 Well, hello, everybody. I'm not sure if that was quite the right bumper as we went in. But this is actually the KB Insider show. And we are just starting. We air the show about once a month. And we so we normally do I think it's the last Tuesday of the month is the normal idea. But the goal of the show is to talk to various people who are what we refer to as insiders in the Kubernetes community. And the reason we like to talk to them is because it gives us a good idea of what the what the people who are actually doing the work are thinking is going to be happening soon in the Kubernetes space. And that way, as a audience member as a, you know, attendee or whatever here, you can try to get a better sense of what will be happening so that you can have a better sense of what you will be doing soon. So but we always like to kick it off with first, you know, I'm Langdon White. I am currently a professor at Boston University. I'm formerly with Red Hat, and I've been involved in the kind of container space for many, many years now. And I'm joined here with Steve Spiker. And I'll let you introduce yourself. Yeah, thanks, Langdon. As mentioned, Steve Spiker, I work at Red Hat. I've been a product manager in the Kubernetes space pretty much since 2015, I'd say. So I've seen a lot of changes. I'm the director of the developer tools space and a CNCF ambassador. So help run a local eat up here in the Research Triangle Park area in North Carolina. Nice. And our other regular on the show is Mina. And I'll also let her introduce herself before she helps us out with the news. Yeah, definitely. Hi, everyone. I'm Mina. I'm pretty sure if you've seen this show before, you've seen my face before, like Langdon said, we're here once a month. Although, right now, obviously, this is a little bit out of our usual timeline due to the holidays and Thanksgiving. So this is actually our last show of the year. We're very, very excited to be with you guys. I work at Red Hat as well. I'm on the product marketing team. And I do KBE news on the KBE website. So I'm excited to share with you guys some highlights from this past month. Should I go ahead, Langdon? Yeah, why don't you give us an update on the news? Sounds good. So let's start out with some announcements from the Linux Foundation, KubeCon North America 2022 will actually be on October 25 and 28 in Detroit, Michigan. I will be putting all the links to some of the announcements or the articles that I mentioned here so you guys can always go ahead and look at those after I talk. And then one important one is that KubeCon EU CFP closes on December 17. As a reminder, KubeCon EU will be an in-person event from May 17 to May 20. So don't forget that submissions must be received by 11.59 p.m. Pacific time on Friday, December 17. With that, we can highlight some of the articles that we shared on KBE news this past month. With Fintech on the rise, we have an article talking about how Kubernetes simplifies the operation of Fintech apps. Currently, Kubernetes is used by over 45% of companies. The convenience, speed, and reliability of the solution has been appreciated by finance companies like HSBC, Capital One, Starling, and ING. And there are some of these are the reasons why large corporations and Fintech startups choose Kubernetes. One, data security and failsafe operations. Two, automatic and safe scaling. Three, fast and economical operation of apps. Four, no downtime and convenient interface. Five, simpler to develop, update, and rollback apps. Then we have Jonathan Kaphson discussing the nine open-source developer tools for Kubernetes. The community surrounding Kubernetes is constantly sharing new tools and features to help developers run, test, and code cloud-native services within Kubernetes. While 2021 was a massive year for this kind of involvement, there's definitely a lot more to come. Here are some additional emerging open-source tools you should check out for testing, software delivery workflow monitoring, networking, scanning, and service mesh, among others. Cube monkey for testing, DevTron for software delivery workflow, Prometheus for monitoring, Argo CD for Kubernetes delivery, Calico for Kubernetes network, Istio for service mesh, Cubescape, Chekhov, and Trivi for Kubernetes scanning. So again, while 2021 was a pretty big year for open-source extensibility with Kubernetes, a high number of high-quality products, there's still plenty of opportunities for new innovation in the future. And then according to Matt, I say in his article, enterprises get closer to the App Store experience with Kubernetes and GitOps. The big enterprise problem isn't running hundreds of apps across multiple clouds. The big problem is running the same app consistently on just one cloud or data center. This is definitely a really interesting opinion piece. So definitely go and check it out. I had a really, really good time reading it personally. And then we have a couple announcements. Hamburg-based Kubermatic, a company that automates operations of Kubernetes clusters across multi-cloud on-prem and edge environments, announced that it has raised about $6 million in its seed round of funding. I think it's definitely very cool to see smaller startup stage companies innovate in this busy space, as we have seen over the last couple of months and over the past couple of years as well. And then as always, we cannot close out this new section without mentioning security somehow. Kubernetes default configurations don't always provide optimal security for all workloads and microservices deployed. Plus today you're not only responsible for defending your environment against vicious cyber attacks, but also for meeting a wide variety of compliance requirements. So we have an article that helps you understand Kubernetes compliance and security frameworks. Jonathan Kafton examines five major frameworks and how they can help your business use Kubernetes more securely. Again, security is one of the biggest issues that we've seen lately. So I definitely recommend you to go and check this article out. And while compliance may take some upfront work, the payoff in resilience and long-term business continuity will be worth it. In many cases, organizations discover additional benefits such as optimization and eliminating inefficient processes and services. I do want to end here with a blog post from our guest today, Kastlin Fields. As I mentioned earlier, KubeCon EU CFP closes on December 17th. Kastlin has been part of nine sessions at six different KubeCons and served as a track chair and CFP reviewer. In this post, she goes over things she thinks you should know about the KubeCon CFP. This is a really timely post and I highly suggest you go check it out on her blog. I'll be posting all the links, so I'll make it easy for you guys to review some of the stuff I highlighted here. But thank you and back to you and back to you Langdon and Steve. Thanks, Mina. As always, it's a good idea to try to keep up with the current events. And I know for me it can be a whirlwind to try to keep track. Plus, you know, obviously, like many of us, we do a lot of things that are not just Kubernetes. And so keeping track of this particular space, I think it's really helpful to have kind of a review there. And a phone that I didn't even know worked is currently ringing. So that's kind of annoying. All right. So today, we would like to welcome our guest. And let me see. Oh, there it goes. Okay. We'd like to welcome our guest, Kastlin Fields. And thank you. Thank you. And as a as kind of a pretty strong member of the community and pretty visible in that community, we like to talk to you about what's going on. And in particular, I think we could kind of start off with, I know when you were at KubeCon, you gave, you know, a keynote about multi cluster. And obviously, we would recommend people going in, you know, checking out the video of the recording. But the I would like to ask, why are you interested in that space? What is what's, you know, what are in general, why is the Kubernetes community kind of interested in multi cluster? What's the what's the big deal there? Yeah. So also, I should probably do a little bit more introduction. Mina already introduced me to some extent, but I'll say it again. Hello, everyone. Sorry, that phone really threw me my bad. All good. No worries. I know how it is. It's also 8am for me. So but hello, everyone. I'm Kastlin Fields. I'm a developer advocate at Google Cloud, where I focus on Kubernetes engine as well as open source Kubernetes. So I'm a contributing member of the community and as part of contributor comms in the upstream. Oh gosh. We call ourselves a couple of different things. Contributor comms in the upstream marketing team, which is part of the contributor experience team. Anyway, that being said, I also made a blog post of my KubeCon North America keynote. So if you haven't seen it and you'd like to check out the content, you can check it out there. And I also have the link to the recording on there. But as you said, it's about multi cluster. And I think from a variety of perspectives, that's an interesting topic to do a KubeCon keynote on. From the contributor community's perspective, it's interesting because I mean, Kubernetes came about in 2016 was the very first commit to the open source repo on GitHub. June 14th of 2016 or something like that. I have it on my wall usually, but I took it down today. And so it hasn't been around for all that long. Like it's, it's been around for a few years. But it's been steadily growing. The contributor community has grown immensely, of course. The user community has grown immensely. So for the first several years that Kubernetes existed, it was, you know, first this new technology that there was some buzz about. And there were these early adopters. And now it's kind of gotten to a point where there are a lot of companies using Kubernetes in production today. And Kubernetes is a tool for running workloads and applications at scale. So a lot of these companies are very large. And when you have companies that are very large, just one Kubernetes cluster will not do. So early on in Kubernetes existence, multi cluster wasn't that big of a deal because it was already handling like you could handle a lot with a single cluster. But now with these really large companies, often very distributed companies using Kubernetes, there are a variety of reasons why they need to have multiple clusters. And so that makes them ask, how do I manage all of these multiple clusters? Where Kubernetes is a tool for managing the applications. Now how do I manage the clusters themselves? So that's why multi cluster is exciting right now is that a lot of companies are actually getting to the point where they need multi cluster. So from the open source perspective, more folks are starting to get involved with contributing to multi cluster workloads because more companies need it. There's more information, more customer use cases to work off of, to build tools for multi cluster. And then from the user perspective, of course, a lot more people are using it. So they need those tools. So that was, I think a very timely thing to talk about in the Kubernetes. Yeah, definitely interesting. And particularly, I think the challenge with multi cluster rate is that you don't always want it to feel like multiple clusters. But then sometimes you do. And so I think that's a particularly challenging space. I think that's been an interesting model. I think it also plays into a lot of these ideas of Kubernetes as a control plane. We've actually talked about it on the show before. But you've also seen various people in the community kind of talking about this idea of Kubernetes can maybe be a backplane for lots of different things. So I think it's a really interesting and as you say, kind of timely topic. I know Steve, did you want to ask more about the multi cluster? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really interesting space because we've done a lot of experience in large clusters, but the way we hit limits with our customer base is I think you talked about it in your keynote as like 10,000 nodes within the cluster. But I think back like in the news around GKE and running Pokemon Go and like one application scale really large where we get a lot of tenants on our cluster's way to typically run some of our customers run it. And so the scale kind of breaks down more because of a number of namespaces and number of secrets per namespace and at CD limits and the watches all the controllers just tend to struggle a bit when you get to a certain size. So I guess I'm not asking a question, but I was just kind of curious your thoughts too when you've seen that explosion of where it's a multi-use kind of cluster where I think you talked about the importance of segregation also for security reasons between those organizations. So I don't know if you've you've run too much about that where it's packing a bunch of people if you will into a cluster and then the problems that's caused. Yeah, in my keynote I mentioned a few different use cases where companies come up against this and they need to have multiple clusters. And I love that you pointed out several that you've seen in real life. So one of them was multiple regions or environments. If you're running in different regions or environments then of course you're going to have to have different clusters. And one of them was this security consideration of if you have multiple tenants that you need to keep separate what tools do you have and at what point do you have a separate cluster? Because in a regular just a single Kubernetes cluster there's a concept of namespaces and role-based access control. And by using namespaces and role-based access controls together you can create a pretty solid structure for multi-tenant use cases, a lot of them. But there are still some cases where businesses feel more comfortable just having workloads on separate clusters sometimes for compliance reasons, sometimes for extra security just having the whole cluster boundary as a security boundary can sometimes just make things simpler and sometimes you need that. So there are a variety of security reasons why folks approach multi-cluster. And like you said it's also it's about managing all of these Kubernetes clusters together. I often think about it as Kubernetes for Kubernetes because people come to Kubernetes as a management tool for managing applications that scale across many different computers of varying sorts. And so having a concept of that but for whole Kubernetes clusters is often what people are looking for I find. That's interesting because one thing I was going to ask about is one of the coolest names I think of a sub-project to the Kubernetes was ubernettis early on what they did the first kind of wave at multi-cluster and then there was cube fed too kind of and so I was kind of curious in the what because there's been a lot of learning that's going on in the community about what to do with multi-cluster and how do you think you know those lessons have played into the current approaches of multi-cluster. Yeah the state of the art I used to talk about cube fed quite a lot because that was I think it was a pretty interesting attempt by the community to address this challenge but when I interviewed the the chairs of the special interest group for multi-cluster use cases within the open source project the folks working on it there told me that cube fed was mostly informed by what the contributors thought was going to happen when we reached this point where companies need to have multiple clusters and they need to manage multiple clusters. But when they created cube fed that wasn't a big use case that they actually saw. So they didn't have good user data to build these tools off of so cube fed was very opinionated and it made a lot of recommendations about this is how you do this and this is how you do this. But over time they found that those were maybe a little too rigid and they needed some different solutions to actually solve the problems that are happening with multi-cluster today. So in the talk I talked about a couple of different solutions that the folks in open source are working on. The main one is the multi-cluster services API which is new and it is a API standard that the SIG multi-cluster is coming up with. The interesting thing about API standards is that they're not implementations so this multi-cluster services API isn't something that's going to be in Kubernetes itself it's something where you're going to have to be using some sort of environment that implements this standard that the open source group came up with. But the concept here is for different Kubernetes clusters to be able to share what services they're running with other clusters so that you can log into one cluster and that cluster can know about all of the services it needs to know about even if they're running on a different cluster and that gives you some really interesting capabilities which pairs really nicely with something that the networking open source group SIG networking within Kubernetes has been working on which is gateway API that's been around a little bit longer there are more implementations of that but it's also an API standard so the concept of gateway API which I often here refer to as ingress v2 which I find interesting but the concept is basically to give users better tools for connecting their Kubernetes clusters together so ingress in Kubernetes is a tool for managing incoming traffic to your services from outside of the cluster and so gateway API takes that concept a bit further it was pretty basic in the initial implementations of Kubernetes and gateway API adds some additional tooling for managing that incoming traffic and also for managing the different types of many many different types of networks you could have for your Kubernetes cluster and for other Kubernetes clusters so by working with gateway API for managing networking managing traffic and this multi cluster services API for allowing a cluster to know more about what's going on other clusters we start to get a really nice solution here for multi cluster environments where you can actually do more things with managing multiple clusters that are not completely native to Kubernetes but at least from the Kubernetes open source project designed for how they see it being used. Yeah I mean one of the things I think that is really you know kind of interesting about how we do development a lot these days which is so much better than it was when I certainly got into it is you know kind of the idea of you know approaching a problem once there are users who are actually experiencing that problem so that you can kind of get feedback and actually build on and build what they actually are looking for rather than you know trying to build something that you theorize that they may need right you know I think a lot of this has to do with the technology changes right it's so much easier to you know kind of build something that's incorrect in Python and tear it down and build it again that has made that kind of style of development significantly simpler but it really does change things right and I think that's part of why it's kind of important to kind of follow the you know the news as it were in you know your open source projects or whatever because you you know people that it is adapting there is no big massive roadmap for the next 20 years that says this is exactly what we're going to build and how we're going to build it and what it's going to do the other part that I think is interesting that you kind of alluded to is you have semi-competing options or implementations or whatever you know and may the best tool win you know which you know can be a little you know a little scary you know you know thinking of like mesos versus kubernetes you know a while back for example but there have been many many others but so that's another reason why kind of keeping tight with the community or you know and and the project itself is a really good thing and being honest within the community about what's happening I think is also really important you know that you you know that it's not you know it's not some secret cabal making a decision nor is it every solution is the right answer right it's that you know there's certain use cases and that kind of stuff so I think that's a really this is the multi-cluster stuff I think is a really important thing to watch as well as the fact that I think that when you hear multi-cluster I think a lot of people aren't thinking of what the kubernetes community really means and what I mean by that is like you know when you say multi-cluster usually it just means like some you know interface or some UI or something that you know goes and triggers them independently this this seems at least like it's going for something more than that right it's more it's in the sense more not complex but more sophisticated maybe is a better word uh and I think that's kind of yeah yeah like yeah I can't think of a good you know English word for it yeah that's similar that was thinking through like the use cases around this networking um the gateway api and it made me think and I think Blaine and touch for that too is like this this choice is the community because we heard some news about history and I started thinking people here is the on some of these cases and what that does and it solves some multi-cluster mesh issues and people solve mesh there and I don't know what you could say maybe a little bit about the different use cases between the two why they're different how they come together or um I think that would be that would be a would help me yeah they're not not networking native people out there who would be interested to hear I love that you made that connection between the gateway api and service mesh it's not something that I had thought much about but I talk about service mesh quite a bit as well and yeah there's a lot of kind of parallels there and this concept of um managing ingress as well as uh kind of managing the networking of your cluster and between your clusters so I would say that service mesh if you've ever tried to work with a service mesh you'll be very familiar with this they are pretty complex I tend to try to avoid that but I think with service mesh it's hard to avoid saying that they're pretty complex they have a lot of moving pieces and a lot of things when I first started talking about service meshes I thought of them as like you've got your kubernetes cluster that's running all of your applications and it's doing a lot of really nice management stuff but once you start to get into it you start to see these gaps of things that aren't really in scope for kubernetes things like observability is something that's kind of missing there and some ingress controls like uh proxies having a proxy there with your application that can maybe manage um permissions for uh what can talk to your application at a more granular level some logging and monitoring um so there's a variety of tools here that aren't really within the scope of kubernetes but you really need in order to run kubernetes effectively and so service meshes came in and they just kind of had all of these tools as part of them and they were kind of trying to fill all of these gaps which naturally made them sort of complex to understand and to use um so they're trying to solve a lot of different problems I think whereas the gateway API is really focused on this problem of gateways and networking of making sure that things can communicate effectively so it does address some of those challenges that I think that service meshes also address um but it's much more limited in scope that's how I think about it it makes sense yeah cool so kind of maybe changing directions a little bit um you know I I kind of you know in the research for kind of doing the show right there's you have a lot of kind of involvement in you know kind of new contributor um you know activities let's say um and so what I'm curious about because I watched your panel uh from kubecon which I found interesting and I also found my new favorite phrase uh from cat cosgrove but I wanted to mention uh so that's all about non-code contributions so why you know why do you feel like that's really important to kubernetes and or um you know is it a gap or why and why might it do you think it's a gap uh you know if if that makes sense as a question yeah yeah that makes sense to me so uh it depends on what perspective you're coming from how you see non-code contribution for the kubernetes community we have this gigantic project it's one of the largest open source uh communities in the world second only to linux I think if that's still the case yeah it's yeah definitely in the ballpark yeah yeah it's huge and it's got this huge user base as well so there's always new requests coming in there's always new features that need making but something that you might not think much about with an open source technical project like this is there's a lot of behind the scenes work that does not involve coding that keeps this project running some of it is creating documentation that's a form of non-code contribution for writing documentation you have to get a really good understanding of how the project actually works so that can be a great way to learn and then also help others because you're contributing documentation back there's also things like product management type roles basically that have to happen because there's a lot of different features of kubernetes there's these special interest groups um which have chairs who kind of manage what's going on in those groups um but at some point you have to like i'm part of the release team right now there's a lot of non-code contribution in the release team because we have to i'm in i'm part of the comms group for the release team this time so for example we have to create blog posts about here are the different features that are going to come out with the new release um here's kind of an overview of what's going on with the release there's a lot of communications that have to happen to make sure that the user community and the contributor community are aware of what's happening in the release um and there's all sorts of communications that go on in the meantime about changes and discussions that are happening in contributor communities uh maybe a new feature came out a while ago and nobody's really using it nobody seems to know it exists how do we get people to know that exists so i spent a lot of my time on like uh communications and marketing type uh non-code contribution so there's all of these different activities that have to happen for the project to be successful that don't involve code and i think when you think about contributing to open source that's not the first thing you think about usually yeah i mean the um the documentation question i always think is really interesting uh for many years whenever i was leading a dev team if i got a new person on the team their first job was to update all the docs for the onboarding right so um you know usually usually somebody did you know a half baked attempt at least initially right um but then every time you get a new person right things are new and because they're new to them it makes a big difference and there was a point uh it was made in the panel i don't remember who exactly made it but that you know as as a newcomer to the community uh you have a lot of you know kind of experience with not kubernetes that that you can help with things like communications right where you can kind of say hey can you read this over does it make sense to you as somebody who is not embroiled in this all the time um you know or docs as well right you know kind of the onboarding content so like i'm a i'm a big fan of that as well and then what i think is interesting about it too is that non-code contributions doesn't mean you aren't a coder necessarily either right is that when you're approaching a project or you're approaching getting involved in a community um you know even as a coder for many many years now um you know one of the things i do look at is i look into the documentation i look at the open issues i look at who's involved in the project i look at um you know all these kinds of different things and i try to give back there for one thing i spent too much time as a as a college newspaper editor and as a result i you know i fix grammar by default um so you know so i try to i try to contribute in little bits as we go along and i think it's really really important you know whether you're a coder or not a coder i mean there's all these kinds of things that need to happen uh one of the things i wanted to also kind of ask in a related way about that was um it came up a few times and i've heard it elsewhere as well is that the kubernetes community is very social compared to many open source communities um and could you elaborate on what that means um you know and and like why is like somebody who is a consumer of kubernetes why does that matter to me yeah i love that question that's really fun phrasing too i don't think i've ever heard someone refer to the kubernetes community as social but i think it's absolutely accurate and makes total sense and i think people should say it more but so the concept here i think is this actually reminds me i was looking at the the game awards last night and one of the categories for the game awards is um uh games where the the developers of it the creators of the game are very engaged with the community and the community is very engaged that's what kind of we have going on here with kubernetes is the folks who are making kubernetes the open source contributors we have a slack we also have the cncf slack that a lot of us are in i have a lot of people who we chat with each other and we end up on the cncf slack talking about a kubernetes issue or a price versa and so we were very communicative that respect we have all of these challenge uh challenges channels for the different special interest groups like contributor experience networking multi-cluster they all have their own channel so if you had a question for the people who work on that specific thing you could go to that channel and ask and there they are so that's really important for uh end users but also we have our own blog so for external communications that the kubernetes community is just pushing out there we have a blog we have a twitter as well for the kubernetes project at whole as a lard at large as a whole both of those and then we also have a twitter just for the contributor community for contributor news and what's going on in in that community so both from the end user perspective and from the perspective of being a contributor we're always communicating in open spaces also everything we do on github of course is open and available and you can look at it all of our meetings like sig contribex even the steering committee of the whole kubernetes project itself a lot of those meetings are recorded and put on youtube if you ever want to know what happened and who was in the room when it happened you can find out because all of that stuff is open and available and you can see it so that's a great thing for end users because they can see what's going on and it's a great thing for contributors because they can see what's going on yeah i mean i think you know like you kind of raise a good point right it's like if you're if you're not sure about what's going on or like why a decision was made or what you know whatever going back and actually hearing the argument right um really can help a lot you know sometimes it reinforces the reason why you disagree with them but you know it can also you know kind of educate the you know give you a little bit of background and tell you why you know the choices were made and whether it's a good you know and and maybe where that it's going to go in the future um you know because i think you know rarely does it occur that you know when you make a decision for example to drop a feature it's not that the feature is completely you know useless quote unquote as much as it is the approach maybe isn't the right one or you know and so there's a plan to do something else or as we were kind of talking about earlier the users aren't there so we're not getting good feedback on the feature so we don't necessarily want to support it because we don't know that it's actually working you know then it gives you an opportunity as a user right to say oh wait no i am here you know please you know please bring it back or please let me how can i contribute so that i can help you bring that you know feature or whatever it is back um yeah so i think i thought that was uh an interesting remark like i said i've heard it in kind of a couple different contexts um you know i think one of the things uh going to your kind of your day job right as a developer advocate uh i used to be a developer advocate at redhat um and what i think is funny is uh there's um there's a book about developer advocacy that i i'm not think i can't think of the name over at this minute but uh one of the things it comments on is that while that role is kind of new as a job title uh the role has actually existed for a very long time um and i know i played it in a lot of different projects you know well before i had it as a title um but i think kubernetes uh you know kind of the cncf ambassador community uh as well as there's a lot of developer advocacy type people in the community i think that has really increased that communication and that social aspect of it because you have you know developer advocates generally speaking are kind of good communicators by default right so as a result i think that's really improved the communication within that community um and you know there's a number of other communities we can mention that uh you know don't have similar or have uh kind of the reverse challenge uh that you know but we won't talk about those today um yeah that was good yeah i was going to notice because like the the social part was an interesting way to phrase it too because i think it goes a little bit to what kubernetes said is the very welcoming very helpful it's very inclusive group so it's like that's the thing everyone feels welcome so they're willing to feel more social kind of about it and as a way of not just going to it for the social aspects but really it's that really kind of uh feeling of community and belonging so it's really been interesting to see what i've uh seen as everyone get involved in those that i follow so i think it's really and at length its point it's you know uh kind of refreshing from some of the other projects that existed in how they've been run and i think it goes to the early the originators and the way they want to coordinate these to be accepted and grown and so i think it's really stuck to its roots so it's really been been helpful to see and not and not trying to make a complete transition from there but i think it might be a natural one is because of the call for paper things we talked about and you're working towards and that's that's that date's coming up as far as that deadline and that's a great way for people to share their experiences whether it's at any level whether they're a lead in it but also um you know what that process is just curious if you have any kind of quick helpful hints of what it means to write a good abstract and and that whole process absolutely and i want to also make a comment on something you were saying there i recently read uh nadia eggball's book on open source working in public which is here on the shelf behind me the red one and and she makes a really great comment in there that the reason that a lot of folks don't contribute is not because it's technically difficult or they don't have the skills it's social fear they don't want to do something wrong in this community that exists around the project they think there's millions of eyes watching them make a mistake exactly yeah and that's something we talk about in the panel as well my advice in there is learn in public it can be really scary to make mistakes in public but we're all doing it yeah i'm actually that's one of the things that i'm really curious to see how that changes with kind of the current generation kind of getting older you know i have uh you know i have a 19 year old son um and his approach to doing things in public is very different than my traditional approach of doing things in public right and so i'm really curious to see how when we as we see more of them kind of move in to you know positions of of you know visibility in a sense um you know are they more willing and more open to doing that is that is that maybe the positive side of you know the the very much drop in general privacy um you know maybe there maybe there are some upsides to to all of that um but uh going back to Steve's question um you know do you have a kind of recommendation in public yeah yeah talking about abstracts so i haven't actually written mine yet which i really need to get on i need to do that well i mean i you know it's you got to like three minutes before the deadline right isn't that the general yeah exactly it's fine i have run many a conference as well and uh yeah the the pile you get on cfp announce day and the pile you get on cfp close day is is really kind of hilarious yeah and also it looks like we have a really interesting question from the audience which we'll get to in a minute but talking about abstracts for kubecon first so in my blog post i go over a lot of information it was really hard to figure out what to fit into the blog post i realized that um there are a lot of things that go into a kubecon call for papers and i want people to know about how that process works and what the meaning of it is and what it means for you um so it was hard to figure out all the pieces to put in there but the blog post goes over the timeline of here's the the date that's coming up of course is the close of the cfp and for most folks that's kind of where your work ends for now is you submit something and then you kind of throw it into the void and wait for judgment um but in the blog post i go over all the steps that happen in that waiting period something you understand um what you're waiting for and it's actually they get the the judge judging done really fast considering all the pieces they have to go through and then yeah to summer 17th and then also hi carlos and um and then i go over kind of getting to the the conference itself which i'm hoping to do another blog post on later um but your current segment is creating your abstract and submitting basically applying to speak at kubecon is what i want to frame this as if you've ever wanted to speak at kubecon or uh like we said if you want to have some experience of learning in public in a very uh public speaking kind of way this is a good opportunity for that and there are a variety of different types of talks um at kubecon so it doesn't have to just be a 25 minute talk there's also panels i think this year they're doing lightning talks they don't always but i don't have to check on that i think there might also be some concept of workshops um but so kubecon has a variety of different ways that you can communicate your expertise your knowledge your experiences using not just kubernetes we talk about kubecon mainly but it's also cloud native con it's the whole cncf's conference so if you have experiences contributing to open source projects or working with open source projects preferably that are part of the cncf those are also really valuable experiences to share and the important thing to keep in mind here is the audience of kubecon the folks you're talking to are going to be contributors to these projects they're going to be users of these projects and that consists of a variety of roles it's not just technical folks who are doing coding or running these projects there's also a lot of folks there from uh organizations that you might not normally think of like sales of course there are program managers or project managers so there are folks who aren't directly working with these things who need to know how they work so there are a variety of different um kind of uh user roles yeah personas to appeal to and there's so much information that you might have that would be valuable to share and the kubernetes community really encourages new folks if you've never given a talk like that before but you have something that you'd really love to share with those types of communities we'd love to have your cfp well cfp by the way call for papers is like i said just an application to speak it's saying here's the topic i want to talk about here's how it's relevant to the community and here's some supporting resources my number one tip for anyone doing this provide any supporting resources you have about what you want to talk about if you've written a blog post on the topic if your company posted something about your project if there's anything out there i might go i might even go further in the sense that um if you want to propose an abstract go write a blog post so that you can conclude it as supporting resources like if you haven't if you haven't yet go you know use use that as encouragement you know the more buzz you can create even if it's like you know the more buzz you can create on your topic whatever the more likely it is that they're gonna you know that they're gonna understand what it is that you're trying to talk about yeah and don't feel like oh no i ruined the whole talk by telling them what's in it no right tell them what's in it that was interesting good i was gonna i was gonna ask about that like you said that looking for new speakers but you know going through the submission process and and the kind of selection rating voting there's a little bit of like making sure people have some speaking experience like sometimes they want to make sure that you know it's going to be a quality channel which you talk about like sort of have a little bit of history if you will which is you know hard to say to do now on December 7th but um just so people can set their expectations on whether they can just first time ever speaking submit one versus you know go through a meet up or two and then kind of say well this is getting good attraction so i was curious if you could coach a little bit of that yeah yeah of course if you have an idea and you've never spoken ever anywhere before it's a great idea to try to get that talking at something like a meet up of course a lot of those are virtual these days um or maybe even just present to your team internally you can't like put a link to that recording in your your submission but you can say hey i gave this presentation to my team and i got this feedback so that the judges know that it's real so it doesn't just have to be public public speaking it can also be to smaller groups as long as you're practicing what you're doing and you're showing that you are putting thought into the process of developing yourself as a public speaker that can help to show that you're going to give a good talk um and there are occasional instances where someone who doesn't really have any visible references for public speaking ends up speaking at kubicon or other events if you just have a really good idea that you explain really clearly and you demonstrate your communication capabilities maybe through your blog post maybe through other medians that can also help the the reviewers to know that you're going to give a good talk i would also kind of throw that you you kind of said meet ups in kubicon right but there's there's also an in between there of the smaller conferences and not to you know uh you know pitch my own show too much um so we actually do a conference here called devconf us there's another one devconf cz but devconf us actually all of them are specifically targeting new speakers um as a as a way to say hey never given a speech you know a talk before we do speaker coaching we do abstract coaching we do uh we actually do attendee coaching as well so that you know as a way to kind of break into maybe something a little smaller before you're going to something quite as big as as kubicon or cloud native con um so like i said pitch my own thing but there are there's a lot of in between um you know there's one because i think you're you're based on the west coast um the one it's um i want to call it sale but it's not that but it's got a really i think scale oh there's scale yeah that's definitely no i was thinking one um there's another one yeah in seattle uh that's that's smaller than a seagull that's a seagull oh yeah um yeah uh so you know there's a lot of other options kind of in between but meetups are a good start and then you kind of gradually escalate right uh and it really does make a difference and if your talk doesn't get accepted there's even one specifically for talks that didn't get accepted to kubicon because there are so many good talks really great talks that don't get accepted because there's just so few slots so there's a whole other conference that happens right before kubicon of talks that didn't get accepted to kubicon yeah it's like it's like the five step fringe um which i also think is a hilarious concept um so uh we don't have a ton more time uh if you don't mind i kind of want to move on a little bit uh and kind of ask something that that i haven't seen you talk very much about before but um one of the things that i think has been really interesting uh particularly during the pandemic is the kind of growth of twitch for example as places to learn about how to do tech you know not just play video games um you know that we don't pull the minecraft you know player million views uh you know million concurrent users at the same time but there is a you know very quickly growing consumption there uh the other one that i think is really hilarious is learning tech stuff on tiktok uh which i find really interesting and really hard um and i'm just kind of curious what's your opinion there what are your thoughts there i don't know if you're a video medium kind of person i know i'm not particularly i tend to do a lot of it but i don't actually consume it very well yeah i have some similar uh eccentricities where i produce some types of content that i don't consume as much um i always feel a little odd doing those but i'm really excited yeah i'm really excited for the huge variety of different types of content though that are coming out these days whether it's live streams or videos or tiktoks like you said there's some really interesting coding and technology tiktoks um podcasts blogs uh i like to do art and comics which i guess that we haven't mentioned but my my keynote i illustrated my whole keynote so the blog post is all illustrated i have a lot of fun with that and i think that's a big part of making technology accessible is having it in a lot of different forms it's really tough to learn technology sometimes because it doesn't really apply to our everyday lives in a lot of ways especially something like kubernetes and these technologies that are really meant for operating at scale and large companies and helping them to do the work that they need to do for a lot of folks that's not part of their daily lives so it's hard to understand what that means and how they would go about getting involved in those spaces so the more places that we have that information the more people it's accessible to i think which is really awesome right yeah yeah i think that's the the part that's been particularly interesting one of the things i really find interesting about the streaming in particular is um it's not edited normally right so you you can watch an expert fail and how they recover but the really hard part to learn right is how do you recover how do you debug which is i think one of the things that's really difficult to learn without just straight up experience so i think that's one of the things that i find really interesting about twitch so you brought up the comics right and so i wanted to bring that up i mean i'm so jealous uh you know i've seen your talks right i've seen uh there's another guy i know just uh vashlaq uh pavelin who also illustrates his own talks um which i'm like i just you know whatever and then there's mo duffy of the fedora community who's been doing comic books uh to explain tech they're currently working on one about k native um so i think that's a really interesting model um how much do you use that technique to teach it to yourself in a sense absolutely i talk a lot about like conference driven development yeah yeah whenever i'm whether you're writing a blog post whether you're making a comic whether you're doing a livestream like this you end up learning so much in order to produce the content to teach others so any way that you can communicate knowledge is a great way to learn right right uh yeah it's kind of crazy the uh you know becoming a college professor right i know way more about the stuff i'm teaching now that than i ever did before right the ins and outs really really uh deeply uh so it's been really interesting um so uh let's see do we i wonder is there was something in the audience oh that's what it was i was like i know we missed something um yeah where carlos had a question about robocop at cube con detroit no just kidding it was about cncf hiring dev advocates yeah for kubernetes are related projects which i think is an interesting uh specification there so when i was at cube con i met someone who is a developer advocate in developer relations with the cncf and i think i i meet a variety of people who work for the cncf i don't always know their role titles so it's possible that i've met folks who are doing that uh for the cncf before but this person was kind of new to the role and so we spent quite a good amount of time talking about what does developer advocacy mean especially with the cncf and kind of exploring what the community was doing and all sorts of dev rel type thanks um so it appears that the cncf is has at least hired one developer advocate or developer relations person i don't think that they will ever do it on the scale of like every project it gets their own i mean maybe uh but if they did it would only be for like graduated projects so for anyone not very familiar with the cncf um there are so many open source projects that are part of the cncf and cncf is a a nonprofit organization that's goal is to benefit open source cloud native technologies and so they provide a lot of really nice tools like a code of conduct that applies across all of their projects some varying management um tooling and capabilities and processes um that they give to their projects and also some marketing that they do for the various projects and projects usually come in around the sandbox or incubating stage uh sandbox is something that maybe has a small contributor maybe not a whole lot of uh end users incubating you start to get a bit bigger your contributor group is more diversified across a variety of companies maybe across a variety of locations you're starting to get more end users and then uh graduated our projects like kubernetes where it has huge user base and a huge contributor community that's very robust and likely to keep going for a long time um so if the cncf were ever to hire developer advocates on a project basis i think they would only do it for graduated projects which are the most mature ones um but for now i think they'll probably just have a few that are more general well and i mean you're because it's an open source project involved with a lot of you know very large companies involved there are a lot of developer advocates being uh provided to couldn't quote the cncf right um you know i can i can name at least one at google uh you know i can i can name a few at redhat um you know so so there's there are a lot of those opportunities as well um you know usually but to kind of your point right they're usually um a little broader than than one project um you know or you know actually one of the chats in the in or one of the conversations in the chat is talking about um you know kind of platform as a whole kind of advocates uh you know it's funny because i read that and i immediately think linux um but we also are talking about uh kubernetes here too right as as the platform itself um and uh you know so i know for example i know redhat uh has that um or or did when i left right um you know and i don't know what's what is your platform ad or what is your kind of advocacy like focus quote unquote is it kubernetes it's cncf is it it's a variety of things for there's always kind of the the business side of it at least for my work there's the business side of it and there's the community side of it that's true for any developer advocate because our goal by the way for developer advocates is we are advocates for the developers or or users generally of these technologies doesn't just have to be developers even though we use that term it's very very broad um so my work and one thing that i tell a lot of folks who are interested in the field of developer advocacy and developer relations is that some companies have developer advocates or developer relations as part of their sales groups and that can be really tough for the developer advocate to do the work they need to do because you come in and you have to be like well i am part of sales so and that instantly any community that you're talking to any user that you're talking to is like changes your relationship a lot yeah changes the relationship i don't know if i want to talk to you about my problems because then you're going to try to sell me something and so that just makes our job as developer advocates really hard because our goal is to advocate for you we want to hear about your problems so that we can make our products better and if if you're not willing to communicate with us then that's not helping us so i think platform advocacy like being engaged with the engineers who are actually doing the work is essential to any developer advocates work yeah one of the things i did at redhead actually when i first started there was you know my first role there was a developer advocate and i was like well now i need to meet all of the engineers right and so i started what i referred to as the sticker depot and so i started keeping stickers on we had really big desks in our office so i had kind of this empty area on my desk i would keep stickers there and i had a take a sticker leave a sticker policy and i got to know everyone right because that worked really well to get people to drop by and say hi and so i got to know lots and lots of engineers see it's even harder than now than it was then because i think at redhead was about 5000 people then you know maybe half or something being programmers and you know now it's 12 000 plus you know so so it's a little bit more difficult but yeah getting to know all the engineers because you want to be able to communicate yeah you want to be able to communicate well yeah if you include IBM if you want to be able to communicate kind of both outbound and inbound about what is going on with their experience you know what a developer's experience is i thought it was a really interesting job you know but i i left it because as i joke they got tired of me complaining and made me come and fix stuff in engineering so so that's what i went and did um but the thing like developer what a developer word starts and ends and that's where like we argue about this all the time in my role like yeah because it's any of you look at like out of free of which kubernetes it was like 60 percent of the attendees were developers of seattle and i'm like it's like and but then you look at the technologies they use these terraform chance well like some of the things so like a lot of them are kind of some people would call infrastructure here but really they see themselves as developing for the infrastructure as well as representing their developers in the end is you know helping them be protected when they develop themselves a really interesting anonymized data point for you a lot of the users that i've been talking to lately i came up with this uh little survey that i give a lot of folks sometimes whenever i can and people never like to identify themselves as operations is something i've liked people always want to be developers no matter what they do like i try to describe the roles not as like this is your role title but like this is what you do um but they still shy away from it i feel like they still shy away from it that might just be confirmation bias or something but right right right that's a problem when you're doing like surveys right if if you're handing them out uh you know it obviously tends towards bias uh we are just about out of time so i don't want to um you know kind of go over too much i did want to get to my final final question which was that we saw your git cheat sheet uh what you know and i've been working on trying to actually have a location where i could like stick cheat sheets any other cheat sheets you you strongly recommend oh yeah um you mean this one nice nice yeah this is by sose plush by the way so sos plush i don't know i think it's sose plush okay all right but she's on twitter she has her own shop and she makes these great little mouse pads as well as i have the like print version as well that i can put on my wall um so i have the git one and i also have a vim one and there's a great uh keeps etl cheat sheet on the kubernetes documentation um i love fun fact style learning yeah cheat sheets are always great i think putting them on walls putting them as mouse pads um all sorts of places is a great great place for fun fact cheat sheets right right exactly uh well thank you so much for coming uh you know and uh you can you can find caslin on her blog at caslin rocks or caslin dot rocks um and uh on twitter as your caslin fields right on twitter um and uh you know obviously and speaking at lots of conferences and you know going and advocating for kubernetes and cncf all over the place uh so uh oh thanks so much for coming and giving us a little insight into how you see what's happening at kubernetes yeah thanks so much for having me it was great talking with you thanks for enjoying it