 You're still watching The Breakfast. We just had a brief discussion on our first topic with regards to the introduction of electric vehicles in Lagos and our guest remains Olarewaju Olaboye, software engineer and coding instructor who is here live with me. And now we're going to our second topic which is the development of web and app development programming in Nigeria. That's actually his specialty. I just dragged him into discussing that electric buses issue with us. Well thank you so much for your time here again. So tell me why did you go into web design and how did you go into it? Okay, well I think the question is I drive it. Why did I go into it? Okay let me put it this way. I see web as web is the gateway to connection. Whatever connection we have on planet Earth right now that makes someone from Nigeria to talk in real time with with someone in the US. It's that connection, the backbone is the web. That's why it's a web because it makes everybody become interconnected kind of. So do I? Personally I have a personal reason for coming into web development. But my own journey in tech majorly started from fixing laptops. So I started from fixing laptops and I remember around 11 years ago when I was learning that my instructor then told me you seem very very sharp. I think you should try your hands on programming on software development. I didn't take it so serious. So 2013 I was in university. I tried. It didn't work out because I was studying for economics. Then 2015 I decided oh and at that point I already have my grades were already set. I was already on the first class and I'm like okay it seems this is the right time and I was getting involved in a lot of social entrepreneurship programs going for a lot of conferences, leadership trainings all around Nigeria and some outside back then. So I then decided and I saw a lot of things amazing things many people are doing in that sector. I think around 2014, 2015, 2016 was when a lot of tech inclined platform started springing up. How would you describe that industry in Nigeria today? I would describe it as growing. I'll use the word growing. There are many things still not going so well and of course there are many things going well you understand and all these are on a lot of factors. So I went into the why shortly is because I wanted to build a particular idea I have on social entrepreneurship. So that was why I fully went into coding in learning to code for web in 2015. But so here we are today. So that is the why. The how was I first tried to reach out to different people. You know I told you I go for all these trainings around so I met I've met some guys that were already into programming or where computer science major students in school. So I already started talking to them. So some of them were recommending courses for me online. So I actually started by using online courses. I'm talking about the software industry because describe the situation of the software industry in the country. Yeah I think the thing is that I know that our youth tech savvy. Yeah I think it's I think it's a big deal. You know for instance you remember back in the days like for instance when I just got into secondary school you have to enter long queues to pay your your school fee. You know a lot of things we have to do by having to go through the manual process and here we are today. This sector that we have so for instance FinTech is still our FinTech in Nigeria. We still have some things in Nigeria that even some advanced countries still don't have in their financial sector like the real-time ability for me to send money to you and you get value immediately and you don't have to wait for settlements because of the idea of switch that our banks have come together to to put together and so in terms of the tech space in Nigeria it has I think it's a space that has really brought a lot of ease has really pushed us outside forward rather even much more than some advanced countries. Do we export software packages? Do we export software packages? I think that is that is a dicey question to answer but the answer is yes. So the reason is we've we've had or we have startups that actually build softwares for for other companies to use. So you have people like Zoo that are trying to create maybe let me say some there are some kind of toned down versions of Microsoft packages you understand and they're trying to offer them both within an outside Nigeria so they are not the only one there are many other guys that are trying to build so for instance you see Ijumya Ijumya has tried to open their platform to many other African countries and they've even tried to get themselves listed on the New York Stock Exchange I don't know how I'm not sure how good they are fearing right now but I know they did so all those kind of steps they are steps in the right direction so I believe Nigeria of course they are they are they are products from and even many companies out there like outside of Nigeria if you look at their core technical guys most of them are with an African or Nigerian background so even when the so that's why I said the question is dicey Nigerian brains are of course building softwares that are being used all over the world no doubt about that but yeah those knowledge as a company being owned or being patented by Nigerian owned companies then that is an entirely new conversation because a lot of people will even tell you most guys that that are getting funding are eventually losing out on their company yeah they are losing out because they are selling their shares out to all these guys that are raising funds you know those people are not giving them those funds for charity yeah so they are partially dissolving their own stake their own ownership in those companies so that means over time it might eventually not be a Nigerian company in the end by the time you get a lot of funding and maybe they found out eventually say I'm selling out this guy we saw we saw that with paystack they sold out to Stripe you understand so to that narrative have changed if there were probably better support from the federal government they have enough support I don't specifically want to say it's only the government so I try to look at it this way so I as a person I look at so for instance you look at the America as a oh most of their big billionaires what are the sectors they are putting their money into but look at us in Africa most of our big guys they are still doing the buying and selling businesses they're not looking at let's do a business of scalability virtually not entirely a physical scalability kind of stuff so so when you have people that that is their own orientation of how their business should work and to an extent it works for them because they are having a considerable amount of success doing that so I feel the so how are the big billionaires are they keen into these ideas into investing into these companies that is what I will be asking because the government the government is there but the top doesn't always stay forever so so having the government to manage some things sustainably over a long period of time I don't think any government of the world has really proven itself so good to that extent but have we from what you can you're saying we've still not been able to tap into the software industry in the country yeah I feel I feel the the the rich guys in the private the privately rich guys the big guys are not really I don't think they are really pushing their funds into those things as much as they should because I think they will because for instance if they if they put money into these guys they already know the landscape of the African or the Nigerian system how the Nigerians think how they how they approach when what are the conditions under which they actually bring out their money to pay for something so they have those knowledge and these other guys they have the idea of what is the new way to sell to these people you understand so so I think I would take that as a bigger force than a public sector slash those because there is also something over time if you try to do that it might breed cronism so because it might be a case of my own company only gets contracts because my own person is the one in power so it doesn't really matter how good I do my stops so even if I don't do it well the government will make people to patronize me so I think we should look we should we should pinch the private sector guys that the rich guys billionaires in the private in the private sector to invest they should be the one we should really be pushing they do not seem to see that viability to invest especially as we're looking at diversifying the economy well I try not to assume one thing I try not to assume that they don't know I don't I try not to ask the one then is the problem yeah I don't know I think it might just be personal decision you know so for instance if you if you if you have something and so for instance now look at the banks they they have avenue through which they can keep money with the bank with the central bank overnight and they end some interest even though not as much usually on it so you know at times the the cbn2 will be like I'm not sure I want these guys to be keeping the money I want them to be actually sending out this money you know if it's easy to get some to get some profits from not doing so much from not taking so much risk and you are so sure you get back your fund you might just want to do that instead of trying to go into because one thing you just can't take out of it is even though they are prospect is still a high-risk business doing all these tech inclined businesses in in Nigeria because even at times you wonder how many people actually pay for some of these apps because you know someone like a CUDA came years back they do free free transaction charges you know what came to my mind is somebody actually pays for it you know I studied economics no free lunch not even in a free town so it means so but I understand why they might be doing that so for instance if I'm a CUDA I might be thinking or if I'm a business person I might be thinking instead of me spending 25 naira advertising targeting someone all around to come and use my hub why don't I say that transaction is free and I pay the 25 naira within my own application because what does that do for me that makes my revenue to stay within me so it makes me to also realize more revenue within me instead of realizing expenses you know I'll still I'll still spend that money I'll still spend that 25 naira that I'm paying or the 15 naira I'm paying as your transaction charges that I'm paying on your behalf but I might be thinking it's better for me to have that as part of my own numbers my own balance sheet instead of paying it to a facebook or to an instagram in order to target users to now download my hub and they might not want to download when they see that they still have to pay this transaction charge and it's so over time they have to back down you know so when you talk about those kind of plans with the private sector guys you might be thinking why do I need to wait for a long time for me to invest in your CUDA in your small microfinance fintech businesses in your small agritek business and I could just be running within my space and over that time I'll still make I'll still have made more more returns on my money you know everybody we are hauled out for for our own good it's not to our anybody's benefit lens that we do help to to one another except maybe we are family members do all right let's talk about coding you are a coding instructor it's not been long we heard we started hearing coding coding coding um tell us what can you tell us about coding and how it's been received okay well I'll just put it this way in a simple term it's just you learning or knowing how to give instructions to computers not not really truly so so there are two ways to look at your computer that you have out there there's the GUI which is the graphic UI which is the the sites you and I can see you know where we take our mouse around click things so those are the GUI instructions we are given so there can also be command-based instructions that you can give to the computer so writing code make you to give those command-based instructions not really through the GUI so so coding is basically how you write in a language that the computer understands and give it instructions on what to do okay so children are being targeted for this in schools especially during holidays have you in any way synergized with schools as an instructor and are you seeing schools embracing it and doing what they should do to catch them young yeah I think so I must comment some parents and I must comment some schools some schools are trying to bring in at least even if it is some element of basic coding because the thing is this like I said it's you writing instruction for the computers so it's more about you knowing how the computers think or how the computer should think and giving it the right instruction you understand so there are schools that are trying to teach just basic computer logics building their own small computer laboratories and advising students to come there during their leisure to to use those infrastructures so I must comment and some students some parents are actually enrolling their children to learn I have so because I run a tech training school a tech academy and I also train people mentor people virtually and I've trained people from many countries in the world so I must comment the parents so some people are actually doing it I've seen parents that will be like oh this my son he just completed his wirek I want him to I want him to enroll with you and a lot of them they are doing fine they they even you know there's even there's even always a new way to look at these things because when you train someone new at times they they are just kind of more agile than you have so their own ability to to to find so for instance I came in here today with one of my staffs that work with me I actually trained him it was technically my first student I trained him five years ago when I was in service in NYC service so and today he knows some things I don't even know so even though I am meant to be the more experienced guy so so it it is like that and as a as a tech training school at my own training school Pantera Tech School we're trying to we're already shortlisting some schools here in Lagos that we're looking at collaborating with over the summer holiday so we can give a basic introduction to technology skill to the to the students we are trying to focus majorly on the JS3 and the SS3 guys because we know they tend to have longer time to to learn stuff so we're looking at teaching them around basic graphic design basics of product design and basics of web design so we believe those are things you can still at least have an idea of within a month and you never can tell because even for this particular guy I mentioned I I just trained him like to the basics and I left I left and like a year or two later he reached out to me he's been working as a software engineer as a result of what I did to him two years ago so he reached out to me in I think 2020 and I'm like oh wow and that was how we we started talking back before he started working with me all right I also noticed that children in primary and elementary school I mean primary schools and yeah primary school students are pupils have also been taught or are being taught is that a way to go yeah I think it's it's the way to go so for instance when you go online and you you see you see all these young kids from from India from China from US they'll tell you they've been coding since they were hate so the thing is for the young guys that are coding it's even better because they are not trying to get into coding in order to put food on their table they're going in there to to learn the deep knowledge to yeah the passion yeah so so they get the deep knowledge they get the build up they build up what I tend to think so for instance I don't see programming as you trying to know all the codes all the syntax on top of your head I think it's more around knowing how to think clearly about what you want to do so those kind of people they started their youthful years putting their minds towards thinking clearly about building stuff so over time by the time they are 14 they are ready gurus a 25 year old that is trying to learn before you could catch up with them you will have to learn for another five seven years so so I think that is the better way to go because it just makes you ahead of your time because by the time you are 15 you started coding from from eight by the time you are 15 you could even know more than five programming languages already more than 10 programming languages already because you've had a lot of time and there was no pressure to to build one big facebook application for a client or something I think it's it's a really good step in the right direction yeah we've come to realize that children especially in China and Korea and Japan you find children inventing things phones laptops and all of that but that doesn't seem to be the case here in Nigeria what would you attribute to attribute that to well Nigeria and Nigeria and Africa is is is daisy so let's look at it this from here so let's even look at um our language for a start so how many so I've met people that I think they are smart people like and I'm sure you would have to like they might not be they might some of them might not even be educated like the formal education but I believe your intelligence at times is about how you think so I think Africa as a whole how but people are coming back now people are realizing that knowledge is more than just knowing how to speak good English at times so you look at how much of our curriculum is even being taught in our own native language so you look at those guys they they wake up so for instance I've trained people from China and some of them you've trained people from China yeah true true virtual platforms I've helped them with their with their with their work task when they when they get on them and people people from people from US from from UK from other from many from all over the places so let me come back to to what I was saying so you look at you look at them they they tend to conceptualize all these things in their own language so so it's it's easier for them but I think it's a first problem for an African child because even if you have some things you have in your mind for you to even easily communicate it to yourself inside of yourself it's like a problem because most of our curriculum you first have to learn English and even look at many big books best-selling books they convert they translate them to other languages but really we you see an African uh what's he called saying okay I'm trying to convert uh a book on physics I'm trying to convert it into Yoruba I'm trying to teach people my physics in Yoruba you know I think that is language barrier I think there is that language barrier we might not be saying it but it is there because how you even how you pray if let if you look at the angle of religion to pray in your first language itself it's easier than for you to so for instance our friends they might be struggling with English I'll tell them if you really want to speak better I think to start thinking in English it as easy as that because when you still try to think in your own look at it it it's an issue on its own so I see the language there as a problem for why it's other for people to really and secondly I'll talk more I'll also try to say infrastructure more infrastructure and I think the average exposure so the average exposure of most maybe is because of the economic level that we operate in is we operate on survival most times so when you're trying to operate on survival sitting down to conceptualize ideas and put them together is tougher so you know there are even some children that we're trying to play with things they're going to be like no we should tell us a assignment master sorry for speaking in Yoruba no don't be sorry it is we shouldn't be sorry so that's how they'll talk so they'll they'll tend to see anything that is not like that planned academic routes as not something productive it is until recent time that even some parents are realizing that even running can be a big deal if you give the children the right training even playing football you know how many people their parents beat the hell out of them because they were trying to play football so I think all those things it's not only in tech it's just our general attitude to this thing all those things and we so we don't try to create an enabling environment when people are trying to do some of these good things and we also probably need to do something about the curricula yeah yeah I believe yeah but I don't but I don't want to talk too much about the curriculum the academic sector curriculum because one thing is you know academic sector curriculum one thing is it's a profit-first system whether you take it or not and so far the government is not doing is not doing their own properly and many people have to go the private sector way it's going to be profit-first so they will have to do the bm minimum so you can't expect that you really get a really good coding um knowledge so parents will have to take so yeah so even the individual the individual the students the children themselves they have to so I think that's where the exposure comes in leaving them to to move around within the good realm of trying to fix things in the house do things out of yeah out of the out of the norm yeah yeah and just so over time when the interest build even you don't have to run after them too so for instance when I fall sick when I was serving my boss when I fell sick back then he still came to tease me on my sick bed that should I bring your system do you still want to write some code and I'm like yes boss it was just laughing at me you know it's it's just the passion to want so at that point when you can take them to guide them to that level you don't even have to do anything so I know of a guy that is length coding before he he got into the university when he was in the university he's already a senior engineer now like myself um he practically paid his school fee all through from the work he has built house for his own parents like for himself that his parents now live in you know just because they gave him that that early was he called yeah and yeah and he's still less than 25 in nigerian guy that I know you understand he's still less than 25 maybe he'll be 25 this year or next year so so that is that is the thing when when you create the enabling environment well of course the government too can help because when it comes to the curriculum if you really want to get all these schools the government is the one that can really do it that's the standard tell the ministry of education we want the schools to put so so standard a a x amount of the time in school spent in school has to be used to I see why city should be reject to include all of these things and make mandatory yeah I think I think from that perspective the government can really help us but a lot now lies on the parents I think the parents the parents have to guide their children right you cannot expect because the schools is they are they are meant for profit take it or you leave it so they will only do the bare minimum except for the public schools all right thank you so much a larry watch you or la boye software engineer and coding instructor it's been very very exciting just listen to you and learning so much more about coding and the software industry thank you so much you're still watching the program the breakfast we'll take a break to come back with sport news