 Nigerian journalists deserve better deals, says the National Human Rights Commission. And, on the issue of zoning, there have been calls for South Presidency, and that has intensified. Well, this is Plus Politics at Diane Mary Anacon. The National Human Rights Commission has said that Nigerian journalists deserve a better deal in the discharge of their constitutional duties. According to them, the press which battled hard to return Nigeria to its current democratic status and continues to struggle to sustain democracy and development has to be supported in order to successfully execute its constitutional duties as the society's watchdog. Now, the International Press Centre, the IPC on the occasion of this year's World Press Freedom Day, also joined the global community to raise concerns about the press freedom violations. Well, joining us to discuss this and more is Wemimo Ademi. She is a broadcast journalist, and she's the host of Table Talk on 99.3, Nigerian fellow Lagos. And also joining us is Suni Dada. He's the head free expression and pluralism Institute for Media and Society, and he's also a Rotary Peace Fellow. Thank you very much, gentlemen and lady for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to start with you, Suni, before I go to Wemimo. Can you say for certain that Nigeria is a press-free country? Now, I'm asking this question because you have travelled to other countries as a journalist, and you have seen how media is being practiced in other countries, comparing Nigeria to other countries on the continent. How free can you say that the press, the average pressman is? Well, thank you. Excuse me, thank you, Miriana, and once again, good evening to your audience. There are a number of issues regarding press freedom in Nigeria, especially when you compare the practice, the way it is done in other clans, like you said. But the summary is that we are still not free. There are a number of factors. We're going to be looking at factors such as factors that have to do with the practice environment and the legal environment. Within the legal environment, we still have policies, we still have laws that continue to interfere or continue to deplete freedom of expression. Laws continue to gag the press. Laws continue to stand as hindrances to access information and even free expression. Within the practice environment, we still have issues that has to do with safety of journalists. We're still content with issues that has to do with welfare of journalists, you know, and all of that. So when you put all of this together, you see that we are very, very far from being free. We've seen what's happened in several countries in terms of journalists. I mean, let's still stay within the African continent. We've seen journalists being jailed in Egypt. We've seen journalists being jailed in some parts of Central Africa, in South Africa, East Africa, even in West Africa. And we've also seen the media somewhat not, you know, run the stories of happenings within their domain, within Africa. But in Nigeria, we still see the media reporting on certain things, although we're still asking for a level of freedom. Now let's talk about the management of our media space. In the past few months, even last year, we've seen several bills come out in terms of how the media should be managed. We saw the social media bill. We saw the media bill. A lot of water under the bridge as of today. How do you think that we as journalists and even the Nigerian people that we broadcast, including also the Fourth Estate of the Realm, have been able to influence the management of the media in Nigeria? Well, I'm happy that you have made a reference to the regulatory framework. What you just talked about has to do with the regulatory framework. For instance, do you note that there is still an amendment proposal to the National Broadcasting Commission Act, the NBC Act, the National Assembly, and there is a provision in that proposal that talks about digital access. Now, this digital access says that once the amendment becomes a law, that every Nigerian will have to pay for digital broadcast content. Now, that is not the challenge. The challenge is that the money that will be generated from that payment will be shared among three tiers. The signal distributor, the regulator, which is NBC, and national broadcast entities. Now, the signal distributor will take 40%. The regulator will take 40%. The national broadcasting entities will share 10%, 10%. Who are the national broadcasting entities? The FRCN and the NTA. So it means that even though Nigerians can access your content plus TV content, you will not have any rights. You will not have any share of the money they are going to pay. So there is a systematic strangulation of the private broadcast media. That is as represented by Ibone, the broadcast organization of Nigeria. So then again, there are also challenges with the regulator when you talk about regulatory independence and the financial independence. All of these things are elements of control mechanism on the broadcast industry. Even if you look at the Proposed NPC Act, but I don't want to go there now because there is so much focus on the broadcast sector. So the regulatory independence, for instance, that the NBC lacks, where the Director-General of the Commission will still have to take permission from the Minister for Information and Culture if he has to do his work. In other words, if you look at the NBC Act under the first shadow, it talks about where the Minister for Information and Culture can give directives to the Director-General irrespective of what the directives are, which means that if the Minister for Information and Culture, for instance, wakes up one morning and no longer feels comfortable with plus TV, all he needs to do is just to call the Digi and tell the Digi to either revoke your license or to shut you down or to issue you a warning. And to us, it's a strategy, it's a control mechanism on the media. And again, if you look at the mode of appointments into the Commission, appointments are done directly by the Executive. We are saying that that is a control mechanism. Appointments should be done by the National Assembly with contributions from stakeholders drawn from the industry. Among those on the board, on the NBC board, you have the presence of the DSS. We keep asking, why is the DSS on the board of the NBC? So we'll continue to talk about it. Let's also deviate a bit to the policy angle. If you look at section 95 of the recently passed electoral act, the 2022 electoral act, when you look at section 95, I think from two to four when you read, you will discover the kind of draconian penalties that are stated, they are targeting individual journalists, targeting the media house. That is if there is a failure to provide fair and equitable coverage for every political party in the electoral process. There are very severe draconian penalties that have been put in place, some of which has to do with payment of fines running into millions of Naira, some of which has to do with jail terms, prescribed jail terms, and all of that. So what I see from all that you're laying out is a lot of amtwisting by the government or the leadership. That's what we are talking about. So when you talk about press freedom, I'm laying all of these issues on the table because I listened to the interview granted by the Minister of Information and Culture when the World Press Freedom Index was released a few weeks ago. I listened to him where he mentioned a number of things, where he said that the media in Nigeria is free, that it is only in Nigeria a national daily decided to take a decision that they will no longer describe or call the president a president, but that they are going to call him by his military title, which is general, that if it were in other claims, they would have shut down that media station. So I'm just laying all these tables on the ground to let everybody know that it is not because that we're not seeing journalists being thrown into jail at all times, even though we have seen some. The Akbar Jalingo case, the Shawara case and all of that, the Jones Abiri, we can go on and on. We will get to that point. But I want to toss to Wemimo. Wemimo, I'm going to put you in a box that you're probably not like. Being a woman, being in this business, being on the field, a journalist, you host a show alone. You do not have a pair, a guy sitting next to you to make it look like you have somebody to protect you. You're doing the show alone. I want to quote you, you break tables on your show. Now looking at what Sunday has said, especially with coverage and certain things that would attract fines, how easy has it been for you existing in this particular field as a woman journalist? Wemimo, did you hear anything I said? I think that we lost the connection. Well, to be very frank, I was on up by saying that the president said... Go ahead. Yes, I did. Can you hear me? Yes. Wemimo, are you still there? Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Well, I think that we're having a little connection issue with Wemimo. We'll try to see what we can do to fix that and get her back in. But let me come back to you Sunday. We were talking about these issues of the laws that might or bills that might become law. Now, what is the media doing about this? If you notice that most of these draconian laws or clauses and phrases within these bills are mostly targeted at the broadcast media. The print seems to be enjoying some sudden level of freedom, especially during the NSAR situation, media houses where the hardest hit. But then the print media just went ahead to print whatever they wanted to. Your observation is quite correct. And it is not... I think it has a history, you know. The print has always been traditionally very vibrant. If you look at the years of dictatorship in this country, it was a print, even though the media would take the glory, the entire sector would take the glory. But if you look at it, you discover that the print actually fought the battle to those of the military. Traditionally, the print has always been that vibrant and even more difficult in terms of regulation. But let's look at why there is so much interest on the broadcast media. You know that more people listen to the broadcast media compared to the print. And that's because of issues of illiteracy, mainly. The average farmer goes to the farm with a small radio where he can listen to news and all of that. But he doesn't have the luxury of buying a newspaper every day. Especially in communities where the illiteracy level is not so good. So it is normal that people will tend towards the broadcast media. And because broadcast media will naturally get such attention, naturally get a bigger audience, it is expected that there will be so much attention from regulators and policymakers, you know, on the broadcast sector. Now you talked about what journalists are doing, what media organizations are doing. The broadcasting organization of Nigeria, BON, I remember that also made submission last year during the proposed amendment hearing. There was a public hearing and I know that I can still remember that BON was fully represented. My organization was also, as a matter of fact, we organized before that hearing, we held a national summit where we brought together the broadcasting organization of Nigeria and the members of the NBC, where we had a proposed amendment to some of the clauses that we think that limit media freedom. And has there been a follow-up? Because it's one thing to put out amendments or adjustments, but is there a follow-through? Because if we want something done, we have to go ahead and get it done ourselves. So are we putting that much pressure? Of course, of course. There is a follow-up. A lot of things, a lot of work has been done at the background. A lot of things have been done. The engagement is still ongoing. The broadcast organization of Nigeria, for instance, recently held their, what do you call it? Is it the annual conference also where they also laid these issues before the director general of the commission and all of that. So things have been done, even though a lot could have been done better. And if things are not moving the way they are supposed to move, you should also understand why. There are political dynamics, there are cultural dynamics, there are religious dynamics involved in this. Then the ownership dynamics and all of that. So when you put all of these things together, you would understand, of course, why things may not move the way they should move. But I'd like to let you know that stakeholders are not keeping quiet. Stakeholders are talking. If not that we spoke out, the social media built you earlier talked about would have become lost by today. And maybe we may not even be having this discussion, this conversation by now. So what is ongoing? And that's why it's good that we continue to talk about it. At every opportunity we have, we talk about it. To draw the attention of policy makers and stakeholders. All right, I think we have a little bit more back. Can you hear me now? Unfortunately, we lost you for a second. One more, can you hear me? I think that we are having connection problems. Unfortunately, one more, we apologize. I'm sure that the internet is on your end is a bit shaking. But let's talk about the working conditions. Remember that you mentioned it in the opening, the working conditions. I go to places sometimes when I'm telling stories or interviewing people. Half the time they say the media is not doing their job. You're not doing investigative journalism. We need you to do more investigative journalism. So I'm going to throw it to you. Why are we not having more investigative journalism stories? And I see also that we are lacking in follow-ups. We put out a story, it's great, it gets the kind of reaction that we want. But then there's never really follow-through. There are no follow-ups to continue to develop that story. What do you think the major challenges are in terms of following the stories, wherever it goes? Yes, I remember that when I started I talked about the practice environment. And I talked about welfare in the practice environment. I talked about safety of journalists. What I didn't talk about is professionalism, the issue of professionalism. Journalism presently in Nigeria is suffering massively from the challenge of professionalism. Journalism, we used to say, when I sit down with colleagues and we talk about journalism. In fact, a few months ago we were in Accra for African freedom of expression and our general meeting. We were just having a conversation regarding journalism in Nigeria. It became very clear that journalism in Nigeria is an all-commerce affair. Why is it an all-commerce affair? It's only in journalism where you see somebody who read an engineering course, or maybe a medical course, practicing as either a broadcaster or a reporter, doing stories. Somebody who probably read psychology in school. So there is the lack of what should I say, standardization. So all of these things pose a very serious challenge in terms of staying on stories and following up on stories. It is not enough to break the story. We say, stay on the story. But what about the environment in which you're working? I'm coming to that. I'm just painting a picture of the professional landscape. Now, other issues within the environment which has to do with welfare of journalists. That is also key when you talk about press freedom. Most times we look at the policy issues, which most times look like the bigger issues. But the actual issues has to do with welfare of journalists. If a journalist is hungry, of course, it will be very easy to compromise. We have a lot of media houses that no longer pay journalists. We have a very big national daily. I don't want to mention them. They give you the ID card and they tell you that this ID card is your meal ticket. What are they saying? Go out to the field, collect brown envelopes, bring the story and all of that. So how do you see this investigative journalism in such an environment? For God's sake, the journalist is a human being. He's a product of the society. So if he's coming back home, his children expect to see bread. He has to put food on the table. So if you don't pay his salary, if you don't give him the right motivation, it is expected that naturally he will work out something for himself, either by any means. Then how many media organizations, how many media houses still buy work tools for their journalists? For instance, midgets. I know a lot of journalists in Portugal who bought midgets with their own money to do their own work. They pay their transport to bits and all of that. So when you put all of these things together, all of these challenges that the average Nigerian journalist is grappling with, of course, we can say that he is trying because it is our thinking that some of these things are also deliberate. They're a way of gagging the journalist from doing his work, limiting his potential. So when you talk about investigative journalism, why there is an absence of investigative journalism, I'm trying to let you know that there is a lot of investment you need to put in before you can do a serious investigative journalism. Without risking your life. Let me just try again. I think we now have Wemimo joining us on the phone. Wemimo, can you hear me? I can hear you clearly. Apologies. Welcome to the Connection Services in Nigeria. Let me go back to the question that I asked earlier. I'm sure that you listened to most of the things that Sunny said. Most importantly, as a woman who is operating in the environment that we find ourselves, knowing how hostile it is, knowing how competitive, very competitive it is, how easy do you think for you it has been? And would you say that that would be the case of every other woman? And he's also painted a picture of the fact that for some people in Nigeria, your identity card is your meal ticket. How do you even get respect as a journalist if this is how we're seeing? All right. Thank you, Maria. So I must say that I've listened to what the other person has said, and I must disagree with some of those points. I think we have quite a notion that we do not have enough professionals in Nigerian media. I certainly disagree with that. I've been in this sector for about 12 years. And also as a media trainer, I can tell you that we have quite a huge number of professionals in this country. We have people who have done massive stories that have generated impact in their local communities. We also have both the local NGOs, media NGOs and international funding stories. I've done quite a number of investigative reporting stories. I've trained about 300 in this country across Southwest Nigeria, and I can see the impact of the work that they're doing. The challenges are there, and I know that the main intent of funding are getting resources to go further. One of the biggest problems I see, though, is the lack of training for journalists. So in most media houses, there isn't a plan to train journalists, or there isn't a funding. There isn't soft funding for stories. So most journalists need to go get grants to run their own stories. That might be one of the biggest challenges. But I think that despite this, that we still have journalists who hold their head high. I mean, I work in this space every day, and I must say that I'm entirely proud of my colleagues across both broadcast, digital and French media. I see them challenging status quo. It's a very top terrain to work in in Nigeria. I mean, we have rankings showing that Nigeria is one of the worst countries in which you can't ever work as a journalist. That's scary enough. I've had investigative stories that I first need to drop because there were targets against my children. And again, like you pointed out, being a female in this industry, there are even much more limitations because you have a lot more things to consider than a man rules. But I mean, it is a job. And this is a work who has sworn to defend this country and to uphold the truth and also give a voice to the yelling of the people. We keep at it every day. I must say that when I heard the president say yesterday telling his media age to make information available to journalists, I think that tells you the situation of things. If it takes a commander in chief to give a directive to make information available, then you know that we have a big problem. I have had to try to make use of the freedom of information act. And I must tell you that it was quite a challenge. For government at all levels, they see journalists as their enemies. I've had the government officials ask me to my face which party do you work for? Why do you want to know? I mean, I was simply asking information about the number of schools that we had in Lagos. There are pairs in our course, but apparently I was up to my face. Why do you want data unless our opponent has sent you? So that's the eye with which most government officials approach issues. Again, this is one of our biggest problems. This is one leaf of the stifling of the media. You see laws that are apparently, apparently raised to deter freedom of the press. So giving a directive is not enough. We need to see the action. We need to see that indeed I can tell a story without my life being threatened. After the NSAS, many media organizations were sanctioned for even covering the NSAS process. Tell me about the freedom of the press. Interesting, because we're almost out of time. I'll just pose this last question to you. I've seen journalists disappear. I've seen many arrested, bullied. I can never get that video out of my head of the FFK and a journalist who asked him who was funding his, or who was bankrolling him, and we saw the reaction that he got. We've seen all these kinds of things happen. Do we see us as a country, you know, do you see a time when Nigeria will go past this, you know, situation that we've seen ourselves in? I mean, most people will tell you that it's better today. But will we see a better and freer press in Nigeria telling the stories as it is without fear of favour, or somebody calling your boss and telling him to fire you? Well, I can only hope. I mean, that's the same way everybody will hope. I can only say we hope. But I think that journalists need to raise their heads high. I'm a very proud broadcast journalist. And I think that government officials who have crossed my path, they know very clearly what my stance is. I demand respect and I give the same. I think the most journalists also need to do so. As much as you give respect to government officials, you must also demand respect. But this is made difficult by media buying. I mean, a lot of media houses, they're greatly influenced by government officials. So, I'm certainly interested to research it. But I'm only possibly afraid of picking up and then getting back to his media house and there isn't a support for him back home. So, he doesn't want to do the music, so he simply keeps quiet as he's ordered to. Can we get better leadership? I think we can. If we have citizens, you know, become stronger, make their voices stronger, join the media. I always advocate that the job is not just for the media, but that we need to have a strong citizenry that demands good governance. That helps the media even do their job better. Okay. Well, I want to say thank you. Wemi Madoni is a broadcast journalist, host of the Table Talk on 99.3 Nigeria Info Lagos and Sunny Dada is head free expression and pluralism Institute for Media and Society. And he's also a Rotary Peace Fellowship. Thank you so much, guys, for being part of the conversation. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break. Now, when we return, we'll continue to talk about the issue of zoning and power rotation. Stay with us.