 I'm the chair of the Cemetery Commission here in Montpelier and I'd like to just formally welcome you all and thank you all for coming on a rainy day. I'd like to call meeting to order and we're here. I would just like to introduce other commissioners who are here. We're here. Gary Ellerson is right here. Mary Nielsen is under the pink umbrella outside. And the burger is here on the left behind just outside. So if you have questions for us, we're here. And Patrick is really the expert and I would like him to take over at this point. Thanks, Patrick. Alrighty, thank you, Jake. So before to continue with introductions, that's Carl Griffith, my right hand man that works down here with me. And the rest of the work crew is from the Department of Corrections. We have a work crew that comes five days a week, May 1st and November 1st from St. Johnsbury. And they've been doing it since 1981. So welcome everybody. So today we're going to talk about what were some people may call green barrels. We're calling it natural barrel. It may be a little bit different. And we're not here to sell. We're just here to inform and to get feedback on what people would like in a natural burial section. As you can see behind us, that's the traditional cemetery row after row, monuments. They're buried either on their cremations, they're in urns or not in urns, or they're in caskets which are in concrete boxes. And when you do a concrete box, you can dig right next to it and not have a problem. This is going to be a little bit different. So everybody should have one of these little... What are the differences in comparison to Greenmount's traditional casket burial sheet? I'll go through it. If you've got questions, just ask at any time. So natural burial. The definition I'm going to use right now, and all of this can change. Keep that in mind. The definition that I'm using is a full body burial that stimulates natural decomposition. So what are the differences in comparison to Greenmount's traditional casket burials that are like on the other side of the cars? Number one, the goal is to decompose the body with very little environmental impact, which means using a biodegradable outer container, which could be a basket, such as this. The local funeral home wears and sun, brought that down for you to look at. Or a shroud or a natural wood only casket. Number two, the backfill. As you can see, what comes out of the ground is pretty clay-y. What we're going to backfill it with is a sand mix. We've got a sample of it here in the bucket. It's going to be sand, three-part sand, one-part compost that we make here. All the leaves from all the trees that we can pick up in the fall, put them over in the corner. We add some horse manure from a local farm, make it into compost, and we spread it around. So that's what we're going to be putting back in, because we want the decomposition process to start as quickly as possible. Also, when we're doing this, in order to make sure we don't ever run into it, run into the burial, because here we can run into a concrete box and it doesn't really bother the person that's digging or the person that's in the box. We will be putting a four to six inch layer of natural stone ledge on there. So we will always know where what they call the grave shaft is. So if we start digging and all of a sudden we run into this, we know we're too close. We'll have pins and stuff, but mistakes can happen. And so we want to make sure that we mark all the graves that way. When we're backfilling with sand and compost, there may be some settling that goes on. And so if you were to do a burial today and you come back a couple of days later or after the next big rainstorm, you might see it down six inches. It's just the settling and it's something to be aware of. And I think the sand is going to settle a lot faster than the clay. And that's been our experience with a couple that we've tried. So winter burials, we're open all year. And so we're thinking now in order to make sure that decomposition process starts as soon as possible, what you will see is you'll see bales of hay. We will cover it, you know, I don't know, eight or 10 of them, cover it with a foot of, what are they about? Are they a foot wide, Carl? Yes, 14 inches. 14 inches. Okay. So that we can keep the ground from freezing. In here in Vermont, the ground hardly freezes. In the wintertime, I've done it for 30 years. I can usually get into the grave, dig a grave without any frost. The most problem that I've had with frost is in April when the snow goes and it gets below zero again. So usually the ground is not frozen. The ground freezes, though, where you plow the snow. So if we don't plow it, we can usually dig to it. So that is a concern of many for both natural burials and casket burials. They want to be able to be buried in the wintertime. In this section, unlike that section there, flat markers only. We're not going to allow big elaborate monuments. If that's what you want, then you will go back to an area that is the conventional way. And we are looking at doing natural burials there, too, but there'll be a little bit of a difference. People have to understand it. There may or may not be able to do it depending on where it is in the ground. One of the problems we're looking at is water. Sometimes in the springtime we have a lot of water. It's coming off the hill. It's coming out of the sky. What do you do? People have to understand that if we do the natural burials, we will do the best we can to take most of the water out, if not all. But there may be times when part of the body may be in some water. It's just to understand that. So we're also looking at this grave here. It's not flat on the bottom. It's not level. It's level with the ground. You can take a look at it once I get out of your way. All the water would just come down to the foot anyways. So that's something to think about. The grave size, we're not quite sure on the size of the grave. Right now, and I call it cheek-to-cheek, conventional burials, cheek-to-cheek, you can get three and a half feet. Why? We're probably talking six or eight feet wide. We just have to figure it out because what we want to make sure is that if we dig next to this one here, for instance, how close can we get without that wall falling in? Because if it's not a family member, I want to make sure we stay separate. That's what my mind is thinking right now. If you had a family member, you could firm close really? Yes. If it's a family member and they liked each other, we will be touching. If you don't like each other, then you go back to the regular rule. But we could do that. And so that's the other thing we're trying to figure out is how do we design this section? Single graves, two graves, four graves. It's all new to us because of that issue of how close do we want to be? See grave size, but okay. Alright, so lots larger than two graves will need to be properly located in this section. What I mean by a section is once you're on grass, you don't cross the road. So this kind of a kidney shaped section, this would last a long time, I think, for just natural areas. And this is what we're looking at here. So upkeep of the area. We're not going to mow the lawn. The only thing that would be mowed is probably four to six foot strip right around the road. Everything else will be left to grow up. We will plant pollinators. We will plant trees and shrubs. We'll try to figure out a design. And it may be a progression type of thing where as we're moving along with burials, then we can put a tree in. Then we're not going to worry about killing the tree if we have to dig next to it. We're also going to, okay, so it'll be wildflowers. We're going to bush hog it or mow it once a year. In the fall, we would come through, clean it all up for the winter and then let it come back up in the springtime. We want it to look a little wild, but not too much. So the landscaping, it'll include pollinators, trees, shrubs, wildflowers, grasses, whatever people want, whatever we want. It's going to be an experiment. So what we're going to be looking at next year is a lot of this may end up going into a cover crop of oats, peas, and vetch, just to get the soil a little bit more enriched. And then other parts will be wildflowers. It's going to be an experiment at first, just so we can figure out how it's going to work. Not mowing all year, so let's say in July or August, if you wanted to come and visit a grave, would you be able to find it? Yeah, so you're going to have a marker, and so yeah, you would just wander through the grass and find it. Yeah, it wouldn't be a problem. Now the flat markers are going to be mandatory. You're not going to be able to not mark the grave. We want to make sure everyone's life is worth remembering, and it's got to be in stone. We got to know where it is, so when we're maintaining it, we know that there's something there. It doesn't have to be within the parameters so that you could use different types of stone. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. As long as it's flat, you can, you know, somewhat flat. If you've got a different idea, we may change it if we can place it in an area, but we really don't want a lot of upright. Because once you start going upright, then they're going to want monuments to come in. And so we got to figure this out. There may be, maybe there's a section that we have a few uprights. But for maintenance, we got to fit, you know, and so that's why I need people's input. And it's, you know, we're going to just make this work as we go along. Yes. I make a suggestion, which is, I think some of us might like the idea of planting a specific plant on the site as part of like the natural burial thing. Yeah. You know, that you could say, I want to pick out this kind of a bush. Yeah. But if it gets mowed every year, then they can mow around that. Yeah. So we're, like I was saying, we're going to be having trees. Some people are, they're going to want a tree planted. If they want it on them, that's fine. But once I, once we figure out the plan, we'll know where the lots are, where they can have a tree or a shrub or something. But we have to keep it somewhat uniform, somewhat looking nice compared to, you know, the rest of the, of the cemetery. That's a good question. Yes. I'm sorry, I was late. I was in the cemetery. Okay, that's all right. For 15 years. And did you enjoy yourself? Yeah, I was amazed at what I saw. Some beautiful, beautiful gravestones on the backside. What is the length of time that it takes for the body to decay? I am not sure on that. Because I'm wondering if this site can be reused or something near it? No, we're not, we are not in the mind frame of reusing that site. Once the body goes there, what you would reuse it for would be a tree or a shrub or something. But we're not going to, yeah, that would, and that's another reason why we're using a sand mix versus clay. We want the body to really decompose and they have issues in Germany from what I read. And I just got some academic papers from academic.com today about burials and how they decompose. So I haven't had a chance to read through them, but there's a lot of research going on on that part. But I don't see a Vermonter wanting to know that their land could be reused for something else or somebody else. But maybe it'll change in time. So talking about that, we are re-internment, which is digging up the body. It may be impossible to perform. People have to understand that. We do want every three or five years where they want to take mom and move her to California. We do that, but in this situation, it's going to be tough. But it's something that somebody wants, it would be very, it'll be very costly. Because it's just, yeah, exactly. So as far as pricing, we're still reviewing it. We haven't figured it all out yet because of all these little things. We're trying to just get input right now. So how did we know that this was a good section, not a good section? You're going to see dirt circles throughout this area. We had someone come through with their ground penetrating radar machine. Looks like a little lawnmower has the laptop up top here. It's printing out, showing all the bumps and stuff. And he went through and said, okay, this is the depth that you can. And it looks like most of this area we can dig down to the depth. Now, when we're talking depth, that's one of the changes. The difference is we're going to have green burials. You know, they can go three and a half feet deep now in Vermont. We're looking at just four feet. While it's only six inches more, we want to make sure that there's no issues with animals digging up. I really need to see some place that has weather conditions like Vermont, soil conditions like we have, that has done this at three and a half feet. While six inches may not be enough in my mind, I don't know what we would do if case something dug it up. We just want to make sure. Like I said, it's going to be progressing as we move along. And we may end up going to the three and a half feet. We find that it works. Well, no, I don't believe so. If you go five feet, I don't believe you'll have it. So that's why we want to make sure the sand is there. We want to make sure the compost is there. I don't know if there's any other microbes that we can add to the ground to get things going, but we do want to heat that. It's making compost. And so we want to heat that up and we want to do it right. We don't want to go halfway and then have it stop. And so this is an experiment. And in Vermont, soil temperatures, when you get too deep, it's never, it may not be high enough for, you know, we're not going to do test holes, but there is testing going on around. And we'll just pay attention. And we just hope that what we're doing is we're never going to disturb it. So we will pay attention to the results of these tests. No, no, no, there's other people around the world. There's actually body farms around and they're usually do it for forensics and they'll leave the body on the ground and they can see how long it takes for the bugs and stuff to start. But what is Lee's last name? Lee Webster. Lee Webster, who has written some books on green burials. She told me that they're doing some experiments and some research on decomposition because that is a main question. How will it work in the north? If this was out west, you know, and the ground was really hot, then I wouldn't have a problem. But being as cold as it gets here, that's the concern that I have. Yes. I'm assuming that there's no possibility of interspersing the natural burial spots, not locating them in any other place. Is that correct? Okay, so Deborah was asking, can you make natural burial spots in other locations of the cemetery? We have to look at that. We may, we're starting to do a little bit of that in some of the sections where somebody wants a monument. But this is going to be the main area for right now. There is a square mile behind us that's undeveloped and we would love to be able to purchase it someday. But that's someday. That's not today. Other questions, concerns that people might have? Yes. Can you build up? Instead of digging four feet down or maybe dig two feet down and build a mound two and a half feet up. Oh, that could be a possibility, but I'm really trying to focus on the maintenance. I'm trying to look how would we maintain that down the road? We have a mound there. The problem with mounds is settling. I don't think it'll work. In my mind, I want to be able to come through here in the fall and clean everything up. You know, it's like you're making your bed for the first time in two months. You make your bed, it looks great. And then it goes to Messi. That's how I am. Oh, you mean, yes, a level finish grade? Yes. Well, in the spring, yeah, there will be runoff on any hill in Vermont. We have to make sure that maybe we can go a little mound up. Again, we're just going to figure this out. We've done two experimental ones in the cemetery and both times they're flat and they're being mowed. So that's what we're used to. So that's a good question because it really didn't enter. There's so many parts of the logistics to this that we've got to just keep researching it all and looking at all of it to make sure that we do it right. We want to make sure that it's a proper decomposition of the body and that it's marked. Yes. Oh yeah, we go in and we fill it in. We pay attention to it. Yep. Oh yeah. And that will be another, you know, when we go to mow in the fall, we'll see where the depressions are or in the spring after the snow melts. That's probably the time we'll go through, fill it in, reseed it with whatever and just try to make things nice. Because what will happen is if you have a depression, it will collect water. So if you've got a rainy season, too much water in a compost doesn't work. See, we've got to try to figure out this balance. I don't know if anyone's ever made compost, but there's a balance between moisture and the dryness and the materials that are in it. You don't have to, because if it's too wet, it stings. So, yes. I just want to comment a little bit about our being forward in this movement and creating this option that is being a better steward of the land. Thank you. We've had a lot of input over the years from different people. And so it's like cremation. I started here 30 years ago. Cremation, we do maybe 40 burials or so a year. We were doing one cremation. That was brand new. Now that took off and now we're over 70% cremation. But now we're looking at this other option. So what Greenmount likes to have are options. We don't want to say that you have to have Berry Gray Granite Monument upright. You have to buy two graves. You can buy one grave and have an upright, just a smaller one. So that's what we're trying to look at is all kinds of options, individual spots for people for the burial of their loved ones. I think it's a good question. I'm just very interested. It's work done on this, but are there other green plots in Vermont? I think there's one in Southern Vermont. I believe Callis has one now. Maybe in the Robinson Cemetery. There's a movement over towards Burlington area that's trying to look at it. But a lot of it is the logistics. A lot of cemeteries in Vermont, the people that work there are part-time. They don't have a full-time job like I do. They're small cemeteries and they may sub out their mowing. They may sub out their digging. There's nobody that really oversees the cemetery itself for the cemetery. But it's coming. How big will it be? I don't know. I was told when I started to embrace cremation because it's coming hard. We're just going to follow the same thing with this idea. We're going to embrace it and let's see where it brings. What I'm seeing just talking to a few folks is that people that were being cremated may want to do this instead. We just got to see. We just want options. Yes. The greatest cost to... Natural variables. The greatest cost... I'm going to duck that answer and say the greatest cost is the maintenance of a cemetery. As we get bigger, as people change their mind in maintenance, that's where the cost is going to be. When I started 30-some-odd years ago, weed whackers, weed trimmers, they were a thing but they weren't a thing. Then they became the thing. If your lawn on Main Street or Liberty Street wasn't perfectly trimmed, your neighbor would say something. I grew up on Liberty Street and we were using... Now, what happens to those hand clippers? They stayed in the barn and stayed there because we didn't. Everybody expected the place to look like a golf course, but they weren't all paying $2,000 a year to come here. It's the maintenance of the cemetery. When this first started the cemetery in 1852, there was no lawnmores. Monuments down there in the old section are big. Their family name was usually right about this height. Why? Because when the hay grew, you could still see the family name. Then, as things changed... Because they were smart enough to know that if we were going to be pushing lawnmores on these hills, they would have picked a spot that was level, but they didn't. We would like to get back to... We let the grass go long. As long as we can have it even look and people drive by, they... Oh, yeah, something Jerry looks good. It's when it's not even that they get upset. Everything about... Yes. Some sweet things, but cheaply goes too long. It could work. I would love to. Because they work 24 hours a day. But again, maybe someday it could be. It's very long. Well, and that might be a situation where we could experiment that, where someone brings down goats or sheep. But the problem with... We got to make sure that they're not going to be eating the trees and the shrubs that are in there. There's always a... And we have enough deer that come down that will nibble on a lot of stuff. The hostas. Yeah, the hostas. Pure green hostas they like. Some of the hostas that are blue-green or that have a white margin around them, they don't touch. We got an example down front. Someone was complaining the other day that their hostas get eaten all the time and the woman's hostas next to her don't. But they're different kinds. Yes. Could you imagine the maintenance cost going down? In that section, yes. So, for instance, if we were to buy 25 acres in the woods... Okay, maintenance would be way down. We have a section up called Woodland Gardens up in the back, which is Woodland. Just for cremation, we hardly do anything in there. We have some paths we'll go through. We'll put some wood chips down on the paths and that's it. So, yes, natural burials could someday, if they're all flat markers. What we're worried about are the works of art made out of granite that a tree could come down on. When we buy a pot, we're really collectively supporting the maintenance of the entire cemetery. Yes, yes. You know, there's perpetual care fund. And, you know, our perpetual care fund is public information. It's a public fund. Is it almost... Where's Jake? Oh. Is it like $900,000, $950,000? Is it up to that now? Do you know, Mary? Jake would know. But anyways, to run this place, we need more like two and a half million to be able to take the interest off to maintain the cemetery because there's state laws on how you can invest it. As far as you can't go 100% stock, you can only go up to 60% stock. The rest is bonds and really safe because it's got to just keep growing. And so, if you know of anybody that would like to make a donation to the community, we would be glad to help them out. But that's the big, you know, maintenance is the big cost, you know? And when it's on a hillside, it's even more. And because of wintertime, people want to be able to get up here in the wintertime. So this road is usually open. It may be three or four days after a snowstorm, but you can usually get up here, you know, most of the winter. And if we're going to have natural burials up here, we'll definitely have it open. But a lot of people do want to be able to come to their site in the wintertime. Other questions, concerns? Ask anything, because this is all new to me. And I just, I'm trying to look at every little, every little spot and how we're going to design it. Can we ask you what you're doing right now? Sure, sure. If John wants to talk about the basket. What we have here is a bamboo wicker basket. It's one of many options, but we basically came up with three different packages to test them out and how that goes. It starts with if a family member dies and the family wants to produce their own cascades. It's X amount of dollars. And it steps up to a natural linen plosh route. And then the next step is an unfinished pine box. And then it finishes with this here. It was essentially our three options. This particular company makes many different styles of this, but this is pretty affordable. And I think it looks great. And this is what we've kind of ended up for now. Can we see the inside of it? You sure can. It just takes a moment to undo it. Climbing is kind of uncomfortable. I don't think it's... I understand. Is that made out bamboo, would you say? It is made out bamboo. Which would also... Yes, yes. The idea is that this container is going to break down roughly at the same rate as the body. So it's not coming in between the body and that natural process of decomposition that happens underneath the soil. And there's one more here? No, it's gone. I guess it's a distraction, sir. Oh, we'll have to tie the handles. You can have your own step right here. You can lie in it. You can try it out. Could you just go through those options again from the one that you think is... So the most affordable from that standpoint would be if you hire our services. So that's basically taking care of the logistics of all of this. It may sound that we're just going to the cemetery. There's logistics. It takes time. How are we going to care for the remains in that period of time? I'm going to actually talk about that in a moment. So if you just hire our services, let's say there was someone's craft you wanted to build their own container by all means. By all means, you would have to meet certain standards. I mean, Pat, I'm going to talk a little about that amongst ourselves to come up with standards for that. I.e. no finishes, no harsh glues, those kind of things. And then the next step is a burial shroud. I kind of wish I had brought it today, but a burial shroud is linen. What's interesting is on the underside of that has these slats. Okay, because if you can imagine lowering somebody into a grave in a shroud, you're only going to have the hammocking effect. So these slats kind of help with that. And then there's actually incorporated strapping within this. So potentially four people could lower right into the ground. Then it steps up to an unfinished pine casket. There's no lining to it. It's a six-sided box. And then the pine kind of ends up on something like this. So that's looking at it from a financial, from a cost basis? Mostly, yeah. So you're looking at it from a decomposing basis? Well, I would dare say, I would dare say, I don't know. You know, those questions are hard. We're not scientists in that, but I would dare say that probably the shroud would probably be from a decomposition point of view. And then perhaps this and then maybe the pine box. The less you put between your body and the soil, the more the interaction between your body and the soil. So as far as preservation, so to say, there's a time period between so many dyes and when we get Pat to come up here, clean this up, big degrade. Let's say, well, let's say two days is probably going to be average. So what we're waiting for two days. And that's average. Now, a couple of variables there would be doctors. Doctors would get the desperate sign that happens on a weekend. Doctors just don't sign desperate sign. It's just how it is. And then we can apply for some permits. Pat's going to need some time to plow this out potentially, dig the grave. So what happens if there remains it? So we're actually going to use refrigeration. There's no involvement. And that is not conducive to what we're talking about here. And we can provide refrigeration at the funeral. At the funeral, that's right. Is there a time limit then to that? Not necessarily. So that's the best answer that just depends. Most often, no. I've had people in our refrigerator for weeks. Oh. Yeah, yeah. So you don't have to resort to the freezer? So we don't have a freezer. So we sort of have a freezer down front, which is our vault, which is not heated or not cooled. So in the wintertime. In the wintertime, that's definitely a potential to use that. And it does freeze. But again, there may be some extras that if, one of the issues that we, excuse me for interrupting, that we run into is that somebody wants to be buried within so much time. And then all of a sudden, Uncle Frank is in Italy. Uncle Frank's got to be there. And so we're here running around, getting everything ready. And then I get the call. Don't worry about it for another week. Because, you know, our uncle is in Italy and he can't make it. So you got those are the little things that can really mess things up. And so you got to be aware of that. And just by, and I'm glad he brought this down because this is so, this is so new to us. Carl and I didn't know how wide this was. It was like two feet. We're digging that hole there at 40 inches wide to accompany a vault, a concrete box. So that's why we have to, all these little logistics, will now know how wide we can make the actual grave. And how? I don't, 17. Usually there's 96. Well, 96 is what we dig, but this one's 78. So if we were to dig, you know, so that, we'll probably dig the same length. We want plenty of sand and compost around it. So what if you decided you want this kind of a burial and you say you'd die in California? Yeah, so that's, so. Good question. Question, right? There's logistics there. And we just have to figure it out. So to ship somebody. It is a possibility, but it's really going to be case by case. And if you're interested in this type of a burial, you also have to consider the carbon footprint of shipping somebody across the country. There are places you can have green burials in California. So, you know, that would be something where you'd need to talk. You know, and that's something that we can help people sort through what's really going to be the best. And interestingly, we used to have a, all airlines kind of follow the same rule that in order to ship human remains on a carrier like that, you have to, we'd actually have a certificate of involvement we'd have to present, and that's no longer the case. They actually use dry ice now. And so I got to actually, I'm not, we don't do a lot of shipping for whatever reason. Thankfully, because it's over the bottom. So we just don't do a lot of that. I have to do a little research and exactly what's announced on shipping somebody. Normally, how do people get to your funeral home from the hospital? We don't. You go and you have a truck. We have a van, we have a hearse, but most of the permit is a van. So if you get shipped out from California, you'll be going into Boston. Then John goes down to Boston and pick you up. They used to fly into Burlington. That was great. We zoomed up there, going back, all the way to Boston, all the way back. It's a challenge, yeah. So in that scenario, if you already chose or purchased a plot here and died somewhere else and then ended up being cremated, could you still have your ashes? That's a great question. Have your what? Your ashes. Oh, sure. If you were too far away. Yeah, yeah, sure. And interestingly, there are natural pipe-ons that can get pretty, something that could be a comp. Now what about just, currently we can bury just the ashes, correct? Right, the cremated remains can go in the ground without an urn. We're not one that requires an outer container around the urn, like concrete vault, but it's for cremation. Many cemeteries do that because, guess who sells the concrete vault? For cremation. The cemetery does. So speaking of that, getting back to the spirit of cremation, so first is a huge carbon footprint there, we're burning fossil fuels. I think I asked a fellow the other day, and it's around 15 gallons of propane each cycle. So is that. The other thing to know is once cremated remains processed and in the urn, the pH of that is approximately 11, so the pH is super high on that. It's very acidic. Those are things to consider. We're speaking of the spirit of conservation and steward sparrows. On top of it, you've got carbon. Silicone steward. From what I've read, particularly if you're interring cremated remains in a natural way, you've got to create a compost mix, and you've got to balance out that acidity with other materials so that what's going into the ground isn't going to be this hotspot of acidic material. It's going to, then, because it'll kill your tree. If you have a tree planted above it. You should really kind of ask your family about the cycle. So per cremation, so one person gets cremated, that's the cycle. And that's propane. There's other fuels that, depending on the resource that they have, they use it. And natural gas is another option. Some people use it, some places use it. Propane is kind of the primary fuel. So, Pat, you mentioned that there might be the possibility in the future of some forest area for three areas as well. That's our hope, but I've been hoping that for 20 years. Because from what I've read, forest in terms, you can pose quicker because there's a lot more soil activity and stuff that it is all along. It's good to know that you're thinking in terms of the pollinator. We would like, you know, so, and this is just thinking out loud. Out loud. So what if we had... We can close this up. We'll keep them shut enough. I feel like to get on the ground. We want it to be nice. We can do it like, we can do it off-sat it too. Yeah, we can, so here. Could we plant a forest on top of it? Could be an apple orchard. It could be... Could we do that? We could. And maybe that's what we should be looking at. But when you're in the woods, you're going to use a lot more land because you've already got the trees there. I'd rather see it as the foundation then put the trees on. So that may be, you know, I've been sketching out things and I said, oh, maybe we'll have a little corner apple section and maybe a little corner, you know, pears. I mean, I like, you know, I like food. And so... And the deer do. The deer and the turkeys. So, you know, we got to, you know, keep everybody fed. So, you know, but that's a good point. And if that gets to, you know, if we do that, then we're not going to go through and push-hog everything. The trees would be there. And that might be a great thing to try. I just got to hear what people are thinking about. I like the apple orchard idea. Okay. Plums. Plums? Yeah. Okay. We're going to change more food crews in the row up here. Pitches. Yeah, yeah. Pineapples. A vineyard. A vineyard. A vineyard. A vineyard. And then... There you go. Grandmas line. Grandmas line. Grandmas line. Okay. There you go. Wow. All right. You just solved your financial problem. Okay. It's going to be a vineyard up here. We're going to change. Soon you'll be able to grow quinoa and it will be like burgundy. All right. We would be on the bus tour for the wine stops. You... Thank you. We got something going here. You got to start thinking. Yeah. It's crazy. Outside the box. Right. Well, that's, you know, and that's... That's your slogan right there. That's why we went ahead about 30 years ago, put in black walnut trees down front because we were taking out all these trees that we weren't getting any money. We were paying. And now when those black walnuts come out, hopefully we'll be able to get some money back. You know. And so we're... It's like, yeah. Good. Great. Yeah. Outside the box of wine. Yes. Outside the gray box, right? No. Just outside the box. Okay. Outside the box. So I just want to say, I've been around in this business, I've been doing this on 16th of November, but I've been around the longest to see the evolution from a traditional burial and it kind of all leans to cremation now. And I'm excited to usher this in. This is a real good thing. And I'm excited about it. And Michelle and Pat, and this is a great opportunity for everybody. And I just think this is wonderful. I'm really excited about this. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. The whole thing is on the 28th of September, we're going to talk a little bit more of what we do on the other side of things. And so hopefully if you're right, we'll be there. That'd be one o'clock. One o'clock on the 28th. And in particular, the number one question, how much? And we're going to go over all that. At our funeral. It's behind the library. Yeah. So that's the number one question, how much? How much does it cost? And so we're going to talk about all that. And then we'll have this time about the three examples that I said and how long it's presented. And then what families need to make decisions about the families? It's way less. Cremation? Yeah. Cremation is definitely going to be more. Definitely more than cremation, but as far as a traditional burial, about half, if not even more than half. So before you leave, just make sure that we have your name and address so that when we have other things that come up, we may also do a team meeting at the senior center. Just make sure you get your contact name and number or email for us so that we can let you know what's happening and throw the ideas out at us. Because what I've always done and the commissioners have supported it is we want everyone to have an individual burial down here. We don't want people to be told what to do. We don't want people to be told they have to have a great big monument with their big family name on it. If they want something flat, something small, great. We're not going to discriminate. We're not going to advocate any... Which way? Yes. When are you having... When is the first... When are you... You're talking about... Thinking about... When is this going to be ready for sale? So in order for us to sell something, we have to have it surveyed and the plot plan given and recorded in City Hall. So it will be this fall. We just had the ground radar. We've got the surveyor. Once we bury the surveyor's brother today at 11.30 or 11, he's going to come in, survey things. And now that I've gotten some ideas of what people may be looking for, I can start designing that section and say, you know, possible orchard section, you know, whatever. And we'll go for it from there. But it will be this fall. We'll be ready to... Now, if somebody was to die and they needed to be a green burial... I mean, a natural burial here, we could probably figure something out. So I'm not selling you that actual lot yet before it gets surveyed than the state probably. And there's really no cemetery police anyways, but we do want to pay attention to what the law says. Yes. Would you just comment about... a natural burial? Is it a green burial? Would you just... So it's kind of like... in my mind, green burials, there are standards. So you can be certified by the Green Burial Council as strictly green. It's a lot like me when people say organic. What is an organic vegetable when you have used diesel tractors to grow all of it? You can say it was grown with organic methods, and we can do burial... So this is my version of that was saying we're going to call it natural burials because we don't want someone to come down and say oh, that's green and green means this. Like... I like it. That's fine. I think it's the depth. I think it's also... We took a bulldozer to this piece of land to make a somewhat level area. So I don't know all of their... So from a funeral standpoint we could approach the Green Burial Council and get green certified and say what it comes down to is a blessing. You pay me money and we'll bless you if you're good to go. You've got a certain mean standard. I don't want to say it like that, but you pay... I don't even want to go down that road because it's sort of nonsense. Just for that certification I'm not really interested in grabbing that at this point. Maybe down the road I'll change my mind but as it stands now I'm not looking to get certified for that. For exactly that reason. I think we can do the same thing without paying anybody to say so. If people are thinking and want to send you some more thoughts that they have is there a link to your email? Yeah, is there on that sheet there is that my address up there? Yeah, Cemetery at Montpellier Dice VT. At a larger... Oh yeah. Can I add something? Yes. In the Front Forge Forum I searched the archive for Cemetery and there was a posting from the Calis Commission and a link to their town and there's a really interesting two-page paper on how they're doing green burials that was really just helpful, descriptive, like what the person needs to know ahead of time. And that I think they're maybe the closest local example. And that's something that we can help families with. That's part of what we're here for is CERC families because there's a lot that you need to think about ahead of time. So certainly that's something that we can offer to families including keeping the casket giant. Right? So Michele, I don't know if everybody... I have your card, but I don't know other people. Oh, okay. All right. Okay, great. All righty, feel free to ask questions and if you have any cemetery questions even if it's a cemetery outside of here, just ask me. I don't mind helping, okay? Thank you very much. Thank you guys.