 This is Think Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. It is Thursday in noontime folks, Ted Ralston here in our Think Tech studios downtown overlooking probably Kahana Bay at this point in time with our show where the drone leaves talking about drone subjects and bringing more than that interesting people into the studio. And today we have sort of the top of the pyramid of the interesting people category. We have all the way from the Marshall Islands, we have Scott Paul, who is the city manager of Aquasolene at all and all the islands contained and the waters contained within. And you've been on twice now I think Scott, yes, didn't become a frequent flyer here as we connect Hawaii and Marshall Islands. Well we try, we try. Okay now there's some guys who aren't here, there's some other folks in town, the mayor's here, Maricopa is taking care of other things right now and we don't have Jolin Jane with us. He is apparently somewhere else. He couldn't make the flight. Couldn't make the flight. Okay well Jolin we're missing you, I wish you were here. Too bad Jolin, too bad. And then of course we have the originator of so many grand thoughts. Greg Nakano, Greg thanks for coming on board, also a frequent flyer and a dangerous partner to have in things that could go a long way. But Greg is notionally a former Marine, a present thinker, current student at University of Hawaii, and originator, leader, and promoter of Pacific allies. And so all those subjects get back to drone somehow. Right. So why don't you take the lead on that Greg and let's see how that all ties back together again. And we'll bring in some very recent reasons that Scott's here and bring that into the conversation. I think this probably goes back to the first time we met and it's got to be five at least five, six years ago. Yeah. And this was right before I think you went to the Philippines. So you were going to the Philippines almost immediately after that with, I'm blanking on this name. Chuck Devaney. Chuck Devaney. And you began using drones with students to do civilian applications. And about that same time, I was looking at how do we build programs that are going to help students cadets and midshipmen understand the climate change impacts on national security. The things they'll face in real life on their officers that they probably won't get through the curriculum in their academies. Right. So real life and speaking of real life. That's right. And so I think it was two and a half years ago. Had a chance to, I actually barged in on his office, kind of cold call knocked on the door and, you know, sort of pitched this crazy idea. Okay, we we're going to try and bring students cadets and midshipmen to look at climate change impacts on national security. But we'd like to do it in E by city and Quasilan at all. And that's where Scott Scott comes in. And that area is not an unfragile area. You guys are facing some serious future consequences. Yes. Yes. You are city manager. Yes. Therefore, you're sort of responsible, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Basically, basically put, yeah, I'm responsible for that. And as as Greg mentioned, this all happened two and a half years ago, when this crazy guy came and knocked on my door and said, Hey, I want to do something with you with the local government city of E by one. Okay. It was like a blind will be blind obedience or blind blind leading the blind, blind leading the blind. But eventually, this all paid off. We managed to establish a working Pacific allies program, which we're almost at the with the at the stage that we're going to make it more of an official of an official endeavor with the local government passing a resolution, making it an official program for the local government. That's fantastic. So the your local government in E by in Quasilan has taken us on seeing the value and gone through the paperwork of generating a charter or recommendation or salutation or something. Yes, to get a high level of recognition here. Yes, we got to bring that story to our legislature here. Oh, you met somebody yesterday who's Oh, the governor of the state of Hawaii. And that was very honoring for us. The mayor was here. He made a courtesy courtesy visit to the governor. And it was a really well placed visit. And we really appreciated that. And I think with that established, we can do more from there. And I mean, given that Hawaii spends $15 million on Kopa students alone, every year, and then 9% increasing every year. That actually gives us the motivation to see how we can better prepare kids for the future, for them to migrate, and then not just be a burden on the social welfare in Hawaii, rather, yes, come prepared, come prepared. There you go. And becoming contributing citizens in the future. And what that that's, that's a really incredible thought you had, because what you're suggesting is that there's going to have to be out migration from the threatened areas as sea level rise occurs. It is inevitable. And it's inevitable because climate change has always been here. It's just that we're experiencing it in the new, the new world is really experiencing it at an exponential amount of that. It really affects the way of life and everything. Our water lenses will be more brackish than they are right now. Vegetation won't grow. And it will be inhabitable. To the point that I believe it's 50 to 60 years. There might be underwater might be. But we're just preparing the kids for the future and bringing all these technology, how we can integrate them into our traditional way of life through STEM. That's another thing because I believe that's the best way that the children can learn. Because us Islanders, we're all we were voyagers. We were peace seekers as Hono Shin mentioned. And instead of the using the word refugee refugees, migrants, we were and still are voyagers, navigators, and it's still in our blood. So why don't we take out that labeling that we put on upon ourselves by saying, Oh, they're Micronesians, they're Polynesians, they're Melanesians, and just use one word as Islanders, because we are all Islanders at one point. We were used to be that just Islanders instead of these other labels that the others brought upon us, bestowed upon us later on. So with that said, I believe if we can be under one voice using the name Islanders, we can have our message more powerful than it is right now. And a great place to attach that message is to Pacific Allies. Yes, because that is a place that has the all at this point in time, the government recognition and through Greg's work, Pacific Command's attention, and University's attention. So there's a lot of value that that has as a mixing box as a intermediary connecting all. And it's one thing it's specific and see alliances across the Pacific to make it work. But going back for a moment, Scott, to what you said about the emerging measurable effects of sea level rise and such, we are seeing that a little bit here, not as extremely as you're seeing it, but we have the King Tides, they call them now and then, which require sand bags on Waikiki. We have erosion along the beaches in a in a big way, but we're beginning to see it. But I don't think anybody other than landowners who've had their own had their property going to the ocean have, we haven't felt it, I think, in a in a broad way here where it's affected everybody. We don't have brackish water. We don't have a lot of the effects that you are already seeing. So people who are in in the young adult age group will have seen a change from when they were kids to what they're seeing now. Is that in fact going on that awareness? Yes. And it's there's visual evidence because there are there are times that when King died, King tide season comes in, you literally have an island split in two. One island that used to be whole is split in two because of King Tides and Erosions. And that is something that we that is evidence that the climate change is there for people that do not know what climate climate change is. And it is very unfortunate that some think that think that climate change is just something that just an excuse, but it is really there. And we live it every day. That's the part that sets us apart from where you are leading the way, so to speak, into this future. Does that suggest that maybe some kind of a Pacific allies oriented climate change awareness session or physical reality session could be held on you by or in the quageline at all in some way. Yeah. And maybe Greg, can you elaborate more on that? That was a set up, Greg. I think one of the things that I mean, you're a paddler and you know, we're talking canoes and everyone and you know, in the same direction. More and more, I'm figuring out, you can't build any system on your own resources alone. And everyone is bringing something different to the table. So when we started the concept of bringing Western student, you know, students, American students from the mainland or from Hawaii, down to quageline and looking at the climate change impact, it really was for the benefit of the American students. It was to give them a preview of what they reasonably could anticipate in Florida, California, Texas, Hawaii, in 40 or 50 years when they're in you know, when they're in leadership positions. But after being there the first year, what we realized was, there was an enormous need and opportunity to be working with the Marshallese youth to actually help them get a vision for what they would do with their lives when the islands no longer could sustain them. And so over the even over two only two years of doing the Pacific ally program, what we've done is we've slowly shifted from just trying to prep American students to actually building a collaborative process with the local administrators and students on the island and the service academies West West Point Coast Guard Academy, Naval Academy and University of Hawaii. So that's a partnership. We're learning from them, because they're the ones experiencing the chain challenges. And they're also getting a chance to look at where they might go. Why not go to University of Hawaii? It's, you know, top 10 schools in the nation for oceanography. Why not try and go to Coast Guard Academy. There's actually an open seat for any Marshallese who wants to attend the Coast Guard Academy. So there are opportunities and if you don't know where there are a lot comes to mind from what you just said. And again, everything we meet different major inspirational themes pop up from the two of you. And let me get back to the preparation for the future. The idea you just brought up that is now not just us as us preparing to see what we're going to see and how we're going to deal with it, but working with the folks who are affected more directly than we are and what they're going to do. And the fact that they are being challenged, being asked, being suggested to think about a future that they have no context for because they haven't ever been displaced before. This is something. This is a major social effect on your on your whole persona. So let's get back to that. After we take our break back in one minute. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. If you're not in control of how you see yourself, then who is live above the influence? You can be the greatest. You can be the best. You can be the king conveying your chest. It is still in an hour Thursday, folks. Scott Paul from the city manager from Gwadzolin in the Marshall Islands and Greg Nakano University of Hawaii and a lot of other things here with us on the show where the drone leads. We talked about drones at the very beginning, and we're going to get back to drones in a minute here, but we had a really incredible 15 minute discussion prior to the break on preparation for massive cultural change, physical change, location change that you're facing and that we're going to face a bit later on. You would call you the canary in a coal mine. If that sticks. So anyway, what what I was intrigued by was how those frames of reference that are needed to handle that kind of coming change can be addressed at least from an information exchange basis through the world of stem, I think to a large extent. Stem is cultural agnostic. It is language agnostic. It is what it is. And it's similar to mathematics. Mathematics is the same. What are you finding in a French textbook, a German textbook or an English textbook? The narrative may be different, but the thought process is essentially the same and the expression in equation form and such is identical. So there's some commonality here that as in the case of math that that really can connect the world through stem and through the the think the thought process and the self preparation that goes along with becoming involved in stem. And I think there's no reason that you buy can't be right up there with anybody else as a member of that worldwide community and use that as a transfer mechanism to communicate to exchange ideas and take and use that as part of the preparation in two ways. One for the island itself as we discover what undersea factors might be agricultural such and as you said in getting ready for the big word ex migration to some other place because it's going to have to happen at some point in time. So that's just some thoughts I had on how this does get back to drones and gets back to when the drones have to be airplane type drone. We're talking about surface and subsurface drones basically information collection devices but incredibly dependent upon emerging technology and that is where the common denominator is that links us all together. I was going to say I think that's exactly what science is trying to do is like in the conversation we had earlier you're talking about how a mathematical equation or scientific experiment is run in different languages and yet when it's written out in the formula the inputs and the outputs should be the same if it's true science. I think that's where we have a huge opportunity is that whether it's in the Marshall Islands or in Hawaii or in some lab on Lincoln Lab or Scandia Lab. Sure in Hawaii it was called like a hoop or in Japan Satoyama and then you come to the new terminology today and you might get something like homeostatic ecosystem sustainability. But the concept of that but the concepts were the same is that inputs outputs circular relationships and how you have nonlinear relationships that us as humans are really dependent on and we had a really great conversation with Pono Shim yesterday and thank you Pono for you know taking the time but he was saying it's we have to move away from transactional thinking from linear transactional quid pro quo and look into interdependent relational discussions and that's where we went back to I think what Scott was talking about earlier is that if you think about the Micronesians or Marshallese or Hawaiians Pacific Islanders and how they were able to finally tune the way they lived in harmony with the seasons the tides of productivity of the land to such a degree that they were able to survive despite they they still had tsunamis come through they still had hyphens come through and somehow they were able to live there because they understood the natural science of where they were living so well. And so I think that's what we're trying to do is figure out how do we take that native traditional knowledge that may not be in that scientific equation yet but then use the data that is coming from drones that is coming that is coming from satellites or remotely operated vehicles to verify what the ancient leaders and elders and knowledge keepers they knew in different language but they just didn't have it in numbers and I think that's where the opportunity is. And so that leads to the challenge and how do we identify collect and characterize that form of wisdom that form of knowledge that form of readiness and such in fact that's exactly I like your your notion of the transactional relationships mathematical equations are purely that transactional relationships one thing begets the other and they're very tightly bound by how they're not defined. But what's missing in all that is that state change above to where the the human factors and the the intelligence and the motivations are represented so I don't know where we have a way to describe that in the scientific domain. As you point out a successfully managed who would have had some of that in its in its DNA a successfully managed isolated community would have had that in his DNA so extracting that and coming up with what the roots are that make that all work would be fascinating and we had the conversation that we were all in yesterday down at the convention center thanks to Debbie Zimmerman and others who put that on and that was all about I can't quite remember the name Sockness. Sockness which I had never heard of. I don't think you had heard of I don't know what you would have heard of but we what were your thoughts on that. Sockness that was an incredible ability outreach to bring people together across cultural boundaries using STEM as that common denominator that vehicle of information transfer. I think one of the it's an amazing endeavor and I think they said they've been in business 45 years. 40 or 50 almost 50. Yeah almost 50 years. And it was as I understand it it was to look at how can the group empower Native American Chicano Hispanic students to become leaders in science technology engineering and mathematics and then it but it was a blending of cultural traditions in such a way that they began to see the value of the old legends and myths and how those actually followed modern science and the knowledge that we're gathering today. And so when I thought OK if this is an opportunity for whether it's Marshallese or Micronesian kids to fly drones to use LiDAR to now penetrate underneath the water and begin watching changes in salinity or current flows and things like that. I mean that would be such a neat thing and the fact that it's going to be in Hawaii. I think what was it October 31st to 2 November of next year. That's it just gives us an opportunity to really showcase the scientific value of the local traditional knowledge in ways that probably has never been imagined before. Yes. And I'm glad you mentioned that Greg because one thing that Pono made me realize is that culture is a blend of all the disciplines itself. And that's how our people were able to survive on just coconuts, red fruit, fish, all these years for hundreds of years. I mean if you were looking for that missing factor I think that's the link between science and mathematics and all these things is culture which is rooted into the people and to the DNA. And because culture, our islands, there are identity and that's why I believe that's how we were able to survive for hundreds of years in these sandbars that we live on. And that I think was what I was sensing also in this meeting yesterday as I heard about suckness at the first time and began to understand what it was all about and see the value. Well we can get good at the transactional work which we have to do. That's the basis of communication but the insight that falls from that is what is where the value ultimately is. You still need that transactional capability to be a participant but gaining the insight and again guys like Kalani Sousa have some of that. You mentioned Pono, there's a lot of folks who can contribute to that pool of knowledge. And then we have to capture that in its own frame of reference of what it and bottle it somehow and use it as the transfer agent that allows people to move from one cultural domain to the other on that with the common denominator of communication through STEM as the connective element. In fact I was sitting here some of the hearing some of the conversation yesterday just thinking back to my own childhood and you know being raised here you kind of think island way and then you go off to the mainland to go to college or something and go off to work and and you find hey these guys think the same way I think even though they have nothing that they have no knowledge of coming to eat marsh and Kailu or anything like that they still think the same way so I feel connected now to the rest of the world because my thought process matches their thought processes so we have a may not agree but we have a frame of understanding each other anyway so I was really struck by that and I think that's a great value of suckness and I wish we had known about it before so we got to figure a way to get some folks on the islands up here now in October of next year I'm sure that will happen I'm sure that will happen because the mayor has a committed to a lot of things so we have in regards to education especially when it's about preparing the kids for the future so I believe I believe Jeldon will be coming back soon okay Jeldon you there at your own expense he controls the first ring so but when getting back to drones in and stem if you throw any element of stem on the table or any element especially drones or especially the airplane versions of drones a kid with any cultural background it doesn't matter what their cultural background is it doesn't matter whether they've been trained in science or trained in in linguistics or what their training has been they are going to sort of commonly be attracted to that functionality that capability and they'll do something with it in their own way so I think that there is always a point for drones in here as a that focal point and if anything ever began to flag just throw some drones in and you'll re-energize the whole office and to me I think you know the the most exciting piece of this is how do we transform the military industrial complex into the human security network and if you look at GPS which everyone uses now if I'm not mistaken it originally was designed so that a submarine was able to fire a nuclear ballistic missile and hit its target as long as it was top secret it wasn't able to help mom or dad or you know Uncle John find his way to Safeway on the other side of the island and yet once it entered the civilian domain there was such richness in what was able to be accomplished same thing with drones for the first five or ten years it was used in Afghanistan or in all these wars to deliver hellfire missiles and blow up you know terrorists but once we're able to put it back in the hands of children and the next generation hopefully we're going to be able to use the same technology that was originally designed for a strictly military destructive purpose or actually understanding our environment better and beginning to help them craft away forward let's let's finish with one in the last minute we have here with one challenge we can raise on our good friend Scott and we'll help you with the challenge by the way there's not just a bird you have to bear but we should think of ebi as being perhaps the most threatened of all the nations that are going to be represented as Sockness next year and come up with a really rich expression of exactly what Greg just said expressed by the kids themselves to the extent we can and have that as a as a theme or certainly a center point within the Sockness activity to show the rest of the attendees the value to to a group such as what you represent in that two dimension future preparing to migrate but also preparing to resilient as long as possible and let me ask you to think about that Scott and we're running out of time here so we won't have time to develop it on the show but next time you're back we'll sit here and lay out what that what that program looks like well do and so Scott Paul thanks for coming on all the way from you by Greg Nakano from sir away from one more thanks for coming on and gentlemen we'll see you again and mayor thanks for coming over now here at the show but around town we'll see you all in two weeks folks