 It is my honor, pleasure, and duty to begin this new season of Difficult Dialogues. Dr. Demetri Arujo Shabazz, thank you for joining us for another installment of Difficult Dialogues. This is our third Difficult Dialogues focused on the theme of reparations. And we are delighted to have someone that we've known since our University of Alabama days, Reverend Robert Turner. And he is fighting the great fight there in Tulsa to work on reparations for the folks of the descendants of Greenwood in Tulsa, Oklahoma. So I will be here if need be, but I'll let the other Dr. Shabazz take it away, and thanks for everyone joining us today. Well, very good. And thank you so much. We are very happy to launch another installment in this series of our Difficult Dialogues. Difficult Dialogues have been around for a number of years now, but we beginning this summer in the wake of a lot of things that were that happened in the world from COVID to the murders of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and just so many things. And actually in the publication of From Here to Equality by William Darity Jr. and Kirsten Mullen just led us to really spotlight a series of difficult dialogues on the question of reparations. In fact, just really taking that as our focus, inspired by our guest today, inspired by Reverend Robert Turner. He has been waging a fierce witnessing and struggle in Tulsa, Oklahoma, particularly every Wednesday going out, rain, sleep, snow, whatever. Snow in Oklahoma, but no matter what he is out there. He is out in front of the city hall, raising the cry of reparations, drumming, being that drum major for the movement for reparations, which in Tulsa, Oklahoma has a very special, particular resonance beyond the general cry of reparations for people of African descent. African descendants of slavery in the United States. And Tulsa has a very special claim for reparations, going back to an incident that occurred almost 100 years ago. And the centennial of this massacre of this event is coming up next year. And we are blessed to have Reverend Robert Turner on the ground, pastor of historic Vernon AME church, which is a part of the Greenwood community. We say was ground zero in 1921 of the conflagration of what happened there. And, you know, the language around this that I'm groping for is a story in and of itself. First of all, after 1921, the actual knowledge of the events there, or were almost effectively silenced just erased from history, you would not see it in any Oklahoma history textbooks, you wouldn't see it in any American history textbooks. You wouldn't even see it in the venerable work of Dr. John Hope Franklin from slavery to freedom when his first African American history came out. You know, and given the fact that he himself was a victim. He was a child then, and his father was an attorney in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and their law offices was completely burnt out. Dr. Franklin wasn't living there he was living nearby in a little all black community all black town of Redbud, but are might be getting that would mixed up with another town but he lived in an all black town away from the tragedy of Tulsa of the Greenwood community, but his father and their practice was wiped out. And yet, even there there was a there was a hush there was a pall of silence. And so this thing has been has been covered up has been forgotten for decades and decades, but it has begun to be brought back up. It has begun to be. In fact, our beloved attorney brother here in Massachusetts former law professor at Harvard Law School, Charles Ogletree, my DNI colleague when we were at the University of Alabama and Reverend Turner's another professor on the campus then Al Brophy wrote a book on the dream land and on the on what happened there. So things started changing going into the 90s people started pushing in the word of this, and then with the help of Ogletree a lawsuit was launched but you had to get the state government to open the statute of limitations to allow itself to be sued by the by the living survivors, they were living survivors, and yet they could not get anything for the damages and for what they they had endured, or even a recognition So but over time things have changed deep DNI and our family we live there in the early part of 2000 just prior to moving here to the valley and and so it has been quite an effort over the years to see the struggle for for the recognition of what to place almost 100 years ago. Interestingly enough, one other thing and I want to hit our guest, but the actual rebuilding and the rebounding of the Greenwood community of the black community of Tulsa was was almost immediate things we people picked up their lives they began to rebuild and that whole area was growing and became prosperous again, but it was actually in in the 60s and with the interstate highway system and so called urban renewal that ran a highway through the community that really put the death knell into the Greenwood community and really hurt the black the black Wall Street that had rebuilt after 1921 over the decades Vernon AME has rebuilt and they preserve the the the hollowed ground of of of what survived after the bombardment and the destruction. But with all, all of that I want to bring forth our very very special and dear friend colleague comrade and struggle, Reverend Robert Turner Dr. and Dr. Shabazz, I am elated to be here this evening afternoon with you and your lovely wife. I would be remiss if I did not say to the Amherst community, just how blessed they are to have the two of you. They are so incredibly Amherst, Massachusetts, New England, you are blessed to have this man and woman in your midst. They are legend icon and Dr. Shabazz both of them didn't just start even at the University of Alabama before I was a Reverend before I was a doctor before I was a pastor before these two individuals open up their home. I was just a student activist protesting against racism at the University of Alabama. And these two individuals found for the members right could have been putting their jobs gave me counsel to this day. I love the two of you and that means so much to me. In fact, I started using the word comrade from you, like I still call my friends in the struggle. I don't call them friends. I don't call them acquaintances. I don't call them colleagues but battle that we're waging a revolution for liberation and transformation. And so I can't say how much you all mean to me because it's easy now for people, you know, they see you on 60 minutes, they see you on MSNBC, they see you on CNN and all these other places for them to, you know, want to be amenable to you. But you all were amenable to a freshman, 18 year old, 19 year old throughout my whole college career. And you, you are the still the same. Right. And so very few people know me today as just Robert, you know, before anything, and you all do. And so I'm so thankful to be on this a part of this dialogue. As difficult as it is, you all make it sweet to talk about because of the fun that I have. So I forgot your question, but I just want to start off with. So brother, no, we're we're here together. I'm when did you arrive in Tulsa because we were there 2005 to 2007. And I'll tell you those were those were two very good years for us what I think made it so very special was getting to know the Greenwood community and the and the larger community there in in Tulsa. People don't may not know about Tulsa, but it sometimes is in the shadow of the capital city of Oklahoma City, but it has a very interesting history. It has a great tradition of philanthropic corporate and individual philanthropic activity. Great fortunes emerged in the early 1900s with the discovery of oil and the development of the oil petrochemical industries. Other kinds of fortunes were grew up in the area. And, and so the city really blossomed jazz had a jazz music jazz culture grew very strongly there there's a jazz Hall of Fame in Oklahoma. There's annual celebrations of Juneteenth there. We've just found a very strong and vibrant community. Also, I tell people here, because on Martin Luther King Day, our little activities here in the valley are often just so pitiful. Now, partly that's because of the snow is so heavy, but oftentimes but in Tulsa, I would tell folks, man, it would take a lot of Luther King Day was a big event, you'd have huge parades and I can remember marching in the parade going right past in your your church going to one of Vernon AME we'd march right there marching bands from all the, all the high schools and middle schools and, and just community organizations and I mean it was huge the way it would turn out and now the university that I was working for at the time Oklahoma State University has in it has a branch campus that's in the Greenwood community that's right next door to the Greenwood Cultural Center. So it was really a vibrant experience becoming a part of the Tulsa community. It wasn't very long we're only there for two years, but I remember then meeting one of the oldest living survivors of the 1921. I remember then that there were there was of course struggles, the desegregation of the schools they created two major magnet schools George Washington Carver middle and Booker T Washington high. Our son was at the time at Carver middle and was slated to go to Booker T high which had a, which both schools had a impressive academics and great academic reputation. But it was part of attempting to the school desegregation efforts that was still quite quite quite a challenge. Of course poverty poverty poverty was a deep issue so when I see the way you're feeding people the way historic Vernon AME church is feeding people. Hot meals and groceries now I'm so I'm just so moved by by the way you're responding to the needs and the way you've stepped in but why don't you just talk to us about when you've got to Tulsa and what what your experiences like and what's how how you're being guided and moved to do what you do. I first came to Tulsa, Oklahoma, August 26, 2000. And I came here to a church. I came here to pastor church. And that church was historic Vernon and me. I didn't know at the time where I was going. I was just informed by the Bishop that I needed to be prepared to pastor church that needed someone of my skill set. That same night when I got the call from the Bishop by going. I prayed to God because I kind of had a feeling of needing knowing it was something about changing my life. You know, I don't know what it is, but I just want you to know that I say yes to your will. And as soon as I got off my knees. And I see I have a text message from the Bishop asking me about coming to this district and that was like definitely one of those moments where you know it's greater than you. And so when I came to Tulsa, I realized that we are in a place that is very historic. But a lot of people didn't know about the store. Most of my members of the church didn't know that the very place where we were so when I did a well so when I first came I did a tour of the church. And when I saw the cornerstone because you're a historian. And I just love history. A lot of people don't know that the history of that particular church is nine times out of 10 listed on the cornerstone that was laid by the founders and on the church's cornerstone. It has basement built 1919. The sanctuary 1925. And when I told the trustee that was taking me around the church, I said, when they say basement built 1919. I say where is that basement. And he said it's right there. I said, and it's still here right it's the same one. It was like, yeah, same base when we had 1919. I said so do you do you understand what that means. He was like, what do you mean I said, that means that something survived. We have something that survived the massacre. And he was like, yeah, we, we have it. I said no, it's something that survived. And that from that moment, and I'm switching over to my left to my laptop to my cell phone, trying to from that moment. And it gave a sense of hope and and ration for our community to let people know that we have something left from Black Wall Street. We have this huge place called Vernon in the midst of total despair. I'm going to remind us again to brother Robert when you reconnect Reverend Turner, the exact year did anyone else here at my my sound had glitched out a little bit that anyone else here. What year he said was a 2016. Come on in Robert. Are you there Robert. Yes, I'm sorry I pressed the wrong button. Not a problem remind us of the year was a 2016 you got there. 2017 2017, thank you, 2017 when I first came to Tulsa. And it was a year of a year after Terrence Crutch was killed by the police. It was a year that people were still upset that black men were still being killed by police and nothing being done. And once I got to Tulsa, I really felt a sense of duty to the members not just the current members but the members of yesteryear the ancestors that were here that were killed, and whose blood still stains the streets. I felt a sense of duty and obligation. And every time I, even now when I drive up and go to the church, which is every day. I feel their cries, you know, and it reminds me of a book of Genesis that talks about when came killed able and how the blood of able cries out to God from the ground. And, and there's an old Hebrew philosophy that says unjustified blood in the shedding of unjustified blood stains and curses the land. Right and it continues to be that way until something is done to a tone for and I really feel like that that blood has been a stain, you know, in that Greenwood is not what the mayor in the city and really pretty much white Tulsa is trying to make it out to be a tourist site. First and foremost, and so from that, from that awareness, I began to speak out about the need to excavate the bodies where the bodies were done, excavate the mass graves where the bodies were done, and to be a voice for those that can't speak for themselves but to me that cries out to God and if it offends God, if it offends the created offends me and just speaking up and that gives me the passion that I have every Wednesday. So like the first time I went to city hall. It was no one there with me physically but my bullhorn and Bible. But I knew God was with me. I knew and I felt the presence of the ancestors and that cloud of witnesses surrounding me. And so I go, I go rain, sleep, hail, snow, and we do have snow sometimes just to let the world know. And it's not even about me not once have I ever mentioned my name while I was out there, not once I described myself as gender Baptist does in the hospitals as the voice of one crying out in the wilderness. And, and, and that's just because who I am is not important, but the people that I'm commissioned to speak for, you know, are, and just to let the city know in the tradition of, you know, Old Testament prophets, you know, standing at the city gates, you know, letting the powers that be know the tragedy that occurred in this place that has yet to be at home for the father of Cornel West. Wasn't he a pastor then Tulsa to he was, he was, of course, he was before me, but he was a Baptist church right over in the Baptist church. I don't know the name of him, but I have heard and I have not had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Cornel West, but I have been told that he's from Tulsa and that he is very, very knowledgeable about this issue. I'm going to reach out to him and tell him whenever he gets down that way he needs to find that John the Baptist crying out in the wilderness and go and lay hands on your brother and pray with you. And I know he will, he will respond. He's my good brother. I love him dearly and I know he will respond and want to know that someone is carrying on in that in that tradition of John the Baptist. I want to talk a bit about the, the centennial that's coming up. As I've said before, people may think that it's, it's a huge deal in Tulsa. It's, it's been a, it's become a huge thing, because of people working and to making it happen there's a lot of trouble writing his books and the people at the Greenwood Community Center doing cultural center doing their work people have, have pushed to make it make great give it greater awareness, but how are folks preparing for the centennial to be proud that our US Senator Elizabeth Warren is put forward the bill in the Senate Senate to have a federal government recognize this centennial observance. Can you update us. And I know she came down and stood with you. Tell us about that visit tell us about the centennial and where things are. Massachusetts is blessed to have Elizabeth Warren as your champion in the United States Senate she's not just a senator she is a champion for all things progressive, especially as it relates to consumer defense and and making sure that we're not exploited by these corporations, and she has really impressed me on her stance on racial equity. I had the privilege of meeting her. When she came in Tulsa, not even for a political campaign stop she when I met with her. She told me she wanted to just learn right so she met with Hannibal Johnson, she met myself, and she wanted to learn more about what happened here in Tulsa. And she wanted to go to ground zero she wanted to go to the last thing standing, which is the basement of our church. And so she went and she wanted she asked me to pray for her. And I did and since then, we have engaged in a true cordial relationship where she's reached out to me to let me know if I needed anything. She's more than happy to assist and all she can do in the United States Senate. And then, when one of my friends told me from the Human Rights Watch about the resolution that she authored, I said I'm really not surprised because she was like a sponge. When she came to Tulsa, just soaking up all the knowledge and she actually is from Oklahoma. So the story is, is special to her right this is personal for her. And I hope that the Senate gets beyond politics to my understanding there are some folks who upset that she wrote it being from Massachusetts being the senator from Massachusetts. But she still is from Oklahoma, like I'm in Oklahoma now, but I'm from Alabama. So guess what, I'm always going to talk about issues from Alabama, you know, just because you leave your home state doesn't divorce you from still being concerned about it. Right. And so I don't think anything is wrong with her author in that. And I know the makeup of the Senate right now makes that resolution somewhat difficult to pass. But as we get closer to the Centennial. It's going to be hard to be against her resolution. As we get close as we get closer to the Centennial. It is baffling Dr. Shabazz to see how many people now are becoming so called woke, right, as it relates to the race massacre. And how many people now are claiming that they've been knowing them body for so long, nobody just nobody will listen to them and it's, it's really sad to see how the very people that caused the massacre and that were complicit during the massacre are now seeking to profit from the massacre. And that that is sick to me, and I don't miss words of the city of Tulsa for one that was complicit and outright in the sheriff's department outright calls did by deputize members of the white mob and the city, allowed it to happen. The fire department didn't put out one fire the police department didn't investigate or arrest. Now one of those white perpetrators, but now the city of Tulsa is the largest landowner in the Greenwood community. Like, they own all the land around burning every church they own the Greenwood culture. They own the land will always you use that mean, and it's so bad that developers now go to the city to get land to develop downtown in Greenwood. And so their profit to handle with this and now with this in 10 year coming up, they're marketing it as some, you know, big tourist site destination. But when in fact it still is a crime scene. In fact, the only thing in Greenwood that's in its original location are two churches, then it's still on my black people. It's historic Vernon and it's stored Mount Zion and the only building that is still there in its original spot is the basement of our church. Right. And so but you don't hear people talk about that. Because if people come to visit Vernon, you know, that's not giving dollars to the city, you know, that's not giving dollars to private white kids. And they're going to get a real education too. And they're going to get a real education. That's right. So you won't see Vernon on any of the, you know, main brochures. Because we don't fit the image that are in message that they're trying to portray and that's that's to me say and that's why you know the current situation of Vernon without capital building and needing to be restored. That's why it's in the shape is in right because the city in 2002 tried to buy Vernon because they knew the history. And we didn't just say no, because of the offer they offer. We didn't just say no we say hell no, because it was so insulting. And since then they have not sought to help in anyway. And to this day, it's like they want it to come. But thanks be to God we've got some we're getting support I've been writing grants, but we still need a whole lot more. And even though and even though our capital campaign is underway. We still are feeding right like you said we are using this vessel this space that is crumbling by the minute every time the rain hits every time a wind blows something falls off our church. But we're still using the same building to have not been the only place in Tulsa open every day since COVID-19 sheltering place feeding over 155,000 meals. I think God we're not a mega church at all. I wish we had 150 members, you know, but we have the few faithful members we have. Most of which are senior citizens who remember the greatness of Greenwood and the ancestors of Greenwood, and they're refusing to allow, you know, the demise on their watch. And so I'm humbled to pass to such a remarkable people with the rich legacy. I want you to take a moment to collect. I know you were just getting in. I'm going to share screen now and just play a short video for folks and then we'll come back and I want us to to drill down a little bit specifically on on reparations what it could mean for Tulsa, what it could mean and should mean for the United States of America and African Americans. But let's let's watch this little video for context. We generally call it the catastrophe because we feel like it wasn't a riot. We didn't. We were not perpetrators. We were the victims. But it took 80 years to get the state of Oklahoma to acknowledge that. The Tulsa Race Massacre is believed to be one of the worst incidents of racial violence in American history. From May 31st to June 1st in 1921, as many as 300 people were killed, hundreds were injured and thousands of buildings were destroyed. On June 1st, they began to systematically destroy neighborhoods and they had airplanes dropping things down on people's houses and they had made up their minds to clear the entire area of black people. It started after a newspaper reported a black man tried to sexually assault a white woman, though it's still uncertain what exactly happened. Many did not believe that story. The Oklahoma Historical Society said the most common explanation is Dick Rowland stepped on Sarah Page's foot when he entered the elevator, causing her to scream. A group of armed black men went to the courthouse to offer help protecting Rowland once they heard talks of lynching. A crowd of white men was also on the scene. A shot was fired and the riots began. My parents were very distressed because here they are with five kids and the schools had been. I went to Dunbar School and that was reduced to just rubble. I mean they blew it up. Crowds of white rioters went to the Greenwood district known as Black Wall Street. It was home to an affluent African American community with banks, hotels, theaters and new homes. They took my eight-year-old brother to where they were holding all the black men and we didn't know because we lived on one side of town and they lived on the other. We thought they were locking up the non-blacks too but it so happened that it didn't occur that way. What they did was to disarm and lock up all black men and then they said to the mob, there's nothing out there now but women and children so you can do whatever you want to do. And that was when the real terrible things started to happen. It ended when the city was placed under martial law and National Guard troops were deployed but Black Wall Street was devastated. Survivors never received compensation for what they lost. That's just a little piece that tries to give a little concise introduction to what's going on there. I love the clip of our dear sister there, Dr. Hooker, but let's kind of pick up. I've gotten a few cues of some things that B wants us to also talk about. So before the time of reparations, let's first connect on Black Lives Matter. We talked already about the Terence Crusher, the shooting of Terence Crusher and you're coming in around the time of that case. We also have other things that have happened since then. I believe you all had a street that was painted Black Lives Matter and that's been a bit of a source of contention. And D and I are going tomorrow to Springfield. There's been an effort to try to preserve a mural of Black Lives Matter thing downtown in Springfield that they've been coming out against to eliminate. But we're trying to argue for the value of that. Kind of update us on what's happening there. First of all, Queen Mother Olivia Hooker, who was a member of Vernon, and her father on Hooker's upholstery was run out of town during the massacre. Those were members that we lost and never saw again. And we dearly miss her. In fact, I preached a eulogy memorial service for her after she passed this most recently, I think last year. So, but to update you on where things are, we have this Black Lives Matter mural that was placed on Greenwood. Right after, right during the time when Donald Trump announced he was coming to Tulsa, right at the time on Juneteenth, which was very disgusting. I went on the news and I spoke against it. Then later he changed the date to the Saturday. But still the weekend. And so people painted this Black Lives Matter mural, actually led by this white young lady who I've now had the pleasure of meeting. And that mural has caused, first of all, nobody said anything about it when it was done. But after the fact, we were actually realized, okay, we got up so we got something on the street that says Black Lives Matter. And people are being upset about not our people, but you know, white folks being upset about the FOP came out against it. The head of the Republican Party came out against it. There's some argument about what if we want to put Blue Lives Matter on the street? How they feel about that? First of all, I don't know how in the world people are starting to equate my identity with an occupation. Nobody is born blue. That's an occupation. So to equate my identity to your occupation that you can leave tomorrow shows just how little you value my identity. So that's one flank of that argument that I used to counter what if we want to put Blue Lives Matter on? There are no blue lives, right? There are people who have jobs where blue uniforms. But there are people who have Black Lives because we're Black. You know, so anyway, the people in the mayor, you know, he's been a coward hiding behind folks who are using those weak arguments. And now he's saying, well, at first he said, well, you know, I've got complaints from people in the Black community, right? And then the folks who he said complained came out and said we hadn't complained about anything. So he was not being honest. And then that's when he said, you know, because I said, well, who was saying this? Just say it. Just don't have how people say who's telling you who they got a problem with. Then it turns out this is the head of the Republican Party and it's blue and the FOP. And then the city council voted. And he said, I'm gonna leave it up to the city council. And we know the city council majority white voted to take it down. But they use the excuse because they got to repay the street. Now, if you look at that street, it's not in that much need of repaid, right? I can show them some streets in the Black community that greatly need to be repaid. But they want to choose to move. Now, they were scheduled to repave the street, but it was supposed to be done like in March. They're scheduled to move it up October. Why the rush? Because of these yellow letters. But what I told people jokingly is that I see how if you're in the Black community and you want to get your streets repaid, just paint the words Black Lives Matter on them and the city will start repaving your streets. It's just, it's sad and sickening that we're, that Tulsa would be one of, I think only two cities that has ever removed Black Lives Matter. And we'll be the largest city in the country because that other city is a small, very small community. But Tulsa will be notorious for yet again, something that's adverse to race relations. And they don't seem to care. They don't seem to care. But in that picture that your screen shows now, you see the little half of a block that they're trying to reduce Greenwood. Greenwood District, Black Wall Street was 36 blocks, city blocks. And now all of that has been gentrified and they reduce that because other people are taking portions of Greenwood. And now it's pretty much reduced to that little half of a block, which is sad, which is so sad. And they don't even want us to have the words Black Lives Matter on that block. You know, and even that block that they're showing is not even owned by Black people. It's owned by the Greenwood Chamber LLC that has a board. And if the board is not majority white, it's very close to it. So it is really sad the current state of affairs in Greenwood. Now, Robert, that highway there, I forget the number of it. 244. What's it called again? 244. 244. That if you continue going down the right from where matter is and keep going, that takes you to historic Vernon doesn't it? That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Right after 244. That's right. And then OSU is back there too. That's right. You know it. You know it well. And so they put that interstate highway through the heart of Greenwood. And that did it. and that killed it. And that depressed property value. So when urban renewal came, we call it urban removal. People were selling their properties pennies on the dollar. And also if you look behind in the far north corner of the screen that's on the page right now, that's the baseball field. Further gentrification. We didn't ask for a baseball field, but they put that baseball field in the heart of Greenwood. And guess who owns it? The city. You know, the city is the largest landowner in the Greenwood district. And all this land belongs to them. In any building you see, that developer got permission and purchased the land from the city. So they're profiting off of the massacre that they caused. Meanwhile, they don't want to pay reparations. Now historic Vernon AME on your website, you have a link or something where someone would want to contribute to the work of its maintenance and restoration. There is a link there, didn't I see that? Yes, sir. It's called Blessing the Basement. If you click on that, it will route you to I think GoFundMe page. Okay. That's VernonAME.com is the website. And giving, it has a giving link on the mask head right there and then there's the Bless the Basement and all the links are there for how you can bless this site that has been placed on the National Register of Historic Places. It was placed there in August of 2018. So that is your opportunity. Those of you watching this program to be able to contribute, to bless the basement and to help historic VernonAME continue into the future. Let's, you know, we say reparations and I'm so glad to have that concept, to have that idea beginning to be talked about more and people wanting to enact that more. How both, you've been doing Bible study every Wednesday. You've been calling out for reparations as part of that cry in the wilderness. What are some of the responses that you're getting? What are some things that you can tell us? And from there, we'll go into some questions and answers because we do have people that are online that might have some things to ask you. But just talk a bit about reparations as you are grappling with it and Tulsa and beyond. Reparations really come from the root word repair. Describes what you do after you have caused damage, right? You repair. It's something that you learn even as a child when my cousins were making Legos or my son who loves to play with Legos when he builds a Lego and his older brother comes and destroys what he just built. He has to repair that. It's something that is ingrained in you as a person. If you have what we call home training, you know how important it is to repair from the home that you've caused. So at its basic rudimentary level, reparations is repaired. Now, the longer you go from the home, the greater the damage, right? So what was a destroyed Lego set, now because my younger son may have walked on those Legos that were destroyed on the ground, now his foot is injured, right? And now blood is coming out of his foot and now his foot has got infected. God forbid that stuff won't happen. Just use that as an analogy. And now feet may be having to be amputated. And now that reduced the kind of job he can have later on in life because he's an amputee. And now that reduces his quality of life and that changes the kind of house he can have and the kind of car he can own. So you see how by not repairing something doesn't eradicate it. It exacerbates it. And what we have in this country is we've had a whole lot of Legos destroyed. And never been repaired for. And this country seemingly, because one of the responses I get is that, nobody likes reparations. Like reparations is a taboo word. Ooh, you can't say that word reparations because people just don't like it. And I say, that's not true. If you studied American policy, both foreign and domestic, reparations is something that America readily does. They've done it to every group that has been marginalized. They've done it in the 1980s to the Japanese-Americans for who were placed in internment camps. And I support that, right? We pay it annually. Every year the Congress, I think last year was $5 million appropriated to the survivors of the Jewish Holocaust. And I support that, right? They should get reparations. They should get payments. But if it's good for the Jewish-Americans, if it's good for the Japanese-Americans, why is it not good for the African-Americans? And it has to be because of race. Like there's no other, I mean, what distinguishes what happens to the Japanese-Americans being placed in internment camps in the 1940s and then to what happened to folk in Greenwood who were placed in concentration camps during the race massacre. What distinguishes and what happened in the Holocaust was terror. It's human tragedy. People were killed. Guess what? We had human tragedy in 1921. People were killed. And we had almost a center of denial. And then if you want to take it back even further to slavery, 1619, we haven't got reparations for anything. And so the damages are compounding. And so if it's good for everybody, in fact, now I support reparations for Japanese-Americans and Jewish-Americans, but a group I don't support reparations for is a group that got it by this country. We pay reparations to slave owners. After the Civil War, we paid reparations and after the American Revolution, they paid reparations. And so I'm like, how can we pay? I went to the University of Alabama. You talked there. There's a plaque on Manly Hall that says this was built in reparations to the South for the devastation and burning down of the campus during the Civil War. The U.S. Congress passed an act that gave 140,000 acres of land that the university sold. And they used the money from that sale to rebuild the University of Alabama campus that was used at the time during the Civil War to train Confederate soldiers. So how in the world can you pay soldiers who committed treason, who killed American soldiers during the Civil War? How can you enslave people and pay their enslaver and pay the folk who fought against you to enslave them, but not pay the slaves? So this country doesn't have a problem with reparations. This country has a problem with black people. What's that? I'm muting and then I'm unmuting. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can. We're opening up to see if some of the folks that are on the line might have something they'd like to raise if they can unmute themselves. I believe they can unmute themselves if they would like to do that. Those who wish through the chat room or on Facebook or YouTube, we will also monitor those and try to get your questions in for the remainder of the time that we have. Feel free. When you ask your question, this is Dr. Demetria Chavaz. Hello, when you ask your question, can you please identify yourself as well? Thank you. And we have put in the chat information about the link to the Build the Bless the Basement campaign and we've put other things in the chat if you wanna take a look there for some of the links about things that we have talked about, the GoFundMe and other ways. I have a quick clarifying question of Reverend Robert Turner. So proud of you, I say that on Facebook all the time. It's just seeing a young person like you really just emerge and do good work in whatever community you find yourself. It is just inspiring and it makes us both, my husband and partner really feel that what we do is worthwhile. So it's such an honor to have you here. The mural, I know that there was a news article threatening that they were going to repave the road and you had talked about that the road didn't need repaving. What type of coalition came about to save the mural there in Greenwood? Well, I wish that you, I hope that you are a prophet and God saves it. Oh, okay, yeah, that's why I needed a clarifying question. I hope that you're right. Right now the city council has voted to repave it and the mayor has yet to accept that recommendation. It looks like he will definitely, he stated in other venues that he will support what the council votes for. But I mean, to me, we need leadership right now. That would be a terrible look for the city of Tulsa to be one of two cities in the whole world. Like because Black Lives Matter murals are all over the world and Tulsa to be, if they do this and to actually see demolition of those letters, of those words would be a terrible look on a city that is trying to present itself as some bastion of a standard barrier for how you handle race relations. It will completely take the emperor's clothes off and expose the naked reality that is Tulsa is not much different if at all than what she was in 1921. But the coalition that has formed Dr. Shabazz is a truly remarkable site to see young white women and men and Black people and indigenous people once there was, because somebody did a blue streak on the Black Lives Matter mural like a few weeks ago and to see all of us out that evening to repaint the Black Lives Matter mural was something special to see. These are young, unattached, like these folk come from various political strikes, various socioeconomic strikes, even various faith and some no faith, but believe in the principle of humanity and that all lives can't matter into Black Lives Matter. So that is a coalition that I know will continue on despite what the city does. And honestly, I hope if they do repaint it, that we repaint it again, you know, and just as we can do this as long as they want to as silly as it is, we still have people who don't even like reading the word Black Lives Matter. Let it roll. Reverend Turner, and you know, I like saying Reverend Turner because there was another Reverend Turner back in the 1830s. Yes, sir. That's why they did a lot for our people. A true patriot. Yes, sir. But we do have a question online here and I should say as well, I heard you say all lives can't matter until Black Lives Matter. I know you saw your boy Nick Saban and the roll tied out in the streets. Yes. And there are video on that too. That was quite a shot. I love it. I loved it too. I love it. Question. I love it. Says, what are some of the ways that lower middle class or poor white people can incorporate the concept and action of reparations into their lives? Yeah, I think that's a great question. I get that a lot from the individual. Like how can I as an individual bring about reparations? And to me, it's really about the essence of who did the wrong doing it, right? And because nobody here is like 200 years old but our governments are, it is incumbent upon those actors that are still in existence. Like the government, the church, the schools. I was so encouraged to see Georgetown give reparations to those slaves that worked on their campus. It's important for them to do direct action first, right? And what that means for an individual is they lobby their elected official, right? Because pretty much anything you see built before 1865 was made by slave hands, period. So that includes your schools. That includes your homes. That includes your churches. That includes your government buildings. Anything you see in this country built before 1865, nine times out of 10, it was made by black slave hands, nine times out of 10, especially if it was massive. And so as an individual, I think it is important to help build this critical mass of support in this rainbow coalition of folks who are not just black who are calling their legislators in favor of reparations. Not being afraid to do that, right? Because what the legislators say is that their poor white constituents don't feel like they should have to pay for reparations because if the government does, it will come from some sort of tax, right? So as money we pay into the government. But if poor whites or middle-class whites call their legislators and say, hey, I don't mind my tax dollars going to reparations, my tax dollars going to stuff right now in Mars. I will never live in Mars. My tax dollars right now are going to studies on things as mundane as how blue is blue and how green is green. Why shouldn't my tax dollars go to study the worst and original sin of America, which is racism, slavery. HRR 40 should be a no-brainer. It's not even a reparations payment bill. It's a reparations study bill. Who is against the study of all the crazy things we study in this country? You really with a straight face will say, you don't feel the need to study reparations, study slavery, study the vestiges of white supremacy in our society. That's a joke. So that's what I would encourage her or him to do. Also, always good to know your genealogy and to know what role did your family play in it. You may be pleasantly surprised that your family was a great supporter of poor blacks or slaves. And you may find something more troubling, but it is important to know the truth, right? It's important for all of us to know the truth. And I think once we all know the truth, we will have a easier path in knowing what our next step should be. I think that's a great answer, Robert. If even, you know, whatever race you are, however heavy or light your pocket is, you know, you can give your voice. You can add to that cry and the wilderness to say, hey, I wanna see justice. I want things, you know, done right. I want to be a part of repairing the damage that has been done. Dita, you have any other questions and can you give me a time check? Well, we are at 6.02, but you know, if we could have a, maybe one or two more questions, if folks do have them, otherwise we can begin to close out. I'd like to know, Robert, what are some of the next steps you've told us to write our senators? There's someone saying they definitely are gonna write and thanks Senator Elizabeth Warren. I think that's a no-brainer for those who are listening in and watching. We have a great senator who is not only supporting people here in the state of Massachusetts, but also in her home state of Oklahoma. So I think that should be definitely applauded. What are some next steps that you and your congregation are taking? I know some of the troubling things that I've seen on the internet and in the news have been some of the harassment that you have endured at Mount Vernon, you and your church members. Can you speak to what are the some of the next steps that you all are working on until? Yes, I will. And before I answer that, I wanna say that whoever writes the letter to Senator Warren, please tell her that you heard about that from this difficult dialogue done by Dr. Shabazz and Shabazz. Because it is important to let her know who is sounding the alarm. Because I'm sure, I know M. Hersey has several endowments, but I'm sure that this program could use any type of support that they can get. So if you do write a letter, tell her you heard Reverend Dr. Turner on the difficult dialogues hosted by Dr. Meerkart and Demetra Shabazz. And then tell her how great of a person she is for that resolution. Well, Amherst Media, real quick, we'll be happy to hear that because there are partners in this. And definitely thank you to Faith and Jeff for helping us do this live broadcast today. So I just wanted to make sure. Just say it. Hey, hey, hey brother, I just wanted to weigh in. And this is Ed Cage out of Amherst, Mass. And I recently was there to visit with you, but you were very busy. I talked to Paul and- Oh man. Yes, yes. It was a great feeling to be in that environment. My dad lives there in Tulsa in Broken Arrow. And he was so excited about the whole thing, but you were busy. And we came back to tell us Shabazz's, why I told him that I had visited the church and it was the energy was amazing. Thank you for what you're doing for being taking the bold action to stand out and stand up and speak out. I just, I really appreciate it. I thank God for you and your congregation and the people that will rally with you in the efforts of making change, brother. Man, I really appreciate that. And it pains me, one of the negative parts about getting visibility is not being able to meet with people that just come into my office. They happen again today. Somebody came and I'm on this call and so they missed it. But I really hope that you can find time to come back and I would love to sit with you. My schedule has just become insane recently. And so to answer your question, Dr. Shabazz, what we're trying to do here at Vernon is kind of what the brother mentioned. We give tours like on a daily basis to anybody that come. We love to try to tell the story of Vernon of Greenwood. We are in this fight. And anytime you're seeking change, there can be no progress without struggle. I think Frigid Douglas said that. And there is great struggle. See, he says, well, there's no struggle, there's no progress. And right now there's a great struggle in this city. And it has shown its face physically to me with the harassment and the assault that I saw at City Hall. And it was a terrible moment. It has shown its face, even people driving by the church and throwing eggs at someone who they thought was me because they looked like me. And it has caused us to enhance our security. And for security reasons, I won't say what those measures are because I don't know who I was watching this. But I'm very much so a believer in, as David said, my rod, that rod and that staff shall come from me. And so I do believe in making sure that we are wise as a serpent, but homeless as a dove. And so I won't go much more into that besides you all keeping us lifted up in prayer. This work is not easy. There have been some very difficult days, very tense moments in the several marches that I've led. And I even, I pray for those participants in the marches. We have children coming to our protest. I mean like children. And their parents wanting them to be a part of this movement, which is so powerful for me to see. And we have a diverse coalition of people who are coming to lend their voice and give up their time. And so I'm humbled by the trust people's display and have given, but I'm even more so humbled by the fact that Amherst College in Massachusetts, one of the most prestigious institutions of how I learned in the world, invited me today. And so I've just, I mean, I'm indebted to you all. And anytime you wanna carry on this conversation again, I'll be more than amenable to it. Well, let me- Well, we are prestigious, but you're gonna correct them there, huh, Sean? No, no, no, we have a viewership involving Amherst College, our small liberal arts four-year college. We're of course at the flagship campus of the University of Massachusetts, which is a comprehensive university. And we also have our own little Hampshire College here, as well as Mount Holyoke and Smith College. So we have a whole five colleges in the ocean. I hope as this COVID-19 limit wanes and we are able to invite guests up here to speak and to fellowship with us, that people hearing this, part of our students in Afro-American studies and steppic social thought and political economy and other programs will reach out and think of bringing you up here to share more with us in the days post COVID. And I hope that as people watch this, they will see that. Springfield, our big city, just 20 minutes away, there's Gardner Memorial, AME Zion, there's Bethel, African and Methodist Episcopal Church. We have an AME Zion right here in Amherst, Goodwin Memorial. I know that's a slightly different nomination, but I'm only saying that, you know, whether it's in the church, whether it's on our campuses or just community organizations, I do really look forward after COVID when we can actually have you out here in person to interact and to build with us. And so, yes, any others, any other parting observations or thoughts? I've mentioned in the chat, the brother that spoke to your Ed Cage, he and his wife, Vera Cage, are social justice warriors. There are comrades here, we've been doing so much in the community across Massachusetts with the Asian American Commission and in other ways, but his father, Ed Cage Sr., is there and we'll have to definitely send the word that even until Ed Jr. can get down there too, that he should feel free to go over and try and visit, maybe volunteer, help hand out some of the groceries or something, wherever you can put them to work. And yes, that's what we're gonna see. Tom, is that Tom here? Yeah, Tom is here from our Bridge for Unity. We have Felicia Savine here. We thank all of you. Sandy Mendel, former colleague of mine at UMass. Thank you all so much for being a part of this. Lindsay Goldfarb, if the names on the streams are accurate, we really appreciate everyone that joined in that way. My student in the Du Bois department, Jose Gonzalez, was on through the Facebook stream, Eli Bonder. We really appreciate all of you joining us from the Jewish Congregation of Amherst, the Sadek Initiative. I see Jeff here. We were just with them yesterday. So really, we appreciate this whole coming out to witness and welcome our brother, Robert Turner. He brings, speaks from a very deep well of truth and inspiration. When we met, it was actually around history. We were really fighting. Folks had really gotten activated because it was discovered that there were African ancestors who had been enslaved, who was enslaved on the campus. That's right. Of the University of Alabama. They worked for no wages and were enslaved on the campus and they were buried on the campus, right by one of the science buildings. Biology building. And yet there was no marker, there was no nothing at all. It was as though they came, they went, they never were, they were unimportant and yet as Reverend Turner was saying, they built the campus. They gave their lives for the campus with no remuneration and then not even a marker to say, hey, they're buried here. And I'll tell you, it was Robert Turner and other students that sparked up and said, no mice, not while we're here. We may all be graduating in a year or two, but we're going to leave something behind. And that change was put into effect. There is a marker there. You can go on that campus now and by that building and you'll see the marker. And this is what we've all got to learn everywhere we are, whether as students, whether as pastors, whether as professors, whether in whatever walks of life, whatever class station that while we're here, do something, be part of repairing the history, repairing our memory and repairing the social structure that holds society together to be more just and to ameliorate the harm that has been done. So again, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for joining us. We'll have to do this again and stay updated on things to come. I'm going to put the word out to Senator Warren. Maybe we can get her in a panel here as well following up on this, because we've got to get that bill moved out of the Senate and into law and get Trump. If he had the whatever to go to Tulsa on Juneteenth to have a campaign rally, then let him show up for signing that bill, for pushing on his Republican colleagues in the Senate and in the House to sign into law the bill commemorating the centennial and to put some resources behind helping the last thing standing, helping historic Vernon and helping other parts of the Greenwood community to show to the nation, to show to the world that yes, this great and unnecessary and just racist tragedy of white supremacy happened here. But here we are a hundred years later and we're stronger and we're more united against anti-black racism than ever before. Let that be, let that bill go forward and approve us to have a really significant centennial this coming May, acknowledging and into June, acknowledging June 1, acknowledging what happened in Tulsa and acknowledging that this will never, ever happen again. Let us learn from history and let us go forward to make a new history that is based on justice. Thank you again. Thank you one and all for being a part of this.