 This is Bill Doyle and, for my knowledge, along with Sophie, who's known so for being a student in my class and a very fine student. We became very interested in Catherine Patterson's book. And why did this strike take place, Catherine? Well, the strike in Lawrence in 1912 took place because the conditions were absolutely measurable for the workers. They had come from many countries, speaking many languages, because the mill owners thought if they spoke that many languages, they couldn't possibly talk to each other and start a strike, but they were wrong because they did start a strike and they did communicate with each other because the conditions were so terrible. And they were working many hours every week and not making enough to – it was really pretty – starvation wages. And the Massachusetts legislature told them they had to cut down on hours, so what they did was just cut down on what people were making, and then they couldn't live off what they were making. So they decided they had to strike for better working conditions, better – Oh. I told Sophie one of the reasons I became interested in your book and what you're good at in thinking. We appreciate the work that you have done, not only this book, but all the books that you have published and your credit to this – Well, you're kind. Thank you. Good to watch it. Anyone who lives in Washington County or the state of Vermont, but I became interested because my senior thesis at college was the other side, Cold Strike of 1902. And some of the things, the themes that ran through the Strike of 1902 books were so intense that it had to be settled by the President of the United States, Wilson. And so I – and some of the things that you write about in your book about conditions between labor and industry are very much today and being thought of today. And we both thank you so much for the book that you've written. Well, thank you so much. And I think what they have in common is the greed of the wealthy. You'd think they had plenty that they could spare some to pay their workers proper wages, but no, no, they needed more and more and their greed was what defeated them really. You have some great examples of that in your book. One of them is the discussion of Rosa, the lead character talking to her teacher. And her teacher says, oh, well, you know, the boss thinks his workers are good people and he's going to try and support them. And she says, well, mama makes $35 a month and 25 cents and he charges $30 for the rent. So I mean, you know, you're making five bucks to raise four kids. You're living in a single flat with another family and nobody's got bread and you describe it so beautifully. It's really touching in this book about, you know, when the children arrive in Barry, the you know, the gentleman who meets them at the train station says, well, where are the children's bags? And the woman says, oh, they have what they have on. And the gentleman from Barry says, oh, oh, wow, they don't even have jackets. Their shoes aren't going to work here. They don't have socks. And it was beautiful, too, that in the story there was a Jake or Jack, the boy lead. He has worked in the mills as a 14-year-old boy, maybe. And he's never had a pair of socks, wool socks. And so when he comes to Barry, he gets this pair of wool socks. And I think that's very, you know, explanatory of a lot of the experience of young American workers these days. And I think this book is totally relevant in that because these old Italians had this incredible wisdom about the heart and the beauty of humanity being stronger than the force of capitalism. And that was, I think, in the end, the only thing that gave them actual strength because they so obviously had nothing. I mean, did you feel that there was a turning point where they realized their desperation was, you know, in vain if they didn't take it seriously? Well, of course, to give up your children to someone else of care, somebody you don't know, somebody in a distant city shows how desperate they were. And I think they did it because they cared about their children and the fact that their children were cold and hungry, but also because they knew that if they were that desperate that the newspapers would get involved. And they needed the newspapers to see how desperate the situation was because they newspapers could tell the world that what was happening in Lawrence. So they were media savvy. It seemed like there was real national recognition of this. There finally was, yes. And it was because of the case that that was being experienced across the nation or was it because Lawrence was really an example of how bad it could get? I think Lawrence was an example of how bad it could get. And the turning point for the strike was that they had already sent children to New York and to Barrie, but they were going to send children to Philadelphia. And so the parents brought the children to the train station and the police and the guards, national guards, confiscated the kids, right? Yeah, took the kids away and beat up the parents and put them in jail. And that just exploded all over the national press. It's like something we've seen recently in this country. Well, you know, it just sort of breaks your heart that a book like this written about something that happened in 1912 could be relevant for today. We, you know, we hope we've gotten better. We hope we don't treat children this way anymore. We hope that we're humane towards those who work for us and on whom our life depends. In livelihood, I mean, we all need each other, right? And, you know, you see what is happening. Well, there were other strikes in 1912. One of them was one that I studied at college, just to think. And there was so much violence and national concern that it finally was settled by the president of the United States, Deirdre Roosevelt. And but for that intervention, no one knows what would have happened. Yeah, well, and Taft, who was president at this period, he invited, and this is maybe a question you were going to ask me later, but he invited representatives from among the strikers to come to Washington and testify about the conditions. And one young girl whose hair had been, you know, she'd been scalped by the machine. She was scalped, right. Yeah, was among the young people who went down to testify. And they testified for Congressional Committee, and then Mrs. Taft invited them to the White House for tea. Amazing, right? Right, these tatters. In about 1960, a reporter began to get interested in the strike and wondered why we didn't know more about the strike. And he heard that the daughter of the young woman whose hair had been pulled out was still alive, and he was thrilled. So he went to Lawrence to interview her, and she had never heard the story of her mother's injury or of her mother going to Washington. Oh, my goodness. Now, I'm a parent. I cannot imagine that if I'd been scalped by a machine and had been taken to Washington to testify before Congress and to have tea at the White House, I cannot imagine that my children would not know that story. Or when the reporter told her the story, he said, oh, my mother always wanted me to comb my hair over the ball spot. But she never told me why there was a ball spot on her head. So the fact that after the strike, which was one of the most successful strikes, if not the most successful strike, they got everything they asked for. It lasted for months, right? Yeah, four months. Yes, almost between three and four months. And the dead of winter, of course. Yeah. It was over in March. In March. Towards the end of March. So, and it started before Christmas, I think. But even though it was successful, they got everything they asked for. They should have asked for more, but they got everything they asked for. But the church said those leaders were communists and anarchists. Marxists. Marxists and atheists. So your anti-church, if you were for the strike, and the government said, well, no real American would go on strike and disobey the law and not obey the police. And so therefore, you're anti-American. And they had this big, all-American parade to shame the workers who had won the strike. And so the workers didn't talk about the strike. They didn't even tell their children about their success. So Catherine, earlier in the program, you talked about Lawrence, Massachusetts. And they sent children away from Lawrence, explained the circumstances why a city would ask children to leave. Well, the city didn't do it. The strikers did it. One, so that the kids would be warm and have food, which they certainly did, when they came to. In fact, after the strike was over, it was said that the parents who met them at the train didn't recognize their own children because they were rosy cheeks. They looked beautiful. And beautifully dressed. Thank you, Barry. Thank you, Barry. It's such a wonderful job. I mean, the generosity, I lived in Barry for 28 years. I never lived anywhere. You grew up traveling, right? After that long. Yes. I lived in many, many places. I will always think of Barry as my hometown because I've lived there so long. And I'm so proud of Barry and Barry history. Oh, it's gorgeous. We're all proud of Barry. Yeah. And I just, you know, I want all of them. I brought the whole world to know the generosity of those Italian stone workers. They didn't have to be good to the poor, ignorant, southern, Italian, emerald children. But they, you know, they took them into their own homes and treated them as though they were their own children. So how many children did Barry take? 35. And did any of those at 35 stay? None of the 35 stood. And in my book, which is fiction, Senator Joy, in my book, there's a boy who stays. And I wanted somebody to stay in Barry. I mean, that's as a writer and as a person who loves Barry, I wanted one of those children to be able to live out their lives in Barry. So I had to invent a child that nobody would miss if he didn't go home. Now those actual 35 children were going back to loving homes. And they would certainly have been missed if they hadn't shown up. So I had to invent somebody who stole away on the train, so nobody knew he was there, who kept himself out of sight of people who were counting heads and who somehow would remain in Barry and belong to Barry after the strike was over. That was just my privilege as the writer of work of fiction. So how was the strike finally settled? Strike was finally settled because the owners were brought to the table. And I mean, they weren't making any money when those mills were closed. How does that line go? The sound of silence, right? They will understand the sound of silence. I love that. When there's no hurrying in the mills. Yeah. And there's no change in their pockets. Then there will be brought to. And I think they thought, you know, it's dead or winter. These people aren't going to last. Yeah. And they did last. And partly they lasted because of the generosity of workers from our home. They were sending soup. They were sending food. I have a list of the articles in the Barry newspaper. They're having all these activities at the Socialist labor hall to earn money to send to the striking workers in Lawrence. The family in Lawrence. So, you know, there was a cooperation all around you, England, among other workers, to help the workers and strike the workers. So what's happening in the mills and the mills where people work, the working conditions and so on? I'm sorry? Can you say anything about the working conditions? Yes. Go ahead. Oh. They were pretty awful. I mean, there was not much safety. They weren't worried about the safety of the workers. Workers got killed. Right. You had the example of a fire breaking out in the woolen mill. Yes. And the main lead character's father was killed in that fire. And left a single mother with four children. Yeah. And there wasn't any compensation. Right. Insurance policies or... We have done better about compensating people for deaths at work or injuries at work. That's one thing we've done better at because in those days you get killed. Your husband gets killed in the mill. That's it. That's it. Right. Well, it was... Super damages. Similar in Barry, right? A lot of... I mean, the life expectancy was like 40 years old at that time in 1912 or 1918. No. And of course the stone workers. Right. They all got silicosis. Some got silicosis. But it... You died young. Yeah. I loved your tribute to the carvers. I, you know, enjoy the stone a lot. Just even the closing line of your book is so beautiful about... You know, well, I'll read it because it really is... The English... Oh no, that's the historical note. Ah, I should have marked it. And Jake Beale began to run even though his new boots sometimes slipped on the icy cobbles. He did not stumble. How strange. How wonderful it seemed to be running not away from petty crime or deadly fear, but toward a new life where bread was never wanting and roses grew on stone. In stone. And roses grew in stone. And I thought that was really beautiful because that was, you know, the whole beauty of their message of the humanitarian aspect of workers and their need for bread and their need for warmth and their need for wool socks. And, you know, it's been an issue for the labor movement always to be seen as human. And to have those parts of our, you know, experience really recognized beyond, okay, well, the boss can afford five cars and whatever about the rest of us, you know. So I really appreciated your writing about Barry, too, because I think it was important to recognize that individuals in Barry had taken the opportunity coming to a new country, learning new skills, participating in a new economy, and actually owning small businesses themselves. And so this was a major step that a lot of Americans in more industrialized areas like Lawrence, I suspect, didn't understand they had the right to participate in. So that was beautiful. Yeah, you really blended things so well in this book. I am thrilled that you wrote it. Thank you, Sophie. Thank you. Who took the lead in settling this great? Well, the wobblies, you know, the workers. The workers. Had come in and helped organize these disparate languages and nationalities and religions and everything that the workers represented and helped them plead for what they wanted. There was a local man who had actually started the strike, but he knew that he didn't have the skills to organize it in a way that it would be lasting and it would really make a difference. And he was arrested early on, right? Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, the three leaders of the strike were arrested for the death of the woman that had been killed by the National Guard. And that was in the first week, right? Something like that. Yeah. But they kept sending messages from jail. Telling people what to do. And one thing that's kind of wonderful is the singing. Oh, well, yes. And of course, this was very much of the women, because many of the workers, of course, were women. Interesting. In the pictures of the strike, you don't see so many women. You see the men. Oh, interesting. But more of the workers were women. So I don't know why. You know, maybe men always get the attention. I don't know. But anyhow, they sang. And somebody said, I don't know whether it's Helen Gerlachlan or who it was, said, you can't defeat a movement, a singing movement. Right. And I think about that in the civil rights movement. My husband was in jail during the civil rights movement. And he said they crowded them all into this big cell. And there was not room to lie down or even sit up. So they just sang all night. And he said, it ran the jailers crazy. Come and beat on the bars until they shut up. And they were just singing and singing. And you know, there is something rather wonderful about people who are singing. Was it Estonia that separated from Russia through the Singing Revolution? Oh, really? Yes. There's a movie made about it. It's a documentary. Oh, I haven't seen that. And when Russia started to become, you know, different countries again instead of the USSR, Estonia was, I think, the first country to initiate that with the Singing Revolution where, at their main yearly gathering, there were something like 25,000 people singing the national anthem, a new national anthem together. And the Russians literally started like freaking out and leaving the country by foot. You know? It was fabulous. Explain who the presidents were at the time. Well, Taft was the president in 1912. And you know, I remember Taft even when I forget his name because I was part of a book on the White House. And he couldn't get out of the bathtub in the White House because he was too fat. So they had to build a new bathtub in the White House that would accommodate his body. But he was, and Mrs. Taft, I think, was very instrumental in bringing the strikers to Washington to tell about the conditions in the mills. So the president, to some degree, played a role in the second. Yes. He did play a role in it. And I think this is still happening where you have major discrepancies within the union or corporate entities where you have a town like Lawrence where maybe people don't know what the laws are and who cares. And then you have towns like Berry where they know what the laws are. And they're not going to let you mess with them. And that's it, you know? It's like, these are the laws. No, you abide by them, so do we. Period. And that was also very well described in your book because Berry really didn't see that kind of poverty. No. We've asked you a lot of questions. I don't know any questions we should have asked you. Oh, Kevin, I'm always hoping people will ask me questions because when they say, what questions should we have asked you, I think, I don't know, what questions should they have asked me? Is there another question that I should have been asked? Well, I don't know. Was there, I guess this here it says, what was the outcome of the strike? What happened after the strike? That's what I was saying, that they were made ashamed of what they accomplished. And do you have an example or two maybe where the people were... The girl who didn't know that her mother... Oh, right, that was a perfect example, sure. And they're just, you know, even though it was such a wonderful outcome of the strike, I mean, such an amazing... It sort of dropped out of the history books. We don't do a lot with labor history in our history books. No, we really don't. I mean, when I was being taught history was there was this war and then nothing happened. And then Goody, another war. In like 1970, right? So what's happening to the ordinary people gets dropped out of the history books, I think. And it wasn't until the 60s and 70s that people began to think, why don't we know about the large strike? Because it was a very important strike in labor history. Huge. And they began nosing around. And when I was working, I started writing about it because I saw the picture of the children standing on the steps. Which is a beautiful picture. You know, I just... But here's the old one. I had chills going down my spine. I said, there's a story in that picture. I've got to find out what the story is because I didn't know the story. You mentioned people not being taken out of history. These days, some prominent people are being dropped from being in history. And that's just some more reason. So it's imperative that the press and all the people involved should reason why history shouldn't be kept alive. History should... We've got to learn from our history, don't we? And it really bothers me that this book is so relevant for today. Yeah, it's stunningly relevant. Yeah. And a lot of... It's interesting to me how you've tucked in these little pieces of wisdom that are very... This book was written for young adults, right? And so it has a lot of wisdom. Like, I'm not a parent, but if I were a parent, I would want my child to understand that their thoughts are where their life is going to go. And that their camaraderie with their family is really the most important thing, even if circumstances are difficult and your education also is imperative. And it will be sought after by many groups who need your assistance as either smart or crafty or capable or whatever the different talents individuals have. And so I just really appreciate you putting this beautiful book together for young adults to learn from the history, but also from somebody who's experienced a lot of life's quirks and curves and been able to describe them, you know, in a very helpful way. Well, I love your... Well, the follow-up was what Sophie just said. So some things that we've talked about that we should have brought up in this interview. I don't know anything... One thing I did think about while Sophie was talking was that two years ago, I think it was, I was chair of the National Book Award Jury for Young People's Literature and the winner was Senator... I mean, Congressman who went through the civil rights movement and he got up there with his acceptance and he said... He said, do you know what it means to me to win this award? I was a sharecropper's son and I went to the local library and they said, it's for whites only. You can't come into the library. My teacher told me that books were important and so I read everything I could. Right. And here's a man who's changed the... The face of the demographic of writing. Yeah, he's changed the course of our country in many ways. Sophie, I should thank you for writing the beautiful book. Oh, well, thank you for appreciating my book. I really am honored because you're a historian. I'd like to think that historians would approve of my fiction. Yes, we like it. Thank you for joining us. Oh, well, thank you so much, Sophie. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much, Stephanie. Oh, thank you. I want to see...