 Hello, okay Good morning everyone My name is Rocky Mandhanya, and I am the business director of QD42 for Canada Very thrilled to be here and thank you all for coming Today's session is about the crossroads of data UX and content strategy all from the perspective of a design revamp and We'll get to that in a little bit Since it's Drupalcon and everybody's so full of energy, I kind of wanted to share something that I'm very excited about Yesterday I ran into my very first customer which was probably a decade ago or maybe more than that here at Drupalcon and Something that I was so stoked about that it took me down that road of nostalgia Where you start thinking about how things have evolved in the past decade or more I went back a little bit further and Kind of started thinking about some of the past work that I did. It even made me change my opening slide So I want to start with a small story once upon a time And I say that once upon a time because it was a really long time ago. I Feel a very long time ago the most important part of a website or the most important thing for a website Was that it had to look? Exactly the same on every single browser. I Don't know if you all sound make that sound familiar or not, but I once had a client who would look at the website and point out things like the space between this Headline and the text is 20 pixels here, but it's 18 pixels there and It sounds kind of weird now, but at that point in time we went in and fixed those things and time passed we learned and Slowly started convincing our clients that for the sake of performance. Let's not fix these tiny pixel issues Then came the age of responsive websites and people realized that When you look at a website or your mobiles Mobile screen it should not look the same as that on a 27 inch screen for example Otherwise no one would be able to read anything and Then people started looking at Twitter or Facebook and realized that they look so different on Desktop versus mobile, but you still know it's Twitter. You still know its Facebook because the branding is coming across clearly Just the experience is a little bit different and then the focus shifted towards user experience mobile first designs, right So at this point in time I was very happy because I started developing websites Which were functional beautiful to look at even scratch the surface of accessibility and SEO to some extent Wow, wonderful, right? What else could you have done and then? My cherry on the cake was that I was continuously doing process improvements I was optimizing things creating templates for everything I even introduced the concept of discovery and spring zero and I was on top of the world I'm like what else can go wrong and Then came the moment of truth. I just finished a project and As a project rapper activity, I was supposed to provide inputs for writing a case study So the head of my marketing team comes to me and asks me So what business goals? Did you help your customer chief and I had so much to say about the project because I was so deeply invested in it I even knew the strong password of the 15 character with uppercase and lowercase and mixed letters by heart But when I reflected on that question My answer was I don't know or actually I'm not sure I'm not sure of what business goals did I help them achieve did I actually even help them achieve any of their business goals and that made me think and Question and talk to people other people in the industry and turns out a lot of people in the industry were also having the same dilemma and Had some common themes or common thought process of what was happening So I want to bring that common themes first to you just to set the context of what we're going to talk about The first one being we get in and we get out So we do a website revamp projects where we get in we do our work six months one year two years on the line And then we say bye because that's it right we've ultimately sold them the concept of a very Rich and intuitive content management system where the editorial experience is so good that you don't need a tech agency You don't need a digital agency past lunch So that's actually good return of investment. You can do things on your own. So we don't know what happens after right Then the dog mark entering a project remains the same So we've been in the industry for X number of years. We do things a certain way it works and We'll continue to do it that way because it has worked in the past. I'm sure it'll work in the future Even though every business could be different. It's comprised of different individuals But if you're doing a thousand municipality websites, then of course, you know how to make it work We are fulfilling the marketing goals and not the business goals this is one very common theme and very interesting in fact because The website per se is often owned by a function of the business and So all of the interactions that we have and anybody that we talk to any goals that we identify Are essentially related to that function of the business and maybe not the business as a whole So we don't really know if we help them achieve any of their business goals and This is my favorite Only the brilliant design team is involved in the discovery process After all time is money. We cannot involve a 20 people team for doing a design discovery right it doesn't make sense and then Content comes in sometimes sometimes later if it does I Was talking to a content strategist a few days ago and she was very open and expressive about how mad she was about getting calls for website projects where The project was almost near completion and the budget was all almost finished and she was told to just write the content and Then she was mad at digital agencies like us where we would leave the content to our customers Knowing fully well that they may not have the right skills or the capacity to actually do it and Then she was mad at the designers who were creating these beautiful placeholder block boxes with Laura Mipsum written on it Sounds somewhat familiar and then expect that someone somehow Someone would magically make the content fit into those boxes and that's it and Then the most common underlying concern as well as theme that came out Was that these research outcomes even if we do discovery the outcomes of the discovery are not as impactful as we thought they could be and Everybody just questions why but probably not enough to kind of find out the answers so We step into the research also known as discovery phase and I'm gonna talk about that a little bit more because I feel that For us as digital agencies if we have been doing Website redesign What we generally do and what we do wrong in fact is we go in we design a website Deliver it and then maybe sit on the sidelines and put out fires once in a while build one new feature one new box one new page one new template and A couple of years later fashion changes, right? you move away from your drop shadows to parallax effect to flat designs and Voila, that's it. That's all you had to do But as digital agency like and as designers I guess that's not what we're intending to do our intention is to get to know our customers Get to know their businesses and actually help them achieve something and be happy at the end of the day that we Did something valuable? No for sure. No the bigger picture The benefit of doing discovery or research is not that it tells you what you should make today It actually tells you what you should make next After launch because it doesn't end with launch whatever you've identified and whatever Investment we are making now gives us the long-term vision of what what can this website become? It may not be in the budget to do everything right away But you certainly know that there are other problems which you couldn't solve in the very first attempt And you have the possibility of getting to them a little bit later Right, so the content strategist was mad about content coming in very late in the picture was probably right because a Discovery isn't complete unless we bring in content unless we bring in UX and we actually define a strategy That is scalable that lasts and that can be re-evaluated from time to time if it doesn't fit Which means that you cannot actually step out of the project right when it's done and delivered and I'll come to the budget Question a little bit later I'm sure that's the next pressing thing that it's on everybody's mind that you deliver a project because it was scoped at X dollars and now you're done now you move on to the next one. So how do you still stay invested? So we'll get to that but the first thing that you think of when you think of discovery is what kind of data to collect right and Please don't tell anybody but at one point in time. I created a discovery template and Now that I know better. I know that I cannot really create a discovery template Even if I'm doing 10 websites for the same industry higher ed government Non-profits But every business is different because it's comprised of different individuals So how I approach the discovery will be very much different depending on what the objectives are What I can't templatize though is a pre-discovery questionnaire I know I'm adding another step to the process But a pre-discovery questionnaire is something that any business can use and send out and The responses that we get as an outcome of that pre-discovery questionnaire is what Helps us decide the plan for discovery So I'm going to share some of the questions and this is not an exhaustive list of course I'm sure all of you have probably done it at some point in time and if you've not then you can probably find this useful But some of the very common themes that I'm very interested to know about any business that I interact with I'm gonna share a few of those questions So starting with the very basics Asking them to tell us about the project in general asking them about what's the most important problem that this will solve I Asked this question very recently to a municipality in US where I asked them How should I learn about their business and industry and the point person in contact was somebody from the marketing and communications team and Then this person was so happy with the question that He set up a follow-up call with four other stakeholders who've been with the city for the past 20 years who knew the history who knew how things have evolved who knew everything in and out and made them speak no questions asked just like talk about yourself and The valuable insights and the surprising insights that I found Even after dealing with a n number of municipalities I did not know that These things existed and it also gave me a better picture of the industry in general Asking people what their motivation for the project is how they would describe success for the project I don't think it's on us to set up the success criteria for any project I think it should come from the business and Then what results are they expecting after launch? Are they expecting that from thousand visitors? They will have a million visitors overnight Is that even an achievable goal? If not, is there something that we can educate them about or are their goals actually something that's tangible? And we would like to solve those goals in some way or the other and that's how it goes into our measurable business goals list And then what's your desired timeline for product launch? I've often skipped asking this question only to realize a month later that they want to do a two-month project Which is estimated to be done in two years And there's no way that I can do that much agile to actually put it in two months So important things to ask and then about the customer When you hear them describing their teams and their company There's a very different level of value alignment a very different level of attachment and investment that you start feeling from day one So it's important to ask even if you don't work with everybody from the company But maybe they don't know that there is a certain stakeholder Who should be a part of the discovery but you get to know when you ask them this question because you hear them say Talk about their teams with that same level of enthusiasm The core values the company missions and goals Maybe all of those goals are not going to be achieved with the website I'm sure but if there is something that they are not looking to you could probably find some surprising evaluations just by asking these questions and Then even if I've done a lot of a lot of projects from the same industry I would still ask this question consistently because the take an individual and a business has over their own industry Could be very different from how they see someone else and it also gives you other information about What they think they represent or what they think they are trying to do with the people for the people and Then you ask questions about the website and the market what problems what goals and if they've done any research and Is there anything that they can learn from the feedback? I even ask what are the three most least important things about the website and The first answer that I get sometimes is nothing. I mean, it's my website. It's important. Everything is important But then when they think back they often come out with their own Realizations that you know, I never wanted an encryption on this web form I don't even see the data that has been collected. Why am I? Investing extra on something that I don't require to even need this page So it makes them retrospect their own choices and relevance of the content that is in place and Then what is your why is your website different than the other websites on the market? Even if the website is not in a great shape, they would it's still their baby It's still their product so they would talk about it as if it's something wow and it is But when you hear it from them, that's how you realize that you need to keep that difference of how it stands out Continued even in your revamp project And then the long-term goals with the website I never end with asking what you want to do six months from now or a year from now I kind of want to know what people want to do five years from now Some people may have a very short term vision But some businesses kind of know that you know a website is an ongoing Project you continuously update it because your users are evolving their needs are evolving your business is evolving So things change and they have their vision kind of mapped out Which is probably not critical for everybody to know and so they don't share it because you're only building a website for them But if you know that in piece of information Maybe you can recommend them something that they wouldn't have otherwise thought of Only because you've done so much work to know that and so you bring that expertise to the table and make them recommendations based on it and then content Asking questions about the content strategy documentation Who all contribute to the content who all have authority to contribute to the content and how do these people play together? There are for example, if you go to think of universities There are so many departments and every department is important. All the department heads are not always in agreement and so Content takes a very different tone and voice depending on which department it is but Often people fail to realize that it's still a sub-brand the department is still a sub-brand of that particular university So it needs to speak in the same tone If not anything else So if there is no content strategy in place and if there is nobody actually Looking at how content is being updated or added then maybe it'll all Be fine to them as a as the business owners, but not good for the users So you would want to ask those questions and get whatever information you can When was the last time you evaluated the content now? This is I don't get anything meaningful out of this question But I still ask it because it just makes them retrospect What is your vision with the website related to the content? What impact is it supposed to create? Are you planning on re-bamping? Even if they're not planning they would often ask the question of What does it cost or you know, how much time will it take? So they started thinking about it. They may not want to do it right then and there But at least they will feel the need to do it assuming people do it and because you're asking the same question And then oh, this was another interesting question that I asked So I don't know if you all have experienced that phase where you design a very beautiful website It has amazing images because you're just doing the design for now And then when it goes live and it has the real content The images break your heart because you wanted to look beautiful and it doesn't and It's not because of CSS or anything It's just that we don't have good quality images and not everybody has the capacity to go ahead and hire a bunch of Videographers and photographers to do it but this question when I asked to the municipality that I was talking about I Got to know that they have an in-house team of Emmy award-winning videographers and photographers a Municipality to have a team of videographers and photographers was something that I was not expecting and I was in naive to make an assumption that they would probably not but I still asked them anyways and Got to know that now I have more power of What I can create with the design because I know that my content is going to be beautiful and then obviously about the users and not just the Current users or who are actually using the website, but also ask questions about the target users and What user what do they expect from the users? How should they behave? Often deep down a lot of people from the staff of the business of who operate who deal with the Contact form submissions for example or a feedback form would have better insights of knowing what problems users are facing People who are in an office and receiving a phone call saying that I am stuck on this page And I can't move forward is the real problem that doesn't come out when you only talk to the business So making sure that you get answers to some of these questions if not all during the pre-discovery phase itself is pretty important and Then obviously a lot of design questions you ask for the brand guidelines You ask if there are any similar websites that you like I also like to ask if there are websites from other industries that are inspirational and and When you ask about these kind of questions you understand what they're Not just what the users would want, but what the business Thinks of themselves like as a representative. So for example if somebody says I like Apple as a website Because it has a lot of white space. It just gives me the feeling of luxury So that's a jewelry website that I was talking about now This jewelry website thinks that they're catering to a specific target audience which deal in buying luxury products and so creating that white space and giving that sense of luxury is important So these kind of answers you get when you ask them questions about anything and everything So I and I'm sure that some of these answers would be clear and some would not but whatever we can find will at least help us decide how to go ahead with the next steps and And then I also asked them what they don't like about certain websites because a carousel is often Somebody's favorite and often something that's most hated Really weird surprises and interesting answers that you get when you ask these questions and Then finally the last segment of pre-discovery questions is about the competition Even if they're not in a competitive industry in the sense that It's not exactly making money or let's say it's a not-for-profit They will still be there will still be players in the same industry who they look up to who they like who they See that they have certain features that I wish I had and so on and so forth So anything and everything that you can find out from them about the competition would be a healthy question to ask And now that we have a pre-discovery questionnaire We have some valuable insight Now we can create a plan for discovery how to approach it the next important question that comes is who all should be a Part of the discovery and I would never have a set list of people Without actually knowing what the answers to my pre-discovery questionnaire is to know who all should be a part of the discovery But there are always certain users that should always be there no matter what and I'm not talking about job roles I'm just talking about The questions that people want answered so if you know for example If you know that There are certain types of questions that people in the organization Care about and you are trying to found find the answers to those questions Then you would also know who to ask those questions to For example, if something is going wrong in the analytics and they don't know what the deal with that is Maybe you have the right answer, but you have to ask a few more questions And there is a certain user role or a certain job role that can best answer those questions So that will be what those roles will also be a part of the discovery or at least a part of some kind of Interview or stakeholder questions or something So knowing what kind of questions people want answered is important to know who to invite to the discovery workshop and What do people need and who can answer those questions? So once you have this information The very basic research groups that should be a part of every discovery comes out to be People who work in the discipline your research your clients teams researchers product managers people who interact with the website on a regular basis the business the stakeholders the current users the target customers and Anybody and everybody who makes or influences any kind of design or content decisions they should all be a part of the discovery process in itself and Sometimes it's hard to get your business stakeholders because they have something more valuable to do with their chime I'm sure but when you go ahead and say that I'm going to need you to just participate in this 30-minute interview because I don't think I can design a website without your inputs Who would say no to that right? So there's always a way to get people's attention and there's a way to get the right attention and make it impactful The first way to do it For me is to make sure that everybody knows what to expect from discovery Not make it jargon heavy not use a lot of buzzwords that are famous in the industry because we use it We do it and so everybody should know it Just make it simple make it clear make the language clear let people know what to expect from the discovery What to come prepared with you can always have surprise elements and questions and activities That they don't need to know in advance because you wouldn't want to get their unconscious biases in the responses But at least giving them a high-level picture of what to expect from the discovery how their participation is and what's next How do you keep them engaged even after? So once you have all of these people Your own working team is my final and the most important element of the research group or the discovery participation and the reason I say your own working team is because sometimes we only involve Certain team members who are supposed to be carrying out or facilitating the discovery But I have found amazing results by adding my entire team and by entire team I mean the tech team who's who doesn't even know the requirements until the Mean discovery is done. They get to know about it a little bit later But they sometimes have very valuable insights to add in fact one of the wow moments that I had very recently was I had this customer who wanted to convert their 25 years of work that was on an Excel onto a website So their whole business was operating out of Excel for 25 years and they wanted to move it online and It was a big design thing because it was 45 tabs on the Excel sheet with formulas and everything talking to each other and not very interesting for a lot of other people but For the business very important and for me I had to understand it to kind of facilitate the project and for the design team They had to understand it because they were designing it For the tech team, however Until the designs were created. There was actually no need to do it But I got so excited by looking at the Excel that I thought let me evaluate Let me find out what's happening and share it with everybody. So I did a two-hour session Explained everything that I understood to the team and The most interesting insights actually came from the tech team While the design team was thinking of how to convert tables into a responsive layout The tech team had something that that the design team could use While doing the design itself as in they brought out what Drupal could do or they brought out What they had done on some other projects and how excels worked and etc etc so Knowing or involving other people of your team is as important as anybody who's a key facilitator and Again, I understand that you know time is money and you wouldn't want to invest the time of everybody When they're not actually doing any activity during the discovery. There are other ways of engaging them You can always have an open Slack channel Let the discovery Conversations and everything flow into it. Let the questions be posted on the channel Let the links to documents be there if somebody is curious if you catch people's attention while they're curious They may add something valuable to it. So that's not exactly Taking away their time, but if people have something valuable to contribute they will You can also have if you're working from an office and not remote Put out your discovery on a wall It's a beautiful colorful wall and I've seen so many that sometimes when you cross through Discovery wall and see how the cards are laid out or how people are talking about certain business problems You get curious I've often had interesting insights from other unrelated projects brought out to mind Just because somebody was passing by and looked at it and got curious. How are you doing this or how is that done? And while we are helping each other, we might also end up helping the business a little bit better and Then what research methods to evolve? That should fit the questions Sometimes you would want to do interviews sometimes you would want to do a workshop sometimes you would want to do a mix of two Or send out surveys because you cannot get everybody in the same room I was doing a project for UNICEF where they were there were 190 countries involved There was no way that I could talk to every single stakeholder, but we could always send out surveys We could send out questions Asking the right questions to get the right answers was the challenge not dealing with 190 countries That was something that was easy to do to be honest and then While we've done all of this All of the data that we have gathered is only as good as the people who interpret it So now I'm only 50% done because I did the discovery The main job of making sure the discovery is impactful is actually the synthesis Reading the data and analyzing and drawing conclusions and making sure that everybody who has an opinion gets to express it is More important than anything else that we have done so far And there are ways to do it which people often forget sometimes It's just one designer and one design lead or two three team of a team of two three people who get together Look at the excel sheets and the responses and everything and put together a beautiful Figma presentation and tell you that you know This is the synthesis But that doesn't bring out the right data sometimes or at least the right evaluation sometimes So what we do is we get together where everybody who has had any kind of interaction with a stakeholder comes to the room We're not looking at one person's design We're just collating the outcomes of all the interviews that we've conducted and so we ask simple questions again And if somebody says something we also ask them to say it again in a different way sometimes Because often we don't understand what They might have interpreted from a certain surprise response But if we ask them poke them a little bit more our own teams will have better story telling Ideas and when they bring out those stories that they evaluated We have the best and the most impactful answers from all of the research that we have done and when we presented to our participants from the discovery workshop and all of the stakeholders we get a sense of The the right business goals to approach and we are able to put some tangible numbers something that can be measured and While we are doing all of this there are always buts there always questions of what is possible and I Don't have a researcher or I don't have the time or I don't have the budget and I don't know how to justify the ROI to my client or to my team. I Don't have answers to everything, but I'll touch upon these a little bit. So for not having a researcher I don't think we need a researcher for doing this if you have a team that is well enough equipped to do it Wonderful, but even if you don't a lot of your preliminary work was done with the pre-discovery questionnaire Now you just need people just manpower to actually ask the right questions and when you bring those people together in one room and Let them share their stories Non-researchers present as valuable insights as researchers do And then when it comes to time and the budget I'm sure there's no way to calculate or justify the ROI in dollar value today but if I am redesigning a website every five years from now and I don't know what my future plan of action is because I didn't do enough discovery Ultimately, I'm saving money in the long run and it may be a harder story to tell But with the rights synopsis with the right sense of the discovery in itself. Sometimes it's easier to justify Plus I could just go out with my laptop and a pen and a notebook and do a one-day research It doesn't have to be extensive or four weeks or whatever the budget doesn't allow but as part of the job itself if I say that I cannot actually design without Knowing what the users want and I go ahead and go do a one-day research. I haven't yet come across a Business owner or a decision-maker who's not okay with spending X dollars that's one day worth of effort into finding something that's really positive and impactful So we end up getting sometimes more money just because we did that one day or a two-day investment on on that research and then with this With this I actually want to leave one blue sky idea and I call it blue sky because not seen a lot of people do it yet but When I said that we do a project we get in and we get out So how do we stay invested? How do we know if we have actually achieved any of the business goals? so I want to leave you with this thought that when we put together a project plan or a timeline and the last activity on the timeline is go live or 60 days of post deployment support Let that not be the last activity. Let's put in just five more hours or I don't know Five more line items that says that we'll have these five checkpoints Whatever is the relevant frequency three months six months one year whenever but we will come back and revisit those business goals And talk to the business and evaluate where we stand today Not only does that mean make your client feel that you are invested and you've not just sold them Random ideas, but you actually believe in what you've created It also lets you it also lets you stay engaged with that customer for a long-term relationship So it's a win-win for both sides and ultimately I get to go back to my marketing head and tell him that you know These are the business goals that I help them achieve so with this I want to thank you all for Coming and I'll take questions now. Oh, no, but I can look at the Q&A The only question I have is will the slides be available somewhere? I was actually trying to upload the slides before the Presentation thinking that the website would allow me to do that, but I don't see an edit option So what I'm going to do is I will tweet a link to download the slides and I'm just gonna bring up my Twitter handle again So, you know when I tweet it out. I've got a question about the design process Oh, I'm here Do you ask your designers to actually work with existing content because when you revamp a new website You usually have content on the website So telling designers know they cannot write in Loro Ipsum They have to use the longest headline they can find for example and actually existing images from the website Because quite often I find that somebody has designed nice landscape portraits But actually half of the pictures are title of publications and their portray and then it breaks Right. If there is an existing website I definitely ask my team to go ahead and start with that But because we are doing a content audit along with a design audit Even if it's not part of the scope It can be a very time constrained small audit where we ask these kind of questions Are the is the imagery going to remain the same or are you planning on changing it? And if so then What is are there any reference images that I can look at which you know I can use for my design and the same goes for content some of time some of the times my Strategic side tells me that you cannot have such a long headline. So that's about educating the client, but sometimes There is no way to explain that title without giving these many words So that's where we we've evaluated and decided that we want to continue keeping that long headline of content Hello, how you Take into account the system on which you base the the site you are Defining during this phase You mean though, whether it's on Drupal or some other technology stack So very recently you started doing a project where it's based on cascade CMS for example And I'm not even a part of the like as in development is not even in part of the scope for me It's content strategy design and revamp So what we are doing now is Having kind of a handover or a so it's a university That has cascade in house and has been doing cascade for forever and they're not keen on changing it Especially because it's a department of the university. So the mains brand is not changing from cascade So they don't want to change it either So now that we've accepted the decision that they want to stay on cascade, which is great We also know that cascade may have some limitations that maybe Drupal doesn't so now The design team as well as my technical architect who's not officially a part of the project needs to know What their current cascade implementation is and what kind of limitations cascade has So we've arranged for a technical walk-through session where the team they in house University technical team that built the website and is going to update the new cascade template will give us a walk-through explain it to us How they've been doing it and then our technical architect will go in and Evaluate it a little bit further and find the right findings for the design team Basically laid out in a language that the design team can understand so that when they design something They don't find out six months from now that oh, we could not update it. You had a question Is do you have any suggestions for who to? Target when you're asking who should actually be here and at the stakeholder. I mean you as stakeholders I mean you had a list of amazing people to participate with but sometimes it's quite hard to find Who actually really needs to be here who understands the content and specially dodging past the marketing team. Yeah, so It always starts with the point of contact and to be honest It's always the marketing team for me somehow or the other if not marketing We call it communications but marketing or communications whoever owns the website and they give us a list of stakeholders and they also Say things like we wouldn't want too many people on it Because it's there's conflict. There's argument So what we tell them is give us an entire list of anybody and everybody who? Interacts influences the website or the design or the content in any way that you have on staff in team or the users that you know of and Then if and where you sense that there could be arguments or conflicts if we put them together in a group and do a workshop We can reevaluate the discovery plan in fact we sometimes do Workshops where we distribute the teams on a little bit diverse where we have different kinds of stakeholders in one workshop It's the same workshop. It's just divided into different sessions because I have more users and then To avoid the conflict I keep the people in different teams But I want both the teams to know what the other team is thinking So when we do the synthesis presentation, we actually bring out a kind of a voting system where everybody gets to vote on different opinions that are grouped in themes and We don't put out names of who this who gave out this opinion or who said what it's just a card layout And all you're doing is putting a thumbs up So the common themes get voted more and whatever people find it relatable. They vote more for it So even if two different people who had two completely different opinions They could not otherwise be in the same room when they see that a certain idea is good for the business And other people are thinking the same they kind of resonate with the thought and they weigh in It's just it's always hit and trial to be honest So if it works it works if it doesn't work we find a new way to do it And it again depends on the business that we're trying to get involved with Sometimes it's very difficult to get the target customers for example in a workshop And so we invest a little bit of time and find out who could it be or who can we reach out in? incentivizing it also helps sometimes giving away a $20 gift coupon to participate and fill a survey often works so yeah, I Can just talk to you