 Members business debate. On motion No 634au Notes. Ayvon McKey wrth ei ragio oeid име i ni, orn oath subsequently, i transfers on the Scottish baby box? Will any questions that will be skirted be put with members? We wish to speak in the debate. Thank you. As soon as possible, I have indicated and intended such eatings to the members who yn ganddiad dyna oedd mae'n ddim yn gyntafol enwedig a'r cael ei gwleidio ei hunain beatyn cyflei yn ddegas nhw. Gael cyddiadau cyflymu'n gyflodol niw, gweld llythyn drws, fan hyn yn gwneud hynny yn cartas cyflymu'n gwneud hynny cyflodol niw, cyflodol fluffy, synsoedd yr wych cyhoedd yn gyrfaith, cyfe大家都 yn bwynt ein, cyflodol yn cellsu argynno ac gwybod. Fynd i ddweudau cyfwiliaid gyffredinol yn ei gwasanaethau cyfwilio ar y rhydwg o gyda Llandfill, yn gallu i gael nawr i'r fanchwiliaeth ei pethauu cyd-dweithio, ac yn cherddon ni'n fawr i'r cael iaith o'r sidef i gyd y trafodaeth i gael i'r cymael i'r wych i weld i'n ei dddorol i'r lleidau yma i'r oedd nifer o'i gwerthu o'r lleidau i'r gweithio yn oeld, ond yr oedd yn cyd-dweithio i'r bach o'r economi a'r strategiau gyda ni'n newid, yw'n cael ei ddweithio i gael i'r cyhoedd. gyda ceilio o mwynhau gan amser yn blypaorel iawn yn cynnig gallwn S.P. Cynlluniai i'r cyfo-beidliadau oesonydd. Rydw i'n rhaid i ti'r bywty. Mae hyn bod y bach jar Rhyw bach ar gyfer, ond mae gennych geniousweithau cyfnod amgylch, ond rhai chygobiadiau ddwych, rhaid o gyfo-beif Thomas Cysgwyr, ac rhaid o bach rhaid o原lluniai i'r cyffredin tarloau? Mae nhw'n gwylltaeth honi, ac rhaid o gwylltaeth gyda gwylltaeth Byddai'r cyflau嘴wys yw'r berth sydd wedi eu ta deplodau, ac yw'r cost ddaw dweud £200-300, ac yn ddechrau i £750 perdysponiad yn symud i fynd yn credu. Felly, o ffarrifon i Cymbylch Gwmbaith Sgwr, fyddai'r gyffinir iawn yn unig. Llyfrgell yn ei ddylnod gan gynghre yng nghylch i'r cyfrifedig iawn. Mae nifer o gyfer cyllidau ar gyfer cyflienol llinig o'r newydd o pobl ei sefyllfaeth i ei ddechrau ar gael, a mor ddod yn gynhyrch ar gyfer gyfledig. nape libraries to engineer a shift towards widespread use of reusable. The environmental issues are stark. Every year Scotland sends 3.3 million tonnes of waste to landfill, costing local authorities and ultimately tax per several million pounds. Any steps that we can take to reduce those costs and the significant impact that landfill has on our planet is to be welcomed. Disposable nape is comprised of 79,000 tonnes—2.5 per cent—of this landfill waste. Disposable nape stick at least 200 years to degrading the soil, and the environmental agency estimates that disposable nape is used over a baby's first two and a half years of life to produce 630 kilograms of greenhouse gas. The typically comprised of materials designed to soak up moisture adding to the waste are wrapped in plastic bags, slowing it down in the degrading process and compounding the impact on the environment. The environmental benefits of reusable nape are clear. Secondly, we are all familiar with the phenomenon of poverty trap pricing, where things cost more for those with the least. A significant driver of the persistence of inequality in our society, any steps that we can take to reduce that will go a long way to securing our policy objectives of reducing inequality. The cost of a full set of reusable nape can be as much as £300, depending on the choice of solution and product chosen by the family. For hard-pressed families, faced with the many often unexpected costs a newborn can bring, this is a lot of money that is required up front. As I said earlier, the cost of providing disposable nappies over a life cycle of our baby's usage is estimated at around £750, but in practice, that favours the purchase of disposable nappies as a family only needs to find five pounds or so at a time to get through the next few days. If implemented correctly, however, the nappy solution in the Scottish baby box has the potential to remove this poverty trap from young families. Thirdly, creating manufacturing opportunities and supporting local small businesses is at the heart of our economic growth strategy for Scotland. Encouraging and rewarding innovation is a key part of that agenda. Shortly before I was elected, I was approached by a local business who, in true entrepreneurial fashion, identified an opportunity to innovate and create more jobs. The business that is locally owned and managed in my constituency manufactures reusable nappies in a factory that has grown over the years to employ 60 mainly female staff in a deprived area of Glasgow. Now winners of multiple awards enjoy some success in exporting a key feature of our Scottish growth strategy, having supplied nappies to the finished baby box. They were excited here of the SNP Government's commitments to implement a Scottish baby box if re-elected and are ready to expand their operations to meet the demand if selected. Finally, this Government has made reducing inequality a priority for this Parliament and ensuring that each child is able to receive a baby box when they are born as a tangible expression of that aim and will play a central part in achieving that ambition. The baby box, similar to a long-standing and successful model in Finland, would reduce inequality by ensuring that children have the best possible start in life all over Scotland. The scheme in Finland has contributed to a full and infert mortality rates from 10 per cent to 0.2 per cent, one of the lowest in the world, showing how successful that innovation can be. It is great to see the Scottish Government looking beyond our borders for ideas that can work in Scotland. The finished model, despite its great success, is however open to improvement and would benefit from some homegrown Scottish innovation. The finished baby box provides a single reusable nappie, while useful in introducing the young family to the concept of reusable nappies. When it is in the wash, they are still required to make use of significant numbers of traditional disposable nappies or to purchase their own set of re-usables. However, a design solution has been developed locally, whereby for the same price as a single reusable nappie in the finished box, a set of one-outer cover, together with six or eight washable inserts, can be provided, getting the family started off habitually using reusable nappies. Courage to the Scottish Government to engage with the manufacturers has developed a solution to ensure that the Scottish baby box provides a solution that exceeds that of the finished baby box in enabling young families to make a rule in decisive rather than a token move away from the use of disposable nappies. Progress is a mixture of steps and leaps, contains improvements that build on each other to nudges in the right direction, and leaps have the potential to move us forward almost overnight, changing cultural norms and resolving at one stroke problems and challenges that otherwise could take years of incremental progress to deliver. Every once in a while, we are presented with an opportunity to drive a significant societal change. Today, we are fortunate enough to be presented with two such opportunities. The baby box itself, providing the opportunity to, as the finished example shows, deliver significant tangible benefits to young families and also the opportunity to drive an overnight change and what becomes a norm for the use of nappies in this country. I urge the Scottish Government to engage with innovators and to enable the step change that we wish to see in making progress on so many fronts with one simple policy decision. Let's make the Scottish baby box on already outstanding innovation in its own right even better. Thank you very much. I move to the open debate. Speeches of four minute please. Mary Todd, followed by Miles Briggs. As a mum of three who has used washable nappies myself and an anti-natal teacher who has encouraged many other parents to try them, I really appreciate the opportunity to take part in the debate. Let me begin with the baby box. It is a fantastic idea. It says loudly and clearly that here in Scotland we believe that every baby should have a good start in life. It says that we value our children and it ensures that all parents in Scotland, regardless of income or wealth, can provide their baby with the essentials. Including reusable nappies in the baby box is a really great idea and it would say that we value our environment in Scotland too. I mentioned already that I used them myself but I have to admit that it took me a while to try them. I felt unsure about the outlay. What if they turned out to be more hassle than they were worth? Once you try them, it's much easier than you might imagine. As Ivan said, modern washables are really easy to use, they're easy to wash, they're easy to dry and I have to say that they're also very easy to put on the baby. There's no safety pin involved. They're kind to the baby's skin, they come in a range of colours and patterns so they look pretty cute too, most people like them. There is a big upfront cost but they save you money in the longer term. Despite the washing costs and the wear and tear in your machine, the actual amount that families could save could range from several hundred pounds up to about £1,000. By including reusable nappies in the baby box, we could potentially bring down the cost of being a parent, leaving families with more money in their pocket. That alone would make it worthwhile but the environmental benefits are great too. Less rubbish going in the bin means less waste going to landfill and because the solid waste gets flushed away into the sewage system, it has to be healthier for everyone. Everyone is agreed that disposable nappies take centuries to biodegrade. Here I have a little disagreement with Ivan, I think that they take 500 years. However, let's say that with figures between 200 years and 500 years banded about, that means that if we had been using disposable nappies when Scotland was an independent country before the union was even conceived of, they'd still be biodegrading around us now. Most babies go through over 4,000 nappie changes before they are potty trained. In the UK, 8 million nappies are changed every day. Disposable nappies make up 2 to 4 per cent of landfill. Clearly, that is not sustainable in the long term. Scotland is committed to becoming an environmentally sustainable country. By including reusable nappies in the baby boxes, we are offering parents and families all over Scotland a win-win option. We give them an opportunity to save money and an opportunity to help Scotland to become an environmentally sustainable country. I have a new way of looking at history and how long it takes for nappie to biodegrade. I now call Miles Briggs to follow by Gail Ross. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I, too, would like to congratulate in McKee on securing this debate this evening and also in bringing forward this, I think, his first member's debate to Parliament. I'm sympathetic to the sentiments expressed by Ivan McKee and other members who have legitimate concerns about the number of disposable nappies each year being sent to landfill and the very real impact of this on our environment. I'm aware of the various estimates about the percentage of domestic waste made up of used disposable nappies. With some suggestions, as Mary Todd has said, that this can be as much as 10 per cent of black bin bag waste. It's clearly a significant issue and one that is impacting on Scotland's meeting our recycling targets. It will take time and effort to persuade parents and parents to look at alternatives to disposable nappies, but it is entirely right of Ivan McKee and others to highlight that modern viable alternative to disposable nappies that exist and are washable, including those with integral nappy linings. I'd also like to commend the success of Todd's Bots in Ivan McKee's constituency. As well as promoting the positives of reusable nappies, I'm aware of some of the good work that's been trialled around the recycling of disposable nappies and other absorbent hygiene products. I'd be interested to hear when the minister's summing up any updates on this and whether previous pilots are likely to be taken forward. With regard to the baby box policy, Scottish Conservatives still remain skeptical about the evidence-based for this universal policy and would question whether or not the expenditure should be focused more on already-pressed resources for parents who are most vulnerable or on the lowest income groups. However, given that the Scottish Government has expressed its determination to take forward this policy, we'd be interested to learn about what potential advice will be included for parents in the box, specifically around how we address baby and toddler dental ill health. In a recent parliamentary written answer that I received, I was informed that around 4,000 children under 5 in Scotland are having teeth extracted every year due to decay, and that figure remains stubbornly high at this level for more than a decade now. That is clearly an unacceptable situation, and I hope and believe that the information that could be included in the baby box could actually be arranged dental health and should be included, encouraging parents to register their newborn child with a dentist as soon as possible, as well as brushing their baby's first teeth with a fluoride toothpaste as soon as milk teeth break through. I've asked a number of parliamentary written questions on the proposed context of the baby box and haven't received any answer to date, but what I would like to see is in summing up how this is going to be developed and the broad aspects of what will be included. An Edinburgh constituent of mine, who is an English teacher, contacted me recently regarding her positive suggestion that the box should contain a good quality baby book. She suggested to me that this would make a statement about our country's belief in literacy and show parents that it's never too early to talk to and read to their baby, and I wonder if ministers will actively consider that idea. To conclude, I welcome the debate around how we can reduce the impact of disposable nappies on our environment and how progress can be made to reduce their use. I also urge the Scottish Government to make sure that the baby box contains practical and clear advice on how parents can make sure that their babies have the healthiest possible start to life. Thank you very much, Mr Riggsgeal. Ross, we follow by Claire Baker. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm also delighted that Ivan McKee has brought this debate before us today. Like Marie, as a user of reusable nappies with my son, I understand both the benefits and the challenges of using them. I was first introduced to reusable nappies in the maternity ward at Caithness General Hospital. The midwives are excellent, they are patient and kind, and they explained everything that I needed to know. I then contacted the Highland real nappie project to ask for more information. They travel around the region meeting pregnant ladies and new mums to answer any questions about using cloth nappies and give out a starter kit, which includes a nappie pail, a couple of different types of nappies, waterproof covers and liners. As Ivan mentioned, real nappies have come a long way since the teretailing squares and big pins of the past. No more does a new mother have to struggle with a squirming bairn correctly folding the nappie and worrying where the pin is going to end up. The nappies are nappie-shaped, have velcro or popper fastenings and removable inserts that are either washable or biodegradable. You do have to be prepared for a lot of washing, but it is small consideration given the benefits of using real nappies. My son had zero nappie rash in the two years that we used them. They are much more cost-effective in the long term and the initial outlay does not have to be that much either, as there are a lot of second hand bundles for sale on the internet. They are better for the environment, as has been mentioned in greatly reduced landfill, and my old neighbour was delighted to regularly see a line full of nappies drying on a nice day. Offering new parents a baby box shows the commitment that the Scottish Government has to early years and preventative spend. We all know that giving our children the best start in life prevents future social difficulties and saves Governments millions of pounds in later interventions, such as in health and justice. Nobel prize winner James Heckman states that early interventions have much higher returns than other later interventions, such as reduced pupil-teacher ratios, public job training, convict rehabilitation programmes, tuition subsidy or expenditure on police. Finland's baby box has been providing support for mothers and babies for over 75 years, and in that time, as Ivan McKee has mentioned, infant mortality rates have dropped considerably, and the social benefits are almost immeasurable. Here is a little taster of what they provide, and maybe what we could think about providing. Mattresses, undersheets, duvet covers, snowsuits in Scotland, hats, mittens, booties, knitted overalls, socks and mittens, body suits, romper suits, all-in unisex colours and patterns, towels, hair brushes, baby thermometers, nappy cloths, toothbrushes, muslin squares, picture books, reading books, a teathing toy, brapads and condoms. In 2006, real nappies were reintroduced to the Finnish baby box, but the baby bottle was left out to encourage breastfeeding. Can I just make the point that even breastfeeding mothers sometimes do things that don't involve their little ones? When I was breastfeeding my son, I attended three weddings throughout that summer, and I wouldn't have been able to do so if I hadn't expressed milk and kept it in reserve for such occasions. Therefore, use of a bottle for the babysitter was essential, but can I also suggest that things like a breast pump, little freezer bags for milk and sore nipple cream be included as well? I've recently learned that the baby box has already been distributed in one instance in Scotland. Thanks to the kind-hearted nurses in the theatre department recovery room in Dumfries and Galloway royal infirmary, one of the nurses received her very own baby box as a gift when she went on maternity leave. The excitement that it caused brought the mother-to-be friends and staff members together, and it's proof that the baby box not only provides much-needed material goods but promotes wellbeing, social contact and should be welcomed by all sides of this chamber, including the inclusion of renewable nappies. Thank you very much. I call Claire Baker to be followed by Alison Harris. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to speak in this evening's debate, and I congratulate Ivan McKee on securing the debate. When the statistics for disposable nappies are presented, it can make you wish that they had never been invented. With the average baby getting through 5,000 nappies, that results in some 400 tonnes of waste every year going to landfill, which is 2 to 3 per cent of all household waste, and a huge cost to our local authorities. As well as that, they present challenges to household waste collections as councils move to smaller bins and less frequent collections, and it's a typical complaint from constituents. The manufacturing process for disposable nappies uses large volumes of pulp, paper, plastic and other raw materials, as well as a significant amount of water and energy. Most disposable nappies are not very biodegradable, with many reports suggesting that they make up to 30 per cent of non-biodegradable waste, and that a nappie that is thrown away today won't decompose until the 21st century. There are also concerns over contamination in landfill, and those issues are not set to decrease as many of the companies are looking to expand into new international markets where there is not a tradition of using disposable nappies. However, many parents would not wish that they hadn't been invented. They have become a part of modern parenting, and as the demands of parenting become a reality, disposable nappies become one less thing to worry about, so to change the situation in a significant way is a challenge. I did choose to use real nappies for my daughter, and I was probably a typical example of someone who does, and I suspect that this chamber has a higher than average percentage than your usual workplace for people who use the nappies. I was environmentally aware, I had a good income, and I was a more mature parent. I did the research. For some people, it is not a clear-cut issue. There are arguments that the production, the washing and the drying of real nappies take you to the same place as disposables, and that the costs are the same, but the initial outlay is much more difficult at a time when money is tight. There are also arguments that the energy costs of production of disposables are then balanced by the energy costs of washing and drying real nappies, which can be too expensive for some families. However, on balance, I accepted the argument that real nappies were the more environmental and responsible decision, and it is the one that I was fortunate enough to be able to make. Real nappies could be an option on a lower income, and you do save money with every subsequent baby. Almost every new parent receives lots of baby clothes—more clothes than the baby can possibly wear. Requesting a real nappie rather than an outfit might be an option, but that still needs organisation and commitment to the idea. It is important to have support and advice. Thankfully, given the subject of the debate, I used top-bot nappies, but I was grateful for the advice from the online nappy lady. I also had friends who were using real nappies, and I lived in Edinburgh at the time, and I had shops that had a selection and gave advice. If parents are going to make the decision, advice and support on products is important. That is one of the reasons why I have some reservations about the proposal for including a real nappie in the baby box. I am not sure that the decision to use real nappies is one that you take when the baby is born. For me, it was one that had to be planned for, and I had to have a commitment to it. I would have concerns that a real nappie in the box might be unused or at worse end up in landfill, but I would have been interested and open to the suggestions that have been made. The baby box has an interesting history. It was introduced in Finland in 1938 for low-income families before being rolled out to everybody in 1949. In the 1930s, Finland had a high infant mortality rate. Legislation was introduced to bring the box that mothers had to visit a doctor or a municipal prenatal clinic before the fourth month of pregnancy, steering them into the emerging welfare system and national health service, thus raising the health outcomes for babies and families. Scotland has a very different starting place today, so we should think about what the baby box is trying to achieve. An increase in the use of real nappies would need a cultural change and maybe a voucher in the box with contact details of a local network would be a sensible way forward. In my own area, the Fife real nappie network, run by volunteers, provides advice and support for parents. I am very supportive of the use of real nappies and support parents to make that decision. I agree that there is potential for the baby box to play a role in this that should be considered and encourage more parents to think about making the change. I am delighted to speak in this debate and add my own congratulations to Totspots, an innovative and award-winning company that is proud to advertise the fact that all their products are made in the United Kingdom, indeed, as the mover of the motion points out in the great city of Glasgow. Even a quick look at their website will show how reusable nappies have moved on from the days when my own children were babies, when pin-held, leaking terry-toweling was the option, and a course in nappy origani would have been very helpful. Today, colourful, shaped, easy to fit, reusable nappies offer a fashionable and practical alternative to disposibles. I hesitate to call any nappy cute, but some modern re-usables do come pretty close. As a mother, I appreciate the time constraints, the needs and resources of busy parents, as well as the requirements of individual babies can vary enormously. The pace of life continues to quicken, and the convenience of disposable nappies is something that has a huge benefit to many parents. Because every family has different circumstances, I strongly believe that the choice of nappy is best left to the individual mums and dads. However, I have no issue, and indeed I would encourage, the advantages and disadvantages of both types being properly aired in order that parents can make informed choices. The motion is correct to highlight the environmental issues raised by disposable nappies. An astonishing 8 million disposibles are used in the UK every day. They now comprise 4 per cent of all material sent to landfill, take decades to degrade and yet upwards of 90 per cent of parents still use them. They are the default nappy of choice and figures show that they have an even higher usage amongst lower-income families. Despite the fact that over a typical child's usage of 4,000 to 5,000 nappies, disposibles are typically £500 more expensive than reusable nappies depending on the washing and drying methods used. Of course, the choice for many families may not be one or the other, but a combination of the two types of nappies depending on daily circumstances. I mentioned earlier how reusable nappies are a world away from how they used to be back when I had my children, but I wonder if every new parent or nursery appreciates that fact. Moving on to the proposed Scottish baby box, an idea originating in pre-war Scandinavia, that could well be used to introduce modern reusable nappies to a new generation of parents here in Scotland, particularly those parents whom figures show are the most resistant to abandoning disposibles. I believe that a case can be made to make best use of the available resources by especially targeting those groups who would benefit the most. At a reported cost of £100 per box, some savings could be made by targeting those groups. Some of the savings made by targeting those groups could be used to address reported concerns over how stable the baby boxes may be for the baby to sleep in and to improve the provision of health and nutritional information, particularly in those areas that have low rates of breastfeeding as well as low usage of reusable nappies. Those are suggestions that I hope can be looked at, but are no way meant to detract from the laudable aims of this motion, a motion presiding officer that I am very happy to support this afternoon. Baby boxes have multiple opportunities to engender a behavioural shift in so many areas that will benefit a whole range of desirable outcomes. The contents of the box are a huge responsibility. Space in the box is finite, as I am often reminded of when I spoke to the Minister of Theatre and other suggestions on what can be included in its contents. The box is not the size of a box that a washing machine goes in or it is not a baby wardrobe, it is a baby box. In short, what we put in that box has to count. It has to earn its place there, and the proposal that reusable nappies take up some of that precious space hits a number of targets. The most compelling one for me is the cost issue for families, particularly when so many new families are struggling to meet ends. You take the cost of using disposable nappies over a two-and-a-half-year period. My figure that I got to today was £800. You compare that with the cost of reusable nappies. If a family were to invest in a starter pack of around 20 nappies, the cost would put them in the family washing. We are looking around about £205 a year, and that is a significant saving. You can use the nappies, as Claire Baker mentioned, for successive babies. It is a one-time outlay, regardless of how many children you have. I am going to fess up here. I did not use them because I could not afford that outlay when I had my son. The fact of putting them in the box is going to be a significant change in that issue. For the vast majority of parents, the issue around nappies comes down to how much money and how much hassle. I have talked about the money side, but when you are tired as new parents absolutely are all the time. The hassle question is just as important. I have spoken to a good few parents over the years who have used reusable nappies, and they are brutally honest. Yes, it is easier to chuck a nappie in the bin to the next one from the pack, but, like anything worth doing, patients pay off and their routine is fallen into with reusable nappies. Reusables require a bit of a mindset change, but once you start, as has been mentioned by Mary Todd, you get used to them, and they are just as convenient as disposables. The resistance to them is often inherited. Stories of pans boiling, telly-telling nappies—Allison has just mentioned that, and the Allison has just mentioned that—are off-putting. I was trying to be gentle about this, if you could give the members full name for the official report. The official report cannot just say Allison. I know that that is why I said that Allison had it straight afterwards. By including reusable samples in a baby box, we are offering the chance to shift public habit and opinion, even if the use of disposables and reusable is a combination that has been mentioned. If we look to other nations that have provided reusable nappie samples at New Zealand, you will see that the take-up of so-called real nappies is 95 per cent, which maybe will answer some of Clare Baker's concerns. If we look at what is in the box in Finland, it leads me on to that I am going to shoehorn some other item that I would like in my wish list that is going to not take up too much space, I hope. The baby box is also an opportunity to protect our new mum's health, so I cannot really sit down without mentioning what I think is very much an important issue here for public health, and that is access to new mum's maternity pads. I think that they should get their place in the box, too. For all new mothers, changing maternity pads frequently in the days after childbirth is really important, 70 to 80 per cent of new mum's get tears in their perineum during childbirth, and the resulting stitches must be kept clean in order to prevent infection. Sepsis is a very real danger and is a leading cause of maternal death in the UK, and wound infection is responsible for around 15 per cent of sepsis cases. Sepsis, of course, is an extreme outcome, but lack of healing due to infection can also present a range of health issues for the new mum that can lead to them feeling generally unwell at an already vulnerable time at a key point in newborn's life. Again, it is also a poverty issue. If a mum is struggling financially, she will go without personal items and use what means she has to provide essential for babies and might not be looking after herself. I am sorry that I am running over time, but I hope that my point is well made. You have indeed made very good points. Mr Ruskell, you are the last speaker, and I move to the minister. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I also welcome this debate tonight and congratulate Ivan McKee for securing it? I think that it is a timely debate because, of course, we have a Scottish Government strategy on the circular economy. We have got this early intervention policy of the baby box as well, which is incredibly welcome. I think that real nappies can make a valuable contribution to the success of both of those policies. In the early noughties, we saw a real growth in real nappy networks, providing support and advice to families. I was involved with the launch of the Perture 1, and I think that it has been very successful. On the back of that, we have seen a number of social enterprises as well. Social enterprises providing laundry and collection facilities for parents, but also then working to other areas. Re-use, recycling of toys, of children's furniture, of clothing, of books, of saving parents money and diverting waste from landfill. I pay tribute to a number of organisations, social enterprise in Scotland that are going today, such as Merrigo Round in Glasgow, Kinderhandle, Everything Baby in Inverness, and also Good Green Fun in Sterling, who have literally had trailer loads of stuff coming from the Ruskell family loft over the years, only for trailer loads of stuff to come back in again. We used real nappies successfully ourselves with our two sons. My eldest son did develop a skin condition temporarily. We went back to using disposables, but what I noticed at that point was the big impact on our bin, because when we were using the real nappies, our bin was half full on collection day. When we went back to using disposables, it was overflowing again, and it's just dramatic to see the difference. I think that, as Claire Baker said, that's a real issue today because councils are making significant increases in recycling, but we're also seeing a reduction in landfill and a reduction in the cycles of collection and the sizes of the bins as well. That pressure, that space for landfill, is rightly getting smaller and smaller. One solution that's been proposed is to recycle nappies. There was a pilot that was run in Sterling several years ago. It involved a collection system. Plastic can be recovered. It can be produced amazingly into garden furniture, amongst other items. It's probably a better option than landfill, but I don't see it as an effective waste minimisation measure. I don't think it's the best environmental option either. I know that with the pilot that ran in Sterling, the nappies were getting shipped down to the Midlands and England, so clearly an environmental impact there. I think that the promotion of real nappies has slipped over the last couple of years. I hear that Gail Ross has very positive experience in the Highlands, but I think there are issues with nurseries and the NHS providing very patchy support for the roll-outs of real nappies, which I think is a shame because the technology is improving. I think real nappies are on the market now compared to 10 years ago, a less bulky, better at moisture retention, easier to wash. Of course, the baby box is a fantastic idea and it's perhaps a key point where we can influence behaviour change as well. Whenever our life circumstances change, there's an opportunity to influence behaviour change. Many members have spoken tonight about the impact in Finland, how the baby box is there, slash mortality rates. What's also interesting about the Finnish example is that Finnish parents are now offered a cash equivalent. They can take, I think, 140 euros in cash, all the baby box, but you still get 95 per cent of parents going for the baby box. That underlines that strong culture in Finland of social welfare. Parents receive goodie bags from new parents from the National Childbirth Trust and the NHS, but it makes sense to include real nappies within the baby box and offer this programme of support and encouragement for new parents. I'm very interested to hear the minister's response not just about real nappies in the baby box but also about the wider social economy of which this is part of, how we can support organisations to reuse and repair toys and critically to save hard push parents' money as well. Thank you very much. I call on Mark McDonald to respond. You have seven minutes and perhaps you'll tell us whether we require a bigger baby box, given all the suggestions made tonight. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I thank Ivan McKee for taking this important issue to the chamber today. Given the number of speakers who have taken part, the importance and significance of the baby box and its contents has been highlighted as part of that. The First Minister announced the plan for the baby box in her priorities for government speech to Parliament on 25 May. As members have highlighted, it builds on the example of the finished model. We estimate that that will cost around £6 million per year to deliver. We are looking for the box to be a celebration of childhood, a much-valued gift from the Government, recognising the importance of the task of parenting. In addition, there will be a strong focus on maternal and infant health, and, given the universal offer, a robust statement of equality for all of our citizens from birth. It would be an idea to go through some of the issues that have been raised by the speakers in today's debate. I probably cannot cover everything that has been said, because we would be here for quite some time, Presiding Officer. I know how strict you are in terms of the timing of debates, but I will do my best to cover some of the main issues that have been raised. I give a commitment that, if members feel that there are issues that I maybe have not had the chance to respond to, if they write to me about those, I will be more than happy to provide a more fulsome response in due course. I think that Ivan McKee set out the— Minister, I have been advised that I can give you another two minutes if you wish to— We will see how we get on, Presiding Officer, shall we? Ivan McKee set the tone for the debate and highlighted quite correctly the issues that real nappies can address in terms of the issues around the environment, the issues around support for small and medium-sized businesses. He also mentioned the issue around the poverty trap. I think that there were a number of important speeches in relation to that, comparing the upfront cost of reusable nappies versus the perhaps higher cost in the longer term of disposables, but the fact that those are not paid for all-in-one go-up front. I think that Clare Baker made a couple of important points in relation to that in the sense that the cost of reusable nappies should not just be measured in terms of the cost that you pay for the nappies themselves. There are obviously the associated energy costs that will come with the washing and potentially drying of those nappies. Obviously, in many of the households that we are looking to support in helping to lift them out of poverty, fuel poverty is a very real consideration and something that we have to bear in mind to. However, I think that the point that Ivan McKee made about that was well made, that sometimes the upfront cost masks the lifetime cost by comparison. Miles Briggs made a number of asks, some of which he will be aware and members will be aware. I cannot commit to everything that is going to be in the baby box. What I can say is that the points that members have raised will be fed into the considerations that we as a Government are taking. In terms of his point about dental decay, we have a very good child smile programme and we will give active consideration to how best we can support parents in order to ensure that they are playing an active role in terms of the oral health of their children. I think that one of the things that I want to be very careful about in relation to the baby box is that we do not just have it as a box that is full of pamphlets and leaflets offering advice and support to parents through those methods, because often those are the kind of things that parents will maybe pick up and put down rather than actively supporting parents to perhaps take a different approach to the one that might otherwise be the case. While I hear what Miles Briggs has said about putting in information pamphlets and leaflets, I would say that we will certainly consider that, but I would have a concern if we ended up with a box that was essentially stuffed full of leaflets rather than perhaps items of practical use such as those that are provided within the finished baby box. Marie Todd brought to us the figure of 8 million nappies being changed every day and with most of those being disposable, that is an awful lot of nappies potentially going to landfill. The point was made by a number of members around the Zero Waste Scotland looking at the potential for recycling of disposable nappies. I hear the points that Mr Ruskell makes, but, in reality, we are going to be in a situation where, even if we were to get significantly increased the uptake on real nappies, there will still be parents out there who have to use disposable nappies. I think that it is right and proper that we look at the ways in which we can better deal with disposable nappies and whether there are options around recycling and possibly even I am aware that some companies produce disposable nappies that are claimed on the packet to be biodegradable, whether that bears witness in terms of how they actually perform in those circumstances has yet to be fully ironed out. Alison Harris and a number of other speakers did make the point that, often when we talk about real nappies, it does, for some people, conjure up that image of the huge terry towel and sheets and the safety pins. However, we have moved on, and I, like a number of members in the chamber, used reusable nappies with my son, and I was struck by how easy and simple they were to use—often quite messy, but that is the nature of babies—but, nonetheless, I think that there is a job of work to be done in relation to that. Gil Ross and Gillian Martin brought a number of other items that are worthy of consideration in relation to what might go in the baby box. Obviously, as I have said before, I cannot give a commitment to whether those items will go in, but I think that they have put forward the case appropriately. Mark Ruskell kind of veered off slightly at the end when he talked about other issues that we needed to look at in terms of how do we ensure that, for example, toys can be reused or repurposed. Often, what I find with my children is that, while I might think that a toy is broken, it still provides a lot of fun and enjoyment for children. Sometimes, we need to look at things less through the eyes of the parent and more through the eyes of the child in the sense that, often provided that it is safe, many toys that may seem not to work anymore are still enjoyed and played with by children, and perhaps being a little bit less hasty to throw them out might encourage some of the issues that Mr Ruskell was raising to be addressed. The important thing for us to consider is what is the aim in relation to the baby box, what is the defining purpose that we have established as why we are bringing the baby box forward. It is essentially to give all of our children the best start in life. While I cannot say to members at this precise moment what the contents of the baby box will be, I can commit that we are continuing to explore the options that have been highlighted in the debate this evening and other options that have been written to me by members across the chamber. I would just temper expectations and say that we have obviously got to bear in mind the dimensions of the box and the fact that parents have got to actually be able to get it in the car and get it home, so we have to bear that in mind as well. That will obviously be a factor in terms of what we can include. I also want to make sure that we include a range of items, so it probably would not be possible, for example, if we did take the decision around reusable nappies to put in a significant number, because that would be a space constraint that might mean that we could not include other items. However, I will give active consideration to what has been suggested in the debate tonight. I will be continuing to discuss this with officials. As always, if members want to write to me, I am happy to consider the issues that they raise, but I cannot at this stage give a guarantee in terms of what the contents will be, but all the issues that are being raised this evening are under active consideration. I close this meeting.