 Hey folks, welcome to the podcast. Today I had a chat with a guy called Thomas Hosler. It was actually Dr. Thomas Hosler who's a lecturer and researcher at Manchester Metropolitan University. And we talked about ASMR. So for those that don't know, it's Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response, which is that little tingling sensation you get back of your head in response to certain stimuli, sounds, and all of that stuff. So really interesting and very popular on YouTube. So we talked about what it is, what research has been going on, how it benefits people, advertising, and so forth. So I hope you enjoy it. Hey, it's Lewis. Welcome to the podcast. Enjoy our conversations anytime, anywhere. Cool, and we're live. Thanks for coming down to see me. No problem. So you came down from Manchester. Yeah, awesome. So what is your background? I'm a lecturer in psychology at Manchester Metropolitan University, MMU. Been there for a couple of years. Before that, I did a PhD in psychology at the University of Sheffield. And then before that, undergrad degree in psychology at Leeds. Nice, nice. So you've always wanted to be academic research? I think pretty much, yeah. Both of my parents are academics. I think after I did my undergrad degree, I took a year out to just try a few things, yeah, and then decided I wanted to get back into it. Nice, nice. And so what research do you do? What are you covering? So at the minute, various things. Most of it at the minute I'm doing on ASMR, some stuff on mixed emotions as well, some stuff on... My PhD was in prospective memory. Which is? So how people remember how to do things in the future, or when to do things in the future. I like it, brilliant, brilliant. And then it migrated then to ASMR? Well, the ASMR sort of came out of nowhere, to be honest. It might be just worth telling people what ASMR is and what it stands for. So just give some context. So ASMR stands for autonomous sensory meridian response. And it's, I guess the phrase itself actually refers to the feeling or the sensation, which is a kind of pleasant tingling sensation. So it usually starts at the top of your head and kind of goes down your neck and shoulders. Kind of similar to goosebumps, I guess, but subtly different. Okay. And quite a pleasant sensation. And people get this in response to triggers such as people whispering, people talking very softly and kind of enunciating the words that they say. And there's also sort of an element of this kind of close personal attention, I guess. So like, people often get it when, say, someone's giving them a haircut or things like, you know, like arrive at a hotel or something and the receptionist is like, okay, so what room number was it? Oh, just keep looking up. And they're kind of, you know, giving you this kind of expert personal attention. Yeah, yeah. And these triggers trigger this feeling called ASMR. Interesting. And it could be other things, could it be visual as well as auditory? Yeah, so I guess it's a combination of all those things, right? So the auditory, yeah, seems to be something to do with like the whispering and the particular kind of crisp sounds. So as well as people enunciating their words like that, you can trigger it through kind of crisp sounds like tapping fingernails. Okay. People kind of running their hand along a comb where it goes... Yeah, yeah. Hair. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. Yeah. And then I guess the personal attention expert thing, people doing very expert things with their hands, say like, you know, modeling something or crafting something or... Oh wow, that's visual. That's really visual. Yeah, but I guess, you know, it's all, it comes as a package, I guess. So it's all these things sort of together. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's not just any time someone whispers, you get ASMR or any time you hear tapping or see someone doing something. It seems to be like this interplay between all these different... So there's a trigger and then you have this ASMR response. Yeah, you get ASMR. And so how did you arrive at researching this and had it become a... Well, so... A topic of interest. So it was when I was doing my PhD in Sheffield, which was on, yeah, something completely different really, you know, memory. And I was out with some fellow PhD students and these are the ones who I worked on, the paper that we published with. Julia Puario, Emma Blakey and Theresa Valtry. And Jules, I think, you know, came up to me who were out with the PhD students. He was like, oh, Tom, if you... You know, this is gonna sound weird, but have you ever heard of ASMR? And I said, no, you know. But then when she described that sensation to me, you know, oh, well, you know, do you ever get this kind of tingling feeling when you hear, you know, when someone gives you a haircut away, you know? And I was like, yeah, I do. Well, you know, not that often, but definitely when I was a kid more as well, I was like, oh, yeah. You know, I didn't think anyone else in the world... So it's an actual thing that you are really conscious that you got? I think you would know if you got it. Yeah, yeah. Obviously there's sort of different degrees to the extent that people get it, but it seems to be, some people get it and some people don't. And interestingly, that reaction that I had of, oh, I didn't think anyone else get, you know, got this, is quite common. And it seems to be when you tell people about it, either they think, oh, I thought I was the only person in the world who got that, or they think, oh, yeah, you know, doesn't everyone get that? Yeah, yeah. There's quite a lot of skepticism there as well. Yeah. It seems to be. I guess that's from the people who don't get it. Just do it, yeah. And anyway, when Jules mentioned this to me, she said, oh, you know, have you heard of it? And I was like, no. She said, oh, we want to do, you know, I want to do a piece of research into it. And actually at that time, it was still sort of, I guess, like an underground internet subculture, especially in the last couple of years, it's kind of almost got mainstream. But there was no, I think there was one kind of scientific paper published on it, but very like under-research. Yeah, yeah, perfect. It's kind of a good opportunity to do something really interesting and novel. Amazing. And so, and so this was what, like five years ago or so? Yeah, this must, yeah, four or five. Fine, and then so you joined Manchester Met and then started your research there? Yeah, so we did, me, Jules kind of led the project and then me, her, Emma and Theresa kind of did this piece of research into ASMR, sort of in our spare time when we were PhD students. Oh, okay, fine, right. And got that published. And then since I've become a lecturer, I guess I'm paid to do. And that's pretty good, so. Great. So what have you actually researched to date and what are you currently doing on it? So the first paper that was published on ASMR, Not By Us, although actually by one of my colleagues at MMU, Nick, Nick Davis and Emma Barrett, they just did a basic kind of survey into people who watch ASMR videos, sort of what does it feel like? Why do you watch them? What are the kind of things that trigger your ASMR? So what we wanted to do is see, but there was inevitably some skepticism sort of around it saying, well, how do you know if people say, oh, I get the stinging feeling or feel relaxed, how do you know they actually are feeling that? Yeah, yeah. So we wanted to do an experiment where we actually got people sort of into the lab, got them to watch an ASMR video or a few videos and then measured their physiological responses, so heart rate, breathing rate, skin conductance, which is the sort of kind of sweaty palms feeling, and these were measures of general physiological arousal. And we found that the people who got ASMR when they were watching the ASMR videos, they showed larger decreases in heart rate and increases in skin conductance than the people who didn't get ASMR. Interesting. So this sort of shows, I guess that it's somewhat of, like it is a real thing in terms of people are reporting feeling different, but there's actually that their physiological measures are showing that something is actually happening as well. And then did you also share them non-SMR videos and measures? Yes, like a controlled condition, yeah. So it was only the ASMR people who got ASMR who watched ASMR videos that showed the biggest decreases. Okay, fine. And then people who said they didn't get ASMR, they also didn't get it when they were watching. No, I think, I mean, I think they decreased slightly, but there's obviously going to be some effect of just sitting quietly in a room watching a kind of relaxing video, but the people who reported actually getting the tingling sensation showed bigger decreases as well. Great. And so you released that paper to say that they were physical. Yeah, we published that last August. And that was your first paper on ASMR that you published? Great. And where's it going to now? So you've kind of, is it accepted now that ASMR is a thing? Well, I guess there's more evidence to it and there's more people who are researching it now. But compared to, there's probably a dozen, maybe less like papers published on it. So it's still not necessarily, you sort of need a large body of evidence to really kind of prove that something exists. But it does seem to be more people, researching it and publishing on it, which is quite exciting obviously in the sort of, I guess it's a snowball effect, like the more that you gets out there, the more other people get interested in it. Definitely. And increases. But you've kind of established a measurable effect on the body? Yeah. Than that. And do you know what happens and what's actually happening in the brain that causes that response? Well, not really, no. That's one of the most interesting questions really, is sort of why, what does it happen? There's some interesting stuff about other kind of forms of tingling, which is to do with your sort of brain's attention on its own inter-receptive signals. So like your brain is constantly getting information from inside your body about sort of what's happening, but usually it's not, you're not consciously aware of it. So there's a theory that tingling is some way of, when your brain kind of becomes, puts its attention on these signals in a particular way, that's when you experience tingling. So can you make yourself do that? So interestingly, there seems to be a sort of subset of people who can deliberately trigger like ASMR without any external influence. That can kind of make themselves tingle. And that's measurable. Well, we're not sure how to measure that. Right, right, right. That's not something we've looked at specifically. But people self-report, a subset of people self-report being able to do that, which is quite interesting. They're very, our mind's powerful. Super powerful. And this is, ASMR, it regarded as a therapeutic. So this is almost where the, you have to get the definition straight, because ASMR itself refers to the feeling, right? And this can be caused by any sort of everyday instances of people like that, example of a receptionist checking you in or going to get a haircut. But it's really kind of come to the public consciousness through the YouTube videos, right? The ASMR videos. They get millions, like millions, millions. So basically, what sort of happened is that when people started initially talking about this feeling online, there was a blog post called the unnamed feeling where someone said, oh, I get this weird tingling sensation when in certain circumstances and other people like, oh, I get this as well. And they gave it a name, ASMR. Yeah, and when was this? How long ago? This must have been about 2009, I think. But so once they had a name, you could talk about it with other people. And then people like, well, how can I say, maybe we could, people go, oh, when I watch this particular YouTube video, I get the sensation as well. And there's examples of stuff going back to the 80s, like the Bob Ross videos. And I don't know them. Okay, this guy called Bob Ross, he did a sort of how to paint series. Okay, yeah. In like the late 80s, early 90s. And sort of purely by chance, his videos are really ASMR triggering because he's got this kind of quite soft voice and you can hear the kind of scratching sounds of his paintbrush on the canvas. And there's loads of ASMR triggers in there. And people sort of saying, oh, when I watch this video, it gives me ASMR. So then the next logical step is, well, you could deliberately make videos to trigger ASMR by putting all these triggers in them. Ah, okay. And they're the things that become really popular. And then from that, people said, well, I don't just watch these videos because it sort of feels nice, but because people find that it helps decrease their symptoms of depression and anxiety and helps them relax. And in particular, it's sort of really interesting when it helps people get to sleep. Yeah, yeah. So that's where the idea of the therapeutic thing comes in because people are saying, well, yeah, are we using these videos for that purpose? Yeah, I spoke to it when we'd agreed to do this. I spoke to a few people about ASMR because I hadn't really, I didn't know much about it. And both people I spoke to were like, oh my God, I have insomnia. And the only thing that gets me to sleep is watching ASMR videos. And I had no idea. People didn't talk about it. No, not really. It's not something like go down the pub and be like, hey, guess what? And so then you start speaking to people more about it and you start looking at the videos. And it's interesting. It seems to really work. Well, that's the thing, right? You know, it's not just kind of, it's interesting to do research on it purely from a, it's a weird sensation sort of angle. But also there's this whole thing, well, actually, loads of people are using it for this purpose. And I mean, there's arguably a lot more unhealthy ways to help yourself get to sleep. Well, if you're not drinking drugs and stuff like that. So in that respect, if it works, then it could be a match. No, it's powerful. You're using your mind or stimuli to stimulate some parts of your brain, I guess. And all you need is a YouTube account, right? Or like something you can watch YouTube videos. Well, technology is working again. Crazy. The interesting thing, and I don't know if you're starting to research it, is that actually how does it work and what parts of the brain, why does it have that effect? I mean, there's a few theories. There's one theory that it's sort of something to do with like from evolutionary psychology, like a grooming thing. What do you mean? So you know, like how chimpanzees groom each other for lights and parasites and stuff. There's a theory that well, maybe ASMR is almost like a kind of evolutionary kind of hangover from that because presumably, if you get this kind of pleasurable sensation from kind of being groomed, that would be an incentive to do it and to do it to other people as well. So that's one interesting kind of idea behind it. Another bit of research that started to go on is looking at ASMR and misophonia. What's that? So misophonia, it's a similar thing, but it's when you really hate certain sounds. I like scratching chalk on the board so more like eating sounds. So some people, the sound of other people eating drives them crazy. Like, you know, you might say, well, it's not pleasant people chewing with their mouth open, but some people really, really drives them crazy, like to the point where, you know, they almost get like shaking with anger and have to leave the room. And it's called misophonia. And, you know, there was an original idea that maybe ASMR is like the opposite of misophonia. If some people get a pleasant tingling sensation from it and some people get, you know, a horrible sensation from it. But then this recently search, which has found that people who get ASMR also tend to get misophonia. Oh, wow. So maybe it's something actually to do with a more general kind of sensitivity to sound that is like stimulating, you know, different parts of the brain. Interesting if this is developed over time or if it's kind of genetic or mixture of both. Yeah, I had to say really. Fascinating. And then are you doing any new research at the moment in it, or what's? So I'm doing a bit looking, one of my undergraduate students, Emma Schofield, did her dissertation project on it. And she's looking at, yeah, the links between ASMR, misophonia and different triggers to see, because although broadly, there's similar triggers like whispering, tapping, these sorts of things, different people respond to different ones. So we're trying to look a little bit about how people respond to different kinds of triggers. Nice. And actually I've got a link to that study online. Oh, definitely. Yeah, we'll share it after. Because you need some people who don't get ASMR to respond to it as well. I'll find, we'll put that out when we release the podcast and we'll get you some respondents, definitely. How is it being used in advertising? Because this is where it started to get really powerful, right? Yeah, this is where it's sort of gone mainstream, right? Like the Super Bowl halftime ad. Yeah, yeah. I read somewhere that people pay like the $39 million per 30 seconds of advert or something. And the most recent Super Bowl, this beer company made an ASMR video as their advert. So it's like broadcast ASMR to like a huge... Did they say it was ASMR? Yeah, I just said that. So it was, it obviously looked like an ASMR video as well. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Like, you know, Kravitz or someone in it was like, you know, doing the voice and they have like the beer bottle kind of like rolling around the table and the sound, you know, really crisp. I mean, I think with the advertising, it's tempting to be like, ooh, you know, maybe when you're getting ASMR and you're getting all these pleasurable tingles, it puts you into some kind of hypnotic state where you're then susceptible to buying beer or adverts. But I really think it's more just to do with, you know, they're so different to the kind of classic adverts that really, you know, allow an exciting and brash that people find them interesting and want to watch them. And the other clever thing is that, you know, people seek out videos to trigger their ASMR but they're not particularly seeking them out for the particular content in them. It's just, it triggers your ASMR. Yeah, yeah. So like that Bob Ross example, right? They're not watching it because they like shows about painting. They're watching it to trigger their ASMR. So it means if you make an advert of it, you're going to get loads of people watching it, not because they're interested in beer or adverts, but because they just want to get ASMR from it. Yeah. But then they'll buy the beer as well. Well, I mean, I guess if you're watching the advert, you're probably seeping into subconscious that it exists. But would you also feel more of an emotional attachment, do you think, to something that has made you feel really nice and tingling and relaxing? Yeah, ASMR is a pleasurable, you know, sensation. So it might, well, we'll do that. And I mean, the other thing is that, you know, when you normally like watching an advert on your phone or whatever, you know, you're doing your best to kind of skip it as soon as it comes on. Yeah. And you're not really paying attention to it. But when you're watched, when people watch ASMR videos, you know, they want to get really engrossed in it. They put their, you know, best headphones on, sort of sit in a quiet room and pay really close attention to the video. And that's like an advertiser's dream, right? You know, for people to spend that much attention on their advert. Massively. And there's an example, it's like the Ikea did an ASMR advert as well. She's like 30 minutes long. 30 minutes? Yeah. I haven't seen this either. Yeah. And people are watching this 30 minute video to get ASMR. And it's like a 30 minute advert for Ikea. I mean, they can be watching it in their Ikea couch with the Ikea Pillies. Yeah. So the gilder and the voiceover in that is like, you know, oh, you know, feel this, you know, lovely soft, you know, sheets or duvet cover from Ikea, like only $29, $99. But obviously, like, you know, for the advertising company to get people to sit down for half an hour and watch, essentially, an advert is great for them. But also it must be, I don't know if you've ever heard it, anyone has a stats, but it must be so many people watching these videos to make it worth their while, paying to do a 30 minute advert. I mean, crazy. Yeah. And some of the videos have got, you know, millions of views and the top ASMR artists have got, you know, hundreds of thousands of subscribers. Wow. And, you know, the best ones are like, like YouTube celebrities, really. That's their full time. There's a lady. I can't remember her name is. The one that was just read. Yeah, that's it. So yeah, we met her. I think she used to sort of work in a law firm or something like PR or something. Oh, right. So I'm making these videos. And then, you know, they're so popular and she can make enough money out of advertising on them that there's a full time job now. Day job? Yeah. She's got a little studio and a garden and... She, English. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. It's so powerful. I mean, also with like Facebook and all these things with facial recognition and stuff, they're probably doing it now, but what's starting more is to read your emotions and how you emotionally respond to whatever it might be that you're looking at. And then along with the ASMR and I mean, all these things are just... Yeah. I mean, you've got no hope. And if it become, you know, I guess it is so popular that the, you know, the commercial side of it as well is only likely to grow. Like I heard that, you know, some company was like making headphones, particularly for use when you're watching ASMR videos, you know, because there's an audience out there who would buy that probably. Yeah. Do you feel then as if someone's using ASMR or getting ASMR specifically because they're using it for insomnia and all this kind of stuff, but then you have companies exploiting the fact that they know you get this feeling when does that marry up or is it kind of bad taste a little bit? I guess it's like an inevitable consequence of the capitalist society there, isn't it? Like from what I've heard, you know, from interviews with ASMR artists, like the people who make the videos, they're sort of, you know, always resigned to it and say, well, you know, I guess if it... I guess at the end of the day, they can still go on making the videos for free and making money off it through advertising. Yeah, well, you can watch YouTube. The stuff goes on around you and you can't stop it, so... Yeah, no, true. You know, with the adverts, for instance, you know, they're not exactly competing with them because people's triggers are so kind of idiosyncratic themselves is that, you know, even if you're sort of a young ASMR artist making these videos on a budget in your bedroom, there might be some people who find your particular video is the most triggering and so would watch them even if there's like a company producing, you know, a million pound budget, great ASMR videos there. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Is there anyone, if anyone, anyone for people to speak to for more information on how it's working for them? Well, because it feels like they stumble across it just to help that nothing else has worked. I guess like the main way that it sort of grows in the ASMR community, if you want to call it that, the biggest one I know of is on Reddit. So there's an ASMR Reddit where people post, you know, their favorite videos, but also, you know, do discussions about it as well. So I take people to check out there. And I think once you've found a sort of particular, you know, if there's a particular trigger that triggers your ASMR, the ASMR Reddit is quite good because people would tag their videos with the different triggers. Oh, okay. Or this one's a tapping one or this one's, you know, something else. Have they been useful for you, for your research? Are they getting involved? Yeah, so we've recruited a lot of sort of ASMR people from Reddit and from those kind of, I think there's probably some like Facebook groups as well where people talk about it and check. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what do you think the future directions or uses will be for ASMR? So I mean, it seems to, I think definitely like the commercial side of it will grow sort of inevitably if there's money to be made out of it. But I think, you know, looking into the therapeutic aspects of it is going to be really interesting. And you know, you don't want to overblow anything at the minute because the research is obviously in an early stage. So I don't want to go making any grand claims to cure your depression or whatever. But, you know, I would say that if people are, you know, haven't explored ASMR at all yet, you know, why not like give it a go, search for some videos. If you know that you, if you listen to this and you're sort of thinking, you know, I kind of sometimes get a feeling that's a bit like that, but I'm not sure if it's ASMR or not. You know, go on YouTube and have a look at some different kinds of videos and see if there is one or a certain type of one that does trigger it. And if it does, you know, help you relax or whatever, then as I said, like it's healthier than a lot of other ways that people will. Well, if you'd have to take any drugs, I mean, for sure. And to help you make some insomnia, depression, anxiety, relaxing. So, yeah. Do you think the health, do you think the health kind of route commercial and all these health aspects will start to? I'd be interested to see it. Like you can just look at the way that, you know, mindfulness is sort of blown up as a thing, right? Like 10, well, yeah, probably 10, 15 years ago, meditation in general was sort of a bit of a kooky hippie thing. And now it's mindfulness is basically like, you know, standard, you know, apps and everything for it. So I could sort of see ASMR kind of go in the same way. Is that an alternative medicine? Yeah. Maybe breaking into mainstream. Maybe your GP will forward some links for you. Well, I mean, like, yeah, it's hard to say, really. Interesting. And then, and what about just the last thing on, on like funding for research? Are you finding commercial businesses or companies are starting to be interested in? So I know if a few, a few people have researchers in ASMR have kind of been approached by companies who want to know more about the triggers and how, you know, how to make ASMR videos. I think that, you know, the academic funding for it, that's something that we would hopefully start seeing the next few years because, but it's difficult because, you know, the funders don't want to fund something too off the wall because essentially most scientific research is funded by, you know, the government and the tax payers indirectly. So they don't want to throw it at some kooky crazy alternative thing and then it turns out to be rubbish. So once you've got to publish a certain amount of papers, I guess I'd just like, yeah, once there's this kind of critical mass of stuff suggesting, look, even if we don't know if this 100% works, there's enough to suggest that it's worth doing a kind of proper, really well-funded, well-run study to investigate it first. So obviously, yeah, some of it, I just hope. Great, I absolutely hope it comes to you. And is there anyone else in other countries doing the like pockets of... Yeah, I know that there's a couple of research groups in Canada and America who publish some stuff on it and then a couple in the UK as well. But science and sort of scientific publishing moves at such a slower pace compared to the rest of the world that... No, I know, also it takes, for a new idea or something new like this, it seems to take science and the community a long time to accept it and then to fund it and... I mean, I could do a whole other podcast on science publishing, if you want to, but as an example, we conducted that study, what, four years ago, probably took us a year from initially submitting the manuscript to the journal to actually seeing it in print. A year? Yeah. Which journal did you... I suppose it's in plus one, it's called. Okay. So it's like a multidisciplinary... Fine. Why so long? Just the, you know, you submit it, it goes off for peer review, they come back, they say make these changes and the whole peer review process like that and the editor who takes your manuscripts and then passes it on and then coordinates everything. Essentially, they're kind of part-time... And I guess, and who's peer reviewing? Just other... Other academics. So many other universities around that would... Yeah, who've got sort of, you know, I imagine the person who peer-reviewed Ard has some expertise in physiological measures, probably, and some expertise in, you know, some of the sensory phenomenon. Yeah. And it's one person that peers reviews. Use it to, use it to peer reviews, yeah. We need to speed things up. Yeah. We need to get the funding over, we need to crack on. There's a whole load of... I mean, I think science is getting better for that, to be honest, I think. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. That's cool. And where can people find you if they want to get in touch and either participate in a study or find out more? Yeah, I mean... Social media and... Yeah, social media at Tom Hossler on Twitter or te.hossler.mmu.ac.uk. Okay. So, you can address. Awesome. But one thing we're hoping to sort of do in the next is get some funding. We're gonna submit a bid to sort of start an ASMR research network. Nice. And one of the things we want to do as part of that is make a website that kind of coordinates all this information on ASMR and gives people the opportunity to participate in studies and studies. Brilliant. Oh, that'd be really cool. Yeah. Really cool. How far away are you from doing that? I think we're gonna submit the funding in June, July. Okay. And not far. And do you have a Facebook group? Did you mention Facebook or someone else's? I think there are ASMR Facebook groups in general. I'm not sure what they're called. Fine. So your website will be your hub for all of the staff and the research. And that'd be really cool. Well, thanks so much for coming in. Yeah, no problem. And next podcast on scientific publishing. Yeah. Cool. Thanks a lot. Hey, folks. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places.