 Good evening. This is Guillermo Sabatier, your host and of Perspectives on Energy. I'm Director of International Services at HSI. And joining us today is Brad Schmidt, Chief Commercial Officer at Trident Industries. And they are manufacturers of composite utility poles. So Brad, welcome to the show. Thank you, Guillermo. Happy to be here. Glad you could be here. So I had the pleasure of meeting Brad at the EITD MMA. That long acronym stands for the Edison Electrical Institute Transmission Distribution Measuring Mutual Assistance Conference. Or we're both booth neighbors, right? So would you please share with us more about that and your backgrounds? Yeah, absolutely. So again, Brad Schmidt, Chief Commercial Officer at Trident Industries. I'm from and live in the Cleveland, Ohio area. My background is in chemistry and polymer science. So I spent the last nearly 11 years with the material science company and various sales roles. The last six of which I was the sales director for their composites business. And then this opportunity to join Trident presented itself last fall. I really believe in the product and what they're doing. And it seemed like, you know, the right next step for me. So, you know, made the decision to join Trident and haven't looked back and it's been a good short but good first, you know, six months or so. All right. Well, definitely it's this product definitely brings a lot of value to the industry, right? And it is, it is quite a, I mean, quite an accomplishment really to actually come up with this new innovative technology and then have the industry begin to accept it, you know, in more and more areas. So tell me more, so tell me more about this value that added value that this brings. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, right now a lot of utilities that we hear are facing issues with availability of one polls that they used to be able to source either extended lead times or just inability to get polls that that used to be readily available. So, I think it fills that gap first and foremost but beyond that then there's a lot of advantages to composite so just if we wanted to start with a little history on Trident. We were founded in 2007 installed our first polls in 2008 so we've had polls in the field now for 15 years or so. Our process, which we'll talk about in a minute is one where we have a consistent cross section so opposed to a tapered poll. So we made our uniform diameter from base to tip so we made four diameters up to 110 feet tall and you know can meet any of the antsy wood equivalent instructions. So as far as availability because that again is one of the biggest pinch points right now. I think for Trident alone I think most composite poll manufacturers are in the same boat where most actually all of our raw materials are domestically sourced. We carry a fair amount of inventory for emergency response as well as just general lead time so we operated a six week lead time which right now seems pretty attractive compared to some other material options. So our process is concerned so I mentioned earlier so we use a process called poultrusion which makes the continuous cross section polls. There it is. So, yep. Perfect. So as the name implies the whole thing is driven by a pulling system. So pulling the fibers and and multi directional fabric through resin liquid resin that that wets out the fiber. Ultimately it goes through a heated dye that cross links the resin and it comes out the other side solid and then we cut to length at the end of the line. So there's a couple ways to manufacture composites this is just one, but the other thing you mentioned the value or innovation I suppose. The other thing that I've heard has come up regarding fiberglass poles is UV stability and that's always something that you know gets questioned and I assure you we've gone through all the testing I did hear about a this is going back 10 years or so where there were some fiberglass lighting poles that had some UV issues and blooming after seven or eight years in the field, which threatened to give the industry you know somewhat of a bad name so we've been not just us but the entire composites community working really hard to overcome that and I think we've done a great job we've gone through all the UV testing past you know with no issues like I said we've got polls in the field now for 15 plus years and have had no problems there so the other thing that we bring that's a little unique or innovative I'll say to the to the market is a multi layer design. So, so here's here's just an example of our construction which which notes the UV resistant veil, just below the surface so that really helps to promote the resin rich surface which contains the UV inhibitors and ultimately protects the you know for its lifetime. As far as the multi layer design, yeah, go ahead. So, so, so tell me more about that multi directional versus unidirectional like fabric right so. So, in our process, the majority I'll say the fibers are running in the length of the pole, we still need reinforcement in the 90 degree or plus minus 45 so we introduce fabric on either side of the roving that gives you that called transverse reinforcement. Okay, the other method of manufacturing composites is a filament winding process where you're winding around a mandrel so in that case most of your fibers are in that circumferential direction as opposed to the longitudinal if you. Oh, so that that definitely adds a lot of a lot of like stress resistance right compared to for example a spawn concrete pole, or even a steel pole in that regard right where this can actually site like. I imagine it's probably a little more resilient some of these steel poles once a steel pole burns that's it. 100% I mean that that is really value. The value of composites is the ability to flex and then return to their natural. But I'm not I'm no stranger to to storm hardening and storm issues and areas of tropical climate set that you know we live in Florida so I spent 30 years working for the one of the bigger utilities here in south Florida. And I can tell you that every year was an interesting exercise and replacing wooden poles and. I mean up to a point they replace all other wooden transmission poles with concrete poles and then they had the square the square poles that eventually broke quite a bit. They have success with the with the spawn concrete but but even then those are what I was there for the last few years. Those are getting pretty hard to source at some point I mean that that's a long lead time on those concrete poles. Absolutely we're here in the same thing with steel and obviously would so. You know compare if we're going to talk that about concrete or steel I mean there are some other inherent advantages to composites first being weight. Right so much lighter weight easier to transport easier and safer to install. And then non conductive right fiberglass conduct electricity so whether it's you know the linemen safety or even avian protection. Not being conductive is a big advantage for composites. I imagine the poor body can be run inside the poor than outside because then you also run into that risk of copper theft which I'm very familiar with as well as leading with that nonsense so can you imagine you you mitigate inside right. Absolutely so so when we ship a pole it's basically ready to install we will we run the ground wire internally top cat base plate drill all the holes. That's the utilities specification so yeah. We were trying to take as much of the pain points and labor out of the utilities hands as possible right. Yeah, so so in an environment like Hawaii, I'm sure like he go for example Hawaiian Electric. I mean what's there what's the benefits to them and that particular environment right in that particular application. What you could look at for example as as to select this over any other the competing competing designs right. Sure, I obviously being an island or even at a coastal region like the southeastern US deposits have that advantage of being a nurse so they won't rust. They won't rock like would right so in that salt water air. Impervious we we've actually are wrapping up about a five year project in the US Virgin Islands where we've installed thousands of polls for their storm hardening effort and one of the reasons they went with composite is just you know for that exact reason. There you go there's some nice pictures of our polls in service. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you. Aside from that, though, again, you know the lightweight so transportation to Hawaii fairly remote can be costly. The fact that these can be transported more, you know, more easily because of the weight reduction is has a big deal. And then we we do something unique and try to where we have a multi layer poll design so we will nest one of our profiles inside another. When you do that you get a really a much more robust poll right. So we do a lot of work in self supporting or on guide applications. So I know, you know, we never want to drill more holes than are necessary so eliminating those guide wires eliminating that that extra easement or drilling and labor is a big advantage and value that I see we could bring to the island. Well, tell me more as well because it really in an island environment same as the tropical environment where I'm at, these wooden poles have that the issue would rot whenever water just begins to you know settle on top and find us way in or somehow at the base you know you have to do those annual inspections where very few years when you're looking and then down there begins to rot away. How's that compared to those particular assets. I mean, there is no rock right like these things are intended to last you know hundreds of years in in service or even when they're after service life you know they're they're not going to decompose which brings up a point right at the end of life. There we find we often find outlets for them to be repurposed thinking that if not you know there's a lot of work being done right now and wind blade recycling. The material is very similar to what a wind turbine blade would be made of and so there are some current technologies to do so and and there's a lot of research being done and in recycling these sort of materials. I'm sure that that could be a purpose for like constructing building some structures. What was one thing you cannot do with a wood pole would pull has all sorts of or you know, like really interesting chemical. No, exactly that was the other. No good stuff for me. Yeah, no leaching and no maintenance. So that's the other thing is the inspection other than visual inspection. Once these polls are installed really shouldn't have to touch them. So tell me more about a line worker right having or like, but on spurs and go up on these polls what's the approach there regarding because I'm sure that's the question most line workers are going to ask, how do I claim this poll. Right, so of course, yeah, I mean bucket truck right now, but we do have. We do have steps working and permanent steps. So again, we would drill the holes or they can be drilled in the field as well. But but we wouldn't install, you know, steps at whatever height up the pole utility would would request the biggest thing. So the polls can be installed very much like you would direct barrier would pull. The biggest difference I guess the really the primary is the type of hardware so avoiding the cleated hardware, because you want to maintain that UV resistant surface those, you know what I mean. So other than that non cleated hardware and then the, yeah, you're not going to climb a pole like you would a wood pole but if you have the steps. Yeah, it's a simple solution. Not much of a learning curve I imagine way with with with with the lineman school or line worker school. And so so that's really an obstacle or shouldn't prevent anybody from actually thinking of acquiring when they regard. I mean, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a pretty strong advocate right of composite polls, given my experience in the past when it comes to like storm hardening. And, and how resilient the composite polls are compared to these other assets. The only thing I think people will probably question would be the wildfire susceptibility whereas you know concrete pole but if you got a concrete pole that's that's that's that's got a fire around the chances are the conductors are going to have issues anyway, or or. So that's fiberglass process is going to it's going to have a problem. Well, no, not not necessarily so there are technologies out there and there are composite polls that will withstand the wildfire temperatures and so no this has been highly engineered over the years to be able to withstand those brush fires that 20. 2100 degrees for for a few minutes at least. That's actually another advantage of composite. Definitely good advantage and for me, one of the things I've also seen right with salt water intrusion from the from the base up is that you end up seeing some of those like rebar just begin to like corrode and then burst. You know, slowly correct the actual pole along its length and then crack it and then collapses at some point I've seen that happen. So that's something that you're not going to deal with here either so. No, exactly there's no water. We've done all that there's actually some moisture some standard moisture test moisture or water absorption and it's. I mean fractions of a percent that that's not a concern. So, so, so definitely we have some really really significant advantages right over over these materials. I mean also from an environmental standpoint right you're not cutting down trees you're not having to grow entire forest so then cut them down and really that growing those trees takes six years, sometimes decades. So, so in this case, you know, using all this land to grow these trees when in reality, you can use that number or something else. So this manufacturing you can probably turn out more or more of these composite poles. In the time it takes to grow one of these like this lumber, you know, yeah. No, we joke we grow trees at a foot a minute right so much faster than mother nature and to your point then you're not having to cut down trees and replant. So, no, it's certainly another advantage and especially given the availability issues right now that we're talking about. Yeah, the supply chain issues I think some some of them were saying they're almost up to a year to get like a certain inventory of poles we start in some cases. So it's definitely a challenge right for some of these utilities. One of the things we're also so one of the concerns that I was asked I was at a I was at a delivering training at a co-op up in Tennessee somewhere, and they asked the whole situation well what's it like with a vehicle impact what's it like with ice loading right and that sort of things. That's usually their concerns the ice loading and the vehicle impact. We'll start with the ice loading because that's an easy one. I mean, we size our poles based on certain ice loads and wind criteria right and so long as we're accounting for that up front. I mean we've yet to in all honesty with our multi layer design we've yet to be be given an application and call it sub transmission or distribution that we haven't been able to meet the loading requirements we've even done some steel lattice tower placement projects with with some of our multi layer poles. The other thing on the vehicle impact so while we haven't done actual crash testing. We've seen plenty of polls be impacted and actually the Society of Civil Engineers has a whole FRP poll standard or guideline, and they did comment on the vehicle impact specifically so essentially it's it's safer I'll just you know start there so for a few reasons number one they're hollow so they can they're able to absorb energy more than a solid would pull for example and fiberglass or composites just by nature can absorb a fair amount of energy. Secondly, if if they are impacted and sheer they typically do so fairly clean, if you will, and we've even seen instances where because they're relatively lightweight. The conductor is actually holding the pole, still in place rather than coming down on a car. And then the last thing I think is the fact again that they're non conductive. If you did have a live wire situation. The poles not going to at least you know be that and that's definitely a once again and added plus right because there's some regions where you have a lot of some of these poles are though. They're within the foot of the ending of that of that pavement except I've seen that right now far away from the road so I mean it's not always a case is not usually the standard. It's usually quite you know, at least 56 a feet away from the, from the outside edge of that of that road but still, you know, there are times where they get awfully close was definitely good to know. And so, so, so advantages again salt they're right those difficult environments closer to the ocean, of course as a lot of advantages over overwood and definitely over steam right or even like rebar reinforced concrete. And again the severe weather right so the storm hardening this definitely has so many more advantages over those other three types of assets. So, so, so here's where we'll get to the question whether we're always going to wonder right it's it's how does this compare cost wise and to the other assets. It took you 15 minutes to get there so it's that's better than most meetings I go to know. So, obviously that is the, you know, our biggest challenge is the upfront costs so as a general rule of thumb obvious depending on on height and class, we are called it two to three x the upfront cost of wood. Now, when you so you really got to look at composites over the service life. If you if you anticipate a typical wood pole to last 40 to 50 years, you know, we, we anticipate our composite poles to last 80 to 100, and we weren't everything for, for at least 40. So, when you consider having to purchase well, remove an old pole install a new and purchase a new wood pole in the same time that you would have, you know, one composite pole that alone makes up for the difference typically but then. I mentioned that you know I mentioned earlier the lighter weight, we find often you can use lighter duty equipment to install the polls than you would otherwise the transportation cost especially you know putting it on a boat to Hawaii, you can fit more poles in a container. So, one of these things when when you consider the the overall life cycle cost of a pole are actually more attractive than most, you know, the other material option. We also got to remember right now there's even an additional group of savings that we didn't talk about it's the personnel hours. Now you're going to have to replace that pole as personnel hours right that gets involved in that so now you got to go in there to get a clearance you're either going to have to like work it hot which is usually what they do. So now you're running that risk of having having a flash, you know, hopefully you won't but then also the risk of creating an outage for the customers. Then so so so add all these personal hours for that project right that's an additional cost that that we're not even talking about yet because you know when it comes to replacing that. And the and the the pole inspections of course are not going to happen as frequently I imagine because of the fact that there there's a lot longer interval here. And then the other thing I can imagine as well is that the type of equipment like you were saying that you're using is not as expensive. So so you can probably offset a lot of this cost because now you're not you're not investing in this this more heavier class of equipment to operate with you know whether it's a Derek or these other cranes or something that's why she like install these poles. And the environment. Yeah. I mean, the only other not only other but just thinking about the storm hardening right I mean, on a normal scenario if you expect your wood to last 40 or 50 years, but here comes a hurricane or whatever right now that pole that you installed five years to replace so just and I think that the utility industry is really coming around and thinking about things differently. We can't do it the same way we've always done it and go back and replacing the same assets every 1020 years even so everything that you mentioned but then there's that that hidden cost of what happens when the power goes out because we lost you know a number of distribution. Right. And that's, and that's the other big cost or their safety or may fear safety minutes they were talking about, which is the amount of time for example that a customer is out that ultimately is translated into into. There's dollars behind that right where it's not really party not selling but rather there's there's a whole other index right a customer satisfaction that is involved in that. And then of course there's some environments to where I imagine these polls are probably easier to transport with with with aircraft, whether it's a road, you can airlift them a little bit easier right then a concrete pole or steel pole. No, I mean we've had instances where rather than having to build a service road out to a remote remote location. You know, rent a helicopter for a day or whatever and just just drop the polls and so especially in mountainous regions and I have been to Hawaii. Yeah, yeah, so I was there. It's probably been 10 years now but beautiful obviously beautiful place to visit and to live. So, make the infrastructure is beautiful right I mean these polls are, I'm biased but I think they're, they're pretty good looking and we've actually have customers who will only put composite polls and like their, you know, main street because of the aesthetics so. But well there, there's believe it or not there's cases where I heard of a few lawsuits where a customer got splinters on their hand, because they because they they grabbed or held on to one of the wooden poles on the sidewalk, which I guess had been have plenty of like splinters taken out because splinters going up and down. And they I'm not sure who you know which end of the web but they they they got splinters in their hand they were able to get a pretty good loss about it because some some infection and injury they had but so just that that that that's another possibility that that comes to mind I'm reminded of that incident right where this and one of the reasons they change those polls out and they put a concrete poles on there was that was one of the contributing factors you know to justify the concrete pole besides storm hardening. It was the the the litigious nature of that customer base in that area. Well, and that's a challenge though that we face to go back to the UV comments earlier right wouldn't be splinters but you know people have this conception that when fiberglass ages, it will bloom the glass blooms to the surface and that's what we are working and have prevented with our UV. You know the surface veil I mentioned and then the inhibitors in the resin systems, but there's still this this notion that that will be the case. Yeah, so that that's our challenge to overcome but again we've done all the testing and have had no issues regarding you know dry fiber, as it's referred to. Right fine. So, so, so the cost you know is is is might be a little more than I mean a bit more than would a little more than steel right it's it's and it is a lesson concrete or or. Concrete it really from my experience limited I've been here six months but it kind of depends more on where you're located if you're close to a concrete boundary and the transportation costs is minimal. Then we're certainly more expensive but if you have to transport concrete a long distance you know that it's heavy right so right so so it varies, but but even steal yeah the upfront cost is going to be a little more but the lack of maintenance you know and then inspection over the years again. We find we typically come out ahead. Well, that's definitely some great applications and and and so so so let's circle back to the idea of of. Going back to like how this could be an advantage for like Hawaii for example right now or country like he called when what would like really motivated to want to look at this in this in this environment. Yeah, I mean I certainly storm hardening and with ours at least in particular the the unguided or self supporting applications to eliminate the need for easements and drilling extra holes and we do a lot of work and in eliminating. Guiding issues or concerns. And then obviously composites, the fact that they're not going to rust they're not going to rot they're safer for wildlife no. No woodpecker issues no insects shoes so all of that and then lastly I think you know, comparing to steal or reinforce concrete with with steel rebar. So just the long term aesthetics to that I mentioned and you know, complimenting the beauty of Hawaii I think. Well, one of the things I mean, even a floor that we we've had issues with bobcats climbing these poles and they just sitting on top of the pole and then they got to come out and get a bucket truck and get them down and the land workers terrified because what's that cat going to do once you bring it in the bucket. Yeah, that's something also it's the the animals unable to close way up their eating as well so it's ready. City little details that that they're really but you get them all together and they point in a certain direction right so. So, as far as HSI we can do I imagine we could help for example with just helping with the initial training or or even getting these line workers qualified electrical workers. So we have a program that really has a lot of embedded training regarding line workers, qualifying electrical worker or even anything distribution so so I'm sure this is something that will be easily incorporated into like a training program like ours and just minimize that learning curve right so for these like. Yeah, we'd love to partner with HSI and developing some sort of whether it's online training or even in person we do a lot of in person training, prior to a pilot installation with a utility. We find that you know there's a little apprehension at first but really the similarities to installing a, you know, traditional wood pole or really, you know, people get over that learning curve pretty quickly. Okay. Alright, so I think we're at the end of our show. Wow, we've really used up to 30 minutes pretty fast. So is there anything else you think you want to add or go ahead and wrap it up in this case. Yeah, I really appreciate you having me on I think it was a great discussion hopefully some folks took took something away from it and great composites continue to gain market acceptance they sure do they sure do and once again Brad thank you so much for appearing the show. I'm really great to have you here and have you introduce you to our things like Hawaii community and viewers and hopefully you know expose you to the rest of the industry in this part of the world. Mainly he go and then all the other like tropical island type of utilities and munis and call so you know will definitely benefit from from from your products and services. Well, thank you very much for appearing I look forward to seeing you again in the show pretty soon and. And so, for all the viewers, I mean, Brad's contact info is has been pasted on the out throughout the show and also you see it in the show description as well so thank you all for joining. Thank you for that. And have a wonderful afternoon and evening everybody. Thank you, Brad. Okay, thank you. Take care. Check out our website think tech Hawaii.com. Mahalo.