 So I invited you both to come and talk about this issue of free speech Which is one of the core tenants of CCTV open access and one of our missions is free speech open access But it's all so about building community. And so there's attention sometimes wouldn't be I don't think there's a tension That's the point. Yeah Sandy you have I One year award for free speech. I know you have strong views that I want to hear from and Marina also did public records request around the show that was done with Christopher Aaron Felker around stickering and Some of the comments that were made in the show Seeming to some folks to be Harmful hateful or hurtful to transgender folks in the community and it sort of began a an internal conversation about how our organization balances free speech With serving the needs of community building and so I just wanted to bring you two here together to talk about this and you know Maybe share some insight and maybe one thing is just to start with why free speech is Important because I know it is to both of you and and what that means where that comes from And maybe just actually if you just introduce yourselves Well, I'm Marina Brown. I've been involved in promoting speech free speech internationally I've been thanked by people for in Saudi Arabia for running tour relays that allowed them to Speak to the rest of the world without the restrictive firewall that Saudi Arabia puts in I Won't give details, but I have been involved in a free speech lawsuit where I was promoting Promoting for a lesbian professor who was fired for her beliefs. So the settlement of the agreement forbids me from talking more which I At this point in my life deeply regret not taking that to court I should have done that but my mother worked at the college I Do a lot of stuff dealing with fascism and when you deal with fascism you deal with the issue of free speech In United States right now, there's two cases that particularly concerned me One of them is the stop cop city movement where people are being criminalized for their beliefs the prosecutor the DeKalb County prosecutor is using the beliefs and even people signing a cab on things as Saying that they are part of a wider conspiracy Dan Baker is an antifascist who went to Rajava to fight ISIS and when he came back he Saw what was going to happen on J6 as many of us did and he told people come to the Florida State House to protect this against assault he is now sitting in prison because they construed his earlier statements to be terrorist One of the things, you know, I worry about I get upset when right-wingers Wine about their free speech, you know, they're coming to take my rights away my speech away say that I can't talk about CRT and schools and I Think that's kind of ironic Great. Thanks. So that Marina. Thanks for introducing yourself and be touching on a couple things to talk about Sandy Do you want to just introduce yourself? And maybe where are you? Where as you come from with your belief in free speech? Okay? I'm Sandy bear and I'm an attorney and I guess on this issue. I would call myself a free speech absolutist First of all, we are probably the only Constitution in the world which guarantees free speech I don't know any other Constitution that has such a strong Statement in it about the rights of people to pretty much say and think whatever they want to say or think And I value our Constitution deeply as everyone probably in this community knows Beyond that, I mean, I believe in our Constitution the United States Constitution was put into place Against the tyranny of the British government That's what our Constitution protects and protects speech even if it's against the government even if it's against even if it's what you call hate speech because to me There is no such thing as hate speech if it's speech It's allowed under the United States Constitution and in a sense speech also protects against violence I believe that because when you talk to each other That's a way that you're not going to beat each other to a pulp So I believe that in two levels one, it is a guarantee of our Constitution absolute free speech Secondly, it is a guarantee that peaceful conversations can happen Even when when people violently disagree if you're talking you're not killing each other So those are the two reasons that I would really call myself a free speech absolutist So and Marina I want to I want you to respond but I think there's I think I'm curious a little bit about the speech against the government and then speech against Individuals or marginalized people or protected groups I well as I said, I think speech is absolutely allowed what isn't allowed under our Constitution Or in our law is threats against people physical threats that is not allowed and I agree with that Brandenburg versus Ohio 1969 says your speech is allowed unless it Is creates an imminent threat of lawless action however in In the international criminal tribunal on Rwanda they Even though that was an international tribunal they considered the Brandenburg decision There were radio broadcasters in Rwanda that kept on talking about you know, we're going to kill the minorities We're going to kill them and this speech got louder and louder and louder until it provoked the the genocide in Rwanda Likewise, many American jurists were present at Nuremberg where Julius Stryker was prosecuted and Ultimately hung for his promotion of genocide against the Jews He Stryker did not Do one Bit of the Holocaust He he tortured some prisoners when he was a commissar there, but he didn't participate in that it was his speech That's dangerous that went beyond that right and we have to we have to recognize the difference between Opinion and you know, everyone's got you know to put it crudely Everyone's got a hole in their rear just like everyone's got an opinion What I worry about is when people organize to harm minorities and many of the groups like that I I fight against like the vanguard america Became the patriot front they organized to hurt people Jews will not replace us is what they chanted in Charlottesville and these these it was vanguard america that that brought james fields there and as a researcher on the far right many times I watch people's speech escalate and create these massacres like the guy who shot up the the Sandingog and pittsburgh I was Doing I had a computer program that you're talking about two different things that a guy who organizes shootings Of course is a criminal where so I guess the I guess for us and this is something That I that Where where comes the line sandy or marina? How do you think about? Holding other community members And and what happens when there is hurtful or harmful or hate speech whether you can define that or whether you can recognize it Or whether you feel it because people think the law is not governed Maybe unfortunately for you megan and maybe unfortunately for a lot of people The law is not governed by feelings. The law is governed by our constitution under our constitution there is Freedom to be hateful It then becomes I think what I'm hearing marina say is there's more than feelings. It becomes actions It becomes if when it becomes action, of course, it's criminal Yeah, you're the organization that I am annoyed at you for supporting the lgb alliance Is organizing harm against trans people. This is not just opinion It's organizing to hurt my community and I am I am partially here To say that and I for you. Thank you for your opinion. Yeah, and I am organizing against your group. I guess so So so This is an opportunity to I mean if if one way to counter hurtful or harmful speech or bad speech or speech you don't like is to I think it's a small speech. Yeah, I know I think is I would say have more speech So but but where does that go? What happens? Well, how do how do we engage? What happens is how do we engage with one another? What's called megan is conversation. Yeah, so we're having so yes, so how do we have that conversation now? Yeah The conversations often spill over into violence. I've been At many places where it did. I was at charlotte'sville. I was attacked by nazis Yes, there were peaceful conversations even between the far right and one of my conversations caused a lot of Consequences because it was publicized But there was also Attempted murder and I got attacked but you heard what I said attempted murder is a crime. Yes It is but we have to recognize Where people are organizing to do a program You can and when you see that you can't say it's just it's just speech when it's organ I said clearly and I'll say it again If people are organized to harm people It's a crime go to the police about it Well The police don't usually do anything about it. Like I like I'm sorry about that when I when I'm sorry about that I don't I don't deal. I don't care about what the police do. I am I am a community I'm an anti fascist Organizer and I put my body. I do care. I put my body between The community and these people and I've been harmed by that. I have two done both. So Right now if we can just bring it back to this community organization, so we're looking at this community organization Yeah, cctv. So if we're just looking at we're looking at cctv, right? And so one of the principles one of the ideas is if and maybe both of you can speak to this is when A society like ours that has a constitution functions best when the when the organizations that exist in it are able to achieve or strive for Meeting those same constitutional standards. So there's actually nothing that prevents cctv from shutting its doors from saying You know, we'll have these shows and we won't have these shows We're a nonprofit private organization. We're not a government entity You receive funds from the government. Well, it's been it has been tested. We do receive some funds For town meeting tv so we can set up policies So we we have an aspirational Idea around keeping the doors open to all and for free speech We also want to balance that with being an organization that recognizes power of balance So help talk me through that If it's outside the legal realm Help talk me through that. How would you I'm not able to do that because I honestly don't know what you're talking about If this organization received I'll give you a perfect example of what you guys helped me on One time Do you remember when there was an attempt to shut down Al Jazeera English in this community? And that's what was argued by those who wanted to shut that down. Yep It was hate. It was a terrorist organization. It had to be shut down You know how we won on it was run on burlington telecom. It was run on burlington telecom It had government funds Because it had government funds and it was owned by our government the city We were able to argue that under our constitution They could something like the group that tried to censor Al Jazeera English could not do that constitutionally That's how we won that example. Do you don't you think that Al Jazeera English was called hate speech? Terrorist speech remember that and I was but it's not I was interviewed by this Organization on that subject. Yeah, no, I mean and we want it. Yeah, it's clearly not hate speech the Al Jazeera. It's just news And I would argue so I think this is the point where we let me say I I run a very small hosting business I uh have a terms of service I feel that it as a platform and I do not receive government money. It is my Responsibility and my free speech right. Yes to Eliminate any hate speech from my from my platform and I do so I would say that the like Uh facebook has has facilitated a genocide in Myanmar and other places. They've been very irresponsible And I would say as a platform. They have a responsibility to eliminate It is a private organization. They can and they have a responsibility to do so As I said, if they're a private organization, they can do what they wish and you know what Megan once Our uh Burlington telecom lost Al Jazeera and was sold to a private company. Guess what happened censorship And they're allowed to do it because it's a private organization. They immediately got all canadian programs off So what that so There's the issue of censorship. There's the issue of um meeting the needs of You know helping to protect marginalized communities, which I think is where you're going with what's hate speech and what's not hate speech And how do you define that? and I think there's a I think This is where we get into that question marina of for you, I guess is In whose hands do we leave the definition of of Having to define speech. Are you brought up? I don't I don't use the government. I don't want that's not where I am I'm governments can go come and go and I'm not in the business of supporting them one way or the other I want to defend my community and when you organize to take away my rights when you organize to say, you know Someone under 22 should not get gender affirming care Then I have a problem that is not just hate speech that is Stepping on the pyramid of genocide and trying to remove our health care rights And uh, that's where I do. I mean, yeah, there's governments that I can talk about how poland doesn't allow Uh speech that would create religious strife or Or uh, how france will penalize people but in the end I'm not a lawyer. I am not a government. I am an activist who who stands up for marginalized communities So if you're coming up again if you're talking about coming up against migrants And I can be there. I will fight you and that may be physical if I have to If you're going to say you're going to shut down a clinic abortion clinic I'm going to come there and I'm going to put my body in between there and I have uh One of the lambs of christ came to philly and I believe it was 89 with their seven city seat That became a militant fight. We weren't talking about what the government or what the constitution did We were fighting for people's rights and that clinic. Congratulations. So So, thank you So so again bring it back to something like cctv, which you know does receive some government funds, but but Still is in that gray area is able we are able to shut our doors if we want or not Who are you really is that true? Do you know it's been I think it's been tested in the new york circuit court of appeals I You know, I'm not a lawyer. I know. I don't know either Yeah, it was tested around Manhattan neighborhood network Because they shut out some producers at one point and the they shut out some producers who were critical of the station And then those folks took them to court and the court said The station had the right to shut them out um the I guess my question one of the things that we struggle here with here both practically and kind of legally is how you define That and what we would do in that situation. So when we see somebody making programming that folks identify as dangerous hurtful harmful, etc. What we've always said is Let's find other programming to counter that right or let's invite folks or let's add disclaimers So that folks know that this programming is made and may or may not you know conform to social norms or social expectations, etc. But how do you How do you define it when you see it and where does that responsibility lie? Well, we can talk about what happened in middlebury I mean, I I do not believe that I believe what charles murray stands for and does You might have to start from the big charles murray is a white supremacist who is a kind of a Darling of the of the conservative right he talks about race differences his fave famous book is called the bell curve Which argues that black people are not as intelligent as white people and should not be Given affirmative action or any Help at all because they need to be filtered to the bottom of society. And that's the way it should be he came to Middlebury there was a horrible protest against him The the thing that the compromise position that was not taken in the hot the college from my understanding There's a lot of the people who organized against murray Would have been all right if he actually had a knowledgeable person to debate and to counter his ideas but he was allowed to Present what I would argue are genocidal ideas unopposed And you know the there I do not believe in in Platforming fascists of any sort But the compromise here would be to Say, okay, you want to come on the shelf fine, but you're gonna have to be Opposed that's what you said no Right. Yeah. I mean I think that's sort of one of our policies I mean You know and just to call it a policy. It's pretty loose But again, I think I'm trying to get at how do you define and in that case? I think I remember this and I I would support I mean personally whether that means anything. I think it's supported legally also the right of folks to protest a speaker at any time and um to You know to put their mind to put their bodies between the mic if they want to shut that speech down I think what we're talking about specifically here is Where who has the right to shut down speech when and where? and so public organizations do not If they're funded by the government Then as I said about Al Jazeera and man That was considered a hate network by many people In fact, there were huge hearings as you recall all over Burlington Led by me. I organized those hearings to keep Al Jazeera English on the air We won that fight based on free speech principles It had been defined by many people throughout this country as hate speech Whether you agreed with that or not that was what many people said and that it threatened Particularly Jewish people Al Jazeera English threatened Jewish people Nevertheless because Al Jazeera English was part of Burlington telecom A government institution We were allowed and we won that fight to keep it on the air because of free speech And I would do it again Any time is questioned now he this person marina has called me he I'm sorry. He she I'm sorry marina. Let's call you by your name marina argues that He has to she has the right to shut everything down because she is a private organization. That's fine Right. Yeah, I'm just pausing for a minute um I think we're still not getting To the place of I think we're still not getting to the place of sometimes there are things that are said that you just want To go away. Well, I would say I would say that you know, I would say hate speech is the beginning of Of genocide everyone who spits who who studies it says it starts with slurs Then it starts with people trying to go in the government to discriminate against people Then it goes to violence then it goes to killing and then the final stage is denial So where do you interrupt it? Yeah, I guess that's the question. Where do you interrupt it? When you start hearing slurs like, you know, the k word for jewish people or Uh Tranny for people like me. This is not something that's just speech This is the beginning of what will be uh, uh, a Transbashing for me or or if I get uh, you know attacked for being jewish, you know, these are not these are not harmless This is the beginning of what will is the Pyramid to genocide. I don't I'm not a lawyer. I am not the government. I don't know where to draw the line But but as as as as an anti fascist I stand up against that when somebody starts saying you should you should eliminate transgenderism As michael nowles did in at c-pack. He wants he doesn't want to eliminate transgenderism as a as a As a abstract concept. He wants to eliminate me from public life He wants to eliminate my health care and my bones depend on Some hormones or they will get weak And that's what what what michael pence has done. Vivek ramaswamy wants to eliminate all trans care And they are using they're they're gone beyond just speech and opinion They are organizing to harm my community and this is where I fight I think that I think this is where I think for us This is where we're struggling as an organization that really cares about people and cares about the community that we're in and believes and I understand and believe that when you cut down speech for one person you open the door to Cutting down speech and and often you're hurting marginalized communities when you limit free speech More than you're going to hurt Non-marginalized well, it's like it's like what happened in in in but I there's a chance to respond to something Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead What marina said was her opinion Her opinion is that this speech causes violence if you prove that there was violence That's a crime The speech is not a crime balderdash Protocols Killed thousands of people right the turner diaries have provoked what happened in oklahoma city with a bombing and provoked multiple other things I don't I don't add a miles felt proven Well, the the people the peep person who blew up oklahoma city federal building Was inspired by the turner diaries and said so Okay, so that then so you don't you don't have a you don't see a line between no not unless you prove it If this is well, I mean it's been We're not gonna prove it. We're not no it has not when it's proven then it's proven Sandy what I'm saying is we're not gonna prove it here. I think I know that I know that I understand that I mean if there's a concept called stochastic terrorism I start saying things against this group trans people are are Attacking people in win in in bathrooms. They're dangerous or as the council of conservative citizens Formerly this consents council of white citizens You look at their webpage all it is is black people that committed some crime and they the ccc In spite, I'm sorry. I don't know what the ccc is the council of conservative citizens If you don't know about them, I'm explaining it. Thank you They they it's the outgrowth of the council of white citizens from the 60s, which I'm sure you're unfortunately familiar It was it was organized by Gordon Baum both organizations This propaganda that has been put out by the ccc inspired dylan roof And the same stuff comes out from if you look at the lgb alliance you look at the some of the other Anti-trans groups. It's the same stuff. You just you just take black people and you place it with trans people Well, no, I've already said my opinion about this I get it. There's an idea about we have to prove Prove the relationship and this is like this is a conversation that's gone on, right? So yeah, who was it? Gore who put the stickers on the the warning labels on um music Tipper gore the music uh because it was going to cause League yeah, it was going to cause violence. So this this we're not going to solve whether this But the and I and I hear you about there's a difference between physical violence and or threats threats but But I don't think we can deny and there is an idea that That language can deny someone's humanity and that that is a kind of violence And my question to you all you said two things. Yeah One language can deny people's humanity. I agree with that It's language when in fact it does hurt that human being. It's a crime got it So regardless of whether it's a crime or it's hurtful We as community members Want to take Want to want to take some sort of step towards solving that, right? So It's long been supposed the violence supposed it's long It's long been supposed that violence starts with speech right that you dehumanize someone And you make a good soldier Right who can you dehumanize with any of this? So don't say why you don't have to you don't have to agree I think it's your organizers Organization is constantly the lgb alliance is constantly dehumanizing trans people. I don't have any organization You you you said you would be uh willing to be falker's uh Uh consultant on the very show I watched it. I'm his attorney. Okay so so I guess this is the this is and we're probably not going to solve it today is that You know, this is where we get to the question of what do we do as community members? Who live and work and and are here together? What do we do as community members? Whether it's on a legal side, whether it's on an organizing side to Try to put us to try to put a stopper in the place where speech becomes Harmful to other folks. I say more speech. That's what I really say I'm not going to really alter that opinion. What I'll say what I'll say conversation You know what the word conversation to me means with verse People should always be countering speech with more speech and with conversation And I I doubt if I'm going to change that opinion very easily What one thing I would like to say before the end of this conversation Speech Hate speech is a lot like radioactivity. I release 10 curies of iodine 131 over Burlington It's a horrible thing some sort of nuclear accident happened Cancer goes up 10 percent But I can't prove any particular person got cancer from this particular incident this is one of the things that Mindless Pro-nuclear people I am pro-nuclear but people who are mindless in it Like to say you can't prove that this person got cancer from being near Three Mile Island But there's an increase of Of cancer near Three Mile Island when you have hate speech It's very much like spewing radioactivity. You cannot necessarily Draw a straight line or prove it pedantically like you might in court But as humans we have to realize Releasing poison into the environment whether it be A strontium 131 from a nuclear bomb tested in in the desert or Constantly talking Dehumanizing speech. Yes. The both of these are toxic and both of these have the potential to kill. Can you prove a straight line? Association between them. No, you can't but as as a society we have to make Draw a line. So you would have an organization like CCTV limit or Or shut down that speech Yes, and then so that's where I come from or at the very least have it directly Opposed if if you can't do it if you if you are saying that's exactly what I'm saying More conversation more conversation. Yes So the conversation So what is the next conversation? What do you see as the next conversation from? I don't see another conversation about about free speech on this. I'm not I'm not Generally a debater. What I do is I I do public records requests. I write articles rarely This isn't where I this isn't my um thing, but I find people who are causing harm like Certain fascists that used to live in enosburg and I expose them. We're talking about a neo-nazi. I try to expose them That's what I do. That's my activism. Yeah, that's your free speech. That's good that you exercise your free speech to do that Sandy how about you? What do you see is there more conversation to be had? I always have conversations. You know that more than anybody But what about here? I mean, I feel like I just what I said, I'd have conversations here in public like I'm doing Do you feel like this is useful to the public? Do you feel like do you feel like this conversation we've had here is useful? I don't know. We'll have to ask the public I I really although I would argue marina's right to word to Throw around words like fascist I don't like that I find that hate speech nonsense nonsense I would not limit it and I think we should just have more and more conversations when somebody calls themselves a fascist They are a fascist. I mean the person I'm speaking about in in enosburg Is a member of patriot front and they are quite proudly a fascist so I can call them a fascist I'm not slurring anyone. I'm not arguing anything about it. You have because you are exercising your free speech To utter hateful words about other people the poor nazis. I'm sorry sandy This comes from an organization that sprung from net vanguard america which killed heather higher in charlotte'sville. Thank you sandy Poor poor vanguard america poor patriot front so You're the victim. We may be ending on a on a hot note No, we're not not to me. You're not Rending on an insulting note to me. But as you know, I can do that easily. Well It's let's go in all different directions But I I want to say that I appreciate both of you. Thank you for coming today and participating And I'm I'm sorry that we didn't get you know, we can't solve We never will We will not accept if we really have clear Yeah I think loyalty to the u.s. Constitution Yeah, that's what I have and I always will The constitution has been interpreted in many ways before brandonburg It was free speech was restricted entirely And and there may be decisions in the past that will they will interpret it differently that don't include Hate speech Well, we're going to strive to have a couple more conversations specifically around free speech I think there are other conversations that are still That are still yet To be there's going to be politics There's a lot of going to be free speech controversies coming up about this war. Yeah In israel and we'll probably be standing on the same side on that one sandi All right. Thank you both for coming don't don't get up without taking off your mics. Yeah Really appreciate it Thank you, marina. Thank you