthology by thomas a veina um cookie muller's writing actually, um David feinberg What is it called something loathing? It's his memoir. Um, so oh, uh, jill quadra or hill quadras, um city of god And so this was one of those books, you know where I Saw it. I already knew her writing Um And so that's yeah, and so it did but it struck me as like I was like, oh this book is different And I think it was her breakthrough book in a commercial way So it's hard to imagine now, but like writing about aids until Like the late until actually until like say 97 or so until it changed this is an interesting thought I hadn't thought of this before but Ironically once aids, you know changed into or hiv changed into a manageable condition for many You know due to new drugs that actually helped people stay alive instead of just killing them I feel like that's the moment when Writing about aids was no longer considered commercial and also was not even published as much on independent presses But in the mid 90s like gifts of the body is on harpro collins harpro collins at that time was the dominant commercial like Literary press, you know and and it was and so it made her into a commodity in a certain sense Which before that her right and her right if she was here she could tell this exact story But but I would say before that her writing was, you know read among say literati and in queer worlds And that book I don't know who read it, but it was definitely, you know, had a commercial Visibility ironically it's out of print because of that, you know So that's the weird thing about publishing is like you can have a very successful book on a commercial press But they're not going to keep it in print, you know That's that's one advantage of being on indie press even if you can't reach the same audience It could be in print 20 years later. So so that's been out of print for a long time The question about Where is the place? For queer radicalism or queer radicals or where is where is that politic actualized? I don't have the answer Unfortunately, but Ha ha ha ha But I do want to say I feel like And there is it is interesting because there are places at different times and you know in our lives that And in a broader sense, you know like san francisco Certainly is a place that historically has that imprint, you know, and it is the place that formed me and formed my analysis um And obviously san francisco doesn't have that possibility in the same way anymore and I I'm struck actually this is the first time I've been here when I I have a hard I've had a hard time like feeling that i'm in san francisco You know, it's the first time that that's actually I mean and I have to like like I've been walking around like just I'm like, it doesn't I can't feel it, you know And so like I found myself I walked to like the first place. I lived in san francisco, which was 1992 On 26 in florida Like I just found myself walking there because I was trying to find something familiar and I was like I felt nothing I mean it felt a little but I was like, you know, I was like walking around Like I mean the last 10 years I lived here where it was in the tenderloin and that was the place that was most Like where I felt like just felt like Was home, you know And um, so I haven't actually that's what I'm gonna do right after this reading I've walked around the tenderloin to see if I can feel it more But like I kind of like avoided the mission, which was the place that had formed me And but but I found myself walking to the mission to just try to feel something and I was like Like to like encounter people that I could imagine Like were in some way like me or something like that, you know, I saw like one, you know on the whole like, you know, you know walking for like an hour or two And and the only people that actually that and this, you know, I haven't been here that long I'm just talking about just my experiences of walking around But the only people who I see on the street who a lot of my life takes place like walking around This is how I like have like this is why I live in a city You know what I mean is so I can walk around and like have random interactions and And and so I I noticed the only people who really like look at me like one of them, you know Where they're like, oh, I relate to you are people who are homeless And I feel like that's where the people who are the friends have become, you know, literally the friends, you know, and Like I was I was walking down, you know, seventh and south of market And, you know, there was someone like in a like red Afro wig and like in a wheelchair and Was like, you know, like Like just looked up and was like, hi And I was like, okay, there it is, right, but it's like so marginalized, you know, it's like a totally different experience than Like, you know, feeling like, oh, I have this neighborhood where people were even if it's corrupt, right Where it's still like, oh, you know, like this is a queer space, you know And I and you can walk down the street and you're like, oh, who's that? Who's that hottie with the like dyed red hair and be like, hey And then they stop on their bike and, you know, you're like, let's get tea or, you know, like, who are you, you know And I that's like someone who I met in like 1993 and who I just saw a reading in la, you know, and So so I so but I do think On a broader sense, you know, you know, we're living in, you know, the dominant colonial power in the world, right So anytime we're living we're living in a terrible place and like We have to make something else anyway, you know And so and I think we can do that anywhere It may not take place in the same way Or in the same forms, but I think we have to like struggle against it and try to try to create it even if it's in moments I mean, I hope it becomes more than moments, but And the last part of your question I do remember about Seattle Is not better Definitely not there's great air the air is great fresh air. They're beautiful trees Culturally it is dead So and people are very cold distant Not that I mean there are exceptions, you know, and I'm I'm going I've been away for about like seven or eight months I'm going back and I'm going to make just like I just said I'm dead I'm making it happen At least, you know, so that I can feel like I have a home because I haven't felt like I've had a home since I left here So maybe we'll take one more question and then of course we'll have time for private questions We'll have time for book signing Um, and I love hugs. So if anyone's a hug I've got hugs too So last question, please Thank you so much and the reading was beautiful and it's so wonderful to see you Matilda and Your analysis is so incredible. You're so brilliant and You're so missed here in san francisco and um I love this idea that that you're writing about and talking about the chosen queer family and how Temporary and almost ephemeral, you know, the relationships are but yet our relationships with our queer literature Is what sustains and to hear you writing about a book from 20 years ago and Has me thinking just about My own, you know queer library Of which your books are among That I return to again and again and again and these are the relationships that have Lasted and persisted You know the relationships with our queer Books like that is our queer life that experience. So thank you I love that. Thank you Yeah, I don't I don't I think that was uh that question had its answer in it, right? But I will say I think for me, you know Like when I was first like coming of age as an avowedly queer person in the world when I moved to san francisco I was 19 like yeah one of the way that I Like found culture and community and relationships was through exchanging books, right? We were all like we would read some book and you know one thing I remember, you know books like It was when I was first remembering that I was sexually abused and reading bastard of carolina was the first time that like That I've seen that experience in writing. I mean I might look at it differently now, but at that time it was like a life changing book, you know, or Well, it's certainly like, you know, david won't rovich's work or shari maraga at that time or I remember going to this reading actually it was um it was at the women's building and I at that time I lived right around the corner and it was um it was dorthy allison shari maraga june jordan and adrian rich and And that just seemed normal, you know, it was like like oh and I was like who's this old white woman up on that stage I don't even know she is and that was adrian rich, you know Because people were like really you know because she was the four She you know there of the next generation after her and so people were really like adrian rich and I was like I don't want to hear But like, you know and I think um So that is powerful hearing you say that and I think that is one of the things That I wanted to show in the book, right also is like how literature becomes like Like a lifeboat in a certain way and also a way to like for me I think the really important thing is is to feel right. It's like I mean, yes, it gives us an analysis Yes, it allows us to see ourselves and to to like Think of new ways of living, you know and taking care of one another and Also to see all the horrible things that are going on in the world, you know, all of that is there But I think also it's that in the book. It's really it's it's a way to feel right and it is this Intergenerational kinship that isn't I think we've you know, I think as queers we've done a terrible job of having that You know and aids of course had a huge impact on that because people literally died But I think also, you know that the legacy of like of ageism in queer worlds in all directions Is so extreme that it prevents that kinship, you know, especially because I feel like the only way Generally, I mean the most common way is just if it's eroticized, right? That's not enough, you know, that's That's not that's just another fetish, you know, mostly instead of having like created like if we're going to create structures that are like Not predicated on the violence that we grew up with, you know If we're going to create something that that is and you know, it's funny because I had a friend once it was like Why do we even use the word family? I mean, it's so gross like we need something else and I've come to believe that You know, we need something else, but it needs to be something that's more and not less So so I think I'll leave and this feels this feels familial. This feels communal So thank you And like I said, I'll be here to sign books to answer private questions to give you hugs And also socialize amongst one another if you see someone you're like, who's that? I haven't seen them before they or you're like, I like that question Go up to people in chat people. You don't know especially please Thank you