 Well, good afternoon everybody, to everybody in the room and to everybody joining us online. Welcome to this special discussion on the future of European Union enlargement. My name is John O'Brennan and I'm a professor at Maneuth University specializing in enlargement policy and it's a great pleasure to be asked to chair this session today. Just before we begin, this is part of the Institute's future proofing Europe project and we want to sincerely thank our colleagues in the Department of Foreign Affairs for the support that they provide for this project and for others associated with the Institute. We're delighted today to be joined by Lawrence Meredith, director for Neighborhood East and institution building in DG Near in the European Commission. We're very grateful that Lawrence has given us his time and the benefit of his extraordinary experience within the Western Balkans and within the Eastern partnership countries over very many years. Some of you will know that this is in fact the third in a very busy series this week. I've seen some of you more than I've seen my own family recently, which is never a bad thing you might argue. On Tuesday the Institute hosted the Swedish Minister for European Affairs and Nordic Cooperation Jessica Roswell and yesterday we had the Irish Minister for State for European Affairs and Defence Peter Burke who offered an Irish perspective on the topic. So we've had a very interesting range of member state perspectives on enlargement. Now just a little bit of housekeeping. Lawrence is going to speak for about 10 to 15 minutes. We will then have significant time for questions and answers both from the floor and questions directed online. If you are online we would ask that you use the Q&A function in Zoom and we will direct those questions then towards Lawrence. Now I don't think I need to reiterate too much the fact that EU enlargement has come back onto the agenda in a very serious way this year. We're meeting today I think at a very important juncture because it rests between the point where the Commission produced its annual progress reports on the candidate states some weeks ago and before potentially critical decisions are taken by the European Council in December. There's also been a huge amount of activity this year with think tanks and policy institutes producing lots of different papers on enlargement and trying to scope out what it means both for the European Union and for candidate states and aspiring states. The Franco-German paper for example from mid-September was a very very interesting one and it's elicited a lot of comment. I very much look forward to hearing what Lawrence has to say. He has been Director for Neighborhood East and Institution Building in DG NEAR in the Commission since December 2015. It's great to be able to welcome him back to Dublin. We last met at Government Buildings in 2018 when there was a symposium on the Eastern Partnership and its development and evolution. Lawrence previously had been Head of Strategy in DG NEAR and led work on the European Neighborhood Policy Review. He worked previously for 10 years on the enlargement portfolio in different roles so he has really deep experience in exactly the regions that are gravitating closer to the European Union through the accession process. So with no further ado it's a great pleasure to ask Lawrence to address our audience. Lawrence thank you. Well many thanks John for that very warm welcome. It's a pleasure and an honor to be back here in Dublin and especially here in this institute this distinguished body with so many of you here both in the room and online. I fully agree with everything that you've said and what I thought I could do today after you've heard the views from both Sweden and Ireland is set out how we see it from the European Commission. As you said I've actually been in this field for 17 years that goes all the way back before Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia joined. I've seen quite a number of evolutions in enlargement policy and contributed to some of them on the way and so I think President von der Leyen put it very clearly in her recent State of the Union speech by calling on all European citizens to hear the call of history and nobody wanted to find ourselves in this situation of Russia's brutal illegal invasion of Ukraine for over 18 months such brutality that has changed the whole geopolitical context. But I think the President's been quite clear that this is a moment where the Ukrainians first and foremost have stood up and responded and showed how important for them being part of the European family is and I worked on Ukraine from 2000 to 2004 very closely and I think it's simply staggering how fast they have managed to reform on so many areas and that in a time of war but I also think that the impact that this war has had which is in itself tragic has also put us in a different geopolitical context and I think you see the speed with which governments in Moldova and Georgia have taken on the challenge of reforming some really challenging areas rule of law democracy human rights independent media and I think it's been a catalyst for reforms also in the western Balkans who've seen what's been happening and have seen the need to accelerate their own path towards Europe and that's why I think you can say very clearly and I'm sure you heard that from both ministers earlier this week that there's a renewed momentum in the enlargement process the first time in almost 20 years that there has been a package presented for 10 countries and I think one thing I remember from being part of the processes before is that really generates a healthy competition between these countries that people look across at what the neighbors are doing and whether these reforms are progressing in the right way they get good ideas and I think that that can only enrich the process and I completely agree John that this was the time I had hoped to be able to come to Dublin and address you because I think it's when we have the most interesting debate you rightly said the proposals are on the table but we've still got a month or just less than a month before the European Council leaders will take groundbreaking decisions I don't know what decisions they will take you know what the Commission's recommendations are and I'm going to say of course a few words about that but I think it's a really really important moment and probably in many ways certainly as regards enlargement the biggest European Council in approaching 20 years so that's why I'm going to start by talking about the countries themselves and then perhaps we talk about the process at the end of that let's start most obviously with Ukraine where we had called in our opinion on their application for membership for them to address seven steps and we I think it's really important to underline that this is a merit space process there is no fast track this is all about what reforms have been delivered on the ground and as an EU official in enlargement for many years I've always underlined with my teams our credibility the credibility of the European Union depends fundamentally on an accurate portrayal and that's so important because the countries themselves know where they stand all EU member states have ambassadors or representatives who are reporting to them so it's really important that we have an accurate picture of what's going on and I think as I said in my opening remarks Ukraine has really stepped up and driven reform at a remarkable pace and that's been the basis for the Commission's recommendation for the Council to both open accession negotiations with Ukraine and also to adopt negotiating frameworks once a number of further steps have been taken and in a similar vein I was actually in Moldova with Minister Peter Burke only a month ago and we were at the Moldova support platform together and we heard addresses from President Sandu, Prime Minister Red Shan and Foreign Minister Popescu and again you could really sense the vigor with which the Moldovans are driving forward reforms and again it's the the same main areas of rule of law of course big debates on issues like the oligarchisation I'm sure we'll come back to that when we get to questions and answers but we see that out of the nine steps that they were asked to say they've made very very substantial progress and that's why again the Commission is recommending opening accession negotiations with Moldova and again that the Council would adopt a negotiating framework once Moldova has taken a number of additional steps and we can talk about what those steps are and how they perhaps when we get to the questions let me turn to Georgia where I was asked by our Commissioner to present the package in the light of the adoption I was in Tbilisi just after the recommendation had been made and I have to say that in the eight years I've been in this position I've never experienced such an atmosphere there was euphoria and waving of European flags on the streets of Tbilisi and I would ask you to reflect on in how many places you see such vibrant waving of European Union flags and I also had discussions both with civil society and the leaders of all political parties represented in the parliament and again definitely one of the issues we've talked about in the lead up to our report was a polarization they need to tackle this and I have to say in the eight years I've been there I've not seen such a consensual discussion of course there were differences of opinion it's natural it's the nature of things that political parties differ on how things should be done but there was unanimity that they felt that they welcomed the Commission's recommendation and they really really call on the all EU member states to support the recommendation to grant candidate status to Georgia also of course on the understanding that the remaining steps and priorities are addressed and here I'd like to talk about a couple of the issues that we've identified which is foreign interference and information and manipulation alignment with CFSP these are important issues this is about joining the European Union means taking on EU values that's in the treaty and I think these are issues that in this geopolitical context are all the more important than they've ever been before and I'm going to turn to the western Balkans and I'm going to start with Bosnian Herzegovina because the commissioners also recommended the opening of EU accession negotiations with Bosnian Herzegovina once the necessary degree of compliance with the membership criteria is achieved we see progress on several fronts we also call on Bosnian Herzegovina to fulfill the 14 key priorities that are set out in the commission's opinion on their membership application and you can see the evidence that we put in our report and you know for me this process is always about the people of these countries and this is really a significant message of encouragement to the people of Bosnia Herzegovina who have faced as we know many challenges over the year but it's also a call on the authorities to take their responsibilities and to accelerate reforms on these areas this brings me to talk about Albania and North Macedonia where the screening process for which I'm actually responsible under my institution building hat is advancing smoothly and swiftly which is really important and there I think the the main opportunity that is on the table is to open the first cluster the fundamentals ideally by the end of this year and that's for the authorities to deliver on these key areas we keep talking about rule of law in particular and then let me come to Kosovo and Serbia an issue as John said that I worked on in depth for a number of years when the very first dialogue was started all those years ago and I think the EU has been really clear that normalization is part of the process and it's imperative on both sides to take the steps to address this we've seen tension this year we've seen setbacks and I think it's really important that both sides address those issues and that will be an important element in their path towards the European Union and so Montenegro we do welcome the formation of a government that is sending signals that is very interested in the progress towards the European Union and of course their progress will depend on meeting the interim benchmarks set in the famous rule of law chapters 23 and 24 that's key to the overall speed of progress I would also like to flag the growth plan that's a innovation put 6 billion euros on the table 2 billion in grants 4 billion in loans it's very very substantial it's got four pillars firstly deeper integration with the European Union single market which is of course the foundation of the membership that lies ahead secondly and this has been a challenge in the western Balkans regional economic integration this really needs to accelerate and I know there are others in this room who know the reason even better than I do and I'm sure you'd agree that this has been often a frustrating challenge to get the economic opportunities to their full advantage we really call on the governments to take this opportunity there's substantial incentives on the table now and thirdly of course once again the growth plan you know business environment is again about rule of law democracy reliability and predictability and so these elements will be the third pillar of the growth plan and fourthly of course the incentives of the financial support itself so all these three issues come with the incentives of this 6 billion growth plan we believe this is a really substantial new element that in a moment where the western Balkans is looking at what's happening in other parts of the world we've talked about Ukraine Moldova and Georgia there are strong incentives on the table in the new growth plan for the western Balkans to help them accelerate their reforms towards the European Union and of course Turkey is a candidate country and a key partner for the European Union but the accession negotiations remain at a standstill and it's imperative on them to take the steps to address these issues so I'd like to talk finally about what does all this mean this is a future proofing what does this mean for the existing European Union member states I've been discussing this in my bilateral meetings here in Dublin with different departments and of course I think the president's been very clear that right now work starts following her State of the Union speech from next year on policy reviews that will look at all aspects of what that implies for a future European Union and let's be very clear on the rules of the game your enlargement is an intergovernmental process as you all know very well its decisions are taken by unanimity and that means that future member states will only join once the existing European Union member states can agree on how that can be done and but we cannot wait for the process to reach its end point before we start the thinking the thinking starts now and that's what we're here to discuss I'm sure we will have a lively debate but I think it's quite right of course what are the challenges I mean speaking here in Ireland and reflecting the discussions I've been listening to here in the different departments of course the budget the institutional mechanisms how will the changes be achieved I've heard views expressed on whether a treaty change could be required and I hear the strong reservations expressed here about that and I think you know every member state has its view the EU as it should and always does will listen to each and every view and we need to find a way forward agriculture is always a major element and when we talk about the budget but I would to to this audience I would say and we've done it before we did it with the big enlargement in 2004 we did it with big countries Poland Romania they're now on the inside as member states they have their own interests in the same sector so I think this will be a key element of the future negotiations and it will be definitely challenging discussions I'm sure it always is but up to now we've always found solutions and I think the essence of the European Union is we're stronger together that's the pull that the European Union has for all these countries we're discussing today and I think that the EU is more than capable as the president von der Leyen says of answering the call of history and taking steps to complete our union thank you very much and I'll take a seat if that's all right and I'll be delighted to answer your questions well thanks very much indeed Lawrence for that very comprehensive and I would say hopeful analysis of where we might be going with further enlargement can I begin by asking a question about the rule of law and the link between the rule of law and how it functions within the European Union and the cluster of fundamentals within the enlargement process because it seems to me there's a potential contradiction if the EU is not seriously enough pursuing rule of law abuses or transgressions within its jurisdiction it becomes more difficult to say to elites in Albania in Bosnia anywhere else that these are the rule of law reforms that you must implement before you can join now there has been I think many people would argue progress in tackling a lot of the abuses through different tools and mechanisms but do you see a linkage between the two and is it something that within the capitals of the candidate and aspiring states that comes up that they talk about hypocrisy or you know they can point to things within the union that are deficient to say the least that they're being held in a way to a higher standard Thanks very much John and I think that I don't know how many times I use the phrase rule of law in my opening remarks but I think it's very much at the heart of today's enlargement process I think this is something that we've learned through experience through experience I've lived through and you know the European Union is constantly evolving and people say are we changing the goalposts well the very simple answer is that the European Union is changing and therefore the goalposts reflect where the European Union is today and will be tomorrow and that's not where it was 10 years ago 20 years ago so I think the first point to be really clear is yes any future member state will not only be expected to meet the standards of today 2023 but the standards that we will have put in place by whenever they will join and that's I think it's important to be clear on this sometimes there are misunderstandings that is the case yes it's challenging yes it means that even when we're doing the screening I talked about screening right now for Albania North Macedonia I'm sure it'll be an issue if the council takes a decision to open accession negotiations for example with Ukraine and Moldova there'll be a strong desire to advance quickly again with screening but when we will have done the screening that will be the photograph of then and as the process evolves these countries and the European Commission will have a responsibility to help those countries meet the new criteria as they develop and I think there are strong incentives on the table there's the Ukraine facility in prospect not yet fully decided but there is also the growth plan which has been announced six billion of which one of the key pillars is the fundamentals for the western Balkans so there's a lot of help and yes I do think that the President von der Leyen since she took up office has been crystal clear she wants a Europe of values it's one of her political guidelines and 10 priorities and in that time we've really moved forward with the rule of law reports in the European Union and we've made it clear that from next year onwards we'll be doing assessments to which countries we would open the rule of law reports also to these countries so I think it's robustly clear that and I think that that is one of the key factors that the people of these countries be it to the western Balkans or Ukraine Moldova Georgia really want is a more effective rule of law in their own countries thank you that brings me to a question about public opinion and civil society was interested in what you said about your trip to Tbilisi and the huge popular support that there exists there for membership but one of the criticisms of the EU in the enlargement process over the years is that it didn't really work effectively enough with civil society that the process has been kind of elite led for very understandable reasons governments have to be the key actors but if you look at what happened in Poland the mobilization of civil society there before the election was extraordinary and it leads some to argue that the EU and the Commission should be more proactive in working with civil society groups on the ground in candidate states well thanks John that's a very good point and if you look at what we've said last year in our opinions on Ukraine Moldova and Georgia for the first time we made it explicit that engagement with civil society was one of the priorities that we wanted them to address that's the first time that's been put so clearly black on white and I think that reflects a realization of what you say is is completely correct in my almost 20 years experience in this business the speed with which a country moves towards the European Union reflects the consensus in that country so if you see a country let's take Georgia again as the example where over 80 percent of people in consistent surveying over the eight years it's ranged between I think 75 and 85 percent over the entire period I've been a director I mean that shows a groundswell of popular opinion and any political leader needs to take that into account I give the example of Georgia I could have given other countries and I think another thing I'd like to say is in in the time I've been working there and I'm thinking in particular of engaging with our former deputy director general Katerina Maternava now the ambassador in Kiev and one of the things I learned with her is that she really transformed how the European Union is engaging with civil society in these countries and our motto was it's it's not enough for governments just to hear civil society you have to actually change things there's no point we're well beyond yeah let's have a meeting take the box we've seen civil society we're going to do our proposals anyway that's not at all what the European Union has in mind what we have in mind is we've a solid process of consultation and the original proposals are changed not all of them not to every aspect but at least demonstrable change between what the government of the day thought they might want to put on the table because they've heard the views of civil society so and I'd like to also make another point about let's say the will of the people this is not just about what's the dynamic in the countries applying to join the European Union and that's why I'm here in Dublin and in Ireland this is about making sure that the people across the existing members of the European Union see why it's also in their interests that enlargement takes place and I think this is a really important part that's why I was so delighted to have the opportunity and the invitation of the institute to be thank you I'm going to turn now to questions from our audience both here in the room and online so if you would like to put a question to Lawrence please raise your hand and you might just tell us your name and your affiliation before I do Stephen with apologies I'll come back to you in a moment there is a question online from General Gerard Herne who's retired Brigadier General and a member of the Institute he asks do you think that the normalization process for Kosovo for Kosovo serves entails their capitulation to uneven political and civic dominance by Kosovo Albanians now I come at that issue differently there have been very worrying developments in the relationship between the two in recent months we saw a paramilitary raid into northern Kosovo in September and there does seem still what are we 10 or 11 years on from the agreement that you and your colleagues worked on to be just this great distance between the two and that rapprochement just isn't happening so I wonder if you talk about that because you have such extraordinary experience with Serbia Kosovo relations and whether there is a genuine prospect for solving that problem well thank you very much both the Brigadier General for his question and for your remarks as well it's true that I know both Kosovo and Serbia well from working on that from 2006 to 2015 and through an extraordinary period of development I think the European Union and all the member states have been really really clear that normalization is essential on the path towards the European Union we have a very high level EU special representative leading the process with strong support from the high representative vice president and and yes you're right there's definitely I referred to in my opening remarks there are there is right now this year there has been tension in both directions and I'd like to come back to the point I made about enlargement more generally the the speed of progress depends on the consensus and that can be an expression of the will of the people I am sure that the people both of Serbia and of Kosovo want membership of the European Union they expect from their leadership of course that doesn't mean that even the people or the leaders expect every aspect compromise on both sides is always difficult but it is essential that there is progress on normalization for and I think that is something that the people expect I do hope I mean there is a political dimension to this but I do believe that the growth plan on the table offers immense new opportunities to incentivize reform because in compromise there are often people who perceive that they lose out I'm not saying that all these aspects can be addressed by financial support alone I do believe the political process is key but I do think that with the additional massive support that the growth plan offers that can trigger hopefully a clear return to consensus building which is imperative for progress on this issue on that very point about the new subvention it seems to me that not just in the western Balkans but I see this in the relationship between Bulgaria and Romania where I think there are still only three bridges across the Danube it has been very difficult to develop regional cooperation and I get the sense sometimes in the western Balkans that it's an either or the way it's actually perceived by people and if they do invest a lot in embracing regional cooperation it might be at the expense of their EU membership trajectory I just wondered do you see evidence that there is a sort of change there and people are beginning to understand the value of that kind of regional cross-border interstate economic cooperation as a vehicle not just for taking all of the states towards the EU but solving some of those issues about identity and so on well thank you I think that if you ask the question do people want better connectivity in the western Balkans it's a really simple answer absolutely yes then of course you ask individual countries and well how should we achieve this and I've worked on this with for a number of years and and then you get different views from different partners and that's normal it's a little it's a different context but yes again we're talking about compromise there are different ways you could enhance the connectivity of the western Balkans I think the European Union together with the governments have been clear on the plan for example the TENS network Trans-European networks is an internationally agreed approach now we need to not just put our money where our math is there is money on the table so money will not be the sole factor it's about political agreement on the way forward it's about sequencing that we have to start somewhere and and I think again this is something people really want you know to go to a region I'm working on right now the Caucasus we're talking about a black sea undersea cables so both for electricity and digital I think we're in a different different geo strategic context I think such an idea so ambitious would have been unimaginable even three years ago now not only is it unimaginable it's almost unimaginable that we don't have such a plan because and and it's coming from both sides of the Caucasus I've also been in Bucharest colleagues have been in Sofia there's a strong desire it's obvious that we need different sources of electricity it's obvious that the renewable spend potential in each of the three Caucasus countries will be massively enhanced not just enhanced why is it not happening anyway because where would they sell it to there's a fixed domestic market look at the neighbours where do you sell it to so you don't necessarily grow your thing if you can't sell the electricity if on the other hand there were a cable under the seat which is a long-term project but it's one we need to make progress on and we're working on with a big international consortium that's a game changer not just for the three countries of the Caucasus but for a number of EU member states and for the western Balkans so I mean energy is key as part of this geo strategic repositioning as well well as somebody who spends a lot of time in the Black Sea I heartily endorse that message I have to say we're going to take a first question from our audience in the room Stephen we will get a microphone and just a reminder that this session is taking place on the record thank you so thank you very much for my name is Stephen Day from Boita University long way away in Japan thank you very much it's really insightful and inspiring talk I want to just pick up on and you mentioned in the end of one of your answers to John about essentially about how we sell the idea of enlargement toward the existing EU member states publics because obviously I guess there's no doubt that there will be certain political parties that will seek to use it as a wedge issue in future elections so I just wondered if you could elaborate on how it can be sold to existing member state publics thank you thank you very much Stephen great to see you I'm a flattered and honored that you've come from Oita I hope for you that it's not just for the pleasure of this conversation but I'll do my best to make it worthwhile even if it were and and that's a fundamental question and I I think outreach is an important part of it but that's the first and foremost the responsibility of each of the governments the European Union I really believe they need and I think that's why I couldn't unfortunately be here myself but one of my colleagues was reporting on what Minister Peter Burke said here yesterday about Irish as Ireland has always been at the forefront of enlargement spoken in favour recognise that there are real challenges I think people want to hear an honest assessment of the road that lies ahead and one should not just paint it as enlargement is blue sky and green pastures I do believe that that's the right direction it's what the minister said but there are definitely challenges on the road but we have the capacity to address those we've done it before and the European Union is stronger as a bigger actor this college President von der Leyen Hrvb Borel have been really clear not only in saying that the European Commission needs to be a better geopolitical actor but in demonstrating it can be a better geopolitical actor and I think you know many thought that the EU would be divided by what happened in Ukraine they thought that already in 2014 they definitely thought that what happened in from 2022 onwards would sooner or later result in splits I remember numerous commentators especially going back to the 2014 period saying EU could never hold this this is not going to work I I'd like to come back to that because that is clearly and demonstrably not been the case the EU is strongly and passionately united in defence of Ukraine Ukraine is led by its own actions and its own volunteerism to reform and to resist and demonstrate its resilience so I think people see that we're in a totally different geopolitical context where the EU needs to stand up for its own values this is about democracy rule of law peace and security and I think using the European peace facility when it was first put forward I heard many say now what are you doing member states will never back it and even if we adopt it they'll never use it and bang you know incredible and people forget so quickly what was said by the commentators but I haven't forgotten that and this is I mean we regret that we found ourselves in a situation where it was needed to use it so urgently but I was I think we can only be impressed that the EU is acting as a geopolitical player and that is the future so when you talk about what are the challenges yes of course there are budgetary issues but these will be addressed that of course there's a functioning of the EU issues although I'm not sure that's what gets the people on the streets most excited I think it's the the budget the agriculture what's you know will this affect our own livelihoods but I think we have to be clear there will be adjustments but I in the longer run you're talking about a bigger market bigger opportunities and I we have seen that the enlargement of 2004 yes there were there were issues on the road but on balance clearly economically the case is demonstrated that is the greater benefit of all including first and foremost the original EU member states if I can put it that way who have taken those economic opportunities and who've expanded their markets and their prosperity I keep making that point that if you travel regularly from Estonia down to Bulgaria you can see the extraordinary material difference that enlargement has made it is quite incredible I don't think it's well enough understood here perhaps and in some other member states of the EU just how much transformation has taken place I want to just come to a question one online and then I will come to Ambassador Zurbishvili there's a question from Professor Maureen Younger Kenny at Trinity College Dublin she asks how can the European Union address the challenge of its unanimity rule in respect of enlargement and locking measures by member states at particular junctures it's been widely reported in recent days that Hungary is going to object to the opening of negotiations with Ukraine and this leads me to reflect on other patterns of blockages the Bulgarian blockage of North Macedonia for example which is entirely about culture identity and history for me has no place within the enlargement process it's something that professors and others should slug it out over but it has been a recurring feature of the enlargement process over the last decade or more where member states who are on the inside for whatever set of reasons seek to block progress being made by candidate states do you want to just look ahead to the December European Council and even beyond that to see how can we move beyond that kind of obstructionism thank you I mean enlargement from its very first days has been an intergovernmental process it's been decision by all member states acting individually and together and yes I recognize that that has presented numerous challenges to the countries but also as in all modesty as the European Union official it's presented us with quite a lot of challenges on the on the path we've looked as imaginatively as we can at how to address those issues which as you say this is not let's say what the we had imagined when we set out the enlargement strategy but the the fact of the matter is under the current rules they they they we have to reach consensus and yes that does involve lengthy discussions debates sometimes not always compromise and that is difficult but being a member of a club that works at 27 has its challenges but we've just discussed it has massive opportunities so if you act as the European Union you have greater security greater economic prosperity but in a process which is ruled by unanimity that you do have to reach consensus now I am sure that when we talk about the policy reviews and and future proofing which is the theme this institute is very interestingly chosen looking ahead these issues are going to come to the fore I cannot judge where the decisions will land but I'm certain that that will be on the table as part of the discussion yeah ambassadors are best for the thank you very much John for for this opportunity and of course I wish to thank you the Institute of International and European Affairs for this opportunity to give said you provide to all of us all the time with the very excellent speakers where we can hear their views and then we can have an opportunity to to participate in the Q&A session as well and of course I wish to thank you very much Lawrence for your very long-standing friendship to the people of Georgia to Georgia you are a very well known person in Georgia and I can say is that you are one of the best experts from Brussels who knows all the insights of the of the Georgian internal and foreign politics I wish to say that first of all I'm very much delighted not just myself but we all are very much delighted that that the last decision of the European Union to recommend the George to grant there the the kind of status has been has been has been done it gives us additional incentives to fulfill the other reforms that that should be done by by the government and as it has been mentioned here very much rightly that the success is based on the consensus of the government and the people or the civil society in other words and I think that Georgia is the good example where the government and the civil society are doing the same driving the whole nation towards the European Union and what you mentioned about the flex the European Union flex it just is not just a symbolism but it brings of course the death of the mindset of the civil society of the government and of the people so my first question for me will be that as we will hopefully that decision will be done by the end of by by by mid of December and Georgia will be granted final it was against status and it will give us an opportunity to catch up with our very friendly nations of Ukraine and Moldova will that will that will that be something that you would consider that it could be restored that three your countries can be restored again it will be the same basket as we were before that is my first question and the second question will be that it has been mentioned here for a few times about what does it mean for those countries I mean the enlargement what has been enlargement for those countries that are already the members of the European Union and how to sell to the members of the European Union the next enlargement and it was absolutely rightly mentioned that there are a few dimensions the political dimension is that of course I will be saying that is the the spread of the European values and then and the democracy this is number one is the best ones that the European Union can do by spring the democracy further to the eastern borders of the European continent that will bring the stability and security to the European content as it is on the other hand it is economic dimensions and that's Lawrence that you have mentioned about the cables under the under the flexible cables carrying energy and the fiber optic cables at the same time it will provide additional I would say possibilities to diverse the crude and oil from the Casper Basin at the same time it will link the European market with the quite rich and multiple economics of the Asian world this is not very well linked for now because Georgia serves as a good corridor connecting east and west and of course it's not just by land but by air as well so my question will be in that in that regard would you think that this will be something that Georgia can contribute to the future of the European Union thank you thank you George didi madelaba thank you very much George and let's start with your first point when I made my opening remarks I talked about this being the first enlargement with 10 countries for almost 20 years I believe that and I'm sure that this will create a renewed energy and dynamism in the enlargement process and yes our previous experiences showed that when you've got more countries looking to join more examples more different ways of doing it right and perhaps not quite so good you this competition and I can already sense not just from what you said but from my own experiences traveling Moldova and Georgia recently that they're watching each other closely by the way I know that in Tbilisi a couple of weeks ago there was actually a meeting where they also invited senior representatives from western Balkan countries so that shows that this is becoming a broader community where they're cooperating discussing learning from each other which I as somebody who's director for institution building can only wholeheartedly support and literally support in the sense that I have instruments that can facilitate that that's healthy now can they catch up that's the responsibility of the Georgian authorities first and foremost and I've already made the point that it's pretty clear to me that it's the will of the people so it's and if I'm not mistaken there's an important event next year and I'm sure that will be pretty pretty determining in that context as well so but the first step is the needs to be decisions taken we've the Commission's just made its recommendations it's for the European Union at 27 to take the decision I think I'm not one should not count one's chickens and also in the case of Georgia we've been very clear that there are a number of further steps that will need to be addressed to confirm such a decision if it's taken and I flagged already the issues related to foreign interference and the manipulation of information CFSP alignment but there are other factors about ensuring a free and fair competitive electoral process which will be key ahead of next year I'm not going to list them all but that's the first priority and step by step and of course then I think it's an admirable goal to catch up because that shows ambition in the reform process but it's not just ambition it's about delivery of course and Georgia contributes absolutely I think Georgia's key the geography of the region which you know far better than I is such that that is the entry point to the Caucasus if you come from the European Union and I'm really proud to have been in a modest way part of our commissioners vision together with the leaders of the region both the Caucasus and the EU to see these ambitious projects move forwards I talked about the Black Sea electricity cable I mentioned also the fiber optic cable there's also ferries a simple physical ferry that would discontinued for a couple of decades then now started again these are these are symbols that people recognize and use you say you travel in the region it makes a difference yeah and a lot of the time I am forced to travel through Istanbul because it's the only way I can get from one city to another which is deeply frustrating I imagine for people in business as much as I would make a picture that I made in Tbilisi recently and it's not just about Georgia it's for other countries you know what and this is not just selfish from John and me I actually said this to the deputy foreign minister in Georgia recently I said experience shows that if you want to intensify your dialogue with the European Union it's pretty basic and obvious you need direct flights I remember there were direct flights around the time of visa liberalization which which George benefited now for a number of years I leave that thought with you that's for others to decide but it would be enormously helpful I have a question online from Dan O'Brien who is the chief economist with the Institute and Dan's question is about media freedom press freedom within the European Union and the enlargement landscape he asks what sort of thresholds for press freedom could trigger the commission to intervene in a member state and I presume in a candidate state as well in which a government and or political parties seek to curb freedom of the press there's deep concern I think Lawrence about media capture the capture of both public and private television radio and newspapers both within the EU and particularly in the western Balkan states and I just wonder about your view about how proactive potentially the commission might be because there's a lot of evidence to show in some states the media has been almost entirely captured by oligarchic forces or those that are close to the governing party or regime well thanks to Dan for his question I think this goes to the core of EU values anchored in the treaty on the European Union and at the heart of the enlargement process which put the relevant articles at the at the center of the enlargement process quite rightly but it's not about articles in the treaties about what people want people want to hear a diversity of opinions and people have views on the direction of their own country often of other countries by the way but I mean they and in a in a global world a digital world you know access to information is it has been completely transformed I've got three teenage boys who are much more agile in this world than I am and I mean you see even in the tragic circumstance war in Ukraine is that me in the war in Ukraine you know information is key and therefore independence of media is an essential criteria and this is again what we said in the steps look at what we put in Ukraine Moldova Georgia it's really clearly identified it's always been an issue also in in previous parts of the enlargement but I think it's only we're only strengthening our attachment to freedom of media making ever more explicit and clear not just in the words of the report which are the anchor but in the political dialogue that are EU political leaders have and here I'd like to make a point because you say this is the third in a series and we've had ministers from Sweden and Ireland I would also say that the strength of the European Union is when EU leaders speak with one voice so it's not just about the leadership of the European Union institutions it's about EU ministers making these messages and underlining that this is the voice of 27 speaking to the applicant countries whichever they may be. I have a question from Valerie Hughes who is a member of the Institute. Valerie asks about the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights Daniel Milatovic and the recent warning in her report about war criminals returning to the former Yugoslavia as war heroes. We've seen some examples of that in recent times. She mentions Russian support for Serb right-wing activists and organizations. She also mentions Alicia Kerns very prominent conservative member of parliament in London her statement about the appeasement of Belgrade being a problem. What is the Commission's view about this and she underlines and connects this to President Zelinsky's recent warning about the vulnerability of the western Balkans to Russian penetration in particular? Well as I've just said we're in a rapidly transforming information space which is global so the European Union but also working let me start from this angle there's different aspects to the question. The Council of Europe is one of our key partners when we put together a European Commission report we consult all major international organizations who have views and access to information this is definitely one of the persons and institutions with whom we work extremely closely so this is of course the European Commission takes its own view but we we take these as elements of evidence into consideration when we set out our reports that's the first point and that's a constant dialogue that we have not only with the Council of Europe but with other bodies our CEO dear we talked about for example election processes so it's really important that while they may not be EU a key formally speaking there are broader European standards and we refer to refer to those in terms of foreign interference and manipulation of information I've already said that this is something I mean this was not an element in the previous enlargements it simply did not come on the table I'm sure if one looks back in history one could have discussed aspects about it but it it could not not be on the table now and I think in I keep going on but it's really fundamental in this new geopolitical geostrategic context this is a reality this needs to be addressed and this is being expressed as a key issue look at what we put in the next steps that these countries need to take this is is fundamental and ultimately it comes back to espousing values and I would also say it's about what the people want and if the people of a country whichever it may be call strongly enough for their leadership to drive towards the European Union it's never linear the progress there will be steps forward steps backwards but it's the people who will hold the leadership accountable and I do believe that for whichever of these countries that they that the process of going towards the no not the the goal of EU membership is fundamental for the people and that is what will mean that leaderships have been held to account and we've seen it in previous enlargements that those they've always been breaks or deviations or differences at different moments but then it's the people who need to hold their leadership to account well I'm very sorry that I have to bring this conversation to an end I want to thank our colleagues at the institute for hosting us to Anna and Lorcan and their colleagues for all the logistical help in preparing to Jill and her colleagues for organizing this really interesting series of events and to anybody who's just tuning in for this one I highly recommend that you go back and watch Tuesday and Wednesday's events from our ministers the Swedish and Irish ministers I want to thank everybody who has viewed online and everybody who has come to the institute today for what's been I think you'll agree a really expansive and highly illuminating conversation led by Lawrence so we really appreciate it Lawrence thank you very much indeed you're welcome back in Dublin anytime thank you