 Hello, this is I'm sorry. Let me both start. Let me start over. Hello and welcome to the digital free thought radio hour and W o Zio radio 103.9 LP FM here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We're recording this on Sunday morning, September 4, 2022. I'm Larry Rhodes or doubter five. And as usual, we have a co host one bed on the line with us. Hello, one bet. I am the one bat. Yay. And our guests today are the is the John Richards from England. Welcome. I can't compete with the one bat. Nobody can. Free thought radio hours to talk radio show about atheism free thought rational thought humanism and sciences. And conversely, we'll also talk about religion really just faith. God's holy books and superstition. And if you get the feeling that you're the only non believer in your town. Well, you're just not here in Knoxville in the middle of the Bible about we have a group of over 1000 of us. And we'll tell you more about that after the mid show break. One bet. What's our topic today? Let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about you and me. All the good things that and I forgot all the lyrics, but it's going to be interesting show today. Before we get into it, I have been sure to be nice to catch up on everybody. See how they've been doing. Larry. How you been? What's going on with you? I've been fine. Didn't ride my motorcycle yet this weekend, but I made this afternoon. Just playing games and working. Not bad. Not bad. Not bad. Not bad. Okay, cool. Pretty straightforward with me too. Like I said, I got a lot of car stuff done. We got a lot of equipment fixed up at work. We're all set up for buying new scientific toys at our laboratories and we're having vendors come in and be like, this is the latest and greatest piece of equipment. And there's so much cool gadgetry that exists in the world that you just have to like sit back and be like, how does it all work? What do we need? Cool to have. And then how do we make the business case argument for it so our higher level managers can get it? But it's a fun time to be a scientist. There's always like some new technology that's out there that we need to capture. Yeah. John Richard, how you been? Oh, go ahead. You want ideas for new technology? Watch the hacks videos. The hacks videos? What is this? Life hacks. Ah, life hacks videos. Yeah. Some string and a teacup. Yeah. Make a product after it. Okay. John Richard, what's going on with you, my friend? Everything's fine here. Thank you. I am. We had a very good free thought hour last night. Nice. With the return visit of Pastor Alan Cartwright. Right. The arguments. Yes, that's right. Yeah. He came on with his PowerPoint presentation to convince us that Christianity was the thing and he allowed us to challenge him. So that was fun. Okay. Oh, good. I imagine it was not supposed to be good because he was asking for more punishment, right? Like he needed clickbait so he can say, look at all these angry atheists holding me back. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Where can we watch that again? Just wait. Free thought channel. It's in the live section of videos. Oh, cool. Cool. And as we get started, I know Eric just or Bujo just showed up. Bujo is always good to hear from you as you get yourself set up. We'll get into intro for you. And let me stall three more seconds. Okay. He's here. Hey, Bujo. What's up? Hey, guys. Cool. We're just starting up with a, how's everyone been doing? Miles will check in with you. How you been doing my friend? Then okay. Then okay. Just got done from orange theory at the gym. So I'm a little sweaty. So. Or your band or orange theory a gym now what's going on here. Orange whip was the band. Orange leaf is the ice cream. Yeah. Any of those could make you sweaty. Okay. Very, very cool. Okay. So today we're going to be talking about a comment that we got on our YouTube page by cynical pressures. And it's a doozy of a comment. So I'm just going to go over real quick in three phases. First phase. I follow a few Christian influencers purely out of curiosity. This person's also an atheist who make YouTube comments about topics and answer questions from their viewers. And I've noticed probably 90% of the questions they asked are all about sex masturbation and lust. It's all sex, sex, sex, and some more sex. Some Christians like to call out sexual sins that others are committing while turning blind eye to other sins that they commit on the daily. What's the obsession with knowing about other people's sex lives and why are there so many Christians so invested in purity. And then I think these are the last two sections are really important for me from the push for virginity from a very young age to the obsession of the dreaded wedding night to adolescence being told to keep their lustful thoughts away. It almost feels as though they want to talk about sex in a nosy morbidly curious type of way. It's like their own passion and curiosity is burning a hole in their chest. So they just got to talk about it. What's talk about that then during the show. So a lot of topics here going on John Richard do do first impressions and then we'll be deep dive into the specifics of the comment itself. You quoted the word you use the word nosy from the quote in the text that the viewer sent in or listeners sent in. Yeah, and I'd like to reinforce that because my attitude is that these people like to stick their noses in other people's genitalia. Okay, okay. Any other general thoughts before we do a deep dive. Eric, do you have ideas of like the the concept of sex obsession with Christians, even as a taboo subject. Yeah, I've always felt it kind of goes contrary to human biology. It's it's an odd thing to. I think obviously there's some, some need to have people not masturbate, you know, when, when, you know, they're, they're younger and in older times it made sense, you know, you didn't want to waste the seed so to speak but waste the seed yeah yeah yeah. Now, nowadays so limited. We want all of our followers to have incredibly high blood pressure and like be very awkward around the opposite sex is very bizarre. Larry going ahead and win. Let's talk about that. The cinema man is what they talk about when they're talking about masturbation. Okay, it wasn't about masturbation it was about obedience to God. God wanted him to marry his brother's sister after his brother died and have children by her. Well, he did not quote finish inside or any finished himself basically. But that was in God punishment punished him but it was because he didn't know by God not that he did the masturbation thing. Wait a second, are you saying something even from there. That never happens because it seems like sex is the one thing that Christians forbid and without any biblical reason they have to manufacture reasons for John Richards get in here. I think I know the reason for that is because masturbation masturbation makes you deaf so of course he couldn't hear what God was saying. Okay, so this is this is a new blind. I heard blind. I've not heard deaf. So is that how it is in Europe. Did they say it makes you deaf in Europe is that the. Okay, okay, okay. So, yeah, I did my my general thoughts about this is it's never really about the thing that's forbidden. It's always the subtext and the subtext for me is always control. I'm trying to do whatever I can to control you. And so I will give you the silly barriers to jump over don't wear a fabric to two class don't wear purple don't eat shellfish on Sundays don't tie knots on this day of the week don't have sex in this way don't have sex in that way don't touch yourself this way. And you know you won't ever get them all you'll never you'll never be find a person who's truly following every single woman Bible because there's so many articulated points that you have to follow. But it's not about hitting them all it's about the willingness or the intention to do it because that gives me power as a person who's giving you the commands over you. And while you worry about falling on the rules. I'm watching you make sure you follow the rules and taking 10% of your paycheck at the end of the day. John Richards. Does does one sin cancel out another I mean, would it be all right to masturbate while merit wearing mixed fabric. Only if you film it I guess you'd be a problem there. So yeah, I think it's a best you have a control and if you look back at like Mesopotamia. There's not a lot of, there's not a lot of other stuff to do, aside from her cheap. The master base like what else. What are we really, you know, documenting people for so. Let's get into the nature of the question what's the obsession with knowing about other people's sex lives and why are Christians so invested in purity. I find that to be a particularly useful point. Eric, why are Christians invested in other people's sex lives. Why is purity such a big deal. Is it because it's awkward to talk about is it I mean the different societies actually, you know, obviously treat it differently, but and obviously it's changed quite a bit over the years, you know, some countries, Amsterdam, obviously is a little more open with with sexuality and then that's obviously grown. So as I've said, obviously like four times now, but that's changed kind of quite a bit over time. Okay is does it have something to do with gluttony like the the is there some like you're not supposed to, you know, eat all the sweets and stuff yourself at the same time so you're supposed to kind of limit the amount of good things you're doing so as part of it maybe, you know, it feels good, you know, but you know don't do it that much because it feels so good it's it's one of the sins right. Right, maybe, maybe maybe it ties somehow into that is it you're supposed to be limiting in in how often you have sex or masturbate or whatever I mean I wonder if that's part of it. Help me out so like non Protestant point of view you had Catholic upbringing, and I'm wondering like the old school Catholic appreciation of life here on earth is this is a testing ground to determine where you're going to go afterwards so like the pleasures you get here the pleasures for your body, or nothing compared to the pleasures you can have, if you get from God, and therefore any any way you are feeling good or resolving any sort of pleasure for yourself bodily wise. That's that's so substandard and and the root of the devil trying to, you know, pull you away from the true pleasure which is being one with God's word and his teachings and stuff like that is that. Does that sound familiar, or am I am I close to basis on that. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention in the church. What is more hardcore version than Protestant that's all. Yeah, obviously the Catholics have a whole issue with birth control and things which is another piece but the one thing that comes to mind and what you're saying, you know, orgasm is fantastic but talk to the guy who has an orgasm like every 30 seconds every hour. I think there's actually a real person a medical condition had a medical condition and it's miserable for that. If we're going to say, you know, heaven or the eternity or the afterlife is just more of of the wonderful things like like an orgasm here, then you're probably in for a little bit of hell then. That could be bad. Okay, okay. All interesting points we're going to go up to Larry listen. Why do people care or why do Christians care so much about purity virginity. Why is that such a big deal. Well, maybe it comes back to suffering is God like the closer you are to Jesus, don't do anything for pleasure, because it would lessen the suffering that you're supposed to go through here and it's like, I don't know. Like you give us a body that gets hungry and you tell us don't eat you give us a body that gets horny and you tell us don't masturbate or have sex you give us a body that, you know, gets thirsty like don't drink. Don't drink these things drink these things and just like, you're just making me suffer and it's like that's the point though because Jesus did that for you it's like I didn't ask him to. That guy Jesus he's very demanding isn't he I mean he first of all he he he wants you to love him and he came to set mother against daughter and father against son, so that he can have all your love for himself. He's honestly what's going on there. Yes, exactly. He can't take competition that's for sure, not even distraction as a competition I mean if you're pleasuring yourself. That's bad too, because it's not. You know, I also find the concept of virginity and the way how we use it at least in Western culture I won't I won't throw this out to Europe. But like it's a very toxic label that we give both girls and men, because for for men we use it as a form of conquest we we we define men based on their sexual exploits on a large part and it's shamed if they aren't a virgin flipside. We take women and we put them on a pedestal if they are a virgin, and we shame them if they aren't. And it's like, but and then also on the other flip side, if a guy wants to have sex with another guy, like if they game the system, we shame that as well and it's just like, well how if sex is happening someone's losing and someone's moving down on the pedestal and someone's moving up and every instance. You set up a whole racket where that's the case where every single time sex is happening, someone's going up and someone's going down regardless of how it happens. I'm sure there's been some polls done on this, because I'm sure I've read somewhere that if you interview men and ask them how many sexual partners, they've had it's always you know in double figures or more. And if you interview women from the same population, they've only had one. So, there's a mismatch somebody's not having it with somebody. I don't know what's going on. Absolutely. Eric, what's up. I think we left out one more group though when you kind of went through everyone's losing. I left out a lot of groups. If it's both women, I think everyone's winning and I think everyone agrees if it's two women it's, oh, it's lovely. So, so elephant in the room I got an asexuality flag here too there's also another step where it's just like hey if you don't feel sexual attraction people will look at that as if there's something wrong with you. The idea of like just not being sexually attracted to anybody is is abnormal when like that is also a normal state so that you could also have a group where when a guy likes a man and a woman who are bisexual and you can also have the other kind of sex square box where it's just not sexually attracted to anything else. I certainly love food and disc golf that's great to have music and all that stuff there's so much more cooler stuff than sex for me, but admitting that even in a public space seems abnormal. But it's also abnormal for me to have this outlook and then look outside and see two things one, a completely sex obsessed society where I can't even look at a Burger King commercial without it being on like a red carpet with like rose in the middle of it, or like a girl in a bikini, like driving a Buick truck, like on on in the middle of a desert and I'm like what is was being sold to me here this is very bizarre. But also on the flip side this very you know, conservative stance on sex, hosted by the most, you know, ubiquitous religious group that says sex is not something that you should use in a bad way or, or make a scene about yet it sold to us every single time I'm looking at like a Jesus on a cross with like the cut six packs pics, like he's got like abs got long flowing hair, and he's got blood nowhere on his face but like it's got to be like you know it's got to look pretty you can't make him look ugly come on he's got to be cleanly shape I'm like what what I'm not saying. I mean, the message is consistent I'm just saying like it could be if you just guys all got in a room and decided like sex is a good thing we're going to use it, or sex is a bad thing we're not going to use it, but don't use it, and then also say it's bad at the same time to because it just seems to make this very weird juxtaposition of ideals. I wonder if there's any marketing men who are also Christians because it doesn't go together does it. It doesn't. And like Mother Mary's like the big thing what about her, not the fact that she gave birth to interdimensional super high powerful being, you know that created the universe, it's the fact that she's a version. That's the number one thing everyone says Mary is like, that's very bizarre. That's a very bizarre things like I gave birth to the creators like yeah but you're also a version that's that's what's important about you. I also feel like pushing for Virginia to really young age could lead to a lot of problems to in the same capacity as not teaching people or not properly educating person about evolution leads them to have a lot of problems with science down the road since it's a pillar of psychology, not teaching them about sex, or how to have it safely leads to the problem of like unplanned pregnancies bad parents. Children that don't understand or get along with their parents because they're not talking the same language they don't express themselves in the same way. So the other one is the other one's far past it maybe going into different levels of, what's the right word for it, non sexual activity, so it's just like, get over it's fine it's like no mom this is the literally the only thing I can think about. What do you guys think about the push for virginity at a really young age by Christians, John Richards I'll throw it out to you first. Well it's not just Christians is it I mean, we have some Muslims in our country now. And there, in many ways they're even more extreme, because when you get to be eight as a, as a girl, you have to wear your hijab. You know, just the scarf. Because they're fearful for some reason weird reason that the sight of female hair could drive men into a sexual friends. I don't know what's going on in their minds but and so they keep everybody apart from then on. But of course, so sex is a big taboo until you're married. And up until then of course, as a woman in fundamentalist Islamic cultures, you have to go about in a tent with a man beside you. If you're allowed out at all. Yeah. And then once you are married, you're pretty much not allowed out anymore. Yeah. Yet, when you get to your afterlife, what happens, you get 42 virgins. Actually, I think it's raisins. I think it was a mystery. No, sir. I think it was a mystery. Yes, I've heard that. Only the boys who get 42 virgins raisins anyway, it's not the girls. Aaron push. Yeah, push for Virginia the young age or whatever. Yeah, yeah. So I think talking about Islam is probably a whole, whole another, another piece we can get into but but sticking with kind of western civilization. I think it's a, it's, it's so clearly to me kind of a backfiring effect. It's least certainly more recently. I mean, think about footloose when they were trying to ban dancing. Right. It's just, it's, you can't ban dancing. I mean, you, you, you make this taboo, you, you make it something you can't talk about. Right. I mean, it just, it enters into, yeah, early pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases. Just, just an unhealthy relationship with sex because you're, you're hiding it. You're, you're, yeah, yeah. Well, punishment is a form of control. I mean, if, if you're going along and you break some rule and you're supposed to be punished for it, then that gives more power to the person who's theoretically controlling the group. So the more rules you have to break. So the more rules you have to break and the ones that oppose the most human desires and urges, you know, the more likely that they will break the rules and punishment will will ensue. I also find that it pieces of the default or what is this presupposed default. So if someone says don't talk about atheism when you go outside, you're going to eventually assume that everyone's Christian, just by the virtue of the fact that everyone's got got one sided. Yep. They got Christian crosses they were proudly there's Christian radio stations, there's it's on some license tags on the framing, like it's everywhere you can't go outside at least once particularly where we live, you know, Kentucky and Tennessee, without seeing Christian iconography or reminders that there are Christians around everywhere from dollar general to license plate. Yeah, it's on everything and our government buildings is everywhere. But when they say don't talk about atheism because it's a taboo subject then you begin to assume that everyone is quiet even the people on this show could be Christian, and you have to like tippy toe around it. In the same sense, when they say hey don't talk about virginity don't talk about sex, then the attitude becomes well then I imagine that everyone straight, and that everyone I meet is a guy who sexually attracted women and every woman is this non-sexualized person who can't wait to have babies with me once they get married, right? Or that gay people don't exist or that asexual zone exists or that bisexuals don't exist or that transgenders aren't things that we have to talk about. And like all this benefits the default idea of what does it mean to be a man and it's the Christian idea of what it means to be a man and what does it mean to be a woman and it's the Christian preset because they can be so much more open about their religion when they tell everyone else not to express it. I feel like that's the discordance. What do you think, John Richards? What you've just described is peculiarly America because you said there's Christian radio stations, there's Christian TV stations. Well over here, we have Muslim radio stations and Muslim TV stations and I've been on them. Oh really? I can play you some clips of me on Islamic radio and television. Islamic radio. Okay, that's a new one for me. Yeah, that'd be hard to fly in Tennessee and Kentucky. So over there, Christianity is kind of silent but Muslim is loud? It used to be. I mean you could be when I was young. There was only the Anglican church and a few very small denominations that were in peculiarly local areas and Judaism. But of course since then we've had immigrants bring their religion to us and so we've got Muslim communities, Hindu communities and pretty much everything else, even Baha'i in Manchester and around Manchester area. So we're very cosmopolitan and it's better because what was happening was the Anglican church, the established church was moribund. You didn't really have to believe in God to belong to it. It just went along with the tea and cakes and chatted, you know. And it opened itself to invasion by all of these alternatives who are much more evangelizing, much more missionaries. Yeah. Okay, guys, there's a lot more topics in this comment that I'd like to go to but let's do it in the second half of the show. How about that? Sure. Stay tuned for the second half of the Digital Freethought Radio Hour on WOZO Radio 103.9 LP FM here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We'll be right back after this short break. Welcome back to the second half of the Digital Freethought Radio Hour. I'm doubter five and we're on WOZO Radio 103.9 LP FM here in Knoxville, Tennessee. Let's talk about the Atheist Society of Knoxville or ASK for just a moment. We were founded in 2002. It's been 20 years now. We have over a thousand members. And we have weekly in-person meetings every Tuesday evening in Knoxville's Old City at Barley's Taproom in Pizzeria. Look for us inside at the high top tables or if it's pretty weather outside on the deck. We have Tuesday evening Zoom meetings for those who can't get out or don't live in Knoxville. You can join us. We'll send you the link if you email us at AskAnAtheist at KnoxvilleAtheist.org or let's chat Essie at gmail.com. You can also find AskOnFacebook, MeetUp.com or KnoxvilleAtheist.org, which is their website. Or you can just Google KnoxvilleAtheist. You'll find us. It's just simple. By the way, if you don't live in Knoxville, you can still go to a MeetUp and do a search for an Atheist group in your town. Don't find one. Start one! That's right. Well, I'm back. Where do we want to pick up? Hey, we're talking about this comment that we got from Cynical Precious regarding why Christians are so obsessed with sex. Some feedback comments that we got on this inside the YouTube channel is from GeoFagus. It's not just Christians and it's not just sex. Religions tend to go after our most basic urges and needs. Look at religious rules on clothing, food, and other interactions with other people. You name it. Control those things and you control those people. And I think that's probably the meat and potatoes behind it. One last comment that was on there is it's also to control the women. Control women is a huge driving force of this. And if you control women, that's half of your population. I think it's a meted sexual repression because it's the thing that you probably think the most about or at least as a species have the most wiring to go towards because we're all the products of sex. And so it's going to be a part of our lives at some point. And then it's the question of how are we going to interact with it when it does happen. And so if we are designed or trained ourselves to repress these thoughts, it only builds up more pressure when we can't just address it and recognize it for what it is and move on with our lives or take part in it. It becomes like this extra monkey on our shoulder that weighs us down and makes us more reverent or at least acknowledgeable like, oh, if this weight on my shoulder isn't my sexual oppression, but in fact, Satan, then Satan's real because I feel this pressure all the time. And I feel like that's a really bad misconstruing of feelings to hijack, you know, it's an unfortunate thing. And I wish Christianity and other religions wouldn't take part in it and when I heard about Islam it also breaks my heart too, but it's, I guess, it's the same thing happens in. And even sex Buddhism because you don't really see a lot of Buddhist females put on a pedestal really right so like sex is a controversial tactic by a lot of religious groups. Yeah, well, it's, if it wasn't a good thing we wouldn't be here as somebody said earlier, because obviously we are here as a result of reproduction so it's necessary. And if you look at it from an evolutionary point of view, in order to succeed all animals that, you know, have sexes, not those who are asexual but all animals that have sexes have to reproduce so denying it or making it a taboo is just ridiculous. And if you take some of our closest relatives, the Bonobos, for example, you know the smaller chimpanzees, they use sex almost like a handshake, they meet each other and have a quick touch. And that's our closest primate relative. Yeah. I'm going to throw this one out to Eric. You, you are really big into design and engineering. And John riches you're also into biology. I'm a biochemist myself. I want to throw this out like if God wanted us to only have sex in the way that he approved to have we could have just simply looked our fingers and touched them at the tips and like transferred all of our genetic information. That would have been it. But yet he made it where you could have 14 different positions that he doesn't approve of maybe even way more than that. And it's like, I call this missionary style for reasons like yeah but there's way more other funerous ways to do it. And he's like the main taboo that he has is like gay sex where it's like or male male gay sex but it's like, you made a round peg and around hole. And like you couldn't like really fix that. It's like, oh, dang it. I did that thing where I made it. Oh, geez. Okay, we'll still don't do it anyway. It's like you couldn't. You could have fixed that you could have been a giant knot at the end front. Like he was all knowing and didn't know it. Right, right, right, right, right. But he's testing them. He's testing them guys. But he doesn't know the results of the test. Yeah, exactly. You're going to mix blue dye and red dye together again every when you get purple dye like come on dude. What are you doing? Eric, what do you think about the design aspect of that or other. Yeah, well, first of all, as a civil engineer, I wouldn't have put the sanitation system right next to the pleasure system. The playground. I will say that that the other thing that kind of the biology seems to segregate between men and women is men can have multiple orgasms and in, you know, in an easier way than women women can you know the way they've the way the body is designed it's harder for a lot of women to have an orgasm which is which is a poor design it should you know it should be. You would think it would be a one in one. It would just be just as easy for both now of course that's that's not all women but I think you see that and other and other animals to and it's obviously it's just a byproduct evolution but you know, if if if both genders were designed the same way you would think it would be a easier, easier way to have both achieve that. Yeah, it's not as if it's not possible either is it because yeah, if you look at mammals, some mammals use the same passage way to breathe and swallow through. You know we have a nose like this exactly comes together in a cross road and and goes into two pipes and sometimes goes the wrong way and chokes and that can lead to death, but it's not impossible to design it better. Look at the citations. They have their breathing hole on the back of their neck and their mouth only. Yeah, and porpoises and whales that don't think exactly. Yeah, so you could say that putting the the reproductive aperture next to the urinary and defecation apertures is unintelligent design. Right. Basically, there are ways you could have designed bodies, if we were a product of design at all, where all these things that we consider sin or we're told our sins would never have been a possibility or feasible in the first place. Yes, so to make it both feasible, practical and pleasurable and fun, all at the same time for a lot of different people and then say but don't do that is is is the same condition of putting a trap in the Garden of Edel like you put a you put a you put an apple that's delicious that thing that looks like the thing that people need to eat. That's in hand reach of a people who can reach and reach for it but told us not to reach for it and eat it, and we didn't eat it. And you put an animal that can speak our language and told us hey you should eat that thing we did it anyway because you purposely told us not to know what right and wrong is so we listen to this animal. Like, that is by design like the worst trap you could have ever possibly set up and one of the most convoluted steps possible I mean talking animals what's going on just like just put the piece of fruit in our mouse already. It's even worse that he used that excuse to curse the rest of mankind. People who did it. Yeah, it's like he set up a game of mouse trap is just like you're you're literally setting this up for failures like yeah but that's the point by the way. And again, he knew that he knew the outcome, he knew it was going to happen, right. It made it a trap. But it's also frustrating when we see when we talk with these Christians, I don't know if you brought this up with your Christian friend on free thought our john but like, there are people who, despite knowing all these things still ardently believe in the goodness of God and the design of God and the immaculate design of the universe by God. Like, but on the, on the face level you look at all the basic things that are, if you take it, if you take it absolutely 100% true and you just look at what steering just have a small degree of criticism to it. None of this holds together. Yeah. It's like a Nicholas Cage movie. It's like, I know it's bro. I know there are a lot of explosions and it looks cool and Batman did that voice but none of this makes sense if you just look at line for line this makes no sense. Interestingly, the chat free thought out that we had last night. Alan, the pastor said he was brought up by his parents who are very religious and they've did they banned him from watching certain comedy shows on TV because they were a bit disrespectful of religion. And he claims that they brought him up to think critically. So, so what he's done is he's applied his critical thinking to his faith and reasoned his way through the Bible, but it. He didn't apply astutely enough, or rigorously enough for it to, for it to him to realize that the whole thing is BS. You just got two new comments and I and that's a good point, John. That's a really good point because I. It's the hypocrisy of it that also bothers me too. Right. And so it is disgusting. Anyway, grandpan also made a comment on the thread. He says theism is embarrassed by the curse of merely being human. If pooping and if using the bathroom or voluntary acts they'd have been deemed sinful as well. And yeah. And then also another comment from Rush MC one. Honestly, most people are honest or most people are obsessed with sex Christians just come at it from a negative and self hating angle. Yeah. Okay, okay. Thank you for those comments guys. Feel free to leave more as we do the chats. You know, we've got to be obsessed with sex otherwise we wouldn't be here. Well, you know, here's my thought. I appreciate him saying most I there are people who are obsessed with sex and it's not a none. It's not an abnormal thing to not be obsessed with. And I want to make sure that's a point to but yeah. Fair enough. I didn't mean it's compulsory what I meant is as a population. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a successful way and and it's and even if you don't have an obsession with it doesn't mean that you can't do it or that you're or waiting for going through a phase just means like no it's okay to not be obsessed with it. It's okay to look it in a positive light too. And I feel like what Christianity does is give us a starting pack of cards that are so bad that it basically weighs our impression of sex moving forward. What I really also feel bad about too is the idea that sex is something that men are out of it because it's used to control women. Women never really get to see it at the table in terms of actually enjoying it pleasurably and we don't have a obviously there's no woman on the show but I do feel like there's no voice to a woman that enjoy sex. Because a man can talk about it in a way where it's like a pleasurable experience. I had all these organs it was great but if a woman does it the societal context is well this is a person who is morally not astute and not good and there's problems with them and I feel like that lack of gender equality is also really really bad too. I'd be why I'd be I'd be really happy to live in a society where we get rid of this. Look at it. Yeah, it's a really bad double standard new new comment patriarchy on patriarchy that one thing men can't control is giving birth. So they can't be certain they are the father in the absence of paternity tests shaming women into monogamy and abstinence before marriage is clearly the best solution. That's that is that's the point that's another point to it's just like hey it's a good way to control women if we can't have birth control pills, even though we have them now. The other thing we can do is shame them into which we know doesn't work very well either so it's just it's just a really bad setup. What you've just outlined there is really all about property. Men want to know who their offsprings are so that so that they can leave their property to them and there will be no dispute because they can say, you're my son you get this. Okay, okay. Yeah, it's all about it's all about property before property before civilization when we were hunter gatherers. It really didn't matter because there was nothing to inherit. Hmm, very true. But then we had the chastity belt that. Yes, helped. You can you can see some of those in castles and museums around here and they are horrific cars, jobs or wrought iron jobs. Yeah, but you made me this conversation has made me is reminded me of a video that I've seen from an African Christian, because in Africa it's a bit different. It's not sort of every sexual activity is taboo. It's specific ones. So you, you can you're allowed to do the, what's it called the, the, the vicar's position, you know, no, it's not called vicar isn't it what is it it's a priest, the man on shirt missionary. Thank you yeah missionary position. That's okay in Africa, you can do man on top, but all the other positions right now loud and it has to be man on top. Yes. Which which actually goes against the the women has an advantage being on top for her orgasm and. Right, right. Dominance thing, and it's the man that's having sex is the woman that's receiving it that's that's the preset behind it. Let's not get into revealing our favorite positions. Okay, none. Larry, what's your thought on the flock idea. And back when these rules were being made, and maybe even currently the preacher could consider the flock, the predatory preacher if there was one could consider their flock their, their private hunting ground sexual hunting ground, and didn't want to have sex with their possible conquests. So they really tamp down on the no, no sex area so that, you know, STDs and things like that wouldn't get polluted into the pool that they were exploiting. And that makes me think of a news item which I reported this week about a quiver full church in the state of New York, where the leaders the church leaders have abused lots of women. Right. And, and their attitude is they hand over their sexuality to the law. Oh, yeah, I wonder if we were to do a random poll of preachers how many had met their own wife or significant other in a similar church group, right, or, or even in their own congregation. And like, that is a that could be a startling statistic, honestly. I'm going to put my Christian hat on guys. And I'm going to say you guys have been ragging on Christianity and religion for a while but you guys haven't offered any solutions so that's that isn't that typical of atheists. What would you do to make it any better and how can you even demonstrate that that would be the case I'll throw it out to Larry Rhodes, Larry, you've been ragging on Christianity. So what was atheism have how can you make this better how can you make appreciation of sex in any way better at least we have a system. What do you think. Well, I mean, with today's birth control pills and readily available abortion if you need it. And most countries around the world. Let me put that addition to it. And modern medicine. There's really no reason why we shouldn't have sex as often wherever we want to. Now, there are precautions. You have to be adult about it you have to take the precautions. Unwelcome pregnancies spread of STD is that type of thing, but the act itself. There's no reason to to forbid it. It's very pleasurable. I may have this attitude because when I grew up. I was born in the 50s when after penicillin was made. And before AIDS hit free sex was, you know, 67 type of thing 60s and 70s type of thing. And that may be the attitude that I have, but I still think there's really no reason to pant down on it, especially for supernatural reasons. It gives pleasure. It brings people closer. It feels good. Whatever. My thoughts. Okay, Eric. Christiana has a lot of society, multiple presidents, multiple world leaders. We're not on fire right now. We got a planet that's good. We got a lot of resources. That's Christianity's benefit was atheism brought to the table. And if you guys take away all these rules, the whole society falls apart. So why are you ragging on Christianity this whole time? And what do you have as an atheist for improving sexuality? Like, like we've said, a lot of the reasons to make sex taboo has been taken care of, you know, we have birth control, better understanding of how diseases and spread and all of that. So we don't really need the taboo and we don't really need the old, the big guys watching you don't put your hand in your pants. So we say this, sex education, you know, in schools, kids are going to figure it. The internet is there. Kids are going to figure it out. They know how to use the computer better than you do. They're going to find out everything they need to know. So, so give them good education in schools. Don't make it icky. Make it just very, very open. Be like Netherlands. And then, yeah, mandatory vasectomies for every boy. There you go. There you go. Because it's reversible. It's reversible. John Richards, how are you going to control the women? See, you see what Christianity says, we've had this. Come on, come on. Control on women. You're just going to give that up. Who can control women? Give me a break. Christians are doing a pretty effective job on it. I wouldn't even say it's a good job, but I'd say it's a pretty effective. Go ahead, Larry. What are you doing? I go to Richard Dawkins reply when a Muslim asked him, how do you control your women? He said, they're not my women. They can, they, they're autonomous. I like what, I like what Eric said about the internet is there. Right. Because Paul surveys have been done about the usage of the internet and guess which countries visit the most porn sites. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to assume it's flipped. I'm going to say the more conservative of the country, the better, but North Korea doesn't have a internet really, I think. But man, this is going to be rough. I'm going to do auto America just because it seems like we have the most people. It's not America. Who is it? Who is it? Tell us Middle East Middle East. It's particularly the Islamic countries. Wow. Because they don't get to see it in the walking around the streets. Well, they could be potentially the most repressed. Larry, what do you think? I just wanted to respond to your, what does atheism bring? Yeah, what does it offer? While it brings an existence without it, I have a meme here that I created and sent out an existence without a celestial dictator, reading your mind 24 seven looking for sin for no more preachers running your life. No worries about an eternity in hell. You get to sleep in on Sundays. And you get a 10% pay raise too. Nice. I can tell you for me. So I grew up with the just the general impression of like there's only gay people and straight people and there's nothing really else in between. You know, before puberty, I was like, I was waiting for sexual awakening to kick on on me. And when it didn't, like when I was 14, I was like, maybe I'm just a late bloomer. It's not a problem. And like by the time I was 20, it was still like, I'm not feeling any like very strong, like sexual emotions either way. All my stuff works. Pleasuring feels good. But like there's no other person attraction. I'm wondering like, what's going on? Do I just hate women? Like, is this a thing that I got to think about? Because I know I'm not gay either. Like what's what are the opportunities here? And so I've got myself in this weird internet tunnel where it's like, are there any other people that are like me and I found some people who are like pickup artists who are like, yeah, I don't like women either. I'm just like dating them. And I'm like, oh, I guess that's I guess closer to what I'm at then because like I can I can definitely date women. And so I started on almost like this weird track where I was like dating almost all the people in our science building ones like I could look at almost every girl and be like I've been on a date with her here here here. Nothing yet. Let me try another person. Let me try another person. And I was just like, what in the world is going on? And so finally, like, after a long search I found out, like, is it okay to just not feel any sexual attraction? And it's like, yeah, of course, that's a whole thing. I'm like, why didn't I find that in my 30s? Like, why didn't I find that when I was in my teens? Why didn't someone educate me or let me know that? Because at that point I can't talk about that. Exactly. I only knew straight, gay or bi. And I thought, well, if you're like men, you like women or you like both men and women. But I'm like, what if you don't like any of those? Is that an option? Is there a fourth box? None of the above. It's like, yeah, you can be done. I was like, that's the group. And not only is that a group, but like it's a full thing. It's like a full, it's not just a community, but it's just like its own standardized thing. No one explained it to me. And I felt like, as Eric was saying, if we just had this taught in schools, where it's just like kids, you can be any of these things. And it's a whole spectrum. And it's okay. And you don't have to worry about the repression or anything. It would have saved me a lot of headache, would have saved me a lot of guilt, a lot of repression, and just give me a better understanding or at least a good starter pack to figure out what my identity is just moving forward. I'm glad you found out. Thanks. And I just appreciate having that without the religion. And I feel like if the religion got out of the way would help a lot of other kids too. We have a world where there's gay kids who commit suicide, transgenders who do the same thing as to that factor, most at risk. I feel like if religion were to or this dogma or the, the, the pressure we put on sexual identification or, or, or freedom is just taken away. We could really reduce, you know, unwanted teen pregnancy, because we can find safe ways to do it. We can improve birth control access for both men and women other than mandatory bisectomy sorry. There's, there might be a pillow out there that for men that can just stop sperm flying around we could have that research like 20 years ago. And just like the idea of like here's what your identities are a tolerance for it, acceptance of it, kids coming out to their parents and out being a big deal. All this stuff could have been so much better. But we have to be in this reality. And so, yeah, we're left here to clean up the mess that religion had brought. And yeah, we need to start. One of the things that religion likes to do is keep people as ignorant as possible so that they can control their thoughts even. And I remember the bubble. Yeah, that's right. I remember I bumped into a woman I think it was on Twitter, who said that one of her male workmates had actually asked her how she urinates when she's got a tampon in. I mean, that's just an indictment of the fear of the education education of how reproduction systems work. Right. I never thought I'd ever tell this story out loud but there was once a girl in my high school who was so angry at another guy that she drew him naked and like in this terrible tortured position but she everyone made fun of it because she was on the top. We're just like, oh my gosh, that's so sweet. It's so fun. All right, it's sad too. It's sad teaches. Right, right, right. We need to blame it. The edict against talking about sex. I mean, if it weren't for that edict, we'd have sex education. It'd be normal. Yeah, exactly. I was a teacher so I can blame teachers that I'm allowed to. So we'll do we'll do we'll do round table shout out Spudger thanks so much for joining the show always a pleasure John Richards always good to have you Larry can't do the show with that my friend. The first thing I want to shout out for the show is a movie called ready player one. It is a terrible movie. It is also a terrible book, but, but the first couple of chapters just straight up are very straight up like listen. I'm aware that I have been lying to my entire life. This is actually how the universe was created. It was an evolutionary process, and then millions of years later, like it's just a very flat. It's the beginning of how the world came to be up to the point where the VR happens literally from like the big bang all the way to VR. And I'm like, every kid who watches this movie might pick up the book, or, and if they pick up the book, they're at least going to be injected with that telling, and then read the afterwards. And I found that to be a really good way to, while it shouldn't be the responsibility of public culture to do that, but it's a good way to introduce kids in that mindset before religion has all the chains on them and pulls them into a completely different direction is good just to have a very dry is the door and the information flow. Exactly like here's another idea. It's a it's a pebble in your shoe, and people are going to like you and tell you otherwise. But this is the most scientific way of it and then it led to VR and now we have these Easter egg hunts that were fine. It's like, okay, good, good, good. John Richards, what do you think or what would you like to plug? I'd like to plug free thought channel easily found on YouTube. And recently I've taken great delight in debunking Frank Turek. So you can see some of my attempts at that. They're very short on free thought channel. And of course later today, we will have a global Atheist news review, including tie. And I've just had a message that she can make it today too. It's great. Yeah. See you later. Boudre, you also might like that show too. If you see the link you're more than welcome to ever come back in but it's it's not bad. It's not a bad group of guys. I think I joined you one time, John. Yeah, you maybe did. It's all a blur to me now. What degree of orange should we check out next week? Yeah, get you some do do a workout at orange theory and then get you some orange leaf ice cream while listening to some orange whip, orange whip. Nice. Nice. Nice. I'll do all three tandems at once. There you go. I did get a message from one of our former members. I won't say who, but it was interesting. Someone who used to be an atheist is now seeing the light of God, I guess, and was good for them. Yeah, I mean, and I had a nice exchange with them and, you know, they gave me a question to ponder and I shot back with another question and we kept it civil. Nice. Nice. Nice. Larry Rhodes, anything that you'd recommend we check out because I'm going to check out books about atheism and what they're all about. Anyway, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I happen to do have a book. You don't have to go into that. Sound like you're going to talk about something else. What's it all about? Anyway, my content can be found at digital free thought.com. Be sure to click on the blog button for a radio show archives, atheist songs and articles on the subject. You can find me on YouTube by searching for a doubter five. If you have questions for the show, you can send them to ask an atheist at Knoxville atheists.org, or let's chat. If you're having trouble leaving religious beliefs behind, you can get help and in recovering from your religious experience at recovering from religion.org, excuse me. You can find this show and podcasts everywhere just search for digital free thought radio hour. Remember, everybody is going to somebody else's hell. The time to worry about it is when they prove that heavens and hells and souls are real. Until then, don't sweat it. Enjoy your life. And we'll see you next week. Say bye everybody. Bye everybody.