 Hello everyone, I am Mansi Sharma, Senior Correspondent with Exchange for Media and I welcome you all once again to another panel in our Khan's series. As we touched upon during the last discussion, that winning a Khan's Lions being an Indian participant is not an easy task at all. Of the times you have to deal with a lot of Western buyers, then there are cultural hesitations in putting your point across to the jury. But still there have been so many cases that Indian contingent has picked so many Lions for us. And today we have some of the most profound guests with us who have picked the Lions, some of them have also been a part of the jury in the past. And today they'll be talking about their crowning moments, their winning glories and how did they do it? Let's start with introducing the panel. First of all, we have Kainaz and Harshad, the Chief Creative Officer at Ogilvy India, which is arguably one of the most successful agencies at Khan's. Their best tent has been picking nine Lions together in 2017. And for me personally, some of their most amazing works have been with May Club not Scars. Next in we have Josie Paul, the Chairman and Chief Creative Officer at BBDU India, who has been on a consistent winning spree. And three of his agency's campaigns were named in Lions Creativity Report of the Decade last year as well, including the much celebrated Share the Lord, which is in the running this year as well. Then we have Ramanuj Shastri, the Director at CCO Infectious Advertising, who too, with his extensive career, spreading across agencies like Ogilvy, McCann and Cubelesses has hold several Lions in his hands. Then he has also been a part of the Khan's jury in the past. Then we have Santosh Padi, the co-founder and CCO of Taproot Dentsu, who is also quite habitual of picking the Lions almost every year he has one new on his shelves to boast of. Next we have Rajdeep Agdas, the CEO and CCO at Leo Burnett South Asia. Among his other laurels, his work for Whisper Touch the Pickle had won the inaugural Khan's Lions Grand Prix for India. And it was a great campaign that broke the menstruation taboo in India. And then we have Santhil Kumar, the Chief Creative Officer at Vendaman Thompson India. He also got India's first Golden Film and Filmcraft Lions years ago, and since then his winning spree hasn't stopped. I welcome all of you and thank you so much for giving your time to the panel today. Thanks Pansi. Thanks Pansi. Thanks Pansi. We'll start with discussion first of all one by one by knowing which has been your favourite winning moment or your favourite campaign that has picked the lion. We'll start with Josie because he's first on my screen. Okay, thank you guys. Is that okay if I go first? Please. Oh Josie. So you know what, we got a shock of our lives in 2015 when I was in Delhi and Ajay and I were staying together. And I get a call at the middle of the night saying that we won both the Grand Prix and the gold. I mean like man, I mean it just was unbelievable. And then they even said they would send us a private jet to get us to Cannes. And it was like what's happening and I remember Ajay is such a peaceful quiet guy but even he was screaming like a madman. And then yeah, this was for the campaign, share the load and touch the pickle which I worked with Raj. And then of course yeah, we never got, my passport was not expired so I lost all chance of going to Cannes. So we watched it from the office and it was great to be together as a team. But that entire two days of magic where I couldn't tell anyone that we had won it because it was a secret. So holding a secret for that long and that's what I remember most, holding on to that secret till the news was announced. So yeah, for me that was a beautiful thing also because it was the inaugural glass lion. It was something very close to my heart, it was something that I believed in and the work we had done that year for both touch the pickle and share the load to gain recognition was unbelievable. I still can't believe it. Okay, for me it'll always be the first film and film craft goal lines for India that we won Nakomuka a day in the life of Chennai. I think that was the most defining moment, not just at Cannes for me but in my career as well. And I think it sort of gave me one platform and confidence in film, which I've tried to sort of build on and every year try something different in film. Try something unique, try something Indian and gave me all that hope and it was fantastic to hear a Tamil song play on the Cannes stage and everybody applaud. Tamil being my mother tongue and it's usually Hindi out there when we send a piece other than English. I mean it's largely less of the language work gets to an international festival. So I think that was the most defining moment and there's a famous Tamil song by Rajni, all of you know Rajnikanth in this movie called Murattakalai. It was one of his most defining films and the two lines of the film, I mean the song is which basically means usually my heart is gold but if there is a competition on then it becomes a lion. I think that was the, so I started ringing in my head and it's still ringing I get. It was fantastic. I don't think I've ever beaten that over to the other. Thank you. You said that there's seldom any work in Indian regional languages that make it to the Cannes, but I feel that with the quality and the quantity of work that we are generating in the direction right now from the past few years, I think we are going to see many more of them in the coming years hopefully. Next Kainas, why don't you tell us what has been your favourite moment at Cannes? Yeah, I will. So I mean for me it's very clear, we did win a Grand Prix so that will always remain really special but for me even more special was the glass lion gold because that was the first time that I walked on the stage of Cannes and I don't think I'll ever forget that moment. And we didn't know anything when we won. We were told that we got a mail from Cannes saying we have won a gold and two people can go on stage. And we were all sweating saying two people but we have four people team who will go on stage, this one will go and that one will go and then Piyush the Diney. They come and say hello to everyone. And we didn't know then that everyone would be allowed because we were so new to the whole thing. So we gave everybody's name and we reached there early so that in case we had to fight to go in and they just ticked off our names in the letter since we were like super thrilled to sit there. So that was most memorable for me. Also I want to say Josie was on that jury. So thank you Josie. Thank you Kainas. Tantosh. Yeah I think me being a passionate adrector craft guy I'd pick up the Times of India Farm or Suicide campaign. Many stories around it. It picked up four gold that year across categories. So an interesting story. I walked on the stage to pick up the outdoor lines. It had picked up two outdoor goals one for media publication one for craft. And unfortunately I missed out the announcement that they will be clubbing both the awards together one will be given and one you have to collect backstage so I was like completely getting up to go on the stage. So when I walked on the stage Tony Granger just who was the jury president he just handed over one line to me. So it's a can go lion winning moment and I am a little upset because I'm searching where is the second goal in his hand. I'm looking at that girl who usually brings the can gold on the plate. I'm looking at her. She's not coming back. So I was like little thank you. I mean every where it's announced is too good why they're giving one goal to me. So I just came a little upset little grumpy because this line's like toy for all kind of guys. I said mera toya a kilo na goom gaya kik mil nera aki hathama ki bej ria moje. So I came then somebody told me later on saying he's the second one you have to go and pick it up from the backstage once the awards season is over. So I think that's one interesting snippet that stage will stay forever in my head. So, besides the year of Biklav Nautzka's that Kena touched upon, I would like to recount the next year after that, immediately after 2016, the 2017 Lions, which was by far the richest hall where, as you mentioned, we came back with nine Lions, would be a bit incorrect. We were here in Bombay only because that was one of the years when we really couldn't send anybody, including ourselves to camp, of course, various reasons, budgeting, so on and so forth. And I think there is some sort of, like, you know, there's some divine justice to it, quite like Josie Sturdy when he was in Bombay and those wonderful news blasts were coming in from there. Similarly, in our case, we were probably the only, we were winning really big that time, we had no clue we would win like that big, we were all loving that piece because it had already picked up DNA, DNAs, one shows and so on and so forth. But we were all here, the first day was a Sunday and we started getting messages from everybody that we knew and seeing that it's one in health, next day it's one in design, third day doesn't, and by far like we picked up multiple golds, multiple silvers, multiple bronzes and we were all here, either in Bakola in Bombay or Bandra or Malad or wherever. And everybody from our fraternity was saying, where the hell are you guys, Yola? Ruling the show and nobody's here. But luckily, due to my friend Paddy over here, I at least have pictures of that place from the auditorium. Paddy would diligently clicked every time we won and what's happened to me from Cannes. And again, I don't know where to make it there, you all should have been here. I mean, we are glad at least like Piyush was there and he could pick up the two golds on stage. That would be my memorable year. Ramanuj. Hi, my memorable year would be the goal that we picked up for Tundam at the Kokala print. And it was more a validation of the fact that a campaign which was not necessarily got the OK of the big boys and which was supposed to be a small, original side show, which suddenly becomes such a big, big thing. And the pictures were from like in a barber shop and there was a guy with those things that you were to have with. And it just went Tundam at the Kokala and I realized that cultural context is such an important thing. And they get the joke and everybody gets the humor, everybody gets the subtlety. And in fact, it's fresh because it's so different because nobody, we are, we are as a people who repurpose things and Kokala bottles still remain cool even after long after the Coca-Cola is over. And I think they got that and it was delightful that the jury from all over the world got that joke. That's interesting. Raj Deepak. Yeah, I think mine was not winning one. So I'll tell you why. I remember the year we had, I think that is exactly four years back, we had Bajaj V going into Cannes. And the best is every Indian guy says dude, it's going to win big, it's going to win big. And the end of the award, so you had won bronze because everyone killed it. It's a war story and a war is not good and everything. Because see, it's a war is, we have not fought a war, every different in our country. But for the world, it was a war story, but the fun was not that. You got a bronze, you're so angry because you didn't win anything. I start walking. Unlike Paddy, I don't know how to work like that or run and everything. Start walking in the Cannes and one side of work, then I walk 15 kilometers. So I came back and remember, I ended up at back in Cannes by night two o'clock because I walked one side 15 and work back one side 15. Till like, you know, everyone says dude, you're missing and everything. I left my phone, I says no, I just walked because I was so angry that we didn't win. For a brand that you felt that it's so important for the nation, you build a brand and very few marketing campaign build brands. And this is the first time marketing campaign build a brand, Bajaj V. Till next year, you win the Black Lion gold, effectiveness gold. Have Joji said, na wo bichara kya hota na kabhi kabhi ek campaign ko na, teen baar agni pariksa mein jaana partha hai. Ek ba creativity mein, ek ba effective ish ne, Batweb KPM ji jaata hai. Work just in, then black ho jaata hai. But the joy was not winning. The joy was not winning, but you thought it's very important for India, but the world won't give a damn about your work. And I think that's the beauty of it. I think winning, we had it next year, but the not winning, the anger, the sadness, I think that makes you feel more alive for that. I think that's my motto for me. Okay, that's interesting. Before I go on to my next question, there's an interesting question from Aviral Jain in the audience. He's saying that it is commonly said that to win an international award, India tends to indulge in a bit of poverty poured. What are your comments? Anyone who would like to take that? So can you repeat again, Hari? So he's saying that to win an international award, India tends to indulge in a bit of poverty poured, sort of like showing the poor or like the negative side of India more. Some sad students that they have a better chance of winning. I can only speak about what we've done, right? I don't know. I don't know if that is. I will somehow agree and disagree in two ways and tell you why I disagree with that because either it is Kanal's work on the Sablon that I'm a big fan of it is or it's a job of touch the pickle that we did in what you call that. I think Josie and we worked on on India but it can be video or we did when you did a lot of Dastam in India. See, we are actually telling the human solution. All the idea come to solve Indian problem and when you saw this problem, beautiful problem and beautiful people, it's not a poverty. It's the solution of that area and they're getting a solution for that. So when you see it, it's not poverty upon. It's actually showing what the problem actual problem is and if you don't show the actual problem is, you don't know what a solution is. If you don't show what is the, if they're writing a chalk, it can solve the problem. It's not poverty upon. It's actually telling this is the problem and this is the solution for everywhere what you have done. I think if the visual is that, if you look at Bajaj, it was a beautiful visual or it was like a lot of Paddy's work that we've done in, I think Adidas. It's beautifully shot. It's not poverty all the time. It's what we are going to talk about it that time, all the Nike work. I think one of our favorite pieces of work like every year count is brilliantly shot and brilliantly done. All those pieces of work also got the beauty of India. I think it's always about what the context is and what you're going to find a solution for that and that becomes the front of it. Doesn't matter what it is, poverty or it is beauty or it is cricket or it is sports. I think you put that in the front. I agree with him. Also, I feel there is one other thing which people always forget and they always are very hard on advertising but not on cinema, which is that every piece that you do will always reflect the culture of the place that you live in. So, if you go to see one of the most acclaimed films in the world is bicycling. Does that mean it is peddling poverty? It is not. It is reflecting what is happening in society and writing a beautiful story about it. So many of Satyajit Ray's films are set with a very poor background but people are not so hard on them. But when it comes to advertising, everybody has to sort of sit with a highly critical lens and try to find that almost a forced exploitation angle to every single thing. But I don't believe it is true and I also feel that if you are going to solve a problem, then you have to take a problem that exists. Like for example, if water is an issue in India and you make a film reflecting the water issue of India, how is that exploitation? It is taking it and it is reflecting it and nobody would even think it is exploitation. Had it not won an award but when it wins an award, then it automatically gets categorized as oh but it was done for awards, which may well not be the case. I'll just add a bit. I think as a nation, I think what Raj and Ken has absolutely bang on, I'll just add to it. I think as a nation, we have too many social issues in our country and as both these guys said, we advertising is there to solve a problem. If the nation has too many problems, we need to address it. If you look at 90% of the work that is winning at Canon and everywhere else, they are all related. Even brands are doing social work these days, are getting a social twist to all the brands, to the services that they are into. Why? Because beat gun violence, beat black life matters, last three years winning big for US. I think they are not being questioned. We are being questioned because our narrative has not been right. For all these years, we have not told those stories in a wonderful way or maybe they have not cut ice in awards. But the minute it goes and wins, I think that issue gets further solved because the kind of PR those award worthy work gets, it automatically reaches the common people via the social media and they get solved. So I think the more social issues we address, it's better for our society. How do we do it? It's a challenge. We need to have our narrative fixed. We need to tell our story very well. In past many years, we have not done that very well. Maybe that's the reason many guys are looking at, I would say. But I think we need to address and think it's a way of giving back to the society. I will once you'll add a small thing. You know what? Harsat, something happened in my office and I was telling my creative team, find some nice images of India. And one of them I said, take pictures of Harsat. That shows that it's the beautiful image of India. It's not the poverty of India. It's a beautiful image that is smiling at it. I live it every day. It's my life. When I get out of my house or it's my house on the same image, I see it every day. I think that's the beauty of it. I think it's a poverty. It's what we live in. The world we see, but it's part of our life. The music in the background? That's part of us. Yeah, that's not my background. Are you guys hearing it? Yeah, I can hear it. That's what's happening to me. We are all hearing it. It's a rollercoaster. Someone from the audience. It's a rollercoaster. I think Raj's earphone is leaking. He's a very big one. I think that's the materialistic. It's coming from somewhere. Yeah, it is coming from somewhere. I'm alone in a quiet room. 2020 and 2021. Somebody is listening to the CAN broadcast. Yeah, I think so. Oh, isn't mine. Let me take out my browser's open sound. No, it's not mine. No, it's not mine. I think the CAN live streaming has started on somebody's computer. Let me check if it's mine. Sorry, it was me. I realized it. No problem. Yeah, I was right, Raj. 45. It was 45. Moving on. About the culture context, we had in the discussion our last panel. We were discussing it in the last panel as well. We were chatting about how to present your entries to cancer. How do you pick your entries? Which entries to send? There are also this discussion about the cultural context, including stories about poverty or many other social issues that we have in India came up. So, do you think while presenting your case to the jury, it actually helps to have certain sort of cultural context to your advertisements? Anyone who would like to take, Josie, why don't you start? You're talking about case studies that you can share with clarity? Yeah. So, I mean, when we did the case study for Touch the Pickle, it was the most complicated thing to share with an international audience which is so diverse. Even within the country, it becomes very sort of confusing because these are such nuanced sort of stories and layered. How do you tell people about this? So, one of the things that I did was after I wrote the basic case study and did a rough one, I shared it with people across the world, friends I knew and they started telling me we don't understand anything. So, then I tried again. Again, they said we are not getting it. So, it took me at least four to five different versions before the point about what say Raj and I had done could come through to the people across the world. And then finally, our Creative Council helped us say maybe if you help people understand these taboos which nobody is getting, you'll be able to get through. And that's how slowly layer by layer we built on it. It's like craft. It takes time and you can't assume what's in your head is going to be in someone else's point of view. So, it takes that. And for me, that learning also came partly because of something I did with the work that Paddy and Agir done for Mumbai Mirror. Because I think when I deconstructed the film because we had decided on main stage not to share our work but to share what we feel was the best work in the country and so I chose Mumbai Mirror. I am Mumbai. And that process I went through in interviewing the people who had made it and then I went and deconstructed it. It showed me that people are willing to understand the nuances. And Raj will tell you about the Japanese guy who was sitting next to him. He almost wanted to commit Harakiri because he was so like when crazy about what is happening in Mumbai, like for the film. And so I think there is a way to reach out. There is a way to reach out. And I think our role is to be that ambassador, that bridge, that cultural exchange person. And for me, that experience both with what Paddy and Agir done and the work we did with Tash the Pickle allowed me to reach out to an audience that may not understand. Raj, you would like to add something to that? Yeah, I think very interesting thing that you asked, like with this spikes, we are having chat with Phil Thomas on this thing. You know, the biggest problem with Asia is when Raj, you close connection. While he reconnects, anyone else? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? It's sorry, my internet. Yeah. So I think we're having a very interesting chat with Phil Thomas in spikes on exactly the same thing. Asia used to win 18% of metals. And now that will five years have gone to 10% of metals. Now that shows how much decline has happened, except if you take a New Zealand and Australia out of it. The reason is how we tell our context to the world. And we're discussing about it because either you see all the country in Asia have very strong culture. And it's wrong to also say the world don't understand our culture. If you see Cambodia at the work from Colombia or Puerto Rico or East Timor, they're telling a story and the world has been democratized now. Sorry, Kansas has been democratized. If you think that was the time, US, UK, Brazil and Australia and Japan used to be those five countries used to win metals. But now, East Timor, Pakistan, Vietnam, Cambodia, like you see the kind of stories, the human stories they're coming out of. I think most important thing is the problem is the same. Every country have the problem is the same. But how simplified you tell the problem in the first 15 seconds. It's very important. Like in press, I think Paddy told me a very interesting thing, Raj, those second you can stop anyone, you know that you've got a checklist. Remember Paddy and me had a chat with once in a while and he says, the same way, if the contextual problem has been told in the first five to 10 seconds and talk about how big is the problem. It's like TED Talk, you talk about the story, you told about the problem in the 15 seconds, then you have the time to explain the insight and how you're going to solve the problem. It's important. 15 seconds, tell the problem, very important. Everyone can understand it. We are very globalized now. Everyone can understand what we are. Yeah, I tend to agree because it is a multicultural, multilingual sort of audience out there, right? And the world is a stage. And without context, I mean, your concept might fall by the wayside. But like Raj is also saying, you know, the first 10 seconds, if you can crack the context and move on to what your idea is, I mean, that sort of sets it up nicely. And you really need a powerful context too, to make your idea more powerful than it is. Interesting, interesting. Ramin, as you would like to add, I guess you are the most experienced on this family, or is it shows? I just... So you will have like, how it has transformed? Do you have an idea of how it has transformed? No, so the thing is that cause is everything, okay? Causes are dominating awards across like, there was a time when Thai humor used to take 10 metals, you know, every year, you know, seven metals to Thailand for, you can, you follow the chair for the humor that is there. But more and more, the world is moving towards causes and, you know, people buy into brands and not just buying them, which means that from tokenism to really doing something, brands are jumping into the bandwagon of causes. In India, as other panelists have pointed out, our causes are very different because they're based on very cultural, you know, we have patriarchy, gender inequality at, you know, unprecedented levels. There is domestic violence. We have, we have, we have much, you know, our house needs to settle in order and more and more we'll go with these causes. But we need also to quickly put the context of it, like, you know, why is this so important? How many people does it affect what we're trying to do? And, you know, what difference are we trying to get at? But it has to be done quickly because we're talking to very impatient group of people. The jury are very smart and they're very good. Don't over explain, just do enough to wet their appetite and show them how elegantly you've solved it. And 15 minutes has to be used very, very wisely. And I had never thought, I had never thought of it, but the Josie's idea of sending your case across to all your colleagues, everywhere in the world just to do a cross check, like, you know, does it make any sense to you at all? Or it's just, you know, I'm just talking nonsense here. It would be a fantastic, I've never thought of it, but it's a beautiful way to cross check whether your explanation is making sense, you know, and that is very important. Ina, would you like to add something? Yeah, so I think a lot of good points have been made. But I'll just give a small example is that when very recently we had done a campaign on DAF, which was about arranged marriage and the pressures that women face when it comes to arranged marriage and how the women look. Now arranged marriage is a very India Asia kind of a concept. And to explain that itself could take two minutes, which is a case video duration that we have. So we came up with a real shortcut for it. And like Josie said, we send it to our international people and they got it immediately, which is we showed an animal market where animals are bought and sold and you look at a horse's ears and you look at a cow's rump and you buy it and we showed that and this is how Indian girls are looked at before getting married. And you know, when we put it like that and we sent to the case study to our international people, they got it in one second that, okay, what is arranged marriage? And this is what women are subjected to, otherwise it would have taken us two minutes to just explain what happens in arranged marriage. But that is a thing we used in case study. So I think we'll have to be creative and smart and quick about setting the context. I just want to add one more point, which is linked to what Raj very rightly said, the democratization of the biggest of shows and leading can because now actually the role reversal has also happened and I've seen certain cases where even the West, now they have realized see because this thing about Asia and Indians having to explain and go that extra mile to explain ourselves, our context to the Western Jewry, now is go longer a given. Now the Jewry comes from everywhere and there are dignified names from very professional names from India, from Japan, from Pakistan, from Thailand. So the Americans and the Brits also have to try equally hard to set the context. For example, recently I've seen so many cases of what this happened during the last election between Trump and Biden. Now, if the rest of the world is not as deeply involved in what their processes are, so they also have to take those 15 seconds to cut to the gut of things and say that in America this happens. This is why there is lethargy. This is why people don't go out. So I think now it's just, I think I agree with what Rath said. I think the democratization has ensured that it might be the Japs, it might be the Brits, it might be the Americans. Everybody now has to kind of, they can't take the ticket for granted that their case will be understood like this. So I think that's a great thing. You are a part of the Jewry this time. So what do you agree to what Harshad is saying? Yeah, I completely agree with some of the point that has been put up. But I want to say one thing, which is when you do a campaign to talk to your consumers, you talk to them in a very different narrative. The same narrative can't be put across in front of the international Jewry. We need to rig it up. We need to put it in a certain way as Josie and many other sides. We have to put a context by which they know. So it's an absolutely different narrative. Maybe you have taken two minutes, five minutes, five days, a month to talk to the consumers. But fortunately, unfortunately, you have to talk to the international Jewry in that two minute, a campaign that you have done for a good three to six months. It's unfortunate, but that's how the world is spanning. Earlier it should be five minutes for the Jewry, then Jewry don't have time. Now it's two minutes, God knows, it will be T20, it will be only giving you 30 seconds, 50 seconds. So I think the lifespan of everything is reducing. So I think most of the time it has to be fake because the two minute video that you do is actually rigged. You shoot it. Unfortunately, the craft now goes into that two minute film. It's unfortunate because the real craft is being sidelined and now the making of this two minute becomes the core of everything. So now somebody has to really champion this. If you don't have the capacity, capabilities, you reach out to somebody because you have a fantastic story to tell the world, which may fetch you award. So you have to go to reach out to some people. Some people are fortunate to reach out in a big network, but there are some people who have a good story. And I would like to tell one story about it's a decade old story. I think Chail has done a beautiful piece of work that actually can have an impact on the society a positive way. So the whole idea was, I think some of you guys will remember, it's called minus one point size. So the entire campaign was done for Samsung set of printers. So anything that you print, you reduce the point size by one. And if you print a hundred page, I think few pages will be saved. I thought was a fabulous ideas idea can be implemented any part of the world and really makes the world a better place. When I saw that case study at GoaFest, I thought this is the most powerful idea I have ever seen coming out from India. So but pathetic case study, pathetic board. So I couldn't stop myself. I called up the Delhi office when I came back from GoaFest and I said, I want to speak to the team who has created this piece of work. So the receptionist was a little hesitant, but she somehow managed and transferred the call to a guy called Vishal Sagar. He was a writer and I spoke to him and said, dude, congratulations. This is a wonderful piece of work, but you need to change the board and the case study because that's what the jury will be interacting and there are a few people who will look at the big idea and reward because those days craft or these days also craft is most important. How do you narrate that two minute story becomes a bronze or gold. So then I told him, but I think like all of us have ego. His boss also had ego. He said, no, we are not going to change everything. So he never told him that it's coming from me. So but he obviously changed few of those things and then he said, no, no few things we won't change. But big story short, obviously it went and picked up a silver and few bronzes. I mean, not because of me. I think because the idea was really, really fabulous. I just tried to clean it up. So the whole idea is if you are not capable because we all have limited strength and vision and knowledge, if you are not able to do it, I think the world is quite small. We should try and reach out to our friends, our colleagues, our networks and make sure that the idea gets maximized in that two minute. Very, very, very, very important because we make sure that we slog and make sure that that campaigns out in the most beautiful way. But unfortunately, this two minute is everything. If you cannot crack this two minute, then the chance is gone. You will never be able to enter that piece of work. No, absolutely. Just to add, it's in a way, if you look at it, it's like advertising for the advertising. And so much so that if I recall right, the show in Busan, Korea, ad stars, they actually have a category for case videos now, which are also judged creatively. So I mean, that shows us the reality. It is advertising for advertising. FEs, you have best presentation. I think Josie, you know what, I think the best person sometime is actually your planners. You know what, I mean, show it to your planners. Because what happened is a creative, we fall in love with our ideas so much that you forget sometime what you are doing. The planners pull back and says, like when I work with Dheerajan and everything, after doing it multiple times, you've been sending it to the global guys also. They pull back and says, Dheeraj kama kar raya kya, Dheeraja lai nahi isko yeh kati kati. We then do it and show it to your partner. Because they are, see, you have to see there is actually logic also. Magic, you need a logic also. And that I think so sometimes your planner's friends can give you amazingly well, including like a lot of time I have sent to people here in this group. They says, dude, I have fallen in love. Does it work? You know what, if it does the case that you work, you know, we have done it ourselves. Beautiful part is I mean, I'm sure all of you have experienced this. There are now several ideas because of the multinational nature of many of our brands. Many of your agency's foreign offices work as India relevant or Asia relevant. They do the same thing. They send their work out to us to just get a reality check whether they are being authentic. So I think it's all evening out now. What's the ideal time? But you should give to, you know, creating their case studies one by one. Whoever wants to take it first. What's the ideal time? What's the ideal duration? If not, you have to put a lot of time, then you can come up with a good case study. Santosh, why don't you start? Yeah, see, sometimes I think it just falls seamlessly. What is the problem? You need to set up the problem followed by what's the strategy or the or the insight followed by the idea and followed by the result. And the minute they fall into a such a way that it all forms, all four put together forms a beautiful story. At times that doesn't happen. At times that doesn't, as you said, you have to keep trying, keep altering, keep looking at it, maybe flatten the structure, restart everything. And at times, I think you should let it go. If things are not falling in place, I would like to again give examples. When we did Pepsi World Cup, the Cricket World Cup, changed the game followed by Airtel, her friends, that would be there. We'd never entered those pieces because we said maybe 80, 90% of the Janta won't understand what Cricket means to us. The sport that is embedded in us, it's a religion that we live. So if we are not able to tell that story to a foreigner and if he doesn't get that kind of goosebumps, then you might as well don't enter. So we never entered that piece of work after trying many things. We felt, no, it's not coming out the way those international guys will see it. And maybe there'll be one guy who will try and passionately explain what cricket means to Indians. But there are 14 other juries. They will not get it. Americans will not get it. There are three, four, five nations who play this sport. And if their representatives are not there in that room, then it's a waste. So after a point, we stop both the cases. So you need to take a gut feel saying, is it working? Not working. If it's not working, move on. Move on. I'm saying you can't be just forever behind that piece. And if it doesn't win, then you feel the pain a lot more. Yeah, I mean, the question is an important one, but it's like asking that famous question, what is the length of a string? What is the length of a string? I don't know. It is whatever you want it to be. So it is that. It all depends. It's a case by case thing. Some things like Patty said falls into place immediately. And some take time and some you struggle and you go on and on. And it just doesn't seem to fit. I know Raj and I tried to put together a big campaign we did for Gillette in 2010 or 2012. It just wasn't clicking because there was so much we had done. It was so intricate to India. There's so many layers. And like Patty said, after a point, you just let go. So it's that. So what is the length of a string? What's the length of the time you take for a case study? It's really depending on the case. I think very well said by both Patty and Josie. My answer wouldn't be very different from that. It's like how long will you take to come up with an idea? You don't know. It could come to you right now. It could come to you three weeks later. So you don't know how long. But I think a sensible pragmatic thing would be to do is to have some time for revisions because I genuinely feel that what earlier we discussed bouncing it off people, taking opinions. One must never be too overconfident about it. I think those things really help. So while I don't know what time it is, but I mean in our heads, we always go with the fact that we might need two or three alterations before we reach a case study that we are happy to enter, whether it finally wins or not is never up to you. It's about those 14, 15 people in a room. But I think it is pragmatic to have at least two, three alterations accounted for before you do it. And also I think it's important to be choiceful what these guys said that if you are, if you can really in your gut feel that this really feels like it is a winner, then put everything into it, compose music for it, do whatever you need to do for it. But don't keep betting on horses that may or may not. Interesting. Related to this point that you sometimes need to give up because you understand that this is something you can't take up to a jury or something. One of the audience members has asked, his name is Govind Pillai, are awards to recognition of a great ad person that you do really need those awards? Sorry, it's a recognition of work. It's before anything else is a recognition of work. And whether we like it or not, competition exists in every field. It's not something that is unique to advertising. Again, like I said, it is not something that is advertising invented competition. Just before this the Cannes Film Festival will happen and after that there will be another festival that takes place. Dentist Festival. There will be people who win and there will be films who don't win. Now, for example, if a great piece of film that you really believe in does not win, that doesn't mean it's not a great piece. But if a great piece wins, it's so much better for that piece. So I think that and also I feel that one thing that it does, it pushes you to think. And I think that is really, really important because overall, because somebody did share the load, it pushed us into thinking that, oh, this is the way you can think. Because somebody did dump beauty sketches, you realize that, oh my God, this is also a way to do advertising. It's not just about doing a film or doing a print ad. So I think it pushes the bar ahead. So to that extent, it's important to do the craft. And if you do well with awards, it is likely that your career will do well. I know a lot of people who haven't won awards, but I respect them as very solid people, nonetheless. Anyone else would like to add? Yeah, I think I will add to what what Cannes says. This is, there's two things. Either you're a farmer and you are a Formula One racer. Both the places you are fighting actually, that is deadline. You know what I mean? I was watching the Formula One and I just love Formula One, not because of anything, because you have to win constantly. You have to be on the top 10 constantly and you have to have a better timing. And when you're better timing, you're actually fighting every single day to make it better and better and better. Like when I'm talking to you, my mind is actually, I'm kicking myself because I just saw the H&M design piece that got a grand prix. I think it's a brilliant piece of work and I'm thinking, oh my God, why I didn't think of it? Okay, that can be done also. You know what I mean? That is possible. Cannes is the time as a kid in a candy shop. You see the best piece of work done from a different part of the world and you come back and says, what am I doing? And it's actually like a boost to come back. There are days, I remember like there are days like with Josie, I have done that whenever I was in the video, but days we will sit and we will eat Thai food with my team with Projo Sachin Spiky eating samtum in that Thai place and says, yeah, what was it? Dude, we have been shit. I think we have to get better. I think that has to be done. And it's the same way. It's the same way when some great piece of work has come from Kainaz or from Rahul Matthew or from Sukesh. I'm calling them and told them, dude, you know what? Thank you for kicking my ass. You know, because I feel this just wakes you up and can't seize that. It's not about the winning of a world. It's just seeing the best piece of work. There's someone told you brilliant thing, one of my old boss told me, he says, Rahul, it's about what you're winning. What you're winning for is important. And that is conscious about when you see a great piece of work, you actually think of 10 years from now, we are still talking about a couple of pieces of work because you are proud of those pieces of work. You may not have done that, but it comes from India where someone is done by someone and says, dude, I'm happy for that kind of work. And it kicks me to do the next big piece of work. Yeah. So a word is important. Exactly. Just to add, art is nothing without exhibition. You can't make a beautiful painting and keep it in your house and lock it up in the shelf when nothing happens to it. And creativity actually thrives on recognition. So these are two things that drive you forward. If you're in this industry of ideas, you've got to keep upping the benchmark, you've got to keep doing something which is better than what you did last year. And so in that sense, the awards and the can lines help you sort of believe in those benchmarks and want to beat them next year. So you need that. There's one more question. And I think Senthil would be the best person to answer this. How should young creators, writers and art directors see approach and work towards awards? How can they do it or how did you all do in initial stages of your career? Awards are always secondary. I think that that's what young people should, I mean, while you need the exhibition part, the art is very, very important. So you've got to crack the idea first. You've got to do something which is true to the purpose of that brand or the brief or the marketing challenge and you solve a real problem. The first stage is about cracking that big idea that no one has ever done before and that blows everybody's mind, not just the consumer's mind, but hopefully the jury's mind going forward. That is the process. Then you take that big leap and you always tend to succeed because you have to start by saying that I have to crack a fantastic idea or make a fabulous film which nobody has seen, which has never been done before. Then you'll reach a point where you say, okay, this is good enough to enter for awards. And that's like the icing on the cake. Yeah, just building on that, I saw this beautiful quote when I was in college. It said, you can't play tennis with your eyes on the scoreboard. And I found that so beautiful because it just told you about focus. It told you why you're doing something and it's about the game first. And you see it with most people who are sort of doing well with work. They're enjoying the game. They're enjoying what they're doing. That comes first. If you don't enjoy it, you won't last. You'll never find new things because it's that which drives you, right? I mean, everything else is just a sort of spotlight that comes and goes. But the light inside you is more powerful. And I'll just add a bit. I think people shouldn't be coming to this industry just because it's a creative industry. If you are passionate about writing, art direction, cinematography, filmmaking, whatever it is, I think if you have a passion for that particular thing, then you will be not working for your entire life. You will be enjoying as Josie said. So just because Josie is a great writer, I don't want to get into writing. If I am good in cricket, I should get into cricket. If I'm good, if I'm good in running, I should run marathons. I think be clear in terms of just because somebody else is doing something else, which is wonderful, I shouldn't be doing it. Try and stand in front of the mirror and watch yourself, what you're good at, get into that and become great. And people who are in this industry, I think we are a very subjective, creativity is very subjective. So it's two plus two is never four. It's always keeps on changing. So I always feel that we should be experimenting and doing different stuff. That doesn't matter. Even if we fail, that doesn't matter. I think you should different things and fail rather than do cliche things and fail. So creativity is all about being experimental. And I think somewhere that experiment quotient has reduced in our industry. And kids, youngsters are the one who should be coming and doing fearless things. That's what will keep us awake. That's what will keep us moving, thinking, boss, I used to do this. Look at this kid. It should challenge me and reduce my age. And that is what is expected from the skids. So if you're coming, come with a lot of passion and do experimental, wild, bizarre, unwanted things, only by doing unwanted things will it will make us realize, I think there is something different in this kid. Yes, yes. When I add the day job is not winning awards. The day job is persuasion. And the day job is doing the best for your client, for the product and in the most persuasive way you can. What counts tells us and reminds us regularly that we don't have to because clients are not necessarily very brave people. They are very happy in safety, in cliches and do something which is creatively original and has worked before is the kind of space they would like to operate in. So what awards do and you can do that to your clients too? If you tell them that these are the voice from our industry, from India, who are pushing the envelope. This is what India, I'm not just saying people in the US or somewhere else, these are Indian creatives, the Indian clients who are pushing the envelope and why can't we do something brave? The fact that when Raj wins the con, when Kainaz wins the con, what happens is clients also look at the work and they see, oh my God, these are brave and bravery is as infectious as cowardice. You see great work and you also want to say like, let's do something. And you must keep on trying and you must be inspired by great work and say, how is this so fresh? How is this tone so refreshing? Why is it so original and so striking? And it's a great place and you cannot, you can't write a book to win a Pulizah. You can't think of, you can't be a filmmaker and write a film to win the Oscars. But you must aim for the stars and if you do that, at least we'll end up on treetops if nothing, if we don't reach the stars also, which is a better place than the ground. So awards inspirers, awards tellers where to go as, they're like, they're very, very important things and they're always inspired. Kainaz has always been a source of great inspiration. I'm very proud when an Indian agency or a creative person wins it because he's pushing the bar and he's making things easier for me with my client. My client is a little more courageous to buy the next piece of brave work because I can say, Raj can do that. You can't not let me do that. But if we help each other when we win. It's more about motivation, what I have understood that picking mistakes in your own work, but just better get motivated and improve the next time. We are running short on time and we have one more audience question that I would like all of you to answer. At what point does it strike that a certain idea is aboard or can't lie in worthy? When it's in the creative journey or it's when the awards are announced, so when do you feel that this is the case that we should set? I think you know immediately. There is no question in your mind if you really believe in that idea and it's not just you or me doing it. It's somebody from the team. In this industry, as you grow, you also build your recognition ability. You are able to recognize and the can lines also is like Ramanuj sir said, it is inspiring but at the same time it is showing you the way. It is a guiding light. So when you're inspired and you're looking at inspirational work and then somewhere it sort of sits all in your head and then you're able to recognize good ideas better. But you'll have to sort of say that, okay, this one is good enough for just for the Indian audience. So this one is great for can't somewhere you'll have to be able to separate them and that comes with a little bit of learning and time. But otherwise, it's just you'll know when you have a big idea, I mean greatness is impossible to hide. Yes, so I am a huge believer in instinct. So I mean, I usually feel it in my gut that this feels like a winner. I mean, you have to feel it a couple of times. For example, like he said at the recognition stage, then it gets created. There is a journey there. Sometimes you miss the plot there. And it happens. Sometimes you have a great idea but once it's created, it feels ordinary. Then you have to let it go. But if at the idea stage it feels great, if at the creation stage it feels great as well, then I think most people on this panel and across the world will tell you that you only know it in your gut. Unfortunately, it's not a science. Otherwise, you would be winning everything every year. Karshan? Yeah, I think everybody has their yardsticks. I agree with what other people have said. I also go back to that feeling that again Rajdeep had spoke about a little while earlier. Raj said this thing, which is a true yardstick, which is one is there are two aspects. One is which, you know, often when Kenaz and I jump together and we come up with something and we know that this is big, it's instant and it's based on instinct. But in most of our roles on this panel, when you're judging the work of dozens of other people and then you have to kind of, you know, form your entries. But at the onset only at an idea stage, if there is a voice in your gut, which tells you why didn't I think of it before, it at least caters to what you hold supreme. And to me that is a yardstick. Having said that in most instances, it's like a thunderbolt. It's like a lightning bolt that, you know, it hits you and you know, sometimes quite like love, it can be, it can be across time. I'll give a case in point because of course there'll be exceptions to any rule. For instance, this young team with us, Harshik and Gitanjali, they really took up the cause of Reshma, a make love not scars with a genuine, genuine urge because they felt for that cause. And frankly speaking, and we also knew we had zero budgets for it. It was everything was done on goodwill because the client was very serious about it, but they didn't have the budgets. We went and gathered partners. It was done on literally, think I literally like a zero budget with favors with stumbling with multiple rounds of all of us sitting in on edits and trying to figure out how to get it. But about three months down the line and we knew, we had something which all of us were very happy and satisfied with and frankly, as much as many skeptics might like to believe that wasn't the case because there'll be enough people who said, this campaign happened sometime in the late middle year and sometime in November because the way it started connecting with people socially on social media, we were all happy that, hey, we have a noticed campaign for the course. Of course, as creative people, you want to push the creative bar and hence, I mean, the idea that we had chosen was that to use a beauty tutorial and get Reshma to do it. But somewhere I think that some pieces gather a critical mass. And one day we had no clue that this campaign circulating for a cause within our communities, but the power of social media and again unpaid social media because you never know serendipity might take you somewhere. One day we get a call from some client and so happened that Piyush was in New York for a meeting and just the prior day, the Wall Street Journal in New York picked up this campaign for some reason and somebody wrote about it on the online edition and then the kind of critical mass that had gathered and that's when Ken asked me and the team, oh, shit, we have something so huge on our hands. Like we had no clue also about how the, we hadn't even thought about how the international people will react. Then New York Times writes about it. Then some multiple people started writing about it and suddenly it became a world phenomenon. Now that is also, I mean, we had never, and I think touches upon the earlier one that if you are feeling bullish about a work, if you feel that you can solve a problem in the most different way in which the world hasn't seen, go ahead and do it. Escape, bark me if the world has to notice it, they'll award it. And we are very happy with the awards. We don't shy away from it one bit because we have said, I mean, literally as part of the tab, I won't name the magazines, but with an earnest endeavor, a client along with us, because there were no budgets, we went to practically all the leading magazines to try and ask them to give Reshma cover space. But she was unknown, the campaign was in its infancy, nothing happened. Next, we know can has happened, Newsweek Middle East puts her on the cover completely without any payments. I mean, that is the power of Ken, that is the power of an idea. And today that cause has benefited so much from all the can wins. I just think it's a great thing. Josie? What was the question? When do you know? I think for me, you know what, I have a bit of a tremor. So when something gets into me, I go ballistic, my tremor goes wild. It's like a water diviner when he's going with his fork. And it's at the seed level, it's not at the execution level, it's at that point where you hit that idea. And I remember on Share the Load when we put that thought down of is laundry only a woman's job. It's as simple as when we wrote that, I just went crazy. Like in you, you have touched not an idea, you touch something like a nerve. And when you touch that nerve, your nerve starts going wild. And I still feel it. And I remember going around telling people and no one is reacting. No one gives a shit about it. And you have to keep doing it and keep building it and believing it. And slowly it starts, people are with you and there are partners and beautiful people in the agency who build it. And something happens. So I think the seed is a beautiful place. And for me, the seed is all that I want, man. My seed, that seed is the award when you get that seed. I don't know if I've made any sense. You made all the sense to me at least. I don't know about others. I think Mansi, like for me, these two things, the simple, very basic. One is epic brand, epic work. Epic brand is very important because it's hard to win for epic brands. It's really tough when you're the big brands doing something because then you are, like someone said, right? If someone does something, it helps me push my clients. Some of them are saying, right? It helps me push my clients. I know my next big brand will come from the next big brand and the next big brand. So that is very important. For me, it's how you're working towards to make that big piece of work for the big piece of client that you have. But three things comes here. I think I, so just peep out those words when I say the F word. One is O F. How did it happen? The second is what the P? Okay. Third is how the P? Okay. So let me buy. What is OP? That means keep such a simple idea, man. Why didn't I think of it? OP, that happens. A lot of happens here. It's here. Like Paddy said that other font size small. It's so simple. Then comes what the P? What the P? That means how the hell he thought of it? How the hell he thought of it? What goes into his head, man? This is this psycho guy or something is mad about it. You know, it's some ideas that makes you really get falling. I said, this is the reason I've been advertising for. Then comes the third one. It says, how the P? That means someone is crafted to the work to the last bit. You know that art directors and copywriters has gone blind. The hands have fallen down. The fingernail has gone down because he is writing 20th century. I have a story about Paddy and, what do you call Paddy and Russell about he won't be able to come in the last. Can you write something to last may write Paddy? That's a campaign. And the story is that they didn't come right place. So the art director and copywriter has gone blind doing that piece of right. See, craft again, we miss sometimes. Craft is something very important. You can have a brilliant idea. You can have a brilliant execution, but when you're crafting, it's right. It's everything. I think that's the OP. Those three happens. You know, you have a winner in your hand. Okay, so I'll have a slightly different perspective. I think people, some of the guys who are here have judged many award shows. So it becomes easy for them to pick the work when some of their juniors share with them. But for most others, I would like to just have a different perspective because we, when we enter can, I think we are very optimistic. Actually, I think we single handedly made can the most richest in last two decades because we send 1000% raise and less than two person gets converted. That means somewhere our judgment is not right as a nation. So we should come together, share with each other, share with whoever, whatever it takes because there is a great amount of money being spent from the agency. So you better be very careful, conscious about it. So somewhere, I think that that that thing is not right because it goes back to the legacy. I think most of us have been absorbing work as a kid, right from black book to one shows to DNAD when there was physical work. So when you have seen many campaigns, you know that in this category, 286 pieces have already been done. So this is not the right idea. This is overlapping 20%, 30%, 40%. So let's not do it. Whereas if you have not kept a track of what's been happening, advertising, then you will latch on to a basic idea, the widest, brightest, simplest, toughest angle, which is absolutely wrong these days to do that. And even for us, I think we are very particular about this particular will be winning in a particular category, in subcategory, in subcategory. Like for example, I'll give example of the Nike when they converted the church into a basketball court. It won a Gropri in design, environmental design, because that never won anywhere else. But somebody thought this is the right category. Hence, let me just put the case study correctly. And then that same piece goes in direct. I think the case study has to be very different. They can't be just doing that environmental case and enter. So we just don't take enough pain to cut the case study according to the category. And if you do that, then the chances of it getting higher metal increases. So I think these are some of the things that that we have been keeping in mind as a smaller group. I think the larger group needs to be more sensitive about all these things, because it will just help all of us as a country to take the metal tally far higher. Ramanuj? Yeah. Sorry, I dropped out for a bit. There's electrical failure. Did you hear the question? We are talking about when do you know that it's the idea that could win or what? I agree with a lot of my colleagues that it's instinctive. It's in the gut and you know when you have a big one. Because I mean, if you're serious about advertising, you have been following awards all your life and you know that this is a game changer and you have it on something which is wonderful. And you know it at that instant. But knowing that idea and guarding it till it's executed properly and with all the love and care that it deserves is a long long journey. You have to protect it from you know from yourself at times and ensure that the craft is perfect and you know the case study is just right and everything has to be done with a bit of detachment you know like Spartan detachment towards the end. The love is there but at the same time you know the rigor must definitely be put so that it shines. Great, great. I guess I've asked you all pardon me if I've missed someone. Thank you so much for your time today. We have slightly overshot what we had been given. But thank you so much for your time. All the best to all of those who have sent in their works and are shortlisted. Hoping to get in touch with you soon to take your reports on your winning entries this year. Have a nice evening. Thank you.