 Good afternoon, everybody. My name is John Deveno. I see many, many faces out here, so thank you for coming this afternoon. This is our third day of our Ethan Allen Day observance, and I'm not sure how many of you saw this, but it was on Channel 5 yesterday. And it's in the free press also that on Friday we had 21 new American citizens who were sworn in here in our lobby. Senator Leahy was here, and had some other dignitaries. It was very, very impressive to see these young folks all dressed in their Sunday best, and extended families with them. It was very impressive. The ceremony was at 2 o'clock, at 5 after 1, they were all sitting in place. That's how these people were very, very impressive. Yesterday we had a gunsmith, we had a woodcarver, we had a spinner, and someone doing talks in our garden, so we had a lot of various activities going on through the day. And of course today is our third Sunday of the month lecture on the fourth Sunday of the month because of the other activities that we had going on. So it's going to be a real pleasure for me to introduce Jim Hoag. Has anybody seen Jim before? He's been around for quite some time. He is a stage veteran who has directed several productions. He may be seen on Dutch television as Jim Hoag, the Vermont secessionist. Right, he operates a small farm, trains his Arabian horse Harold, and he hosts a radio program at 9 o'clock on Mondays on WGDR, which you can pick up on your computer at WGDR.org. Now a little bit about Ethan Allen. This is a quote from the biography of Ethan Allen by Jared Sparge, 1829. 1829, so this guy could have been almost a contemporary of Ethan because he died in 1789. There is much to admire in the character of Ethan Allen. He has grew brave, generous, and frank. True to his friends, true to his country, consistent and unyielding in his purposes. Seeking at all times to promote the best interests of mankind, a lover of social harmony, and a determined foe to the art of justice and the approach of self-power. If you have suffered more in the cause of freedom, if you have borne their suffering with a firmer, constant seed or a loftier spirit, to no individual among her patriot founders is the state of Vermont more indebted for the basis of her free institutions and the achievement of her independence than to Ethan Allen. Now wouldn't it be nice if Ethan Allen was here with us until we get on this today, right? Oh my goodness, I believe he has just arrived on the stage. I thank you, sir. Thank you, Ethan. Some are appointed to office in these states that read the history of the cruelties of these wars with the same careless indifference as they do the pages of the Roman history. Some are appointed to places of trust and are influenced by the Tories. We hold such influence in disdain for it. For it denies the blood and treasure that we have spent on our liberty. Ever since I arrived at the state of manhood and acquainted myself with the general history of mankind, I have felt a sense of passion for liberty. The history of nations doomed to perpetual slavery in consequence of yielding up to tyrants their natural born liberties I read with a sort of philosophical horror. So that the first, systematical and bloody attempt at Lexington to enslave America thoroughly electrified my mind and fully determined me to take part with my country. And as I was wishing for an opportunity to signalize myself on its behalf, directions were privately sent to me from the then colony of Connecticut to raise the green mountain boys and if possible with them to surprise and take the fortress Tychonderoga. This enterprise I cheerfully undertook and after guarding the several passes that led thither to cut off intelligence between the garrison and the country made a forced march from Bennington and arrived at the lake on the evening of May 9, 1775 with 283 valiant green mountain boys. We had the utmost difficulty in procuring boats across the lake but I landed 83 men at the garrison and sent the boats back to the rearguard commanded by Colonel Seth Warner. But as the day began to dawn I found myself under the necessity to attack the fort before the rear could cross the lake. As this was deemed hazardous I harangued the officers and soldiers in the manner following. Friends and fellow soldiers, you have for a number of years passed been a scourge and terror to arbitrary power. Your valor is famed abroad and acknowledged as appears by the advice and orders to me from the General Assembly of Connecticut to surprise and attack and attack the fortress before us. I propose to advance before you and in person conduct you through the wicked gate for we must this morning either quit our pretenses to valor or take charge of this fortress. As this is a most dangerous attempt, a most desperate attempt, I do not urge it on any contrary to his will. You that will undertake voluntarily poise your firelocks. Well that is the introduction, the opening chapter of Colonel Ethan Allen's narrative of his captivity. Interestingly enough the title is about this long in the original edition. I mention that because that is Ethan as the soldier. I hope to cover quickly Ethan the philosopher, Ethan the religious philosopher, and Ethan the negotiator for the Haldeman negotiations. And those three topics should take us to about 45 minutes at which time I hope you will have questions. There are various quotations that I think are important. So you heard Ethan the soldier. Now listen to Ethan the rational soldier, the humanitarian. When he was on parole one of the charges he took upon himself as an officer on parole in New York during his two years eight months captivity was to try to look after whatever prisoners he could. And the British deliberately starved the prisoners and here's an account of one particular prisoner. I was and the prisoners were kept confined in the basement of churches or in church yards with guards. I was in one of the church yards and it was rumored among those in the church and sundry of the prisoners came with their usual complaints to me. And among the rest a large boned tall man as he told me from Pennsylvania who was reduced to a mere skeleton. Said he was glad to see me before he died which he had expected to have done last night but was a little revived. He furthermore informed me that he and his brother had been urged to enlist in the British service but had both resolved to die first. That his brother had died last night in consequence of that resolution and that he expected shortly to follow him. But I made the other prisoners stand a little off and told him with a low voice to list which means to enlist. Then he asked whether it was right in the sight of God. I assured him that it was and that duty to himself obliged him to deceive the British by enlisting and deserting the first opportunity upon which he answered with transport that he would list. I charged him not to mention my name as his advisor. At least it should get air and I should be closely confined in consequence of it. So my point there being that Ethan had a rational approach to the military. And he saw the most effective thing that these officers and soldiers could do would be when pressed to enlist and then do what damage they could after that. They're doing their country more good that way and they're saving their own lives and many of them had wives and children to return to. So that the honor that was generally considered the honor of the soldier does not is second to reason. Reason is what God gave us and we would be disobeying the will of God if we did not use our reason. And when we get to the oracle of man which is a 500 page treatise on religion you will see why he got in so much trouble. Because he was pointing out that if God hadn't wanted us to think he wouldn't have given us a brain. And that is the opposite of what church and state teach. And so he did not make many friends with those kinds of attitudes. And I could quote you some of the horrible things that were said about him. And I happened to believe that a lot of it had to do with his ability to spot hypocrisy and to think clearly about militarism and what the state and the church were asking people to do. I have a quote from this wonderful little book which is probably on sale here called The Quotable Ethan Allen. And this quote describes his attitude toward hypocrisy very clearly. There was a group of Vermonters that were not just Vermonters at the time. A group of settlers who moved to a place in Pennsylvania called Wyoming. And they wanted to set up their own place on earth which Ethan called the right to self preservation. And Blackstone the law dictionary calls it the safety of the whole. But Ethan called it the right to self preservation. And here is what he has to say about the hypocrisy of the government of Pennsylvania. In these scenes of horror and complicated woe we were your frontier. Our blood answered for yours. Our hazard and unparalleled distress purchased your safety. We stood between you and the tomahawk and scalping knife and diverted the inhuman strokes from you. But alas what returns have we had from your government? The widows and orphans of those who fell in the common cause of America particularly in your defense have been plundered, despoiled of their goods and driven from their habitations and legal possessions which other inhabitants in general and the whole treated nearly as inhumanly as by the common enemy. And many of our inhabitants have been killed by the hostile attempts of government to dispossess us of our lands and labors without the formality of a trial by law. Your government hitherto have been extremely earnest to cram their laws down our throats and do not fail to hold up to our view the sanctity thereof, the law they say is holy just and good. But the said inhabitants alias Yankees are carnal rioters rebellious and sold under sin and our lands and labors must pay for it. And find the inhabitants of Wyoming and its vicinity are so sinful and rebellious that you gentlemen of the militia of Pennsylvania must leave your farms and occupations, wives and children and at the hazard of your lives kill and destroy those ugly Yankees who guarded your frontier in the late war and who if you do not extirpate will guard you in a subsequent one. That the people of the state at large have a right to judge and even interpose in this interesting dispute will further appear when by a government swayed by interest, interested in overbearing men, they are ordered to march under arms to the hostile ground of Wyoming and at the hazard of their lives fight against us for no other cause, not reason, but that we will not tamely surrender our farms orchard, tenements, labors and right of soil to a junto of land thieves. And he goes on naturally, he tends to. And I selected this piece because I wanted in the beginning to give you a taste of his passion for liberty number one and his hatred of hypocrisy number two. And of course you can't hate hypocrisy if you don't see it. And he saw it clearly in what was happening in Pennsylvania and he saw it clearly in what was happening all around him. And in Pennsylvania they were denying these settlers the right to exist when the Revolutionary War had just won, they just won through a war of secession, seceding from England, they had won that and now, oh well that's over, we don't have to grant you the right to exist here in Pennsylvania. And so again, looking at who Ethan was, he attacked hypocrisy wherever he saw it. And if you can spot any in him, please let me know because I've been studying Ethan for a long time and I see paradoxes, sure. Plenty of paradoxes, but I don't see hypocrisy in him. Alright so that's a taste of the narrative and a taste of his idea of hypocrisy. I wanted to tell you, give you a little bit more out of the narrative on his ideas of internationalism and peace and how to get along with your neighbors. And I find that particularly interesting right now today for reasons you may gather when I read this or reasons you might want to ask me about when we have time at the end. I know my friend Danny back there will know immediately what I'm talking about. Okay, he's talking to the British now in his book. Your power has been continued longer than the exercise of your humanity and is by no means sufficient to support your vanity. I have something of a smattering of philosophy and understand human nature in all its stages tolerably well. I am thoroughly equated with your national crimes and assure you that they not only cry aloud for heaven's vengeance but excite mankind to rise up against you. Virtue, wisdom and policy are in a national sense always connected to power or in other words power is their offspring and such power as is not directed by virtue, wisdom and policy never fails to destroy itself as yours has done. It is so in the nature of things and unfit it should be otherwise for if it was not so vanity and justice and oppression might reign triumphant forever. He goes on to talk about his belief that trade and cultural exchanges are what will bring peace to the world. My affections are frenchified, I glory in Louis XVI, the generous and powerful ally of these states and I'm fond of a connection with so enterprising, learned, polite, courteous and commercial a nation and I'm sure that I express the sentiments and feelings of all the friends of the present revolution. I begin to learn the French tongue and recommend it to my countrymen before Hebrew, Greek or Latin provided only one of them be attended to for the trade and commerce of these states in future must inevitably shift its channel from England to France, Spain and Portugal and therefore the statesmen, politician and merchant need be acquainted with their several languages particularly the French nothing as the present revolution nothing could have served so effectively and effectually to illuminate polish and enrich these states as the present revolution as well as preserve their liberty mankind are naturally too national even to the degree of bigotry and commercial intercourse with nations as a great and necessary tendency to improve mankind and erase the superstition of the mind by equating them that human nature, policy and interest are the same in all nations and at the same time they are bartering commodities for the convenience and happiness of each nation they may reciprocally exchange which part and customs and manners as may be beneficial and learn to extend charity and goodwill to the whole of mankind so you can see Ethan as the defender of his place on earth of his territory but you can see him also as a man open to commerce and cultural intercourse of all kinds and education we're talking about the age of enlightenment here which did not go unnoticed by Ethan Allen his belief in science was as strong as any of his beliefs in whether it be a military operation or whether it be political he believed that science was the way to trump superstition and idolatry and so let's move on to that where Ethan says a competency of knowledge in the sciences is our only bulwark against superstition and idolatry the superstitious parts of mankind which one means or other are far the more numerous are but the dupes of church and state at whose command they cut one another's throats as they suppose for God's sake and commit all manner of cruelty and outrage how many ideas can you put in two sentences? I hope we can talk about that if we have time later because that is a mouthful the whole idea of seeing what church and state gets people to do how it gets them to behave in opposition to logic, reason and science he got and he wrote his oracle the reason the only oracle of man to make this point now I'll go a little bit into the oracle and then spend time talking about one of his greatest accomplishments which was the Haldeman negotiations how many of you know what they were? oh good, okay, oh one, two, okay so you can verify what I'm saying or criticize it however you wish okay, the oracle of man these are Ethan's own words in a book called The American Deists of which he was one, Benjamin Franklin was another for example by the way somebody in Ethan's opening remarks is thoroughly electrified in my mind somebody in an audience would say well they didn't have electricity in those days and I wanted to say oh who was Benjamin Franklin? what is the one thing you learn about Benjamin Franklin if you don't know anything else? so anything, anyway this is again a mouthful so let's see how we do with it this is from his book Reason the Only Oracle of Man so you're getting an idea that he was fairly articulate maybe a bit too wordy the desire of knowledge has engaged the attention of the wise and curious among mankind for ages which has been productive of extending the arts and sciences far and wide in the several quarters of the globe and excited the contemplative to explore nature's laws in gradual series of improvement till philosophy, astronomy, geography and history and many other branches of science arrived to a great degree of perfection it is nevertheless to be regretted that the bulk of mankind even in those nations which are most celebrated for learning and wisdom are still carried down the torrent of superstition and entertain very unworthy apprehensions of the being, perfections, creation and providence of God and their duty to him which lays an indispensable obligation on the philosophic friends of human nature unanimously to exert themselves in every lawful, wise and prudent method to endeavor to reclaim mankind from their ignorance and delusion by enlightening their minds in those great and sublime truths concerning God and his providence and their obligations to moral rectitude which in this world and that which is to come cannot fail greatly to affect their happiness and well-being and this leads me to sort of give you a cue what's coming up this reflects Plato in that moral good is a good activity if you do good if you do moral activities you will become happy that's pure Plato and Ethan gets to that idea in one of the things that I'll be reading you and that is happiness is being a moral good and he says moral good is the only source from whence a rational mind can be supplied with a happiness agreeable to the dignity of its nature it would be impossible for omnipotence itself to make a vicious mind taste the ecstatic felicity of a moral happiness so long as it may be supposed to be vicious in as much as morality in the nature of the thing itself is a prerequisite to that happiness without the possession an actual enjoyment of which the mind cannot be mentally happy or enjoy itself agreeable to its discerning conscious and sentimental nature but must disapprove of the erroneous departure or its vicious pursuits from the amiable rules of moral fitness and feel proportionably guilty and miserable that was one sentence and so I don't I never recommend anybody try to reason the only oracle of man I couldn't get through it myself but I am extremely impressed at his ability to reason in the same way that the great philosophers reason I assume that he read Plato he studied under John Young and studied the classics studied Greek whether or not he learned any of the Greek languages neither here nor there the fact is that he studied all the great philosophers and out of which he came into a new enlightenment himself which was that the church and the state are feeding you a lot of superstition so that you will behave the way they want you to so that you'll pay your taxes so that you'll fight their wars for them that may not do you any good at all may not do humanity any good at all but they have their reasons and they will persuade you to do it I remember the this is a direct opposition to what the war poets from 1911 through 1917 said that they got home and the minister would say to them well you did your part you fought God's cause you might only have one leg but it's worth it and Ethan knew long before that what nonsense that was and how your own reason should play a part in a democracy and just to make you a full human being that is what ought to play a part in your lives and I came here today because people think of Ethan Allen as this brash semi-soldier a part-time soldier who took for Tyga Naroga from 23 tired sleeping English and by the way I want to mention that generally I would think that a soldier who does his homework and realizes that the fort is poorly defended would usually be complimented I mean isn't that the idea that you do your research and you scout the place and you find out what you're going to be up against so what do we read today by some authors oh there were only 48 people there and 23 of them could fight well that's the point that you try to beat the enemy you don't try to get all your men shot you try to get what you want to get and his job from Connecticut it wasn't actually the General Assembly but I don't think he knew that and Benedict Arnold was of course with him on this assault and the idea was to take it without getting anybody killed and without killing anybody and that's exactly what he did and he sent as you probably know he sent the cannon to Washington at Dorchester Heights and that is arguably what scared General Gage out of Boston and sent him fleeing to New York so I consider that an accomplishment I don't consider that something to make fun of whereas people for some reason like to go after Ethan Allen for things for his great accomplishments and that leads me to the Haldeman negotiations which I consider his greatest accomplishment for the creation of a safe Vermont outside of the ten years he kept New York at bay with the Green Mountain Boys and again if you have any questions about the Green Mountain Boys and how well that happened I'd be happy to answer them so Haldeman negotiations what was that all about I will read you a little bit about how they started and why they started essentially the official story from Ethan is the Haldeman negotiations with General Haldeman in Montreal were to free prisoners were to make an exchange of prisoners but they accomplished so many more things than that that I think it's really worth talking about Ethan as the negotiator as the representative of Vermont who made this happen he wasn't the only one Ira was a very big player Ira Allen in this and so was Governor Chittenden at the time so here we have the Haldeman negotiations and we have a letter from George Washington and another letter from Christopher Christopher what can I think of his name Carlton which is General Carlton there so Washington says I have been favored to the headquarters of Ethan Allen I have been favored with yours of the 16th incident I cannot without deviating from the rule of conduct which I have constantly observed exchange the officers of Colonel Warner's regiment at this time because there are a great many who have been much longer in captivity and have therefore a just right to a preference but to endeavor to afford them the best relief the nature of the cause case will admit I have written to General Haldeman and proposed to him to send them and the other prisoners of war in his possession to New York et cetera et cetera that's George Washington to Ethan Allen now that's how these negotiations got started because Ethan thought that it was not exactly kosher to treat the prisoners the way they were being treated and then we have a letter from Christopher Carlton back to Ethan Allen by the bearer Captain Sherwood Sherwood was a Green Mountain boy who became a Tory because he felt that the United States well what did the United States he felt that America should remain part of the British Empire I received General Haldeman's letter to Governor Chittenden on subject of an exchange of prisoners I have authorized Captain Sherwood to treat with the governor and you on the subject though I though could I meet with you or him or both perhaps the business would be sooner concluded as should any difficulty arise between Captain Sherwood and you my instructions are so ample that I flatter myself I could remove them et cetera I mention these two letters because I wanted to give you a little history as to how these negotiations first began and again ostensibly to free prisoners but I'll tell you in the course of this little talk how many more other things were achieved in the course of these negotiations Ethan was accused by some and even today there are a few people who haven't figured it out he was accused of some of treason because here's this guy from who knows where Vermont what's that who's negotiating with the chief governor of Canada for the exchange of prisoners and he has no right to do that who's he think he is and yet he was successful what did he accomplish by entering into these negotiations with General Haldeman well he accomplished a secession of hostilities between the British Empire and Vermont he said here's the carrot if we pull this off I would like to bring Vermont back into the British Empire that was the carrot now even this wonderful fellow who was here David talk here David Bennett who writes this book with the idea that Ethan was serious about joining he quotes Ethan as saying no way I could pull this off the people of Vermont would have my head so I think that's good enough evidence that it was just a carrot so that these exchanges could go forth but much more than that it was a carrot to keep the British from using Lake Champlain and Vermont as a corridor and raiding Vermont towns fighting the Vermont militia or the Continental Army as it was at that time in Vermont so those kinds of accomplishments are not to be shrugged off as minor and another great accomplishment was that if he could postpone this long enough at least through the fall of 81 I think we're in to now he could allow the farmers to harvest their crops which was pretty important in those days if you didn't harvest your crop you starved so some people look at this and say Ethan was brilliant some people look at this and say oh he was just lucky he was really trying to join the British Empire and all this other stuff well that just kind of happened well usually in history when a leader accomplishes something you tend to ascribe intent to that accomplishment so in the case of Ethan if he prolonged any potential British invasion then that's what he tried to do and that was his intent if he did that so that farmers could harvest their hay and their crops that was his intent if he did that so that the British couldn't use Lake Champlain and raid the towns that was what he intended to do and if he also achieved what he said he wanted to do which was exchange prisoners then wow good for you Ethan you've done all these things that's amazing and we still have people who question these negotiations and again I don't mean to say that Ethan was like the only leader behind this because Ira was important and Governor Chittenden was important and in that among those accomplishments Haldemann and Burgoyne both considered the Vermonters to say the Green Mountain Boys at the time a formidable enemy said Haldemann having been from their earliest contests continually in arms they are in every respect better provided than continental troops and their principles more determined and said the usually Bellicose Burgoyne who was the person who got his rear end kicked at Bennington the Hampshire grants now abounds in the most active and rebellious race in the continent and hangs like a gathering storm on my left George Washington was equally respectful and wished that Congress would act to get Vermont officially on their side before it was too late you don't want the Green Mountain Boys fighting against you you want them on your side and I think that again is a tribute to Ethan Allen because he was one of the people who formed the Green Mountain Boys and I don't want to imply that he was the only one this wonderful book Moses Robinson and the founding of Vermont by Judge Mello is a wonderful perspective on other people who were doing the same things that Ethan was and who they were and who the Green Mountain Boys were and who did what so again I'm not trying to over blow Ethan's importance I'm just trying to give him credit for the amazing accomplishment of the Haldeman negotiations so I rushed through is there anything else I wanted to mention about oh yeah some of you who happen to be Vermont historians might say well what about the Royalton raid the Royalton raid was not an official raid by the British army and after it happened it was regarded as a mistake so it had nothing to do with what Ethan was trying to accomplish because they weren't supposed to do that raid they were provoked by the Kanawaga Indians who wanted some fun and wanted to get some scalps and steal when they came down what did they steal? mirrors, furniture, hats clothing and people and took them back they purposely avoided the other one anyway and they went to Royalton because it was utterly defenseless and populated by innocent settlers so that raid my point is that Ethan's Haldeman negotiations were a complete success because there were something like 54 raids in New York Ohio along the Lake Champlain in the Great Lakes areas 54 raids during that period of the Haldeman negotiations and not one in the state of Vermont except for the Royalton raid which had nothing to do with the British army at all so again, kudos for Ethan Allen for figuring this out and I believed it was something that he figured out it didn't just happen so there's another thing in the Oracle what time is it? 242 242, okay we'll all mention that quickly to get us up to 245 there's the doctrine of imputation which Ethan railed against which is the doctrine that the sins of the father are visited upon the son Adam and Eve they made a mistake and humans are going to be punished ever since he thought that was just idiotic ridiculous and he said if you regard God as somebody who is omnipotent and who knows what he's doing why do you say that he does these idiotic things he punished a person hell and eternity for telling a lie and the same punishment for murdering 20 people whatever it is so Ethan went after point by point in the Bible as to why he says that religion that teaches these things is teaching superstition and the doctrine of imputation is one of the how one of the points that he makes he says I fancy sir you will be diverted when you read the 12th chapter that's of reason the only oracle of man it rips up and overturns the whole notion of jockeying, alienating, transferring and imputing of sin or righteousness from one person to another and leaves all mankind accountable for their own moral agency this is fatal to the ministerial damnation salvation and their merchandise thereof it's one of my favorite expressions of Ethan Allen ministerial damnation salvation so we damn you for this but if you pay us you're saved and he just says how can you people believe this stuff and that's why he was hated for writing reason the only oracle of man because he pointed out these what I think are rather obvious flaws in the concept of a god who knows what he's doing and he said you know we all believe that god knew what he was doing and this is before Darwin remember so there's no nobody had thought of the concept of chaos working itself out you know that the earth formed itself from the little atoms here and nuclei here and the whole world grew out of that that concept of chaos had not entered into anybody's mind yet so Ethan believed in a god who knew what he was doing gave man a brain and said well if man's reason isn't more important than Catholicism or Protestantism or whatever else how come man can go from one religion to another if he wants to how come man can choose his religion if his brain isn't more important than your church and of course that got him hated because when you can't answer you can't answer a guy like that you can oh well that's a good point or you can make a big fuss about it and so again I wanted to point out his ability to see clearly to come up with the expression the damnation salvation society is I thought a very clever way of seeing the way church and state get people to behave themselves so I think I better stop yelling at you and pontificating because I think I've given you a pretty good idea of what I wanted to convey about Ethan Allen from the soldier to the humanitarian to the internationalist to the scholar if you will and so I'm hoping that you might be able to come up with some questions yes about the Haldeman discussions about how many months did it take with the length of time it took to get messages back and forth to Montreal and to where he was where Ira and he were and and was he actually just being insincere when he was using Vermont as a carrot did he think that they'd fall for that and then if the things came together how come the Brits didn't insist that he hand over Vermont well you have asked the question that scholars have been wondering about ever since and I think I can answer it the first part how long did it take well it depended on the given letter and where it was going but for proof of how long it took some of these prisoners didn't get released till after the war was over and these negotiations started long before that so it did take a long time for communications to make it from one place to another and some escaped from they were imprisoned many of them on an island on the St. Lawrence where the currents were wicked I mean if you tried to swim you just get sucked under and some people who were great swimmers apparently made it or they grabbed a hold of a log and you know went along a very difficult trek even if you got across into Vermont you had a very difficult time getting home and so many died in that process who had already been supposedly exchanged so it was a pretty ironic and tragic situation that it took so long to get these letters back and forth in some cases and then the other your other question was what about the carrot of Vermont that he turned over to the Brits Oh yes, a holderman was very suspicious of Ethan they knew he was a pretty clever character and they didn't know how much influence he had in Vermont and he himself admitted but he didn't admit that to hold them and hold them and didn't know that they thought you know here's the guy who took like on a rogue a prisoner a great hero let's pay attention to him and he bluffed his way he bluffed New York out of out of Vermont for ten years never killed anybody he bluffed holderman into thinking that he was influential enough to pull this off and so my to me the obvious conclusion is that it was a bluff and it worked good for you Ethan so the scholars who fight over this they don't know what was in Ethan's head but they do know what he accomplished and please just give him credit for what he accomplished don't assume he was trying to accomplish something else like you know with everybody else in history if he crosses the Alps with his elephants and whatever else he does he did that on purpose some scholars seem to think that what Ethan accomplished he didn't quite accomplish on purpose but so my answer is it was a bluff and holderman suspected it but he couldn't resist I mean the idea of Vermont remember holderman was scared of the green mountain boys they were tough and they knew how to fight and they knew how to fight guerrilla warfare so holderman didn't want to go up against the green mountain boys any more than New York did and they never did they were just scared of the green mountain boys and that was because Ethan knew how to bluff the green mountain boys weren't that great that they could beat a force sometimes greater but he made people think that they were yes if you could get some more details about how the holderman the negotiations with the holderman of work and what was accomplished was I mean there was an exchange of prisoners was that just the prisoners that were held on the island in St. Lawrence for prisoners British prisoners who were held where and what else was accomplished prisoners were held as domestic servants in Montreal but I don't know who was exchanged for whom I might have read that at some point but I don't remember who specifically was exchanged for whom but I'm sure it wasn't just the ones that were on that island he writes about that in we go as captives he talks about that but surely there were others you know the name of the island I could look it up before we leave but it's there aren't that many so it would be easy to look it up did I answer your well were the green mountain boys holding British prisoners who were exchanged for the Americans you said they also accomplished a lot of other things what were the other things they accomplished in case I forgot something with what I said before keeping the doors open for statehood I forgot that in Philadelphia they were considering gosh Vermont might tell us goodbye just the way we said goodbye to England so we better like hang in there with them so he kept the negotiations open for statehood which kept Alexander Hamilton in the game and the New Yorkers were having hissy fits because they didn't want Vermont to become a state and the southerners were having hissy fits because they were afraid of another northern state coming in so Ethan by doing that spit up the negotiations temporarily for Vermont becoming a state so that was one making statehood a necessary option for Congress to keep Vermont from switching sides we said that buying time for the green mountains in the fall of 1781 to harvest their crops and prepare for battle I wrote this by the way as part of a review of that book arranging an exchange of Vermont and British prisoners those prisoners that Vermont held would have been officially under the Continental Army they were the Green Mountain Boys were put under the command of Seth Warner and so the prisoners that they captured would have been Continental Army prisoners but the negotiations went on nonetheless with Ethan and Ira and they informed Congress that they were doing this and negotiating a succession of hostilities so those are the five accomplishments of the Haldeman negotiations while all the time I've read the letters of Haldeman she I don't know about this guy so when somebody suspects you and you still pull it off I think that's even worth more credit to you yes thank you and who's a modern day comparable to Ethan Allen wow I love that I love that question I haven't had anybody I haven't had anybody ask it Ben Scotch calls me Ethan Allen all the time and he says we need you because I'm such a thorn in the side of the state house and certain things that don't happen that I think ought to be ranking boy who's a current day Ethan Allen the ones that haven't been killed yet well I'll have to how about John Kerry pardon how about John Kerry no see these people are married to the military industrial complex and even Bernie the F-35 trying to bring the F-35 so I I mean Dennis Kucinich was sort of out there like that and what's it Ryan Ryan Ron Paul not Rand Paul but Ron Paul was kind of in there but Martin Luther King was kind of out there he got killed and I could probably think of some people who were great leaders like that I mean I admire Dave Dellinger he spent several years in jail for his beliefs of non-violence so I don't want to take up everybody's time when I don't have an answer anyway I love the question I'll have to think about that what is moral rectitude I don't know what that term means moral rectitude being right being on the right the moral side of things doing the right thing and supposedly according to Plato there's a paradox here and I don't assume to have an answer but the idea is that if you do the right thing you'll feel good about it but you know there are people like Henry Kissinger who just love slaughtering people so it doesn't hold up necessarily and I just use Henry as the first name that popped into my head I mean I could give you a long list of people who seem to just love to make life miserable for other people and they get a big kick out of it so I can't personally agree with Ethan and Plato on the idea that um you'll feel good if you do the right thing you'll feel good if you do the right thing according to your own needs and beliefs but that doesn't necessarily play into humanity as helping humanity but that's what moral rectitude is okay any other questions yes well for a month he came to stay what was it 1791? yep was Ethan Allen alive? no he died in 89 okay was he in favor of for a month becoming a state? yes he was very much in favor of becoming a state but keep in mind what a state was then a state was a sovereign entity he wouldn't have been he would be turning in his grave over the loss of sovereignty to the states now I think so Vermont came in with a ratification in 200 years I guess it was 1991 there was a ratification Vermont have you heard about this? no apparently I had heard that it needed to be ratified it was in the state house I believe it was in the state house and that it was ratified that it actually came through and I was wondering if you haven't heard about this then of course I was wondering if you could share anything about that and whether or not the ratification would Vermont be considered now a happy member of the union or would Ethan Allen to speculation would he prefer to secede from the union considering where it is right now? where it is now I'm sure Ethan Allen would want to secede where it was then given that each state was a sovereign entity yeah you had everything to gain and nothing to lose by becoming a state because you gained the intercourse with the states you gained power to trade you gained so much by becoming a state and cultural intercourse too it was everything he was in favor of all of that he fought for statehood he was very disappointed when Washington kind of said well hang on a minute now that we've won the war we might just let New York take you over but it didn't happen because Alexander Hamilton got involved and again they were afraid of the Green Mountain voice kicking up a fuss so they became a state for various complicated reasons but they had to pay 30,000 bucks to New York to give the land jobbers in New York that's a I don't know how to explain it quickly but they didn't get a great deal when they joined the union but they did get to join at that time because there were enemies a foot not like today where all the enemies are make-believe they were really worried about the Brits maybe trying again which they did in 1812 so they had every reason to become a state yes do you have an opinion on the new U.S. Constitution before you die that would have been fast well I don't know if it would have been the 89 same year that he died yeah it was the same year that he died but he died in February so and the news was not that fast and he had retired he was like a lot of the founding fathers they said look what I want to do is study agriculture and I want to read look at Jefferson's library that's what these guys wanted to do and so I think that Ethan after he wrote his religious treatise he was happy he adored his wife and his family and he just wanted to kind of chill out so I don't think he would have known about this the second constitution in 89 that we have now yes the fear that everybody had of the Green Mountain Boys was real because the Green Mountain Boys had kicked a lot of butt over the years against superior forces in some cases and they they were extremely successful and at the battle of Bennington they were part of the rear guard that held up the bridge at Hubbardton and Seth Warner brought them down to Bennington and then they took a deep breath and fought again I mean they must have been dead exhausted and the battle of Bennington was a slaughter they beat the the Germans the bridge that were there it was a tremendous victory and it set up Saratoga in my opinion Saratoga couldn't have happened without the defeat that the British suffered in Bennington I mean I'm not alone in that opinion I think that's a pretty well accepted opinion it's just that in the history books it's like well they don't have time to go into all the details but that's I mean and I think it's generally accepted that Bennington set up Saratoga pretty well thank you oh yeah and the whole narrative is on a double CD it's a dramatic reading of this book it's two CDs it takes like from here to Albany in your car if you want to hear it and so it has all the adventures that Ethan had from the time he took Ticonderoga until the time he was released two years eight months as a prisoner of war and a friend of mine said he listened to it three times and he always cried at that part where I read you about the guy who he said go ahead and enlist and then dessert later so anyway yeah so Jim has those for sale afterwards and I'm sure he'll answer more questions afterwards and we want to thank you for coming thank you one of our Homestead mugs and for those of you who don't know my name is Phyllis Drury I am the president of the Ethan Allen Homestead Museum and so I welcome you here thank you for coming and listening to Jim and just sharing in our programs here I'm going to again say thank you and I'm going to introduce you sure I am I'm going to introduce you to John Davina who has some interest he's our organizer for all these events and so he's going to give you some information just to let you know the third Sunday of the month we're going to get back on schedule next month July 16 and the speaker or the person that will be leading the discussion is Dan O'Neill who is our director for six years now back as our director as about two months ago and the title of this talk is going to be the Ethan Allen Homestead Beyond Ethan so he's going to talk about what happened to the house who lived in that house after Ethan died and bring it right up to modern times now coincidentally this afternoon we had a lady and her mother who came and well they're both ladies I guess but the younger one was born in that house in the addition that's right over here in 1988 and the house was reconstructed in like 86, 87 so she remembers all of the things that were happening here when the house went from a farmhouse back into the state that it's there so she's going to be in touch with I gave her, I took her information and Dan's going to be in touch with her for this talk in July and one of the gentlemen from South Burlington he was on the Wunewski Valley Park District Board when the homestead was created and he has a lot of stories, he's the no Ralph Nading Hill, the person who we consider the godfather of the homestead he remembers he had lots of stories of Ralph when he, when they were putting this together back in the 80s so both of these people I think are going to be invited to play a part in next week's, next month's talk so July 16th, 2 o'clock come back alright and one last word, this is an early plug Will Randall, Will Stern Randall who many of you know and spoke here many times he is now on a book tour with his new book that was advertised and there was an article in the paper just recently about it the title is, it's about the war of 1812 I don't remember the exact title but he will be speaking in August about the war of 1812 on that third Sunday of the month ok so, come again