 So it is 10 a.m. central time. It's time for our next session. I'm Big Talk from Small Libraries, 2022. I'm Krista Porter, your host here at the Nebraska Library Commission. And for our second session of the day, we are ditching Dewey. Yay. And this is something similar, actually kind of related to our previous session, which is about genre-fying a school library. I think switching up totally and doing something completely different for how you arrange your library collection. Our previous session was from the school library and here we have a public library. So this day is Jennifer Garden. Good morning, Jennifer. Good morning. And she's going to tell us about how her library actually did it and how it all went. So go ahead and take it away. All right. So several years ago, at the same time that we genre-fied the children's section, I decided to try something a little bit different. So one of the biggest problems I was coming up with is that patrons were coming in, particularly the kids. And they would just come up to me and say, where do I find whatever it is they were looking for? And then I would take them over and show them where it would be in the Dewey section. But the thing is, we're a small library, so some of our Dewey sections were very small. At one point I was looking for something I believe it was in the 400s and we had like three books in that section. And that just wasn't useful. It was really hard to find, even for me. So I knew for a patron it was going to be very hard to find. And then you had your classic dilemmas of, well, it's a train book. Does it go in 385 or does it go in 625? It's a computer book. Why are the computers in the zero hundreds, not in the six hundreds with the rest of technology? It's a folklore, is it folklore? Is it mythology? Does it go in the 200s with the religion stuff? Or does it go in the 398s? Where does it go? There are some geographies, some of them we had in sports and some of them were in the 920s. It was really confusing. And so I thought we should maybe try to find something a little bit different. The one con, if you can call it that, was that it's not a traditional method for a library. So when the adults would come in, they'd be like, wait, where is what I'm looking for? Because they're looking for a dewy section and we don't have dewy anymore. So I usually tell patrons it's kind of like a bookstore and they find that a lot easier to understand. It's, oh, okay, like a bookstore, right? So in the bookstore, I would look for this book here and then they look for that section. So when I decided to do this, I started looking for other systems that we could use. And there was the Sears headings. We could use those. We could use Library of Congress subject headings. And then I came across BISAC and I just looked up this week what that actually stood for because I kept forgetting to look it up. It stands for the book industry standards and communications. So I'm pretty sure this is actually the system your bookstore is also using. And we decided to go with that system because it seems to be the most robust and it seemed to include everything we needed. But then we had to decide, were we going to stick to that model rigorously, like use it, you know, you can only put things in the sections that are there, or were we going to adapt it on the local level. And one of the examples of our adaptations on our local level is our growing up section. There was a section in BISAC called Boys and Men, and there's a section called Girls and Women. And that was all very well and good, but why were all the adventure books in the Boys and Men section? And all the books about emotions and learning to deal with people were in the Girls and Women section. And then where do I put the book on transgender role models and pioneers? That was not an easy one. So what I ended up doing was just creating this section called Growing Up. And all of those books that would have been in those two categories then went there. So we have what's happening to my body for boys. We have Welcome to Your Period. We also have Boys Book of Adventure and the Girls Book of Adventure and the transgender role models, and what was Stonewall and that sort of thing, all in this one section. So they can learn about all of that different stuff that they deal with while they're growing up. You want to also figure out when you're, when we're doing it, what subcategories are we going to use? How many subcategories are we going to use? Never forget the general subcategory because sometimes you get a book that just really doesn't fit into any of the subcategories. General is the miscellaneous subcategory. That one is very useful. Then once you've decided what you're doing, what you're going to do for your categories and your subcategories, how are you going to organize within those subcategories? So there's always no organization and just stick them all in there and people can scan through. If you've got a small enough section, it does work. You could alphabetize by author or you could do what we decided to do and alphabetize by title, because in most cases, aside from some very prolific authors, James Patterson, the title is the most prominent thing on the spine. So it's a lot easier for patrons when they're on looking at the shelf to try and find things. This picture is not exactly the best example of organizing within subcategories because it's our true crime section and it doesn't have a subcategory. But you can see there the alphabetization by title going on on that shelf. So then how are we going to label the books and what's it going to look like? So you can see in this picture on the right here, this is our body, mind and spirit section. Well, clearly that whole thing does not fit on the spine label. So we just have it labeled as body. And it just says body in the catalog because that way people know exactly what they're looking for on the label. We did temporary labels. You can see in some of these labels are running vertically, some are running horizontally. The ones that are running vertically in the use of Psybook is a very good example. This is one of our temporary labels. I literally typed out the labels on a sheet of paper and cut them out and taped them to the book with Scotch tape. They're taped over the existing spine labels so nothing will be damaged. But we didn't want to change everything and then realize we had a bad label on something or we were going to change a category and have to go back and redo it all over again. Spine labels are expensive. We didn't have that kind of money. So we just used the paper, typed it out on paper, cut out the squares and taped them to the spines. At some point will I go back and put permanent labels on them? Maybe? It depends. A lot of these books will probably end up getting weeded out on our weeding system before we get that far. On the left-hand side here, you can see the labels we put on the shelves. Those were the temporary labels that sticky behind them is removable so we could peel it off and move it as we needed to. And those stayed on the shelves for probably about two years after we relabeled everything and ditched Dewey because we wanted to make sure that this was what we were going to use. Nothing was going to change. And then eventually we went ahead and bought these slider labels here that we use now. One of the things, please learn from my mistake, change the spine labels and the catalog at the same time. That was a lot of fun. Somebody came in looking for a book and we'd already changed the location on it and then we had to figure out where it was now. So do remember to change your spine labels and your catalog at the same time. You're going to need at least one book cart in order to do that. Once we had the labels and we were figuring this out, how long is it going to take you? Well, I'm a solo librarian so it was just me working on it 30 hours a week. Okay, maybe more like 35, but it was only working on it basically when I was supposed to be here and working and such, aside from a little bit of extra, whatever. And it took me about a month to do both the juvenile side and the adult side. So it could take a week or two to do one or the other of those sections depending on how many are working on it, depending on how big the section is. I started completely coincidentally doing the kids section right before school started for the year, which meant that I didn't actually have a lot of kids coming in and getting books because they were all getting ready to start school and then for that first week or so of school, I don't see a lot of the kids because they're getting settled back into their routine and there's not a lot of research going on and so they don't really come in a lot. So that really helped. If you can identify a point where there's a lull in your patrons coming in, that's a great time to do it because obviously there's not as many people looking for the books that you're moving all over the place. I highly recommend starting either at the beginning or the end of the section. So starting with art and architecture or starting with true crime and my collection, those are the beginning and the end. Start there. Start pulling the books off. Start moving them, shifting them. There will be a lot of shifting items on the shelf. So if you've got somebody who can't really lift the books, put them on the computer to put loon labels on or something like that because there's going to be a lot of shifting and moving books on the shelf. As a very big note, you will be constantly adapting the system. I just this week added four new subcategories for a bunch of books that I got. Last week I took these books that you can see on the screen and I decided, you know, it's silly that all the computer books are in a separate section and they're not under technology because that's where people are looking for them. They're looking for computer books under technology. And so I took all of these books and I changed them and I made a subcategory under technology or computers because that way the books were where the patrons were looking for them. And that is the biggest thing I always tell people when they're doing this, when in doubt, ask. But don't ask other librarians. Don't ask your coworkers. Ask the target audience. If it's a kid's book, ask kids. If it's a teen book, ask the teens. If it's an adult book, ask the adults. And one of the things I discovered was don't say, where would you put this? You say, where would you look for this? And then give them a here or there type of, you know, give them a multiple choice. Here are the different possibilities. Where would you look for it? One time I did not do that. At the point where I did my kid's section, my nieces were eight and 12. So they were right in my sweet spot. So I was like, anytime I had a question, I asked them. One of the bisac categories for kids is curiosities and wonders. And I thought, well, that's an interesting sounding section. What's in it? Well, what was in it was things like Bermuda Triangle, Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, fairies, magic, that sort of thing. And I thought, okay, I don't know a whole lot of kids that would call that a curiosity. That's kind of an adult label for that section. And so I said to my nieces, I said, girls, what would you expect to find in a section called curiosities and wonders? And I said, well, I don't know, like maybe books about why is the sky blue or how does the phone work? Things they're curious about. So I said, okay. Where would you look for a book about the Bermuda Triangle or Bigfoot or magical things that happen in the world? Well, I don't know this dumb, like maybe strange stuff. And so instead of the curiosities and wonder section, we have a strange things section, strange places, strange magic, strange creatures, that sort of thing. And that's, you know, that was a category that we just made up, but it works. We had this book on wind power. Okay, this is alternative energy. Where would you look for it? So I called my nieces and I said, okay, girls. This is the title of the book. It's about like using windmills to make electricity and stuff. Would you put it under technology and power or technology and energy? And they said, well, we would look for that under technology and energy. Okay, great. So now all of my alternative forms of energy are under technology and energy. Just yesterday, I had a book called Living Simply, a Teen Guide to Minimalism. And my older niece is now 16, going on 17. Good gracious, they grow up so fast. And so I called her or I sent her a message and I said, okay, would you put this book in the health section for teenagers? Or would you put it in self-help? And she came back to me and she said, I would, I would look for that in self-help. Okay, great. So we'll put it in self-help. That's where it ended up. So ask the people that are going to be looking for it. Where would you look for this? And they'll give you an answer and then it goes there. And if you find that people are, you know, maybe looking for it in a different place, you can always move it to a different place. This is very fluid. So initially, I had a few questions. Jennifer, I have a question about that, about the wording. I was noticing that earlier when you're talking about the bisac, it seems like they use some, what I would describe, antiquated wording. I mean, curiosities and wonders. It sounds like some, yeah. Sounds very British. Yes, yeah, and that's something that has been written in a long, long time ago. So is bisac updated regularly with newer terminology? I mean, how is that, how is the system, do you know how the system itself is? I don't actually know. I haven't looked into much how it was created or where it was created. Because I know Dewey and Library of Congress sometimes they make changes to how people should use, you know, to turn things. And I'm not sure if bisac does the same thing. I haven't seen any changes, but I also, once I got my basic list set up, I really only go to their website and look things up when I'm really not sure where to put it. So I don't think like this, you make it locally, you know, specific to what you have and what you're. Yeah, that's generally what I do when I come up with something and I'm not really sure I just make the decision locally. Since I don't really have to answer to anybody for it, I can just put it where I wanted to go. Yeah. In the beginning, I did have some complaints from the adults, because they were unused to this system and it confused them. Their favorite section used to be in this shelf. And now it's over there. But I did have several people say to me recently, you know, when you first did this, I didn't really like it. But now this is awesome. I really like this. On the kids side, my circ stats jumped noticeably, because now the kids could come in and find things on their own. They didn't need my help to find the books about space. They were right there. Oh, that reminds me. Space is one is the one thing that is in two different places in BISAC. But it seems to work with stars, planets, things that are physically in space. It's under science and astronomy for space travel for people going into space for satellites for all that kind of stuff. It's under technology. And even on the kids can understand that division and know that if they're looking for a book about planets, they go to science. If they're looking for a book about astronauts, they go to technology. That makes sense. And it seems to make sense to everybody. I've never had anybody get confused about that one. So there's the one section that is split and by SAC, but it's a very clear cut division. Some people did answer my question. They said that the BISAC codes are updated annually by members of their subject codes committee. They do add categories and make some changes. So they do review it. So when you have time, you go back to it. You probably do find something new. Yeah, possibly. Yeah. So one thing I do want to like the shelf labels that you put on the shelf, you are going to have to point them out to patrons for some reason. I just don't see them. I don't know, maybe mine are too small. I don't know, but I generally take people to the shelf and, you know, the first time they're looking for something, I'll take them over to the shelf and I'll say, Okay, so here's what this, you know, this is the section and I'll show them the shelf label. And I'll explain to them kind of how things are divided up and how they're, you know, alphabetical within their topic and whatnot. There are a few. I do have most sections that I have in my library are just the category and the subcategory. You can see on this picture, I do have a few like biographies. History is another one where there are more than two lines to the spine label. Biographies, they're divided by how we know that person. So I have entertainment. I have journalists. I have literature. I have memoirs. That's a huge section in my library. Politics, sports, social activists. I do have a women's category that just kind of there's a lot of stuff out there that it's there because they have a biography because they're a woman doing whatever it is they're doing. And then in the history section, I have, in military history, I have worldwide wars. So World War One, World War Two, Korea, Vietnam. I'm trying to think Persian Gulf, Iraq war, that kind of stuff is in there. And then I also have US history and then that's subdivided out by centuries or Civil War, Revolutionary War, that sort of thing. So there are some groupings where I have several subcategories basically. And the biographies I use that third line is that cutter line is the last name of the subject of the biography, not the author. So that's how we do that. And then I have here on the slides, this is the bisac page. There is a search box up here so you can search something and it'll come up like if I put in nature. It'll come up and it'll show you it does also give you any, you know, like here there's a like some kind of corporate document that includes that word. But here you've got the adults, there's actually a category called nature. In kids, here's, you know, some of the places that might be in young adult, here's some of the places in my library, we don't have a separate young adult section. So in my library, all of the young adult headings are the adult. I use the adult ones and I just put YA on top of it, because I figured the teenagers should be starting to use the adult section for their research, et cetera, anyway. But so here's your your bisac headings list. And these these are all of the adult categories that you're seeing. There is a separate tab here for juvenile and for young adults. So you can see once you go into them, you can see all of the different breakdowns is just choose sports for the for the heck of it. You can see all their different breakdowns and different things that they have, you know, baseball bowling boxing cheerleading, all that kind of stuff and you just basically when I when I was going to set up my system. I went to the shelf with this list and I went to the sports section and I said, okay. Which headings am I most likely to need to need. And so we have baseball basketball football. I think I have ice hockey I have the Olympics, which also I put the Paralympics in there as well because it's kind of a that all happens at the same time of year. So there's stuff like that in there. That just, you know, kind of covers everything. And then if I need to I create a new category when it comes time for it. So that's the bisac. And then I've also included on my slides. My list. So you can look at my list anytime you want. Feel free to send me questions and whatnot. There are several tabs here. This is the juvenile section so you can see the different headings or categories and subcategories we use. Go down to history here so you can kind of see here's the, you can see the military Iraq Korean Persian now on the spine label. You can just say history military Iraq history military Korean, because there's just not if you put Korean war on there then it wraps around the spine label and it's hard to read, especially on the kids side. You know history us 18th century anything that happened in the 1700s is in that section. So it's the Revolutionary War and then it has its own section. We have a lot of, or several underground railroad books because it went through this area so that has its own section in my library. The adult nonfiction tabs same thing, just all the different categories and subcategories and like I said, on the spine it just says biography, science, and then like Franklin for a biography of Benjamin Franklin. Is his body astrology, you know, not the whole things not there. My young adult tab is here because we have a separate section for careers that's mostly aimed at the young adults. So that I have broken out into different, you know what they are so I could make sure I was putting them all in the same place. And there's a few other tabs here that you can ignore if you're not dealing with easy readers picture books and genre finding those things. But that's those are my things and then my contact information and clearly I did not run through this. Either I talked really fast or I ran through this a lot faster than I thought it was going to so I guess I'm open for questions now. No, that's fine we have plenty we have lots of questions coming in yes absolutely. Thank you Jennifer yes. If you have any questions that I already got a bunch here I'm going to pull up here and go through. Please do go ahead and type into the question section. Let's see here. Alright, ooh, we even have comments from some other lives you've done it to so this will be great to hear how it's going elsewhere. And someone did ask and I know we don't know this answer. I know that about. Do we know how many libraries in Nebraska, or from because that's where I am or in the US, you are using bisac now as a book you know like who has ditched, do we. Yeah, I do know we've had some libraries in Nebraska do it and talk about it on webinars or at our conferences. Part of the reason I signed up to do this talk was that I had talked to via Facebook via various lists serves. I think I had talked to about five libraries in the last six months that were looking to maybe change things up a little bit and see if this was maybe something they wanted to do and I thought, you know what let me put it out there and see if a few more people might be interested in doing it so that I'm not repeating myself 50 million times. You know so it was something that that is a hot topic right now. And there are a lot of people looking at it and looking into doing it. Yeah. How long ago did you start making this change at your library. I mean you talked about your nieces who've grown up since you've been working on but how long has it been. I think it was about four years ago that I did it. Because it's been about six years that I've been here so so yeah I think it was about four years ago that I did it and, and like I said it was a long process it took, you know, at least a month to do it all. I think it was just John refining the chapter books and the picture books and everything else all at the same time so it, not exactly sure how long it took but it was it was about a month I think to to get it all done, because there was a lot of you know, shifting and moving and then somebody would come in and need something and I'd have to go help them with it because, like I said I'm a solo so somebody needs something I have to do the work. So, of course, yes. How many books are in your collection that you did this for me had at the time. I think I had about 8000 books total at the time. So I'd say probably about three to 4000 ish. I'm up to about 6000 I think in my nonfiction sections at this point. So it's somewhere in that four to 6000 would be my guess. I'm not exactly sure how many we did but it was, it was a lot. So you mentioned genrification to and you mentioned that and I know you were in one that commented to on the previous session about it, how. So you were so this is kind of like that to I mean it's, it is very generous but it's using a specific categorization system that's out there to do it. How did that work because it sounds like you did general genrification with the kids and then use bisect for everything else. Yeah, it was all work together. It was a lot of just changing things into large groups. Because bisect doesn't have things for kids will you mention the. They do have they do have. Let me look. I don't remember what the bisect section looked like on that for fiction they do have a fiction section both for you know for all of them. Let's just look at it. I see there's young adult fiction young adult nonfiction. Yeah, look at the juvenile fiction one just for a minute. Or just make up your own. I think I did I think I did use it because I have an action and adventure I have animals. I have what else do I have in fiction. I've been I went very broad with my fiction categories because my my fiction section in the kids side is not that big. I do have a comic section. I actually used some of these fiction categories for the picture books. To try to group those together. So there's a lot of different categories here I used I think I use those the bisect categories more for picture books than I did for the others let me. These are my picture book categories that I used and I start at the top of the list so if it's a Christmas book it goes in Christmas. I don't care if it's Pete the cat it goes in Christmas. You know, so I run down. This is actually just. Yeah, that's okay and whatever. So I'll just run down I just I just run down this list and I pick, you know, whatever is the big overarching topic of the book and put it in that section and those actually have the picture books in my library have pictures on the spine and then I have them in wash tubs. And there's a picture on the front of the tub so they can match it and in theoretically they'll end up back in the same bin if a kid decides not to pick it doesn't always work that way but. I always have to show them like see there's this picture here on the front and there's a picture on the spine and it goes in that. Oh, then I end up with a lot less mistakes but yeah so there's there's a lot of that same kind of thing so was it was a lot of basically just saying you know what. All of this number stuff that we're using isn't making sense to people you know the picture books were all lined up with the spine showing out and they just wanted to the cat books will. There's like three authors for Pete the cat books. You know there's who knows how many authors for Thomas the tank engine books. You know so they were just looking for those things and let's put them all together in one spot and I could just put them all put all the Pete the cat under the deans because they are the primary authors or put all the curious George under Ray. Or I could just make a whole curious George been and put all the curious George books in there. I can make a Pete the cat been and put all the Pete the cat books in there. I can tell people looking for Thomas to look under trains. Because chances are good. If they're looking for Thomas the tank engine. They'll check out the other train books too. They may be into trains and that may be the idea. You know so it just was kind of taking everything and grouping it by by subject by by topic. These are the genres we use for the the fiction action animals fantasy historical large print has its own. It's not its own section but it gets a strip of that so if it's a fantasy book that's large print, it has a yellow strip and a pink strip on it. On the adult side if it's a if it's a Christian fiction I have a few that have a lot it's a Christian fiction it's also a mystery and it's a large print. It has a yellow stripe a green stripe and a pink stripe and it's a hot pink the tape I got is like fluorescent so it sticks out on the shelf and for my people that are you know harder visually you know have a harder time seeing things that hot pink it sticks out really well and so they can see it and they can find the books that they can read really easily so. So yeah we have everything labeled with the different strips of tape and have the kids section at the top and the YA and the adult section at the bottom there and I never separated the adult section into the different genres. So I made a tape on it and eventually decided that you know what, having the separate sections on the kids side was taking up more space. Once I put all the that genre stuff back together, I then had room for the JS, which is the starting section so your magic tree house your Junie B Jones, things like that that are a little easier chapter books to ease you in from easy readers up to full chapter books was. I actually had room for that section then so I was able to do that. So you did, you did do both fiction and nonfiction. Yes. Yeah, the questions I've been getting most recently were about do we so I figured stick to stick to nonfiction with this presentation mostly and have questions they can always email me about whatever it is so. So on your spreadsheet there. Someone is I was saying I saw it to wanted to know and you explain the color codes you did for the easy reader I saw there was an easy and it had like. Yes, there. How did you how is the how is that. Um, I leveled it. You're. Yeah, explain. They're levels. We have level one is your, you know, you're really starting to read kind of thing level to, you know, a little more advanced. I remember if I put the description. Yeah, there we go. Beginning to read reading with help. Easy compound words. They need less help when they get to level three it's more compound sentences and that sort of thing. And then JS is the starting chapter book section and that's they don't really don't need help it's a much longer sentence and I was getting confused when I was doing it and ending up with different. Different companies, you know, easy readers in different sections. So I just like wrote out if it's a DK reader and it's pre level one, it goes in my level one if it's on a one from them it goes in my level two if it's a hello reader level one. It is a level one, you know, so that that way I could have a good idea of where things belonged. And then there's a few things like Henry and much Mr. Potter and Tabby that you know elephant and piggy that always go in one section so that. They're all together in that one section and I don't in my picture books and easy readers. The only organization is it's an animal book, or it's an easy to. So there's four tubs over there of level two. If I'm looking for one specific level to book because somebody interlibrary loaned it. Yes, I have to flip through all four bins of level two to find it. But that way I don't have to worry about. Oh my gosh this level two, you know, author E is in the level to author P been I don't care it's. It's all in level two and it's a lot easier for patrons that they're looking at it they're like, I don't want this one after all oh it's a purple book I can just put it back in one of the bins it's labeled with the purple. So it's a lot easier for patrons to just put something back that they decide they don't want. And I generally generally, like I said generally end up with a little less confusion of you know putting things back in the wrong place doesn't always work that way but generally. You do what you can. Yes, yes. Let's see here other questions I'm sorting through here. So, one of our librarians here I knew this was one are you were asking about libraries we've done it. I'm here in Nebraska or Seward Memorial Library did this back in 2007. I knew there were some previous ones. I also know of a couple of libraries have done this over the years. I've been doing this conference every year for those of you may or may not know I do a weekly online webinar show called and compass live. Every Wednesday morning and I've had a couple of sessions over the years one in 2014 and one in 2018 about libraries ditching Dewey or one said killing Dewey. And I don't know if district library library in the parchment Michigan Community Library. So, there are other ones out there has been happening for a long time but it's. I think it's it's a some of them like it's a slow process for many of them to do it because it's something you've been doing for so many years and how do you make this big change. We still have any presentations even though some lives have done it like ours back in 2007. People still need you know is it okay. Can I do it. How am I going to do it. We actually did. Like I said I started it during the school year for the kids, and we, every year for during summer reading we have different like searches around the library and scavenger hunt type of things. But not next year what I did is I said like, I would say like these books are in the, you know, this, this thing that you need to find is in the fantasy section. Go. And then they had to go find the fantasy section and find the little thing and then kind of help orient them a little better to where things were at in the library. So we're paying attention to how people were what people were calling things so now we don't actually have a kids nonfiction section we have the fact book section. We have the chapter book section. We have the picture book section we have the, you know, the beginning chapter book section. I call it j s I call I still call it easy readers even though on the shelf it's labeled beginning readers because they don't want to be told that what they're doing is easy because it's not. No, yeah, they want just to have something they can do yeah. And we have some other libraries mentioned that they did this to actually one of our speakers this afternoon is going to be on this afternoon Julie Elmore from the Oakland City Columbia Township Public Library in Indiana is mentioned is commented here that they ditched we I told the complainers in 10 years of being here I've never had one person come in and ask where the 645 books were, but tons of asked where the cookbooks were. I mean, that's, that's what people do they don't that they say I have the thing I want I don't know or care what number it goes to. Well, eventually our biggest complainer came back and said it was the best thing because they found more items. Well, and I'm a crafter, and I also have celiac disease so I have to have a gluten free diet, and the nearest larger library still uses Dewey. And when I go in there, I have to look in the 745, like 746 point whatever it is for knitting and crochet, but I also have to look in 746, because some of the books are there because that's what the doing number was that they were when I'm looking for a cookbook I have to look in general cookbooks and then I have to find the specific one that covers, you know, specialized diets. Well here, they're all under crafts and knitting or crafts and crochet or whatever it is and then I have cooking and special diets. Yes, you're going to find diabetes mixed in with gluten free or dairy free or whatever else it is. But it's all there in one section you don't have to go to three different places to find everything. It's just said that they check, they're able to check the bisac categories on Baker and Taylor's website. Yes, make figuring out so there's other places that are also using these that you can also refer to to see if you're trying to try to figure out where to put. Yes, Baker and Taylor does do that they have the bisac headings on their listings so I can look at it and go. Oh, that's where that would be and then I can, you know, actually keep a list on I have a list of all the books that are coming in and I have little notes next to them where they should go so that's really useful. So let's see. Oh, we did that one. So how are these, someone said how the book displays helping circulation I think you did mention there was a. There was a significant jump in the kids side because the kids could find the books on their own they didn't need me to tell them where they were. And they're a lot easier to do. I've generally found that what actually helps circulation is putting books face out on the kids side at least. On the adult side, I have people that will come in and they've literally read through my entire memoir section because that's all they like, or they spend a lot of time in my history section because that's what they like. So I have the people that will read certain, you know, certain topics that's where they go straight to there and they're able to find it and look at all the different you know I have people that I have one particular guy that would read everything political that I had. And he had read all of the political biographies I had. I realize that we had other books on politics, or that there was a whole. We have now if you want that we've got political biographies. We've got a section in the history section of the US. That's political and that's things like, you know, books that cover a specific president's term and office, or, you know, specific political event that happened. We have the actual politics section where all of the books on, you know, opinions and all of our, like the Illinois blue book, that's our state government guide and all that kind of stuff is actually in politics. And he was like, I didn't even know this stuff existed because it was different than do we wise and so he comes in and said, the first time he came in, after we did this he said, where are the books on politics and I said, you know, there's three places you can find them. Here's politics. Here's the history of politics in the US. And here's the biographies on politicians and he was just like, Wow, this is awesome. You know, that makes so much sense. Any more books that he could look at now that would cover the topics he was interested in. I have another question here. Just got a couple more here before I want to wrap up I think you said you you're asking your users for their input. And for children do you want to know do you ever ask kids who are neuro divergent on where they would look for things. So people, kids children who are potentially on that spectrum as they say, do you have any children like that who you would ask to see if they would think of it differently. I actually am still trying to get the kids to come into my library a lot I don't know of many of them in my community we are very small minutes. I think the population of my township which is what my district covers is 1327 now. Pretty small. And I don't know of a lot of them but I, there's a couple of kids that yeah I will ask them I'll say you know, where would, where would you look for this book. What would you know would you look under this or this. I asked my nieces a lot simply because they're available to me, but they're both aging out of that age group for the kids. Usually what I'll do is I'll ask the kids who do come in and use the library a lot where would you look for this book. And I'll, you know, and I'll, I'll see from them. I, there's a couple of them that I suspect might be somewhat neuro divergent. I don't know for sure and I'm not going to ask. Yeah, unless they actually say that to you don't know. Yeah, but I have, I have had kids and teens in the past that that seem to maybe be and yeah I'll ask. Basically, if I get a book now and it comes in and I'm like where's this going to go. I'll ask the first kid that comes in the door. Whoever you say next year. Whoever comes in the door if they're going to fit the demographic for this book that you know the age range for this book, where would you look for this book. And if I can't like if nobody comes in and I'm like I got to get this book on the shelf. I've got a couple of families here in town that have kids at that age range and I'll just, I'll just email mom and say, Hey, so I've got a book about this could you ask the kids would they look for it here or here. And they'll, you know, they'll get back to me about where their kids would look for it. Yeah, I'm getting a few more kids back in now but it's, it's pretty quiet as far as the kids go around here. One last quick question. What I'll ask you use if you mentioned that what you're using and how. Okay, I'll see. And a lot one of the questions I get a lot is well how do you put it in the catalog if it's the catalog doesn't care if it's numbers or letters. No, so you just put it in however you would put it on the spine so you know a book on on Apollo 13 goes into the catalog is J technology space, or on the adult side technology, you know, you can say, Astronautics, because we can use big words with the adults, you know, and so that's, you know, it just that's what it says in the catalog. When I had, when I had the kids chapter books, John or fight it said J F fantasy, and then the rest of what would normally be the call number. When I reintegrated those for space reasons, I just went in and took out the fantasy because it was no longer needed. All right, thank you. I think, yeah, we'll wrap up your session. Thank you so much Jennifer I just like to say, I think it's great that you are using your nieces and bringing them in as and hopefully maybe they'll become librarian librarians and training maybe. Maybe one of them decided she wants to be a teacher. That's close. Sure. The 13 year old hasn't decided what she's going to be yet but you know, but definitely that's that's the way to get bringing the new generation to show them how we do things in the library and how that they can be involved in it. Yeah. Awesome. All right, so thank you so much Jennifer. This is a great session. I hope some people I've got you got less comments saying they're they're looking interest in their library and they are really love hearing how others have done it. So that's great. That's why we're here. Anybody has questions you can always email me. Yep, yep, reach out to Jennifer if you do have anything. All right, thank you so much. Jennifer, I hope you stick around and watch some of the rest of us of the conference today. All right, so.