 Welcome to the Monday August the 5th meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let staff and members introduce themselves. I'm Audra Brown, staff. Stephen Everett. Hannah Smith. Benjamin Cheney. For anybody who's not been here before, we are an advisory committee to the Development Review Board. We will listen to each of the applications and move them forward. And do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. Second. All in favor, raise your hand. Agenda is approved. And unless anybody has anything else to add, before we get started with the applications, we can go to the first application for 5th Cliff Street. Mary Hendy's regarding your fence, to describe your application. Yes. By the way, you're doing a nice job on that property. Yeah, thank you. It's looking good. Thanks. This is a fence, just around the parking area. So the building is enrolled in a program for the Vermont Housing Conservation Board. So one of the things we've been doing is just assessing some safety issues. So as part of the safety assessment, it was determined that it would be helpful for the safety of the insurance company to have a simple, raw-to-iron fence on pre-sides of the parking. Space is just one parking space up there across from Frank's Place. So the pictures kind of show the parking space with a vehicle, without a vehicle. And then one shot of the photograph shows just the house as you're walking up the cliff. That's from street level. So that view won't change. So Springfield Fence Company is getting contracted to install it. It's just a one-day job. It's just a black, raw-to-iron fence, three-rail style, flush bottom, four feet on the exit. There's just concrete parking curves around the fence, around the parking spot right now. The red line is where the fence will be. Yeah. Yeah, to prevent people from going off the cliff. Right now, any kid could walk up there and die. Are there steps here that go down to the lower level? Yeah. I thought so. Yeah, that's where the ground floor apartment is. Yeah, nothing will be done to that point. There does need to be a baluster on that side, but I haven't done that yet. How many steps down is it? It's like three. It's like two and a half, three. Three plus the landing? Yeah, probably. The only reason I ask is that when the fence company comes and they do this three-sided, there'll be a post here on the corner. And you could add a bracket down below and have them add a single rail going down. Yeah, I know. Which probably wouldn't be that much more expensive. Yeah, I know. That is a good idea. I know. I did talk to Middlebury Fence Company too, actually, and they did offer to put that in, but they just haven't, they just have not called back. They just haven't been able to actually handle the job. And they weren't able to provide the architectural details that you guys asked for. So Springfield was the only place that was able to provide the actual where, I think Middlebury was just going to give me something in stock. Yeah. But I wanted to at least be sure what the product was going to be. So, yeah, Springfield is going to come up on site this week, so I can ask them about that. Ask them, again, all it means is attaching a bracket to the top post. Not the top post. Of the existence of the fence they're going to put in. Yeah. Attaching a bracket there and then one down below to whatever that is concrete or wood material. Concrete. And then they can attach a bracket down below and then with a single rail, that's all you need. I know. That is exactly all I need. Honestly, I fall down those steps. I hate it. Well, it's especially nice in the winter to have a third point of content. It is. It definitely is. Yep. I thought it was an option. I mean, sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah. If you want to, if it's not too much of a deal. No, that's not a big deal at all. So that's not it. There's only one vehicle that is allowed to park there. There's only one tenant, so it only goes with one apartment. The other tenants aren't allowed to park up there. You can't squeeze two vehicles in there. The retaining wall is different elevations, like around the forest to the side. Is there? There's a step down on the third rail. Yeah. So that rail turns and steps. Yeah, a little bit on that third side. Yeah. They'll have to. Do something. Yeah. Yeah. It may just be that that's a little shorter. It may just be that it's like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. They'll see the job. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to cut the trees back up there a little bit to access. I'd just say that a handrail could be headed to the proposed fence structure. Right. And the concrete retaining wall adjacent to the steps alongside the building to provide a safer access to the steps. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, thank you. It doesn't mean you have to do it yourself. Yeah. No, it's great. Yeah. That's excellent. Thank you. Is there any lighting in the corner there? By the steps? There's only lighting at the very front of the building. The front of the building has lights underneath the overhang. Would you ever consider adding? And again, you're not required to by me. I'm just thinking, while you have an application here for this area, if you wanted to add a, you know, like a motion detector light, if somebody is parked and they're going down the steps for any reason. Yeah, it's a good idea. The light would just come on. Yeah, sure. It's a good idea. Just so you can come back. Yeah, no, if you want to add that to, yeah, lighting is always helpful for sure. Yeah, I appreciate it. Five. This one is the ground floor. And then there's four, two on each side and a face. And again, it's added as an option. It just gives you two years. Great. If you wanted to add something if you wanted, but a motion detector light that shines on the stairs, it just sort of a downlight sweeps the entry to the stairs and the stairs. It's just really handy if it's dark at 3.30 in December. Definitely, which it is. Any questions, comments about the fencing, railing, lighting? Okay. Do you have any other questions? Okay. I'll read down through the criteria. Number one, preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district or involves an historic structure, acceptable. Harmony of exterior design, whether the properties in the district, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials, whether the properties in the district acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping, non-proposed in this application. Prevention of use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, acceptable. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas, including gateway views of the city and state house, probably not applicable at this location. All in favor of the application is proposed. Raise your hand. And you can sign that above my name on the lower left here. Thank you very much. Thank you. That's a nice looking fence. No, thanks. Thanks. Thank you. Good night. The next application is for a three-picton court, Blueberry Associates, Claudia Pringles. And describe your signs for us. Let's just sign for my office space. Law Office of Claudia Pringles. PLLC is state planning. The one will be the same as the Paris law. And on the other side will be equivalent to the ones that are already there as well. Is the sign out of wood or sign foam or do you know? I think it's going to be wood, but I don't think it's raised. If it is wood, you may think or have asked John about some kind of banding around the perimeter to protect the edges, because the weather between the sun, afternoon sun, and rain and snow, if it's wood, sometimes, I mean, unless you're going to climb up there and coat it every year, sometimes the edges start to come apart. Yeah, I know there's going to be a side to it. I'm not sure what that material would be. I mean, it looks like there's something here, but it looks like if you band it with something, then you give it a little more water resistance if it is wood. Again, that doesn't change the lettering or design or anything. It's just protection, so you don't have to keep maintaining it a couple of years. How about questions about the sign? Looks good. Looks nice. Okay. Thank you. Okay. That's it. I'm going to run through the criteria for design review standards for signs, preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style, acceptable, harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district, acceptable, compatibility of proposed exterior materials, acceptable, wood or sign foam, which is what he usually uses one or the other, compatibility of proposed landscaping, non-proposed in this application, prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color, schemes or exterior materials, acceptable, location and appearance of all utilities, no lighting for the sign. There's a light that's already there. It's already there, so no changes in that. No. Okay. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house, acceptable in this location, conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations, acceptable. Compatibility of the subject property and adjacent properties, acceptable, shall not obscure significant architectural details, acceptable. Consistency and uniformity of multiple signs in CB2 and OP districts, but this is not either district. Illumination, no change, not applicable here. It's not internally lit. Penance and banner is not applicable. Individual letters of fixed painted or engraved directly on the building or structure are encouraged. This sign is acceptable at this location with the other similar signs. All in favor of the application, raise your hand. And you can sign that one just above my name on the left side there. Okay. You have a pen? Yeah. Okay, thanks. Attorney, I should read the form. I'm sorry? I'm just going to have to fix that one. Oh. I'm just reading it. Yeah. Okay. I'll sign. That's it. Good luck. All right. Thank you. The next application is for 29 College Street. Okay. Shoemaker? There are things you brought into me today. Okay. And describe your application. For terms of this meeting, I think what we're talking about is just one exterior door that we'd like to add. Okay. And it's drawn in. The plan is on the porch. And I think there's lots of photographs of, there's some photographs of the existing front door that we'd like to mimic. It's right here. Is that the front door? That's the existing, yes. Okay. And this is the porch door? That's the storm door for the front door. Okay. So those are the types of doors that we'd like to mimic in the new location. And the new location is described in this plan. It's off the porch here. The blue? The blue porch. You can see the in-sling. Yeah. Okay. Right here? Yeah. The first part of the original application had adding a new stairway. Mm-hmm. But that's been taken out. Okay. Was the stairway an exterior stairway or? Correct. What for? Was that for like an egress? Correct. Okay. And this one will be, will this give you interior egress that you're looking for or? It'll give an interior egress from the first floor apartment to the porch, which it wouldn't have had in the past. Okay. Without it. Wouldn't have had it. Are you turning this into upstairs and downstairs apartments? Yes. Okay. Do you look at the stairs? Previous. Well, the stairs would be nice to have as an option if we really needed it. The door was a problem. We would be willing to do stairs. But the stairs were a problem because of snow removal and moving snow around that, the proposed driveway. Mm-hmm. The stairway would be kind of out in the, sort of in the way of where the snow might like to go. Mm-hmm. But we'd be better off with the door on the porch. Okay. So the upstairs has, this is ground floor egress here. The second floor has egress through the stairs. Yes. Through the other door. And then there's egress for the back of the first floor here. Yes. To the Crowley Center, yes. And is there a second means of egress from the second floor? Yes. It sits out, well, it's a scape window onto the porch. Onto the porch? Okay. No, that's fine. I was just curious. If you're ever thinking of doing stairs and there's, obviously snow is an issue for stairs, but they make a metal tread. We're familiar with that system. That works. That works very well. As I'm sure the Mr. Steele here knows. They have a very nice drawing of the staircase on this one that shows those treads. Yes. The problem with those treads is that since the embargo, the price of the steel is doubled. It's not so much the steel that costs money. The fabrication and the steel. The plan and the other materials that are in the packet, not what we just handed you, show that staircase. Just a few of the curiosities. Okay. I would like to be able to know whether or not we would be, have options, you know, options. If you would, I'm happy with the stairs, the exterior stairs. I think we would both, Ben and I would prefer to have the door on the porch instead of the exterior stairs. No, that's fine. Okay. What's there now, just a blank section of wall? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we have a photo. Yes. Yeah. No, that's... Yeah. Made sense. Okay. Made sense. No, that's, I think, matching the other doors, a nice feature. I agree. We have some... And actually, if you use an insulated door, either fiberglass, I'm not sure, or solid wood or whatever you're going to use with a double glass and a weatherstrip and nicely, you won't even need a storm door on it. Yeah, we have plans that show the type of doors so we'd like to have a couple of options for doors. Yes. No, those are nice. Yeah. Also, that's a lot of sun in the living room in the west. Putting in more glass there. Yes, more glazing area. I guess it's southwest. No, that's a nice area. That gets the area to get a lot of sun on that side of the building. The sun sort of sweeps around like this. The idea is to use nice leaded glass with beveled edge so that you have a nice door that kind of mimics the existing door. No, that'll look really nice. It's a great building. Beautiful building. It's a good... It's got good bones. It looks like it's been really well maintained for years, as long as I can remember. College did a good job, I'd say. Now, do you want to add any... Is there any lighting at the other front door? Or do you want to add any lighting at that door? Oh, that's a good point. Well, that is a good point. I think we would... I think we'd want to add a sconce maybe to the right of the door. Okay, well-mounted sconce? Yeah. Is there one at the other door? I think there's a... Is there a light ceiling? Unfortunately... I don't know if it's actually... It might be a pendant, I believe. Is there? Do you want to photograph? That one? I can't tell. It looks like track lighting. Is it really? Or maybe it's full of conduit? Oh, I think you might be right. I think, yep, I see it then. It goes back. So there's two. I think we'd prefer a sconce. Maybe like a... Oop-Brogs or a... There's a ceiling mount, a wall mount. Oh, yeah. You're right, then it is a conduit. A flush mount conduit? Yeah. I guess I'd rather not continue that motif. I see what's not right now. No, look at it. It doesn't work very nicely. I think we'd like to put a block or something. Yes. A wall. Depending where you feed it. I mean, you can go in the basement and angle up and go inside the bay and... Good idea. Feed it, or you could do a recess can overhead. I mean, you have a number of choices or whatever you prefer. Okay. So yes, the answer's yeah. We'd like to put a light there. Yeah. And you're happy with the light at the other... at the other door? Well, that light... No, look at it. Maybe we should... If we're here... Well, as long as... That was the time to say, we'd like to change it. I mean, whatever you... Whatever you feel like it, I'd like to add into this, you know, in terms of that doorway. What if we proposed two matching, like, bronze sconces and remove the exposed conduit and weatherproof box? Okay. Because I think we can access from here, from this panel, possibly, as Steve was saying, go through them. And with those wall-mounted doors, you can either have it on a motion detector or a timer or just a manual switch. I mean, that's your option, however you want to do that. But with a, you know, a wall-mounted... We've got a wall-mounts that are on just motion detecting. So if you open the door to leave, it goes on. Or if anybody approaches the front porch, it comes on to light the porch and the access to the doorway. And on this porch here, if people are using the stairs here to come up onto the porch, even if they're going around to that other doorway, with motion detector lights here and there, as soon as you come up the stairs, it'll light this section up. And then as you go around the corner, it'll light that section up to enter, unless any suggestions for anything other than that. And the other option, again, would be to do a ceiling fixture. But the ceiling fixture gives you a more limited sprint. Or at least a recessed fixture would. But you like the side-mounts. Side-mounts are nice. I guess I do. I prefer the side-mount. I'm really not opposed to the wall-mount sconce-type lighting there. I'll just give you the option. Yeah, would you please? Because now that I look at this conduit, I wonder if it'd be easier if we just removed the conduit and then just installed a nice surface mount. Yeah, I would appreciate that if you would give us the option. While you're having a lighting conversation, is the other side lit? I believe there's a ceiling, like a candid ceiling fixture. I can't remember, but I think I was confusing with two. And we wouldn't touch them. Bevel glass in this door. That's a good point. I've seen them. We might have to go to the Simpsons Camelot. It's the third tree. Bevel insulated glass is available. Just get out your wallet. But we think even still it's probably cheaper than the stairs. It's going to replace that. Yeah, that's a good point. It was more just curiosity. It would be cool. It would be cool. That's what I thought it would be. I think that's smart. So anyway, the option was, too, either a bronze or black-colored wall mat or, again, just giving you options. Light fixtures may be added to the side of the existing front door and the proposed additional front door. An alternative ceiling mat fixture of the same color family may be installed instead on each door. Anything else we should add or throw in while we're at it? Anywhere. We're lighting that. Anywhere? Okay. Is there a parking area for the building? There's two parking areas. There's one on it. There's a College Street parking area. And that's existing. There's a Kemp Street parking area which is proposed. Okay. Do you propose any lighting for either of those areas? Either that back corner on the Kemp Street parking area or is there lighting already on the back porch? There's a carport parking area in front. I didn't think that we would be getting any lighting under there. Since it wasn't there when we got it. Yeah. You know, if you think maybe adding something in the back is worth having the head nod toward. I'm okay with that. Off the record. Wouldn't it make sense to have a light here from the point you're in? Well, something. Yeah. I think this area is okay, but possibly something here. So if you look at the corner of Kemp Street and then the green screen by the maple trees, I think we would ask if an exterior or motion detector would be installed in the corner. I don't know. You could do a two-headed one. Yes. One that shines down at the corner from the parking area to this pathway. Oh, thank you. Here we go. And then another one that illuminates along the side to guide you towards that back corner. I think that's a good idea. That makes sense. It would be basically right about here. Okay. The light doesn't escape the property. Yup. I agree. When you find a fixture you just show it to us and we'll just double-check that it's the output and the downcast and whatever meets the ordinance for lighting. I mean, it makes sense to have a light. It does make sense. So, yes. Yeah, there are two. There's one here and one here. So we don't have to do anything else. Oh, there is one thing? I believe that's the ceiling fixture I was talking about. Oh, I see. Okay. From this location, I think it would illuminate this area. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm just spot-shotting. Spot down into here. Thank you. When I park here, what are you saying right here? I think you're saying is it a door up here? Yes, Ben. It's right here. Yup. And that's actually not really used. I think you'd use this door. Yeah. That's more like a storage, maybe recycling bins or something. Yeah. Yeah. It's been used for years. Yeah. But I believe there's a light in there. Oh, yeah. One more. I just didn't see that door. Oh, yep. I think this would be the basement access, the address. Yeah. Okay, so again, the motion detector light fixture, again, bronzer black color, can be added to the rear corner of the house on the Kemp Street site to illuminate the parking area and the rear wallquake. Yes. I like it. And again, with a can fixture, with a small LED flood, it'll illuminate that area just so, again, if you're coming home in the dark, you don't have to be trying to carry a flashlight with your two bags of groceries. Yeah. That's smart. Is this properly aligned? It is, actually. We were joking. We're going to put a little chair on the patio of the Crowley Center. Yeah. Seems like an error somewhere. Yeah, I can say a little odd that the meets and bouts describes that little corner, but, indeed, we're on the patio of the part of it and the Uber Avers. Very interesting. I'm surprised that either the patio was built, obviously, after the property line was established, and nobody figured that out before they built the patio. That's right. So when they have an event there, do you get a portion of the royalty? I guess that's a very good point. Sorry, I shouldn't bring that up. Do you recall a garage being there at one point? There was a garage. I seem to recall. There was some other outbuilding, and so when they subdivided, it's just an odd angle. I don't know how it worked out that way. I can't remember exactly where it was located. I think they just kind of moved the line around the carport. The carport kind of sticks out beside the building in it. I guess that was the best plan at the time. Well, if there's nothing else to add, I can run through the criteria basically for the door, and again, you have the options of the lighting. Preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style if the proposed projects in the historic district or involves an historic structure, acceptable, harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district, acceptable, compatibility of proposed exterior, materials acceptable, compatibility of proposed landscaping, non-proposed in this application, prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials acceptable, location and appearance of all utilities acceptable with the optional lighting, recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house acceptable. All in favor of the application with the options, raise your hand. And I'll let one of you sign that one above my name when we're left. The front stairs, front and rear stairs are going up, both have railings on them. I believe they do. I don't have any pictures of the front. Let's see if we can find some photographs. Yeah, I'm sure they'll bag. It's like a 42 inch standard with spindle and handrails. Okay. On the front and rear as well. Okay, and that's fine. I'm just trying to thank them anything. You're going to, between code and insurance company, you're going to get hit with. Yeah, I'm sure they'll do something, but rails are all to code. Okay, good. Thank you. You're welcome. Good luck with your project. Thank you. It's a great spot. Thank you, other. Thank you. And the next application is for 60 Main Street. 60 Main Street Associates. Applicant, Talia. Talia. Talia. And you look strangely familiar. Hi. Introduce yourselves. I'm Jacqueline Meakin from Nutty Steps. I'm Talia Stonaroff. I have a firm here in town. Stonaroff workshop architect. I'm Bill Kaplan. In this case, 60 Main Street Associates. Good. Congratulations on your new challenge. Your new challenge. Okay. Describe the application. So we're here to talk about extremely exciting new proposal to get obtained by updating sign, which is iterations, and then outdoor seating within the area allowable with the six feet clear for pedestrian access. Some minimal planters to just provide a little bit of separation boundary there. And then updating the brick most of which is already painted on the front there. So we're going to paint that a dark, almost black color. And in the application, we show examples of many, many different currently painted buildings in downtown Mount Pelier and then brick buildings only. And then also examples of black brick, which is a really historic way, I think, to treat the brick, but it also has an updated. We're proposing to wrap that paint around the alleyway. And there are a few reasons for that. One is it does get vandalized currently and it's difficult to clean off of a natural brick. And it's also been getting a lot of abuse from salt and some overspray and then possibly some sandblasting that happened in reserve removal in the past. So this is a way that could protect the brick, make it easy to keep clean and fresh updating it and help to restore it to have better weatherproofing qualities. I have to admit it's a lot easier to cover a graffiti with a can of spray paint than it is to have to go through and try to scrub it out of the brick. I think that here also on the inside the brick has exfoliated some because it's been sandblasted in the past. In addition to that there's actually no drainage in that alleyway either so the water just sits until the brick absorbs it so just keeping it from that splash zone and getting it to shed a little bit more water will help. It needs something to So just in I just need to say this in the interest of I'm participating in this project but we only have three of us here so as far as like if I recuse myself or not I don't know how we go about that. You're participating in what? You're just making the signs. If you recuse yourself and then we can't load on it I understand. And I don't have any objection I mean just looking at the sign there doesn't seem to be a lot of I don't think it's a problem but I just do want to be transparent. Publicly put that out there if there weren't just three of us I wouldn't use myself. Is this for both signs rabble rouser and regal? So I think they're still signs but ultimately yes it'll be regal and rabble rouser. And what is regal? Flour and design? No flour and fruit it's going to be chocolates, flowers. As we get closer to the design it looks like we're going to actually do something unified between the two companies. So here's an example. I can just pass this around. It'll all be open inside or is it being divided? We're trying to do one that actually spreads across the sign in a more uniform manner. Interior? No interior. It's their shared spaces. Okay so it's open it's not divided down the middle between the two. And it'll be how they're talking about 1.POS so they're to the consumer it's going to kind of all melt as one concept. Okay. Two separate owners of each business? Yes. Our cut sheets for seating and example of the planters. Can I email you the sign? The sign proposed is this one here just regal and rabble rouser. Right. And this is just like a complete reconception. Oh okay. This would be the new conception? In Lua we've even having the company names it would be those things we thought would be more clear for locals and tourists alike to just really play with our side space like what we're providing. And this the way that it's shown in the new concept they look blocked out but you'd be doing the same steel letters on the wood background. It's sort of the opposite that it would be a steel Oh with a piece and then the letters cut out. These are not from behind. Not quite. And I think that it's not finalized so. Right. I'm wondering which you and two weeks and or email the file. Have you thought of sticking with that and then putting these this lettering inside the glass so that that's at high level but yet your company names up top and that's a simple way of describing the business and then again the reason is that you can do anything inside the glass. You don't have to go through any permit process so if you where you place it if you want to change it if you want to scrape it off and put something else you can change that anytime you want inside the glass. And that can be either painted on stickered on or you can have a free floating sign that you hang with hooks anything you want to do inside it's your option to do it change it whatever and it makes your sign right. So it gives you more flexibility I was saying the same thing this morning and was feeling that exactly what you're expressing and what convinced me that this was a great way to go is that there's so many really exciting things happening in this space and how do you just make it super clear to people walking by or a tourist coming into town of what's happening in here and what can we get and so when that was described to me it felt very convincing and sort of important to make that really really clear on that sign board but I think your comments are really like a lot of sense as well. Is it possible that would it be possible to have it approved understanding that the idea is that it's made with steel and an iteration of what you're seeing here. I just think on an historic building that it's more compatible with everything else in town to have the name of who you are here and then to describe what you do on the glass below and again you've got basically what's here flowers and chocolate and then on the glass you can put either lettering describing what you're doing or pictures of what you're doing or again you can change that as you see where your business is taking and you don't want to come back here every time you change something up top right? No. Or remake the sign. Or remake the sign. But like you said Ravel Rouser will stay the same what you do inside may tweak depending on where your business takes you or where your customers encourage you to go. So in this process is it, I think is it possible to get an approval to a point and then they have to come back because I don't think that it's from what I'm hearing is the sign the lettering or the signage on the band isn't fully evolved yet that band in the back the sign backing the natural wood backing The cedar shingle Yeah that's going to be a cedar backing and then the the window and brick treatment you know get to that level and then these guys can work out their sign process. Sure we could do that or is the size of the sign and lettering within the guidelines for the size of the building. I would have to double check I think it has to be in the sign band. Okay. Yes. I think that's the basic rules in the sign band. Okay. And that is the existing sign band size that we're just updating. And what was the size of the lettering I didn't it's called out I did a square footage analysis of the lettering itself that should be on the permit I don't remember the 16 16. It just shows the height of the sign the wall sign that has the dimension of the letter and the sign area is below it says 16 square feet Oh okay. Yes it says two feet approximately and I saw this I saw it two feet here but I wasn't sure if that it just said wall sign two feet height but I wasn't sure if that was a lettering height or more band. Oh that was the lettering height. The band is much taller. I mean it seems to me that we probably should have a clearer cut sheet of what the signs are before we can make an approval to be fair at all the way out because that we left a lot of information so I do think we could move forward regarding whether about painting the building and it seems fairly solid that you want to change that sign back into that horizontal cedar board. Yes. And that seems like something that we could decide on is do you feel we have the information for that? So they have to do another whole application to come back for the sign itself? What I'm wondering is approving the sign as it was applied for and then if they do decide to change to this next idea then they come back and then if they decide not to go with the new idea they've got an approved sign. If they decide to change it they come back to something and then reach. What's the permit? Absolutely. Yeah. Approve it as applied and then if they change it they would come back. We wouldn't want to bias against us. The other thing I would encourage you to do is take or against when you decide. It wouldn't affect it. I would also encourage you to take a look at Rabelraiser when in the past when signs were approved with 24 inch letters there was a lot of issue with the size of the of the letters and the readability when you go from even across the street on the sidewalk the readability of a 16 inch sign from that distance there's a person who did a lot of sign design that I had worked with in the past myself and I shrunk my own sign and my pillar based on his set from distance readability from distance readability has more to do not just with size but with contrast and I would encourage you to take a look at reducing that 16 to 18 inches based on everything else up and down the street. Cool Jules got a huge amount of flag because of the signs of the letters there and I believe those were 24 inch. We were just talking back there excuse us for whispering. That's okay. About actually printing out and putting them up in paper and then they can walk around and really see what they're doing because I think that this hasn't involved at all. And again if you had explored that there's a distance a size of lettering contrast and a distance that makes it readable and balanced and some of the design for the sign who you're proposing oh okay sorry it's all metal last I knew okay we're getting an upload on that design with that material it's an evolving design to be readable but also balanced within the band and the building yeah the other thing is that only the I guess the taller but most of the letters are actually lower case or smaller but again this is something that it's evolving and reminding. So what we can do is approve it as proposed and then you have the option to make the lettering smaller and any significant change you know you have to come back otherwise it can approve the sign band brick color that sounds great that is proposed and again you have to come back if you wanted to change that are the planters removable? yes all of that exterior is removable and I think it would be removed when the snow plow is coming that's a public works requirement that all of that stuff I have a response from them just thinking on my desk by the way when you build those planters if you in building a planter if you give it a little bit of an overhang above a base you can make the base out of a like a pressure treated material so that the water and all the stuff on the sidewalk is not going to rot it out for you and then raise it up and give it a little lip like a toe kick under a cabinet and the other nice thing about that is you can come out with a block and a lever and jack it up slide a dolly underneath and roll it away it's very easy to do that I just think about the how easy or hard it is to move stuff like that planters are not like planters are like it's the dirt hard to have one without the dirt depending on the size of the root balls great so what we can do is also give you an option to make the lettering smaller than proposed in working out with your samples so that we only come back if we change what the lettering says but if we do the same lettering the same lettering proposed here and again the other stuff you can put inside the glass which is still readable to people walking along or again depending on the size of it even 10 to 12 inches is readable from the opposite side of the street very easily great and again you can change that you can move it around it gives you more flexibility so we're ignoring 7 in this that has a different scheme and we're talking about the music that's going to show around and maybe there may be something else coming as far as this application I've thought about this a lot and I fairly love like I'm kind of married to that so with the words so I anticipate coming back but I'm hearing you and I want to think it through more and we want to do some like things that we can look at with paper and so forth but just a teaser it's just if you put it in the signed band and all of a sudden you realize that people aren't coming in for one of the products you're advertising and now you're going to take that down and now your balance is thrown off I hear you but that's you know that's this sort of correction that I think you know if we're willing to understand the risks of it so understand one of the criteria's compatibility with the project the properties of the district yeah and that one and again we have to look at all the criteria absolutely and that's what I think the concern to be more is where you're saying the character and talent is such that that may not be I don't think I have a sign rec form that hadn't occurred to me that would take that would bear further you know just thought one quick question on the side here where there's black paint is that just a black paint line or is there some kind of de-mark or trim board or drip edge or something that defines that going around the alley a printing anomaly maybe it's contemplated just to be just to paint you're saying on the side right there no that's just going to be just a paint line just a paint line and maybe a straight maybe we'll do a string and we'll get it we'll figure out what's going to look the best it's actually interesting because it may like cross a couple of courses of bricks that was my only thinking if it's a you know if you've got brick and it's somewhat deteriorated or you've got a wavy grout line you know one thing you might want to do would be to use an adhesive and just put a trim strip along there you know even a 3-4 inch trim strip along there caulk behind it combination of caulk adhesive mounted and then caulk it really well put a little bit instead of a flat top put a bevel on the top so it drains off and then you can use it as a material if you want to do it with wood or something similar to wood there's some material now they carry it in Allen Lumber called Winsor 1 Winsor 1 and it's a great product it's impregnated it is wood but it's impregnated and it has a 30-year warranty on it excuse me we used to use like either clear or something like that but that stuff is hard to work with and it's a little more fragile this is really wood but it's impregnated so it's got a great warranty and it lasts really well that's good good point because we do need something I don't think anyone really put a string up to make sure you can get a good string it just looks sharper you've got it ran along the grill on it could be when I was doing it it could be straight it's possible but the drip getting the water off that one's talking to different people about it that's a really helpful thing and again just a slight bevel 5-10 degree bevel on it it acts like a water table so anything comes down it just shuts off drains off and dries out so for the sign that will be for the seating do you want to do paint and seating on one or separate this would be for seating paint we can do all of that as to whether that was a little front or not it's a public way so the early iterations that might be a Tom question I think it's a right of way but I don't think it's a public street it's a permanent easement I looked it up it's a permanent easement with public access I don't think it matters though for signage so could it, if we could do that there actually are some iterations on it because it's a great idea we would love that I don't know but it seems like a good place for a sign headed down the alley a little bit so that as you're driving down the main street towards Shaw's there's like a fair amount of buildings there that you can see you know that historically a shopkeeper certainly would have put a sign on that of course with all their like capital stationers somehow I thought that was slightly different based on historic signage it was already there exactly that was on the side of the wall from the like 20s or something when they first opened that was considered to be an historic I mean that's big and so that's a different thing adding signage based on frontage if you're worried about painting stuff on the side graffiti that may not be even a sign either that or if you put a trim board up top you could mount something beneath that that's removable removable, changeable right is that something that could be a repeat of the front sign but a painted version added to the side that's something we could let's look at the sign area in the district of the rules because you're somewhat limited in the amount of square footage you have based on the frontage of the building so you don't want to exceed that right and again I mean if you're I mean whether you're walking or if you're walking either on the sidewalk or on that side or the other side of the street you're probably I mean that's so readable from I'm not sure what you would what you would gain on the side of the building it's more about streetscape and intrigue you know just putting a little flavor out there so you could come back to do that when you if you come back with any changes to the sign we're proving tonight so firstly we'll there's the there's two separate criteria one for the sign and then one for everything other than the sign so we'll start with that one did anybody have any other suggestions we did say a horizontal trim board could be installed on the alley side brick wall at the top of proposed black painted area to delineate the brick above and the painted brick area below and again that's just to give you a little sharper delineation line and the evaluation criteria for that part is preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district involves an historic structure acceptable by the way is the black a a flat black or a satin color relatively flat you'll have to have some gloss to have durability like a satin somewhere but you gloss semi gloss satin and flat but flat is not very washable so a satin color is that what you would recommend I would think that would probably be the best in terms of appearance and upkeep the delineation board do you want to say anything about being screwed into brick versus brick yes when you mount the board you can use an adhesive but any mounting should be into the mortar joints as opposed to the brick because you don't want to fracture the brick any worse than it may already be back door is left open but it's just I should stop knocking there really must be getting annoyed when I put my phone I didn't touch it and I I'm sorry it's okay number two harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district acceptable three compatibility approach proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district acceptable four compatibility proposed landscaping acceptable with the planters prevention of the use of incompatible designs buildings color schemes or exterior materials acceptable location and appearance of all utilities no change in lighting or other than what's there okay might backlight the letters might be the metal panel so that none of this application that's right not exactly that's true recognition of and respect our view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house acceptable all in favor of this application raise your hand and for this application I'll have one of you sign that one in the lower left above my name and for the sign itself as proposed is everybody comfortable with a 24 inch lettering would you suggest reducing the size of that and the majority is probably around 1817 the lower case just well the the two R's well the two R's and then the legs on the B's and the L the legs right yeah I'm not opposed to the 24 if that's their choice if that's within the sign band how high is the sign band you know it's 38 38 I'm sorry the answer is I don't know it's big and currently the letters take up I believe even more space than what's there the one more time are really they're using almost the entire sign that sign had a lot of attention when it was it wasn't approved unanimously this will be a major improvement it'll be nice not to see a shoe up there changes you haven't changed have you have you is there a question mark one more time I think that was installed afterwards many years after it was closed really? that was a gorilla that was maybe even last year no kidding and so many people never notice the change oh how funny because it was vacant six, seven how many years? it was in operation when I first moved here I think over seven years ago and so maybe only a year and a half ago that question mark popped up oh that's so funny somebody thought it would be funny to screw it on that's so funny it's funny how you realize it wasn't always funny okay so what we did was we just give you the option as you do your final design for this approval that you can reduce it to whatever you want if you feel when you do a mock-up and put it up there and think wait a minute maybe we'll get better balance and still readable from the distance you're looking for so we just give that as an option and again the most readable signs are the ones with the most contrast so you're getting some contrast here will the cedar just have a clear finish on it? we might let it go to sort of a silver just let it be natural just because keeping up that kind of finish behind the letters it's going to be a lot of maintenance so the idea is that it'll go it'll be natural great natural the other thing you can do without doing a lot of maintenance other than just wiping it down every few years is to use a tongue oil yeah and then nothing's going to ever chip or peel it's just a matter of getting on a ladder and wiping it down with tongue oil again it's just another option it's not a requirement other comments questions suggestions okay the criteria for this one 1a preservation of reconstruction of the historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district involves an historic structure acceptable number two harmony exterior design with other properties in the district these are some of the criteria that is why I was referring to c compatibility proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district acceptable as proposed compatibility of proposed landscaping not for the sign that was on the separate application so it's not applicable with the sign prevention of the use of incompatible designs buildings color schemes or exterior materials the sign is acceptable location and appearance of all utilities again there's no change in the lighting that's there so no change so that's not applicable here recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house acceptable conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations acceptable compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties acceptable shall not obscure significant architectural details acceptable consistency and uniformity of multiple signs not applicable here illumination internally lit plastic signs prohibited not applicable here penance and banners not applicable individual letters affixed painted or engraved directly on the building or structure are encouraged acceptable all in favor of the application raise your hand and again I'll have one of you line this below my name or above my name on the left hand side there that's how we keep everything in the town looking good just like that well that's just that's just the beginning of your project that's all the work comes now thanks a lot you guys okay for the work you do thank you for tackling a good project all of you very exciting come in for chocolate thank you thank you goodbye and as far as the minutes go July the eighth we can't approve it because not enough people are here who were there these are DRB minutes and with the other one is the DRB minutes we can't approve those sorry we can't no worries let's take a mug back that's pretty weird I'll take this one too because we'll reuse that I'll take your both of your sets of minutes any other business do I hear a motion to adjourn all in favor of adjournment raise your hand meeting is adjourned