 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 127 and this is part two. Did you say, did you say 127? I did say 127, shocking. Sorry to interrupt you, off you go. So this is part two on our podcast around top therapy books. So last time we did Staring Into the Sun and TA Today and you gave it, you know, a title that you said is the best book on... My most popular book, the one I enjoy the most. Yes. Go on, hit me with it. What is it? It is TA based again, I know, but I have been a transactionalist for 37 years, so you're going to have to forgive me. But this is a book that really appeals to me. I can tell you now. It's Counseling for Totes. Love it. By Roger DeBoard, B-O-A-R-D. And it's written 35 years ago. Wow, is it? It's way back in time. Yeah. Roger DeBoard. And... See, the fact that it's written around winding the willows means that it's timeless, really, isn't it? Because it's not talking about life 35 years ago, so it's irrelevant now. It's... I think it could even be longer. Right. I remember reading it in the 90s. So I don't know when the first edition was. I like it. It appeals to my child ego state, TA terms again. On normal terms, it appeals to my younger self. Yes. Yeah. And it's around very popular stories for children. Yes. And for those people who haven't read Wind in the Willows, never mind. You don't need to know what that's about. You don't need to know what it's about. Absolutely. But Counseling for Totes gives it away. It's about going to counseling. Yes, it's about totes going for counseling. And I like it for money, money reasons. One, it's a very accessible, fun book, which explains the transactional analysis model, if you like, a parent, adult, child, and other things in a very fun way. Yeah. Now, it's about four major characters, the Heron. If you remember Wind in the Willows, but even if you don't, I'm going to talk about the four major characters, the Heron, who was the counsellor in the story, who is the counsellor. Yeah. Toad, which is the client. Yeah. Ratty, which is a sort of member of the pack, which hands out. And the fourth ones, lift my mind at the present moment. But they hang around. And basically, they have lots of adventures. Yeah. This book is, I think, underneath the title, you know, about Counseling for Totes is a psychological adventure. And that's basically Toad. I don't want to give away the whole book. So I'm not, I'm just going to talk about the thing. It starts off with, is it Maul, the other character? Maul. That's the fourth one. Toad and his kind of old disheveled and depressed. Yeah, Maul, that's that's right. Yeah. Basically, Toad is depressed. I mean, there's lots of things in the book, which I'm not going to go into. But basically, generally, he gets depressed. Yeah. And Heron, who's a counselor in this whole story, Toad decides to go and see Heron, who's the counselor for depression. Yeah. So, but it comes, I think, from the intervention by Ratty and Maul that the Toad should have some counseling. So it goes along and has counseling for depression. And that's basically, but that's sort of really going and being a spoiler for the whole book. That's what it's based on. And Heron is a TA counselor, of course. So it's very educative, this book, because Heron, of course, besides other things in the counseling, explains parent-adult child model in a way of helping Toad understand when he's in child, adult, and parent, and how the past affects the present. In the way that it's done, it's lovely because it's a story as well as... It's a story. Yeah. The information so you can enjoy it as a story. Absolutely. I love stories. You could call me a narrative therapist if you wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. And this is a story. Getting on audible if you wanted to. Yeah. I know you have. Recently downloaded it, yeah. Yeah. When I listened to it again, which is about two years ago, I also listened to on audible. Yeah. And it's a story first and foremost. Yeah. It appealed to my younger self when TA was childing a study if you wanted to that way. And it was wonderful to see the intervention by the two friends. So Toad went to Heron for casting. It's got a good ending, which I always like good endings. I like a good ending as well. I listened. I was saying to you when we were offered that I listened. I downloaded it and I started listening to it. And I just listened to the first couple of chapters. And I found it really interesting that at the first meeting of Heron, the therapist and Toad, Toad said his friends had said he needed to come. And Heron said something about, so who am I giving therapy to? Is it your friends or is it you? Yes. And I've come across that in a therapy session where somebody said I've been told to come. So I thought that was really interesting. And I can remember when I read the book first time round, I probably didn't really pay attention to that. Well, you start because Heron, what I also like about this book is Heron sets good boundaries. Absolutely. Very healthy boundaries. Yes. And also healthy contracts. And the ending is good as well. But first and foremost, it's a child. It's first and foremost, it's a story that I think would appeal to the younger self. And it's very accessible to read. Yeah. But hidden amongst it and weaved in amongst it are lots of good, you know, TA things and you know, how to be a therapist and a counsellor in it. Yeah. Very, very cleverly. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Very, very cleverly written. Because it's also written in the form of Wind in the Willow's story. So you're right. The good work you said it is interweaving in the story, the TA concepts and everything else. Yeah. Because he describes the way that Todd is dressed with his, you know, his little jumper and his goggles and all this sort of thing. And you can see the Wind in the Willows characters. But yeah, there's the psychotherapy and the counselling stuff in amongst it all, which is, you know, and yeah, I just think it's good that he's used animal characters rather than real people. And he explores the feelings and how, you know, the depression is visual in towards, you know, he's disheveled and he's not had a wash and all this sort of stuff. And I just, I thought it was, it's really good. Yeah. He's down in the dumps. He's having a challenging time. He is. And that's why his friends make an intervention. Yeah. And sending to counselling. Yeah. To make these interventions on the behalf of your friendships, that's great, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. The people noticed he went missing and they sort him out and then they found an advertisement for counselling. Yeah, it is. It's a really good book, Bob. Yeah, I like it. So it is. And I'm sure I don't know the date of the first edition, Counselling Photos by Roger DeBoard. Yeah. Another one on the list. Oh, yes. Make it, make it. No, just buy it. Or download it, if like me. Oh, audible. Yeah. I do like to just have it on when I go for a walk or whatever. I've got quite a few that I listen to over and over on there just while I'm out walking. Audible is my go-to. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Third book is the one that you mentioned. Well, I didn't know if I had it on the list I sent to you, but I don't think I did. But I do like the book. So over to you to introduce it. Transactional Analysis, Counselling in Action. The one that I've got is actually the fourth edition by Ian Stewart. Oh. Yeah. I like it because there's so much information in it. And again, there's like, you know, things for you to do. There's key notes and ideas and things like that, you know, all the way through it. Space for reflection, mapping the structure of problems. And it's TA, it's life scripts. There's diagrams, as always. Yeah. Really good. I mean, if I remember rightly about this book, it has lots of exercises and questionnaires and techniques. And it's very, it's good for people starting placements, I think, if I remember. When I got it in the early days, and I did follow a lot of what was in it, you know, effective contract making. There's lots of questions. Is the contract goal feasible? Is it safe? Do you know what I mean? The practical things about, you know, being. It's probably the most practical book he wrote in student about definitely. And students buy for those practical frameworks, you just talked about that. And specifically contract, contract making. I think in the early days, when you've not got the experience, the more information that you can have and step by step processes like this seem to be to me. Yeah, I thought it was really good. Yeah. And it's also not expensive, particularly, I didn't think when I bought it ages ago, came out about 15 years ago. I don't got lots of different editions. Ian Stewart's did lots of different editions about it. 15 odd years ago. What's it? What's the type developing TA in counseling, as it called? Well, development analysis, counseling in action. Transactional analysis, counseling in action by Ian Stewart. Whoa. No. I thought you said something about the same time as TA today. First edition published 1989, reprinted 91, 92 twice, and then 2004, 2006. So if I look at my TA Daybook here, which we're talking about in another podcast, that must go back before 1989 then. I would imagine to about 1985. Oh, here we are. No, no. I was right in the first place. It was first published in 1987 TA today. So you wrote this book just two years after that. I bet you anything, anything like, because I know Ian, that he wrote this book that we're talking about here, seemed to practical exercises to go alongside TA for today. It would make sense. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because it is full of practical exercises. There's part one and part two. Part one is the TA framework, where it's talking about the past and the present and the route to change, life scripts and everything. And then part two is the process of counseling with TA. So it takes you through the steps of counseling using transactional analysis. Well, it's called transactional analysis, counseling in action. So in action is the clue to practicalness of this book. Yeah. And I just liked it because I think, again, it's something that you can dip in and dip out of. If something comes up in a therapy session for you, you can do a bit of research on this. I loved it. Yeah. So the TA Day we spoke in the last podcast I think about, then this could be a good companion for people who are interested to take TA further, practically. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in the selections that you've come up with, Bob, I think there's a good mixture of the story side of things, like with the staring at the sun and the counseling for tours. But then the TA Day and the transactional analysis counseling in action are more practical things that you can use as a psychotherapist. I've done some things on your YouTube where you've looked at books. You're a wealth of information on so many books in this area. And I can't remember half of the books that I read last week, never mind, like you, with your 40 years of experience. I mean, with these books, I was trained, well, not extensively, but I was trained by Ian in Stuart, the reader of it. So I knew him, and I was trained by him slightly. So for me, there's a psychological continuity. Yes. Yeah. So that makes sense to me. But if you don't know TA or you suddenly if you don't know him, as I said, these two books, if you don't have a problem together, one, but one is very theory based, which I think is very important to know the principles of TA. And the other one, of course, is the practical side of transactional analysis, what you're talking about. And they're great books. Yeah. And again, again, though, you know, this book is a textbook. Yes. Yes. It's a practical textbook. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, even for me now, I like every so often to go back to the basics with things. You know, I'm, yeah, I don't know whether you can see behind me, but I still do the basics of TA, you know, to me, with the PAC system, with, with clients that I've seen for a long time, we'll go back and revisit it at different stages. So for me, I like, I like to go back and revisit things. Well, in the TODE book, I was, we were talking about, we both talked about, it's very educative. Yeah. We teach his TODE about the internalised parent. And TODE at the end realises it's actually not him. It's his parent speaking. How amazing is that in the format of a story about winding the willows and a toad? It's one of the most popular books sold onto you. But I do like the book you just talked about there. I like it because of its practicality. And I remember years and years and years and years ago looking at it in terms of making contracts with clients and many, many, many of the students buy it for its practical ability and structure. Yeah. Yeah. But it's good to have a basis and a foundation. I think it's also okay for us to put our own twist on things. But if we've got the basic foundation of contracts on what needs to be in it and how they work and then we can put our own bits in it. I think that's, that's good. Interesting books, Jackie. Absolutely. Absolutely. I was just looking around at all my books and I was looking for the Cousin TODE's book before I came on out. I can't find it. But I've got it somewhere, but I tend to lend my books out sometimes and they just never come back again. I've got over 2000 books on psychotherapy. I forgave myself. I forgave myself when I started to tell myself I couldn't find it. Oh, that's a good book. That's a good book. Scripts, People Live by Claude Steinem. We should say because not everybody can see, but yeah, Scripts, People Live. I've got, these are the ones I was talking about. Game, People Live by Eric Byrne. That I find a bit difficult to read. I'm okay. You're okay. Oh my gosh, you've got the real Bibles of TA there. I've got some classics, Bob, but I certainly haven't got 2000 books. That's a shooter. Well, I trained in extensively, extensively in three disciplines. Transaction analysis, psychoanalysis, and integrative psychotherapy, as well as doing counseling before that lot. But I've got really interested in existential psychotherapy. So... Is that lately, Bob? I know you were touching on this, you know, at the beginning, the last episode when we were talking about staring at the sun. Is that later in life for you that you've got more involved in the existential stuff? Yes, I think with the reading of Irvin Yalom, particularly, make you think about most issues, really, when it comes down to it, are about lack of control, existent issues, about a person's journey on the price, and of course, loss. Yeah, which, like I said, it's inevitable that we're all going to go through all those things, whether it's an existential crisis or whether it's just part of life. There's another very good book, which is, you could say, in the same thematic area of staring to the sun, but of course, was 30 years ago, was Eric Erickson's book, The Eight Stages of Men, which talks about the developmental stages that we all go through. Freud, even go back 150 years ago, talks about, of course, all the different stages of journey of a life that the human condition goes through, from birth, you know, all the way through, you know, right until death, of course. And we all have different developmental stages and different developmental tasks and different developmental themes that come up according to the phases of life that we're in. Now, I'm 72, nearly 73, so it would make sense to me, anyway, that some of the existential issues that would be raised in life would be in the later stages of development we're talking about. So there aren't new ideas, but I think that, specifically, I think, really, since my health problems that I've been, perhaps, I don't know, I've always been interested in this, drawing more to thinking about the, some of the existential issues that perhaps have come up. Yeah, maybe I need to grow up and start looking at existential things. I'm going to be a youngster, aren't you? You appear a youngster compared. No, I'm getting, I'm knocking on a bit now, Bob, but I do think when we're talking about existential things, I do think you need to be, this is my scripted stuff, you need to be of a certain intellectual level to be able to look at those. No, it is your stuff. Well, that's it. From what you're saying about that staring in the sun, I'm definitely going to read that because it's accessible and there's lots of metaphors in it. So I might come out the other side. Well, here's something to be raised. I don't think one of the issues I went to Thurbin was 35, but I know if you're a T8 person, you give to clients script questionnaires, there's questions on it, but just simply from my perspective, I share some, and people listening are all going to have their own views. But I always maintain and say to people that I'd like to be buried, not be cremated, for example. And I even know what I'll say on my tombstone, for example. So what I'm trying to say is that's a cognitive process. Yes. Underneath it all, though, there are feelings around why I would want to be buried and with feelings of what I'll go on the tombstone. There probably always had echoes of that throughout my whole life. Now, they might get triggered by crises and things that happen in life. And so in therapy, we're able to get to the feelings that perhaps have been repressed around many different things, like my early losses in life, for example, that start to come out later in life. Those are existential issues. Therapists might not term them as existential issues, and they are. Yeah. Maybe we need to do an episode around this, Bob. I'm sure we've spoken about it before, but maybe we need to do one with trigger warnings maybe for people that we're going to talk about all the deeper meaningful things. Well, the book you've just talked about, you know, developing TA, counselling and action is a very practical book at the other end of what we're talking about. But they are practical exercises to enable clients to go to deeper levels. Yeah, yeah. With a bit of a framework on how to do it, which I think, you know, when you're first qualifying, I think it's good to have that framework and that safety net, really. Oh, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. So, Bob, until next time, what are we doing? We've got two more topics, two more books. At least two more books. I don't know. I gave you at least 10 topics of books, sorry, 10 books. I can't remember if they are off our hands. Perhaps a quick one is none TA, but at least another podcast on important books. Yeah, until next time, Bob, when we'll do part three. Part three. We'll have to do part four after part three. Part three and part four of important books. Okay, Bob. Oh, one thing, by the way, what I didn't do on that list, by the way, was my book. Oh, I wrote a book because you're quite confused. I think we should do your book. No, there we are. No, well, but anyway, see you next week. Where can we get your book from? You can't now because it was privately printed. I've got any copies. I wanted to add a couple of thousand copies in 1986, and they just went. But what is happening is that I have decided to actually write the book that I've got, which is called, and the title is called Psychotherapy Cookbook. Love it. And the name. Your name, the ingredients, the bowl and everything. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I'm going to write this Psychotherapy Cookbook and I've realized the reason I haven't written it besides a lot of other things is my own, you know, defence systems just out there. But anyway, I'm now going to go out to a venue I've got, and I'm going to write the book. Bob, I want to, I want to sign the copy of the book when it comes out. Absolutely. And after that, I'm going to write a book called Transaction Asses Past, Present and Future. But I'm going to start off with this book. Well, there you go. You can't not do it now, Bob. You've said it. I've said it on air. It's out there in podcast land. Out there in podcast land. Out there in podcast land. Definitely. Right. We even need a timescale. When's it going to be out by, Bob, this year, next year? Well, I've got the venue. Steph's Clinical Wounds, which she doesn't use that much anymore because lots of different reasons. And I said to her, look, I think I need to get out of the house to write this book. So I'm going to start next week on Mondays. I've got cleared Mondays now. And I'm going to start the first K, first chapter, the introduction. Probably just before I do the podcast series with you. So I'm going to start on Monday anyway. Oh, brilliant. Can't wait for that one. You heard the ear first, folks. Yeah. Until next time, Bob, when we'll be doing part three and part four. What are these books? Okadokie. Bye-bye. Speak soon. Bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.