 Let's go ahead and get started. Anything to the agenda? Anything, any modifications? I'm just peeking right now. Good on the new business stuff. That looks good, Sandro. Thanks for calling that out. How do we want to phrase, Jamie, the conversation about moving the location of docs.okd.io, the actual content to an alternative location? Is that in the issues repo now as an individual issue? Well, there's an issue open for you to check with legal and whomever else at Red Hat to make sure we're not violating anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, if you could put that in the issues section and when Michael comes because there's a little bit more to it than that. I just want to make sure it doesn't impact. Our access to the documentation teams resources for building that that it doesn't break their build chain or whatever. To. Hello. Hey, Michael. Let's let's drive on. Alright, let's bicycle on. So, let's see. Let me put in. I'll put it in current projects. The. Put repo transition. And the issue there. Alright, welcome to the documentation. Okay D documentation subgroup meeting for November 30 of 2021. Please make sure you put your name in the attendance section so we know who was here and in case anyone that needs to get information wasn't here. We know to get it to them in terms of the agenda. There's no updates on in terms of current projects on the agenda. There's no update to the charter update and placements sort of been plucking away at it and. Haven't really had time to complete that yet. Name and scope of the install and read me we talked a little bit about that in the main group meeting. And I think that some of that sort of hinges on what comes out of the repo transition. And creating a build doc hasn't happened yet. Vadim has been out for the main meetings and otherwise predisposed the past couple weeks. So once he frees up some time. Then we can run by run some of the ideas that we have by him and then move forward. Code of conduct Michael any updates on changing any references in the code of conduct to make it appropriate for O. K. D. Oh, no. Okay. And survey, I don't know if is treaty. I don't see treaty. And I would like to. I'd like to also have Jamie and I have access to the username password for the Twitter so that we can announce the releases. So, because treaty is on. I think Bangalore time or someplace there. So there's and I started the process, but I didn't get it all the way through with her to share that. My ask of treaty, if you're watching this afterwards is to share if we can figure out a way to share the username password for the O. K. D repo. With both Jamie and myself, then like when Vadim pushes out the 4.9 release, I'd like that to go out on Twitter. The Twitter handle there and I realized that I didn't have it. All right. But there was discussion on the survey at the main meeting folks are pretty much happy with it sounds like the question list is pretty much solidified at this point. So she's going to go back and rework all of that stuff and get back to us when it is solidified repo transition go ahead Diane take it away if you have any news. All right. Well, the legal has been eating Turkey last week too. So I didn't get anything out of legal yet, but I asked was going to ask Michael. Burke, because one of the conversations we had at the last working group meeting was about transitioning the location of the content for docs. Okay. Not changing the URL or anything like that. But if we move where that content is into a new repo, whether it's OpenShift.cs slash. If that has an impact on the build process for documentation, I don't want to mess up our relationship to the docs team because we like having our docs auto generated off of the upstream content. But I wanted to make sure that our request to move the repo for OKD content, not OKD code, but the content, whether it's guides or website or documentation would impact how you build the docs for us. Inexpertly entering here, I would say yes. Yeah. Michael, how does that process work right now? So is it just going to ask that? Yeah. Yeah. So, so the, is it the files are generated and then committed to the docs repo from from another location or they're written directly to the docs repo. How does that work? I'm not sure what you're asking. So when the, when you generate the OKD docs off of the OpenShift docs. Okay. Is that a one right process like you're doing it directly into the repo where it ends up? Or are there more? No. More steps. There are more pieces involved. Okay. Okay. So the build process in and within GitHub, I believe. And when they get transformed, is that we apply a series of diffs or there's just word substitutions or? I mean, it's diffs. Okay. So can I just ask, are we actually planning on transitioning the docs? Because at the minute that's actually managed by a different process and it's served from a different repository. It's served from a different mechanism that the OKD.io. We just have a link to the docs. It has its own identity outside of OKD.io. It's a separate web serving process. It's a separate documentation creation process. I expected that that just was going to stay where it is because it's so tied with the OCP process. That's what I'm getting to the bottom of here because there was an ask to move the docs.okd.io content into the repo that we end up in. Where we move it to and I want, and that set off a few alarms in the back of my head about process and builds and things like that. So that's why I asked Michael to come. This could be ignorance of my part when you talk about the moving the content. Is that the end product? The HTML pages or the source. Well, that's an interesting question. So those. Let me ask you this. The new stuff that's the new there's the new document format right that just came out. That you're using. Is that rendered to HTML or is it in like is it rendered to a middle product and then rendered to HTML. Or is it is it something that's rendered to HTML. In in 1 step. I guess is this is sort of asking the same question, but I feel like. I don't know that Diane, I don't know that anyone, I think we can sort of cut this off with the chase because I don't know that anyone really wants to. It was the docs. Okay, well, that's what I thought I heard on the meeting last time. So I wanted to clarify that. I don't I don't think any I think because they are 2 separate systems and I think it would be. There was a part 2 to the request that I heard at the last meeting and forgive me if I paraphrase this wrong correct me if I do. Another part of the ask was, can we add into the docs.okd.io links back to the guides that are in our there. So you have your regular menu system for docs.okd.io, which is goes to all the sections in the actual docs.okd.io and then at the maybe in that menu system add a link back to some of the guides that we're building in the make doc stuff that Brian's built out. Yeah, I got the same impression. I think it was Christian when he was talking. He was sort of saying that we should put the guide within the docs. Yeah, that was Christian was getting out. So in other words, Michael, it would be the the stuff that we create. Would it be possible to create as you called them before books. I don't know what they're called in the new language of the new system, but create links to our external stuff within the generated docs. Well, I know we could create a new book that contains all those links and put that book in the in the TOC on the left side. I don't think we can. I'm not sure if we can link directly from the TOC and left side to the other. Right. Okay. Yeah, that might be sufficient. Yeah, so I wanted to I was trying to do this in two parts is like one clear the air that we can't really move the docs. We have to keep that doc structure there. But the other one was to embed somehow link back out to the okay. D dot IO sites guides from the docs dot okay D dot IO. And if you can create a sample book in that where we put those things. How do we maintain that book? Is that something we're going to have to ask of you every time we want to change a link or anything like that? Is there a way. No, you can just generate a PR. Okay. All right, cool. Because I think that's that's what I was trying to tease out here in this conversation was the better way to go than try and ask them to break their build process or whatever. So, so what would be involved in in in creating a book of external links. So, we just give you a list of external links. Okay. Okay, we'll file a PR. Okay. Yeah, PR an issue or something. Okay. And that's a PR against the open shift slash open shift docs repo. Yeah, make sure you tag it, or at least in the title put okay D specific or something. I like that Michael actually wrote up a little document about how to do that. But I think we have linked. Do we have that linked now, Brian in the website. How you raise a an issue or a PR against the docs. The official box. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, in the actual site. Okay, the IO. I actually call okay D. IO community documentation and the docs product documentation. So, but that's a terminology that's that's used within that site. Let's let's use that because I feel like some of the time is spent sort of trying to decipher what we're talking about. So product documentation, community documentation. Let's move that using forward to make things as as clear as possible as to which documentation we're talking. Okay. So, task for us is for the for this group, maybe at our next meeting, which won't be until next year to come up with a list of links. We will file a PR or an issue with the docs repo those and then Michael can then get those incorporated into the OKD documentation as a book is that actually the correct terminology still with the I think so. Okay. Let us know if you leave that's what we call it. Okay. Cool. All right. So now moving on to the survey repo transition. Are there any issues in the repo or Well, it looks like I kind of broke this up, but I don't see any issues with the docs that came in. Oh, actually, there is low contrast for text and background. Sandra, do you want to talk about that a little bit about what you put in? Yeah, I'm not sure if it's just my monitor, but the contrast between the text and the background, it's really, really narrow. I run a tool for testing for accessibility, the website that in return and the errors related to low contrast in several places of the website itself. So I would just suggest to increase a bit the contrast between the text and the background to make it easier for impaired people with Yeah, I think that's great. Now did this did you try it with both theme settings because there's that little switch at the top. Yeah, I tried it with the dark mode and with the light mode and they have low contrast in different places. I see. Okay. Depends on where you're looking at. Brian, is this something that you'd have time to look at the next couple months you think. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's easy to change colors. I'm not a web designer. So I put the caveat there that I'm happy that if anybody wants to come up with code themes font sizes. I can add them in very easily but I'm somebody with more of a UX and experience should probably do that. Brandon Johnson who's the contractor I have on on demand to take a look at it and give a few maybe examples in the draft over the holidays and then we could come back and look at it. It's a good thing. People with disabilities or visual impairments often say the same thing so it would not be a bad thing to do. There might even be a resource inside of red hat that Michael I don't know if you know of anybody yet but I could ask who does that sort of thing to make sure our sites are readable. Yeah, that would be very useful. Yes. I'm happy to implement anything that they can suggest. And but I just don't have the tools and the skills to do that side of the UX design. Yeah, well and I meant more along the lines of so if you find someone or we find someone you can just direct them what to do sort of. Yeah. So what I'd like to do ideally is Brian, have you sort of take point on website stuff, not necessarily doing the work, but in terms of getting people to the place where they can do the work, like and helping us find volunteers and stuff like that. So consider yourself a web manager. Does that sound. Yep, that's fine. And the, I think the other thing that we've, we put on to this meeting was the security. And I'm writing up something to press to post. I haven't finished it yet. I obviously turkey day, or day of giving thanks as it is more for me. I took a big chunk out of my time, but I plan on having that done before the end of the year, but we will have something up to address the security stuff. There's, I've got a template and then hopefully we can find someone that can like fill in the template and our ideas to put out a call for volunteers to help be our like security person to check off the box is basically from the template. Okay, and then the last one we, we deferred the decision on inclusive language, because Diane wasn't here last time just to run that by you. So everything that we've, we've done everything we can for inclusive language, but there are still quite a few uses of the word master. We really relate to the product because we control the control plane nodes, the master nodes. So there's usage like that that still flag up in the, in the tool, but we can't really do anything unless OCP decides to rename the control plane nodes to something other than master nodes. So we think we've done everything that we can from our documentation point of view, but it was just that there are still things reported in the tool, and but we can't really do anything about it. The other area was external gate repose that we linked to still have the default branch called master branch but again, they're out of our control, or their other repose like and Vadim's and install repo. I think the okay D repo the open ship slash okay D repo is still master and put from a documentation point of view where we're sort of clean in terms of things that we control. So are we happy with that or do you want to take the other action was the decision we put on whenever happy with that. But I think that is you've pointed out it is on the product side of the house. And I know there is an initiative to change that I don't know Michael if you're aware of that at all. But I think it takes a little bit of time and probably more time than we'd like. So I will see if I can get an answer from the engineering team on when that what that timeline is and bring it back to the group. Yeah. Yeah, do we have a dedicated list like of these things that we could like just point someone from red hat to the list and say, Hey, just so you know, there's these things. Yeah, so if you go into if you actually go into that. So two or three, if you go into that issue. And you'll see that the scan returns 66 cases. And I've highlighted all the places where. And, yeah. So I mean, I think we could put something in our main meeting, because I mean if you look through if those repose are okay D repose or community repose. And so. They are probably things that we can influence or 2 of them are. And obviously we've got the library. We've got the OCP. And then we've got our installer. So. So, why don't we do this? Why don't we just file issues on them? Well. Yeah, is that our problem? Well, it's no, no, no, but on the respective repose though, if you file. What I'm saying is that like, okay, so we're we're cleaning up all the okay D stuff. Correct. Yep. And I think that's done. And it really is a never ending thing like the wild fly project. Has, you know, master branch, etc. I think that's a red hat thing. You know, every single. Docs. Okay. Dio doc. For every version. And there's, you know, 10 of me and so on so on. So, like, you know, I would say push it to those people and let them clean up their things. Yeah, that's because we can't we don't have any control. But I think, I think opening an issue with those respective repose does that. Right. Yeah. If you open one with Vadim saying, hey, do change this. He's going to change it. Likewise, if we open one up with the open shift repo or the okay D repo Christian or someone can bring it up, push it upstream and try to get it. Oh yeah. No, I'm just saying that that all these people have have independent red hat direction to do that. So I don't think we need. As okay D to push them. To do that, I think that was it 3 that are in our control, like that Vadim could fix or that Christian could push forward. We could. We could put issues there and tag Christian and tag Vadim and ask them assign it to them. I'm rich bone, who is in is a red hat or who's one of who's the person who's doing the inclusive language stuff has a master plan and has been working with the engineering teams to get this worked out. I just haven't seen a timeline for when it's getting done. I would suspect that there is out there somewhere already an issue logged against the OCP product repose to fix this. But I haven't seen it and I haven't found it yet that we could add a comment on to rather than create open a new comment. So I think that might be the thing. And then I'm fine that needle in a haystack find the one for the overall product. And I'll see if I can dig that up and go fishing for that. And I know that there was an overall scheme. But that was probably six months ago when we brought this topic up the first time. I don't know what the date is on that issue, but it's it's an old one. I hadn't thought about it in a little while. So let me see if I can find rich and find out what what the prognosis is in timeline is. But we should fix what we can. And I'm right. I'm pretty sure that there's a an initiative within the engineering time to fix that it just impacts so many things. Excellent. Okay, so I'll raise the issues against the install the community and the OKD main repo, and then I'll close that issue for us. And then the last thing is not an issue, but it's a pull request. And we talked to think two meetings ago about the we do the reviews as to whether to accept full requests at this meeting. So I don't know whether we want to get into that now, or we just want to accept this. This is one of Sandro to put the content about. I had a guide for you for virtualization. And so again, I don't want to become normal business for us to review pull requests on the documentation and accept them or you want me to do that work offline. Is that a question for me? I apologize. I was. I think for all of us, I think, you know, let's look at the, let's actually bring it up. And just know what we're dealing with here. So. Yeah, it was really just to get a community ownership because I mean, I'm happy to go and accept it, but then it's my point of view of what's being accepted rather than the community's point of view on how our documentation evolves. Vadim just looked at this like four minutes ago, actually, and put in some suggestions. I would say let's do this asynchronously, as opposed to this meeting because it looks like it's actively being discussed as we speak, like literally Vadim just looked at four minutes ago. So let's do this asynchronously but let's get it done before the end of the week. Once everyone has signed off on it, then yeah, I'd say let's go ahead and incorporate it. So, okay, I'm going to push back for, do we want to have something like, are we going to sign maybe one or two assignees and let them do it just so it gets actually signed off. Who do we want from this group to be assigned to it. Well, I can be one of them. And when everyone else has approved it, I can approve it and push it because I have authority. I think that that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, I don't want to be, I don't want to be the point for everything and I'm the point for a fair amount of stuff. You know, so let's have other folks jump in. And I would say that Brian is the point on a lot of stuff as well siren Brian, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I did want to say, Brian is the point on a lot of stuff too we want to make sure that we get some more working group people so that isn't just Brian and myself and and Daniel has started to do some work too so. So can I have one move on here please. I sent the PR so I can't be reviewing my own PR. Well, I mean, you know, because moving forward, it won't always be you. So Sandra, let's go ahead and add you. That way we've got one other person to help with that and you're, Sandra, you're very good with like documentation and and prodding us to get stuff in. So I think it'll be good to have you as an approver. Thank you. And I guess you can be added officially because you're a red hatter so there's probably no, no issue with you being added as an approver to this repo. I don't know. But I don't think that should be a threshold for some of our community to be added there. This is, this is a primary reason we're looking to move. So we have control over the approvals and we're not bound by red hat process for non red hatters. If it helps having the open shit organization. If you want to add me there. Okay. We can, we can make that happen. Yeah, I'll also look at it. I was actually looking for the. To find the issue on the repository. If you look at the PRs, if you look into PRs it's under the PRs number 249. But not, not for the okay D1 right because I was there in there. It's open shift. CS is the organization. And it's okay D.io is the repository. I'll put it into the chat. So can you type in your, there you are. Nevermind. Looking for your GitHub ID. Easy. What's your get of ID Bruce. BD link. Yeah, you're not in the repo so it doesn't like you. I can't assign it to you because you're not in the repo, but if you just put a review in, I'll, if I look for that and then. Okay. Thank you. All right, very good. Anything else with that issue. All right, cool. Let's move on now to we've got a bunch of new business that basically relates to the same thing. So my recollection was that basically we were going to work on 4.9 stuff and at the beginning of the year. Actually get it posted. Because we were going to have to write that stuff out. So Sandra, we, we had a plan to do it. It's just not as quick as what we would ideally want because this is our first time actually syncing up. Well, that's not true. I think 4.4 or whatever. I think there was a big push to have things synced in terms of announcements via okay D resources and stuff like that. But since then there hasn't been. So this would be our first time actually like announcing and so the discussion at the last docs meeting I think was like, okay, we need a list of. Features and things that we can. We can forward the open shifts stuff, but also write up some okay D specific stuff. So that's where that is at for all of those. And I'm volunteering to write some stuff. And I don't know that anyone else has volunteered yet to help write some stuff for this. And I got volunteered to do the overt on somebody was volunteered. I'm looking at Daniel. Open stack. Yep. Yep. Yep. So, Dan and I, I think our planning on doing the open stack deployment stuff because we've beaten our heads into the ground on it enough times now that we, we kind of have a good grip on what you need to do for it. Yeah, so I gathered I gathered a list in the other. In the other meetings notes about just everybody who said they could they could do a thing. So the next steps are, how do I get in touch with people outside of these meetings, they don't all seem sort of black. Not so I responded to you a little bit in your in chat when you asked me basically we don't have a centralized like volunteer contact list. So it's basically the working group Google group and slack right now. And if we want to maintain a working group participant list. And then we could do that and we talked about this before it's just, I haven't had the time to set up such a thing where basically we list everyone who's actively involved with the working group and what their areas of participation are. Okay, I, yeah, I just didn't know if, if, if such a thing existed. Um, I had asked in the open shift commons. Okay D for group. Could we have an okay D guides channel made please. That seems like a reasonable place to coordinate that work. I think Diane your but you're muted. Sorry. Okay D dash guides or guidance, which would you prefer guides, I think makes sense. Okay, thank you. And the other thing I would actually say is, let's use okay D.io. I would actually, I think that that's a good idea is to actually have the discussions about the content on the repo for the content. Okay, then let's do that. That's fine. I was just looking for somewhere to organize it. Yeah, I would say that would be the best thing is to start a discussion there. And then we're using GitHub discussions, we might also want to set up. If we know who the people are doing different things. We might want to set up. I think they're called teams and get up of like representing the individual subgroups in the working group doing different things, as well as a catch all group did to hit everyone. But, but also as we make decisions documented in the D dot documentation under the subgroups. So, that's where people should go and look for what the state of a working group is what the projects are. That's what it's there for. That's why we change it to a dynamic content so people can easily make updates. Right. And ideally what would happen is that each subgroup. Their respective notes and decisions, then get presented at the main meeting as a bullet item. So basically everyone's sort of checking in each subgroup sort of checking in with where they're at. Okay, so you said on the okay D dot IO repo. The guides currently live in open shift slash okay D. So, um, I guess, no, no, no, they don't. They don't. Yeah. Who wants to who I, I will volunteer to archive those somewhere. Cool. Where should and we will archive those and remove them. And let's just get this done with. Um, yes, they are in the okay D dot IO repo. What happened is this is just before open shifts. Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's where we're moving all of that stuff to and then once we figure out whether legal will give us permission, we will put it in someplace public. And for folks that weren't at the main meeting, we did register on GitHub. Okay D dash project, I think it is. Timothy did from the F cost group for us and then added myself as and Brian and I think a handful of other people Diane. And the team as as owners on it. And I reached out to the owner of the github.com slash okay D repo that is completely empty and been dead for a long time and heard nothing back. So, I'm also, there's a process in GitHub to ask for that back. Okay. We'll see if we can initiate that I'll give them another couple of days and hit them up again and if he doesn't respond or she doesn't respond or they don't respond. We'll see if we can get GitHub to give it to us to an okay D project is fine. As well. I just like short. Yeah, I do. I try to avoid dashes with things, but it's going to hurt these days. Okay. All right. So, yeah, so let's try to direct subgroup stuff to for documentation. Okay D dot IO in CS right now. And then at the main meeting will have everybody. So Daniel at the next main meeting. If you could update us on where you're at with things and then moving on we'll do that for all of the subgroups and Sandro, etc. So eventually we'll have like four or five subgroup updates in the main meeting. Right. And so Sandra does that answer your overall you listed the individual ones but we are going to be working on this over the next couple of weeks it just didn't come together as as fast as as we hope it will in the future. In the very short loop, I would recommend to send out at least a Twitter line about the children I release. And if there is a way for a big banner in the homepage, just seeing for the nine is out. Be great. Okay, great. We can do that. All right. And moving on now. So actually everything that we have on the list does anyone have anything else they would like to bring up. Well, just to note that on the docs.okd. You know, we should update that so that we have 4.9. You know that that goes latest 4.8. And then there's, there's no doc that you pull up that says 4.9. So, so actually, I don't even know what latest is. Okay, so hold on. So, Michael, how do you get notified that. Well, I guess we don't it has the process hasn't been defined. Has anyone actually said to you hey okd 9 point or sorry 4.9. Has been released. Can you update the docs has anyone like Vadim or anyone reached out to him has an email yesterday. Right, but did he go directly to Michael or put in a PR anywhere or anything. Not that I know he just sent an email. No, I know he sends his usual email of hey, this new version is out. So I think what we need to do then is as the group when we know that it's coming. Make sure that Michael is aware and then push a button and say, yes, Michael, please do this, like update the latest. Yes, I saw that email, but I couldn't remember if that was the 1st iteration of 4.9 or. Yeah, yeah, and Diane, I think you're right in terms of defining a new release process. I think we're finding out what needs to go into it now. Right. And then we write that out. I think what we're at right now, and I'll just say it out loud is we're at a tipping point right now. We have enough people. Who really are using OKD enough voices on these calls to actually not rely solely on the team to do awareness to socialize new releases and make sure the docs get updated. So I would say that 1 of the discussions we should add maybe to the repo is, you know, what is the new release announcement process rather than. Release process because that might scare the Jesus out of the team, but announcing a new release. So we put out a blog, we do this and do that, you know. How we do that. And I think that's we'll use 4.9 to. To figure out that process of what we what we want to do because like I was saying earlier about tweeting it out, posting it in a blog. Somewhere and getting into the docs doesn't automatically happen. Someone has to remember to do it right now. So. If you could take that on. I think there's there's two sides to that. There's the main release where when when there's a main 4.8 to 4.9 4.9 to 4.10. But then I actually think that as we as the issue has been resolved, we normally have a fort nightly or a a frequent point release within the 4.x. I think we should also have a release process around there just people know that the next update has been out obviously it's less of a fanfare, but I think it still needs to be communicated. I think is and I hesitate to even say this. I think that that's actually what I was thinking in the release process for each new release. Because it's a sub release for the nightly fort nightly. I almost think there's a way to automatically kick off a Twitter. Announcement to when the release is built. That we could add into the build process. I've seen it done. I said, that pushes a message. Yeah, something. Yeah. Sorry, go, go ahead. Go ahead. No, go ahead. So there are two hooks here. One is the build process. The other is the okd clusters have an have a mechanism of checking for updates. Right. We can hook into that. I don't actually exactly know what that mechanism is. Is it is it an RSS feed or is it just they ping an API that we can get API. I'm pretty sure. So we could we could turn that into into release announcements if that makes more sense than than doing it in the pipeline. But I like doing it in the pipeline as a push operation. Yeah, we could talk chat with Vadim and Slack and somewhere and see if that's humanly possible. I've just seen it done for other. I can't even think of one off the top of the other other release processes that it just automatically pushes out to Twitter. But that's getting ahead of ourselves. I think if we just document what we want and then we can figure out how to get it make sure things get in. And they'll get missed and don't rely heavily on Vadim or whoever is in that role. Can we enable discussions on the okd.io repo? I just realized that they are not enabled. I think you have proofs to do so. If you can figure out how to do it. If not, let me know and then I'll figure out how to look after this meeting. Okay. Do we have anything else on the meeting? No. All right. We have a lot of work to do for us. Yeah. Thanks guys. Talk to you soon. Bye bye. Bye.