 Delighted to be back with the Donahue group. The four of us so enjoyed just sitting around and talking about consequential things that we have absolutely no control over. So that makes it, I think, even more fun. My name is Mary Lynn Donahue. I'm the alleged host of the show and certainly enjoyed that position without any power attached to it. My trusty mates here, Ken Risto, social studies teacher and director of curriculum and assessment for the Sheboygan Area School District. Tom Pineski, math professor at the University of Wisconsin Sheboygan Campus. Cal Potter, politician, legislator, extraordinaire, former state senator. It's your turn this week. And assistant superintendent for library services at the department of public instruction. So we're here, we're talking about state issues but we had gotten so involved in our last conversation about Blue Harbor that we didn't really have a chance to touch on the county referenda questions relating to the nursing homes. Interesting issues and there are two questions that as I understand that are gonna be on the April ballot. One is whether or not the county can exceed its revenue caps in order to continue support of the two county owned nursing homes and whether just in general, if I have that right. Cal, you probably are. I haven't seen the wordage, exactly. Okay, this is going to be the advisory, I believe. It is advisory. And then in November would be the binding. And one of the reasons you wanna do an advisory referendum is that the language that is required by statute in a binding referendum is very, very limited and from what I can tell kind of confusing. So this is a way I think to educate voters about what they're really voting for and I know that the county board had a lot of conflict about how the questions were worded but that second question actually asks whether just in general, we can exceed the revenue caps. Sheboyne County continues to struggle and I think is doing a good job with its budget issues but we don't have a county sales tax. I think there are only 14 counties. I may be wrong but a fairly small number of counties that do not have a county sales tax so those budget issues are important. Just on the nursing homes, any predictions on where it's gonna land or what the decision is going or the advice is going to be for the county board? Well my advice would be that don't stray too far from the intent of the circulators and signers of those petitions. When you have 9,000 signatures that are submitted to you asking for a referendum that clearly clearly says do we wanna continue operating these nursing homes? I think that's a pretty direct intent by the circulators and signers. Now when you start getting into all the details you can I think get off onto revenue caps and tax bases and all kinds of other things that then all of a sudden people say these guys are trying to complicate the issue. Maybe the intent in some cases is not to do that but I think the public reaction here can be very very negative as to what the intent then of the people in offices. I mean people are generally very cynical about politicians and their intent and if these referendums on the April ballot and subsequently the one in November clearly don't match what people thought they were gonna get as a result of asking through this referendum I think there's gonna be a lot more hostility than a calming of the waters that you would think would happen. Actually I did see the language for both of the referenda and it was pretty straightforward I thought and it is difficult to craft a question. I saw the result of Senator Libam's poll that I think was printed in the beacon and I would just suggest Tom might disagree but I would suggest that the way the questions were worded may have suggested certain answers and that's always the issue that you face when you're trying to develop a neutral question but I thought that the two questions that I saw in the paper were pretty straightforward. They don't reflect the complexity of the issue and people do need to be educated on what it means to run a nursing home. There are clear pluses, there are clear minuses and I think what the county board is trying to do is just struggle with that balance and it's tough. Yeah they're related but I think the public really has in mind yeah you can ask me whether we want to exceed the cap on spending and whether we want to be more generous in our tax dollars but we also over here want to have a decision on whether we want these nursing homes or not so I think well they're related because obviously the running of these nursing homes includes the need for more revenue. The people do view I think these as two separate questions. You can ask me that but don't put them together and confuse me because then I might vote no when I really want to vote yes for nursing homes but I don't want you to raise my taxes so I think that's what the people are looking for as far as clarity are these two different concepts. Yeah well it'll be interesting to see. But where does that put us? I mean if you vote yes I want nursing homes and I want them run by the county but no don't touch my taxes. The way their structure is not an either or. That's why it's a complex issue that needs to be explained fully but people look at things a little more simply I think than sometimes the people that's why representative government for people to study the details but I think the people here have a fear that there are some that would like to just get out of the nursing home business and I think the general public out there says there is room for Sheboygan County to maintain nursing home services and the debate can be over what level but I just think that people are endeared to Rocky and Owl and Sunny Ridge and have been for years and have invested dollars unlike most counties in nursing homes that's true we are a rather unique county one of just a handful that continue to have nursing homes. Well and for example there's actually a charitable foundation set up with both nursing homes that collects donations that people just without even the county or nursing homes asking for donations because they don't but they have a balance of over $56,000 just because people feel charitable toward the institution that took good care of their parents or relatives so well it'll be interesting let's move on to some state issues as we are taping to me one of the most fascinating trials maybe not of the century but at least in the state of Wisconsin is Scott Jensen's trial I think I had made some bold statement during one of our last tapings that there was simply no way that Scott Jensen would actually go to trial and he's now well into the second week of that trial and it is quite amazing two things I want to talk about is as I'm reading there's not much in the Sheboygan press about it but as I'm reading online one I love the theory which is everybody's doing it so what's the problem and number two and I think this is something that just speaks to is a much broader philosophical question is all of these witnesses I believe are saying and I think Jensen's defense theory is you can't separate it you can't separate campaigning from being a legislator they go hand in hand and so to have some artificial demarcation between fundraising and doing the job is just a sheer impossibility Cal, I want your you've done it, I was gonna say you've done it, my first response is that's nonsense but you're the one that actually did it can you separate them? Yes, should you? Yes, you just don't make those phone calls in your office, on a state phone you use a... During normal working hours Right, you do a Democratic Party office phone or you do it from your own home and then you don't involve state employees you don't ask them on their own time it's on their vacation time, on weekends and evenings if they're gonna work for you as as a sort of a private citizen when they're off of work so yeah you can, it's manageable you can do it the contention that this widespread I would say yes it probably is when you start talking about million dollar state senate races you're talking about big bucks you're talking about putting together television buy packages you're talking about doing fancy brochures you're doing a lot of different things that cost a lot of money and it involves a lot of people so the crossing of that line by they using state time state phones maybe going to this business or that business or doing a television buy on state time or during working hours without claiming vacation or personal leave or whatever I'm sure those things have happened in other offices other than the four legislators who have been indicted I mean I don't think that all the ills of the political world today fall down on Fody, Ladwig, Jensen and Kuala I think that's a naive to say that and I think Jensen's attorneys are simply saying yeah my client is not Lily White here but he's just one of four that has been single out and I wouldn't doubt that they're going to lay out the broadness of this with the idea that when a plea bargain does come after the so many weeks of trial that indeed the plea bargain is one of maybe a misdemeanor or something like Ladwig got that he can maintain his office or whatever comes along with being a misdemeanor rather than a felony but I think they're making a point and then maybe the point should be made as we've had a guest in Jay Hecht from Common Clause this is happening on all levels federal, state, when you get big campaign expensive campaigns and shaking down of special interest groups and I think it has to stop because we need reform and maybe we need to continue to expose what's going on in a broader sense rather than say these are the four dirty people and if we can lock them up we've solved all our problems and we haven't Well and the interesting thing about the way the testimony is developing from state Supreme Court Justice David Prosser to anyone that you can think of it's apparently done all the time I read that the Republicans Tom in your blue sweater are furious with Jensen for not only hanging the dirty laundry out but making sure that there's a big enough breeze to flap it so that people can't can't not pay attention to it I've been following it that closely but I kind of agree with what you just what you started with what's the big deal? It's part of politics you get the job done you answer to your constituents you respond to constituents people call you and where does it where's the line? It's really great I mean I was a city councilman I worked at the university here I had to teach classes I'm in my office I get a call from the mayor's office or something or someone I respond to make another call to somebody else and I'm doing city politics but I'm here at the university because the call came in I respond back but I get the job done now if I were kind of a I worked out in the field as a parks person cutting grass or garbage picking up garbage or some other painting and I took time for my job to do politics and not get the painting job done or the grass cut then yeah that's a very clear demarcation you're working on city time on taxpayer time but when politics is what it is you're in the office you respond to you know you get paid to do things but I think the issue here relates to raising money because hat in hand with the fact that you have all these campaign I mean they call them campaign workers although they are paid with our tax money were paid with our tax money what they're buying or what they're selling is influence and access and in exchange for money one of the things that I think we have to realize is that Wisconsin when the Conta Caucus staffs were created both in assembly and the senate they were meant to do research and serve the creation of and the forwarding of public policy studying of bills creating papers, issue papers where what's being done in other states and so it was purely issue and policy oriented now these folks have basically dropped so much of that and when we get into campaign time they're literally out there either knocking on doors or doing the really the campaign stuff and that's where the line has been crossed yeah and I just I'd have to agree with Cal I think that there's a way it's not easy and it would be much nicer to have just a seamless operation which is not only will I get the job done I will ensure that I have the job that I can get done and just kind of do it all in part and parcel but I mean as a taxpayer I don't want to pay for that whether it's and interestingly enough I mean I think Mark Green and Scott Walker are taking are getting chopped here a little bit because they were clearly doing this stuff for their they had they had some issues at least I mean Jensen has pointed fingers toward them as much as anybody else but it Doyle's campaign manager rich judge was a a campaign worker for an assembly person I believe I may have that wrong but it's an equal opportunity a kind of problem it seems to plague the democrats as much as the republicans I mean it's on a national level I mean I think Jack Abramoff probably gave a whole lot more money to the republicans but he certainly had his had his hand out to democrats as well and so I mean I think it is reflective of just how the whole system has developed and for me it's a problem well it's a problem because government the people we elect to office should be there to care about education the environment and many many other issues and not whether people who are on the state payroll are making enough phone calls to reach a million dollars for the next campaign that's completely opposite of what we send these people to Washington or Madison to do well I'm not sure all of you are quite as interested in this trial as I am but any predictions do we have a guilty verdict do we have a plea bargain well if the strategy is to go to the jury and say everybody else is doing it that's a recipe for disaster as a defense lawyer because I think those people who are paying attention to it or the jury that's watching this and they have no choice but to pay attention to it I think you're going to say well then we're more inclined to make an example of you than we are to let to exonerate you because everybody else is doing it I would still think you know I mean we're wrong but I still think they're going to I would agree but we talked off camera a little bit there's still going to be some sort of a plea here near the end because I just think that uh... this gets uglier and uglier as it plays out and it's it's an election year nobody wants this stuff in front of folks uh... it's just asking for trouble on both sides of the aisle nobody wants it it's not only that everybody else is doing it but the more people other people talk about it the more in depth the public sees this whole shenanigan stuff is and I think the more you're saying boy you did all that even though you may not have laid out all these on the other hand you have a prosecutor I'm a prosecutor myself and there are there are decisions that a prosecutor makes that take place in a bigger context which is how will the client react or how will the public react the district attorney is being different than just like the kind of city prosecution that I do but the longer this goes on the more I think it will be difficult for this DA to pull back and plea bargain and misdemeanor I mean this guy has dragged everybody through the mud and it was and it happened just so that he would there would be a plea bargain on a misdemeanor I don't think so and part of the problem is as I understand it if Jensen's convicted of a felony he is out of the legislature and so why he didn't take the plea bargain in the first place I mean you know like we said about Bill Clinton what were you thinking I mean I have to think I mean if I were that prosecutor a plea bargain was the last thing in the world that I'd want to do but well we'll the next time the next time we gather they'll either be a a plea bargain or a verdict just some interesting figures from the big money blog of the Wisconsin democracy campaign just to put in perspective how much money does have to be raised a total of nearly twenty three million dollars was spent on the two thousand two governor's race by candidates and special interest groups triple the eight million dollars spent in the nineteen ninety eight race some doily injection for this year forty yes that's what I've been reading thirty to fifty somewhere in there yeah so doubled with Doyle's record-breaking fundraising and the point of the of the Wisconsin democracy campaign as they pick on poor governor Doyle well poor is not the word he is pretty wealthy the unfortunate governor what's he done wrong this week well as you know i i like governor Doyle but uh... he's out tommy tommy tomson uh... tommy is still the all-time champion money raiser but Doyle is is is gaining on him quickly so far and this was the two parties are competitive there you go when the democrats do it it's you know i remember i remember i remember the uh... some uh... republican senator questioning herald icky's on some matter before the the this before congressional committee in the the senator says mister icky's where did you learn how to do that or what made you think that was right he said senator we're just doing what president reagan did a small point in any event uh... dwellers raised five point nine million dollars for his uh... reelection bid compared to three point two million that tomson raised at the same point in his last campaign so and of course we read in the in the journal sentinel this uh... this sunday about uh... former governor tomson is doing very well in the private sector and seems to be thriving and hasn't ruled out a return to wisconsin for for another race we'll see i'm interested in in the position of rust fine gold not even mentioned in a gallop poll as to the recent gallop poll about who would be most likely to be who would get the most support is uh... as the democratic party candidate in the same article though i read that uh... fine gold really does is the number one choice among internet voters and internet polls and and so far bloggers and bloggers are there are two kinds of internet and there's the republican blog and there's a democrat blog and of course uh... the real rapid uh... rabid uh... democrats like fine gold uh... they don't like this wishy-washy other senators fine gold comes out in supports their positions charlotte yeah and so they get these triangulators you know they know it they know it real well and they love it they feed on that kind of stuff i know you know i've i've talked to some people who have talked to him and then he actually is kind of fine gold is asking people what do you think i should do it maybe is considering a howard dean type of insurgency uh... and if you can avoid rebel yells in the middle of primaries maybe he'll go further than howard dean did but uh... i think he's giving it i think he is giving it a real run because i think there are others are there is a segment of the democratic party that would like the democrats to be democrats yeah i don't think i would call that being rabid i think it would be you know just uh... well trying to be part of the progressive uh... i say i call it rabid for the republicans side you call it right wing uh... religious something or other i don't know but yeah i it's i just think fine gold is a very interesting uh... in fact your wife gave me uh... her copy of the february vogue magazine not necessarily a heavy hitter in terms of politics long article on rust fine gold between makeup tips yeah it's your heart out you wish you had a nice magazine like that but um... it's called general it's called gq we do have a magazine like that you're supposed to shave more for television what can i say but uh... in any event remember fine gold came out of nowhere you know back in ninety two i think was his for the first year he was elected and uh... i for what i'm going to watch it with with great interest molly ivans has a fabulous column uh... both in her in her regular star telegram uh... but also i think printed in the progressive really taking on the democrats for not being democrats and for triangulating themselves to the point that that they don't mean anything to anybody anymore and it was it was a most interesting article and i think fine gold is enough of a renegade on both sides of the fence uh... i mean he he's he's hard to predict or at least so far has been hard to predict and so i think it's uh... no potentially interesting stuff i think he comes out of that race that you cited where he was primary where the other two candidates literally knocked themselves off and then he he walked right into this thing and i think he sees the potential probably on the national level with uh... somebody doing a howard dean yell or something and all of a sudden he being low on the list rises by his own pure image and clear image and stand on certain issues and that he could rise to be a very viable candidate uh... you know on paper he isn't i mean he's from the north he's from a smaller state he's a person who's divorced twice uh... he's got some baggage and as a result you would not do yeah he's doing it on the table right and so he's got baggage that people would say well with the population that controls this country is california texas florida you know arizona some of the other states uh... where's his where's his constituency where's his base uh... a lot of it right now i think is the liberal democrat uh... that was there to push uh... uh... george mcgovern at one time uh... jimmy carter came out of nowhere as well uh... people who saw the these people as good people uh... honest people and but they weren't electable nationally uh... where's i think fine gold is going to have to have a lot of other stars aligned uh... to get into uh... being a strong viable candidate for the presidency don't you think one of the things that we can agree on that just seems to me to be patently clear at local state and national politics is we're looking for leaders we're looking for people who actually seemed to talk and walk and think what they really mean and are willing to put themselves out in some kind of sincere way i mean i i think that's where mccain has legs is that i mean why democrats are willing to consider a carry uh... mccain ticket i mean mccain is a profoundly conservative legislator goodness gracious and yet he seems to have he has the image of credibility leadership which jen which uh... bill clinton had in spite of all his personal problems and his decisions and his love life he uh... was somebody that people respected that could lead the troops uh... he was companies intelligent and i think that's what repop frustrated republicans they couldn't drag down that image that he had is being a good uh... smart individual see i think that plays out in the primaries but i don't think a lot of people really knew how conservative better for worse mccain really really is and was you know and i think there's a there's a there's a sense in the primaries where you're you're really are pulling your base to come in and vote for you especially when you have closed primaries now where you get a candidate but when you get to the general election people really start they will certainly look at personality and leadership in those types of things the pressures to to get to the center and stay the center is artist awfully demanding and i still know yeah how a guy like mccain uh... well like find gold can actually negotiate that transition from if you ever would be getting close to getting close to a nomination you hear a lot about people looking for leadership looking for that person who can bring us all together but yet if you look at the voting patterns uh... people who are concerned about guns and abortion and gays those people they're very rigid in what they vote who they vote for why they vote for that person and i don't see those people changing a great deal but it's a senator too there's a senators don't normally get elected that's very true to president you usually get governors governors get elected uh... reagan carter clinton uh... clinton clinton bush governors get elected but they also have uh... they're in an administrative leadership role more so than a senator and uh... yeah i think it's very difficult to get elected out of the senate i mean historically i don't know why that is necessarily i would trust a senator it seems to me would have a better sense of national issues than governor arkansas or georgia or california most prevailing theory is is that senators have a hard time talking in sound bites they're used to the senate floor where they can bloviate on and on and on and when you get into the campaign where you have to reduce unfortunately you have to reduce complex issues into understand you know there you go again i mean or whatever sound bite you want you want to you want to make famous you know where's the beef senators also are considered politicians and where's governors again or administrators or there's sort of the darling of another level another world almost and i think that's part of if you're a successful governor you can turn and say i have a track record of success i mean what do you do at the senate you say well i voted here four times i voted here six times i got the bill passed and yeah and then you got the inevitable i mean you can look at a governor and see what bills he signed or vetoed but you have senators who are doing procedural votes and then you get the the political lie that goes on in both campaigns he increased your tax of seven hundred fifty five thousand times well because of procedural votes and they're up there tally it's an awfully uh... tough they killed a climb well it just you know in summary is as we wrap up the the state of politics in the state of politicians and such is just uh... not as good as it could be but we'll keep plugging away and uh... thanks for joining us