 Welcome to this episode of the structural engineering channel podcast a podcast focused on helping structural engineering professionals stay up to date on technical trends in the field and to help them succeed in their careers and lives. I'm your co-host Alexis Clark. I work in Hilties North American headquarters as the product manager of our chemical anchoring portfolio in the US and Canada. I'm a licensed professional engineer in Texas. I received my bachelor's in civil engineering from UT Austin, and I'm currently an MBA candidate at Auburn. And now I'd like to introduce our guest for this episode. Jennifer Trout-Tadaro, S.E. Lead AP is a senior engineer for the American Institute of Steel Construction and is a licensed structural engineer in the state of Illinois. She earned her Bachelor of Science in architectural studies and Master of Architecture degree with a structural focus both from the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. After graduation, Jenny started her structural engineering career as a consulting design engineer gathering experience for 11 years on small to mid-rise projects around the US. Before joining AISC in 2014, she was a structural associate at the AE firm Harley Ellis Devereaux. She is serving her last term on the structural engineers association of the Illinois Board of Directors and is involved with several committees. Her passions are elegant building design solutions, structural and architectural, and equity in the AEC industry. Now let's jump into our conversation with Jenny. Jenny, welcome to the structural engineering podcast. Thank you for having me. We are really glad to have you on today and we're excited to have you give our listeners a little bit of a scoop on the AEC industry. Before we dive into that, I'm curious, will you please share with our audience a little bit about your career journey and what it is you do now on a day to day basis at AISC? Sure. I have a little bit of a non-traditional route to structural engineering. I have a Bachelor's in Masters in architecture. I always thought I wanted to be an architect. I do get to still work with buildings, but I ended up switching directions when I went to my master's program. I was actually approached right before graduation by the department head in the structures option at University of Illinois. And he offered me $5 if I joined his department. And for some reason I took him up on it and now I'm a structural engineer. I actually see him on a regular basis through our committee work with AISC, so I remind him that he's the reason that I'm an engineer. And following university, I worked for several engineering firms and then some architectural engineering firms and now work for AISC in their Steel Solutions Center. The Steel Solutions Center focuses on technical and project assistance for the AEC industry. And I am one of the few people that get to actually design still at AISC. So I take projects and their infancy that are brought into us and take a look and see what that would look like in Steel. And provide information back to architects, general contractors, fabricators, engineers, anybody who's interested in seeing what their project looks like at a conceptual level in Steel. And actually even bring in some of our member fabricators to help them start budgeting what that might be. So that's what I do for AISC now. That's awesome. And I just want to say that $5 is a pretty small bribe. So it sounds like the majority of the reason you came is because you had a true passion for structural engineering, right? There's a good chance. I think that he probably recognized that I was interested. I'm going to take much. No, no, it was a little push in the right direction. That's good. We talked a lot about mentorship on this podcast. So that's a great reminder that if you're young and someone who said, do you think this is a good fit for you? That's probably a mentor trying to push you, nudge you in the right direction. That's great. Definitely. So, yeah, so it looks like at AISC, you kind of get to be in the schematic design phase where you get the overall big picture instead of instead of taking design through, but you do get to come up with ideas to basically make the building or structure work, right? Correct. We use RAM structural systems and we'll take, typically we'll have maybe some architectural drawings, some sketches, and we'll design the building in the three-dimensional space that RAM provides and give them sizing and elevations and that sort of thing, just to get them off the ground and, again, push them in the right direction, first deal, see if it's a viable option. Gotcha. I think that's, for me, that's always one of the funner parts, kind of that schematic design phase where you get to kind of play around with the concept. So that's really cool to hear. Jenny, you're also a private tutor in topics such as, you know, general structures, lateral forces and statics and dynamics. And, you know, a lot more topics. How has this experience teaching or tutoring helped advance your engineering career? Well, I sort of started teaching when I was in grad school. Part of that $5 was also the ability to be a teaching assistant. And I don't think I actually really understood concepts like moment inertia and that sort of thing until I had to teach it to somebody else. And so I've always found the teaching part to be incredibly valuable when it comes to technical, but also the people that you get to meet. The tutoring I was doing, and I don't do as much of it now, I've kind of changed the direction of how I teach and where I teach as I've grown in my career. But the tutoring was for architects to take their structures exams and coming from an architecture background, it seemed to be helpful for them to look at structures from an architect's perspective as opposed to the way I think a lot of engineering programs look at it, which is a beam in a building. And the way that they approach that exam is more from the architect's perspective, but sometimes it's challenging for them to wrap their head around the number part of it. And there's a lot of success that I got to see with people having trouble passing it and then working with me and then passing, which was, you know, kind of exciting for somebody who felt like they couldn't. This was the one exam that was holding them back to then get licensed because of it. Really exciting. And like I said, the people part, I got to work with people throughout the Chicago architecture community, which really kind of unintentionally set up a network of architects that I am able to kind of reach out to for one reason or another. And I find that really rewarding. I love that I really I appreciate that you bring both the human and the technical aspect of that. It's, it's so critical to have connections and have a community and not only for your own advancement within the, the, the industry but also just to have a sense of belongingness and and feel like you're a part of something bigger than just you and your technical skills. I think that's really important so I appreciate that you brought that to us. I was like, I just thought it was cool how it's, you know, you're making yourself better but you're also building a network in the professional industry too so that's, I never thought of it that way so that's really great. Yeah. Yeah, I ended up being asked to do a little session for the AIA Young Architects Group. I was involved with them early on in my career not realizing that there was a structural engineering version. So I was still stuck in that architect mindset even though I'd gone through an engineering program and working as an engineer and somebody at one of those events turned to me and was like, wait a minute. You, you could, you could teach us for free if we, what do you, what do you think about that? And I was like, um, I, well, we could try it. I mean, I've been at TA so I have some teaching experience and I ended up doing a session for them and then somebody came up to me at the end and said, I'd really like to work with you one on one and then that's how that whole tutoring thing started. It wasn't, it was, it was very organic. It was, and then if I wanted to get some more students, I would actually just do another session. So it was like an hour and a half of my time and I get to meet more people and it was a lot of fun. And now more recently I actually taught at Northwestern, which was really fun too. It was a different, definitely a different environment. It was more like that TA environment but without a lead professor. So, again, I, I love teaching. It's just a lot of fun. That is awesome. And I had to, so I'm curious, you have been in this like organic informal tutoring situation where it's maybe one on one or it's, you know, more personal, and you've also been in this TA and, and I would say probably an associate or affiliate professor? Um, I think they call him adjunct. Adjunct, perfect. Thank you. I knew sort of, I couldn't think of what it was. I think, and I don't think I'm a professor. I think I'm a lecturer. I think I was like, you know, We still, we still think it's incredible. It's more than we've, I never been a professor or a lecturer. Yeah, I don't want to claim anything because those titles mean something. My mom's actually a professor and so I think that she'd be happy if I were very clear in my title. Fair enough. Fair enough. We appreciate the precision. So my question is, you've been in these two different sides and you have this passion for teaching. Do you, do you find one feels more comfortable? Do you find one stretches you more? Do you get more out of one versus the other? Are there pros or cons? I'm really curious to know how you feel about that because I also enjoyed teaching, but mine's always been very informal. And so I'm just curious, you know, what your thoughts are. Yeah, I definitely, my comfort zone is smaller groups. So the one on one is really fun for me. It's not, it's hard in the sense that sometimes you have to explain something in like four different ways for someone else to understand it. But that's fun for me. Larger groups, I'm, I'm not a fan. I'm not a fan of large public speaking and it does stretch me in that way that I have to kind of think about how I can try to accommodate everybody's understanding and answer questions. Answering questions is almost like one on one, even if I'm in front of a group. So because then I can kind of direct, directly solve someone's concern. But I definitely enjoyed the tutoring more. But the large group was presented and I was at the time actually looking to kind of bolster my public speaking ability. So it really, it's that that part helped. Very cool. Very cool. So I'll make a pivot really quick and insert to learn a little bit about some of the, the work that you do currently so I understand that you work in, in a large team, and that this can often lead to many different challenges right. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the challenges you get to face in the office environment that you work in and what it is that you do to overcome those challenges. I definitely think that large groups, like I said, my comfort zone is smaller. So I do what I can to break it down. Because I work in a, even though my company is close to 100, and we have this network of members that we reach out to on a regular basis. But breaking it down into the smaller work groups really seems to help me. I work in a team of three in the solution center, but we're inside of the engineering department, which has been, you know, wrapped in AISC. And then we work a lot with our committees, which is all volunteer. And I think for me, breaking the problems down into smaller problems and breaking the groups down into smaller work groups, we all get to know each other better. And I think we work together better. But the fact that we're working with that many people, there's always more opinions, more stakeholders, more personal agendas. And so I was lucky enough to do a leadership training a couple of years ago that really helped me kind of reframe how to work with others. I'm still definitely working on how to actually implement that because it's a mindset and you're constantly working on that mindset. But understanding that where people are coming from and meet them where they're at, as opposed to assuming that people are just going to meet you where you're at, is a lot more effective in moving something forward. So I think that's one of the challenges, many of the several challenges working large groups. I think another one that we that we're even more challenged with now that we're not physically in an office together is the is communication, and, and making sure that we're keeping people updated specifically and then how we communicate and making sure that that is coming across in a way that is respectful and but still getting the job done. I have a tendency to be direct, and I don't mean to be impolite, but I'm an engineer so I have a tendency to just say like this is what I need. And then like send. And that's not the way that most people respond, especially I feel like ASD when I started working there I couldn't believe how is a different work environment been consulting. Because consulting is, I feel like I was, you know, always another beginning a phone call from a contractor. I have the concrete truck here right now I am pouring right now, you need to solve this problem that has just arisen we didn't notice until we had the truck and I'm like, Okay, of course, like, you know how much of that is true but it's always this go go go. I need the answer right now. And you're always kind of on a fire drill backpedaling sort of feeling, but with ASD, because we're creating, you know, the manual and the specification and practice and a lot of these documents that lead, you know, our, our industry. It's a lot that has to be a lot more thoughtful. We want to get it right. And so people are a little bit less stressed, because it's not we we are able to plan there's not as much. This sort of thing just happens we got to figure it out like that happens that happens in every job but it's there's more planning allowed for in this kind of work so people are less stressed and I would venture to say like appear happier. So then because they're already in a good mood like I have to think about like okay they're they're not in the go go go. I have to like I'm always I'm still kind of in that even though six years later that was definitely a transition when I first started. I was like, there's no time sheet. What do I do with time sheet. And we used to even just, we just like checked a box at the door saying like we've arrived. So they make sure that we, you know, checked in that day. But now we don't have an even we don't have that even before coven we didn't we stopped kind of reporting our attendance essentially. So that's definitely a different mindset and and realizing that we have a little bit of time to put in that extra, you know, smiley face and that sort of thing. So, I can definitely relate to that as a, you know, consulting so I definitely see. Yeah, I get it. I think all consultants do, you know, it's a high pace one, especially when construction is going. And I'm curious to. So you, who are the types of people that you work with you mentioned owners engineers obviously but do you also work with the contractors trades trades people, etc. Like, what's the range of people that you work with. Yeah, so I didn't really understand who AISC was, honestly, before I started interviewing with them to me AISC was the manual, and that's what they produce like they probably also did a bunch of other stuff. But to me as an engineer, they were the producer of like the standards that I used for steel. Well it turns out not just the standards. They don't. They also work with certification which I also kind of peripherally understood which is the an increase in increased quality control system for the fabrication of steel so you have the, you know, all the steel manufacturers in the United States are held to a certain by our documentation at AISC, but if they choose to they can also become certified which there's a lot of other benefits that come along with that for the certified person certified company but also the people who hire them so you might be able to avoid certain because they've already promised a certain level of quality in the shop and on site. So there's the whole group that administrates our certification audits and that we also have a group I originally within actually market development and I've moved more into engineering now but we have a market development group that is out there to be the face of steel for anybody who needs that one on one so we they very much emphasize that that face to face you have a face to talk to you if you have a question you know who you can call you can call your local specialist, or you can call the solution center. And then we have people who work on our conference. So there are none of those people are technical, they're all super patient with us engineers, because we have a certain personality type and they're all about making the best experience for everybody, which is great because we had engineers doing that I don't think we have good of the time at our conference. And so we have, we probably have, and then this is just a guess it's not for sure not the actual numbers but I feel like we're half administrative and half engineers. So we have engineers in every department. We'll have engineers in the marketing department. We have engineers obviously in engineering. We have engineers in our certification department we have engineers in our education group who provides education education for practicing engineers but we also have a group that reaches out to university level students and professors and supports them so that's a very long answer to your question about who I work with, but it's a different balance than a consulting firm because we have a lot of administrative staff that support the work that we do. It's also a very, it's a varied group I mean you've got so many different backgrounds. I, you were mentioning all these roles and I was like clicking check, check, check as far as all the different people that I get to work with at Hilti. I've been on the engineering in continue education standpoint that was the last role that I did was delivering, you know, education for structural engineers so I, I understand what that group goes through I'm currently an engineer in marketing and it is. I work with engineers who are in your position where they're an engineer in marketing but they're doing engineering work you're actually designing things you're actually, you know, helping helping individual project work so it's. I actually am a little bit surprised how similar Hilti and AISC are but I, I, it is a huge machine and when you're, I know that I speak to people all the time and I say oh I work at Hilti or you know if you say I work at AISC they say okay great you produce and they're used to that book that technical manual oh yeah you're the one who creates the product tech guides that I use it on my desk or I yeah you create the steel Bible. It's so it's so funny to to kind of open people's eyes to all the different aspects that make these large groups that are providing more than just technical data available to you and it's it's funny because I think. And Matt actually I will appreciate your insight here you know if if you share all these different aspects of what your company does as a larger. Industry multidisciplinary manufacturer or or industry organization to the consulting engineer if I mentioned all those things you probably go oh yeah I've heard of that but it's hard to get out of the idea of well I rely on you for technical information. Yeah, exactly it's kind of what Jenny was saying to is, you know, I've pretty much been working in the consulting industry and. Yeah, I see I think of the steel Bible so it's it's it's for me it's really interesting to see because I know it's a big organization is like what else do they do. And there's so many resources out there so it's really cool to see that. You know firms such as as a SC. They're really like multifaceted in terms of what they provide and it's not just for the engineers but they do so much in terms of, you know, you do need to talk to different types of people. So yeah, for me that's that's why I that's why I'm always curious about that's like, I know you guys do this but what else do you do and then when the doors open like oh that's a lot of stuff. Absolutely has tracks for erectors and contractors and fabricators and installers they have a pretty wide range of people that you guys interact with. Yeah, I am going to realize at the end of what I was saying that I had not really addressed the outside people. Yeah, so we have our little our little you know, a ISP planet and then, but we're really there to serve the industry and the industry is. We serve it from the mill, you know, out to the end user so our members, we have different kinds of memberships which is one of the things that did not understand before but a ISP is highly funded by the people who make steel. So you get a manual, because the fabricators and mills want you to be able to design with their product, if that makes sense. AISC is one of our functions is to help facilitate that so when we, I thought that AISC wrote the manual, for instance, well we don't. We have actually we just kind of guide it and make sure it happens, but we have large huge groups of volunteers from the industry that are again are from that mill fabricator erectors. Design engineers, educators, researchers, all these people all come together on a depending on which committee it is mostly at least twice a year, usually more often than that. To look at our documents and make sure that they're current with new research or just make sure that they are saying what they need to say and in some cases actually we have people. Even this week I got an email that said, I think there's a conflict between what's being said in the specification and what's being said in your commentary. Like is that am I reading that right, and they were right. So we're giving that to the committee that kind of shepherds that part of our of the documents and they're going to review it and figure out how to change the language to make it more more legible more understandable for the end users so In the role that I do with the design work, I do get to work with the owners, the architects, the engineers, the fabricators sometimes will come in and say, I've been asked to take a look at this project it's actually drawn in concrete, and I been asked to give a budget on a concrete project that they wanted to go steal. What does that look like and so that's one of the things where I take that and I design it and feel so they have a more educated budget number, so that they might actually be able to flip it to the right material and that you know in that case so the way we work with each of those different groups is is interesting to because you know, some of those fabricators don't even realize we offer this kind of service where we can do a complimentary conceptual solution for them, and I'll meet them in the committee environment, and they'll ask what I do, and I tell them and wait you guys do that. It's like the best kept secret, because you know I've been doing it for six years, but it's been going on for significantly longer. And we just we want to get that the steel ID on the market so we're we're interested in talking to anybody and everybody about about, you know, seeing what still looks like in their projects and how it can function better for them. I love that. I want to give a quick plug to our audience really quick so I know in some of our more recent episodes if you've listened to those. We've talked a lot about you know how do you utilize a little bit of business knowledge to make yourself better in your career how do you how you know what is an opportunity mixing structural engineering with with computer programming work like if you're an if you're an engineer young or tenured, who is very interested in always being technical you don't necessarily want to go into business. As we mentioned there are some things you can take from other aspects of work to make yourself better but being involved in these committees that Jenny just mentioned is such an amazing opportunity you really get to see how the entire machine works, and how these codes and you know this these provisions are developed. This I'm not trying to disparage ASC but if you are designing in concrete audience members ASC ACI the American Concrete Institute has a very similar setup where there are committees that develop these provisions and they continuously need to make sure that they are in tune with the market and with the industry and with the available technology that we have so if you are passionate about a specific part of the code which sounds super nerdy but we all know that we have a section that we really like our chapter it's cool. So we're all friends here. If there's something you're really passionate about from a technical aspect, even if you are very young and even if you don't have your PE license. Those committees will eventually need new members and they would love to have you listen in and shadow and see how the process works so that by the time you do have your PE by the time you do have some some 10 year under your belt, you can contribute to those committees. So if you have any interest in going in that direction, you should absolutely be reaching out to ACI or AISC, and they can, they can get you into the right or committee to where you can start learning and then eventually be able to contribute to that committee as a committee member or even leave the committee later in your career. So if technical is the way you know you want to go great way to develop your technical network and contribute back to the industry. Yeah, thank you for saying that because that's actually one of the pushes that we recently been addressing because as I've worked as a secretary on those committees which that's who the AISC staff person is when we're we're interfacing with that group we're the secretary so we're making sure that all the notes are being taken and bring brought back to AISC to integrate into any new documentation, but as that staff person seeing our committee group. We often and this happens in every committee it's not AISC it's any in business we ask people to join who look like us. So when we're thinking of who we if we even think of it, which is also the thing we'd like to push, you know, people who are already involved, where's that junior person that you could bring with you, because we have room for guests, we have a, we have a set up to allow for that. So you're not going to be able to vote, but you probably don't want to vote yet anyway. I mean, when I sit when you sit in there you're like, Oh my gosh, you people know so much more than me. Like I mean as a secretary I was like I don't think I should be doing this. This is there they've been working on this these these items forever like they they know they know the material of steel back and forth and I'll never understand how much they understand. They have PhDs in it so but being there and and just kind of breathing it in and understanding how that all works and then they all get together at lunch and they're all buddy buddy and then they'll go back to these super technical discussions and if you I didn't know that even existed before working at AISC. I, like I said before I've been very involved with other professional organizations but they're not necessarily technical based they're almost more networking. Let's have a good time and also learn something. But that's that idea of, of asking questions and hopefully there's somebody at your company that's involved already because it's good to have that that mentor to bring you in, because then they can kind of sit there and say, This is what we're talking about right now. This has been in discussions since whenever, you know, and a very big one is the ASD versus LRFD and whether that belongs where those belong right so that came up in the last one of the last committee meetings I was at which was a couple committee meetings back, but like this was a big deal and I was my first deal manual was LRFD strictly only LRFD and so I didn't realize this huge like schism essentially until I started working and then they said, Well, we're not going to look at your work unless it's ASD and so then I had to go do ASD anyways, but, but I, I encourage anybody and everybody who is interested in, like you said, doesn't have to be steel, it could be concrete, it could be just code work so ASDE, any of these groups, they're going to need a younger set of people to join. And, I mean, not going to we need it now. But because that diverse perspective and the question asking really gets us to a better spot so I'm glad you mentioned it because that's actually something that me and a few other people at ASD kind of brought up is like we really need to make this happen. We need to make space on our committees to bring in those younger people and so this last round actually was a big we've made a lot of people emeritus which keeps all of that knowledge but create space for those new people and on the committee that I was on specifically I was super excited. If there were competition for gender diversity, mine got mine one because we brought three women, three women onto ours that I was like and I didn't have a whole lot to do with it but I was like if it was a competition, I won. Fantastic. I just wanted to chime in there too because it was a, I think you made some great points about, you know, you were saying they have PhDs and people that know a lot which is great. But then you have engineers complaining about hey I can't read the code or why is this thing so confusing. Well, you weren't there to help it, you know, to get that other perspective because yeah these PhDs knows, they obviously know a lot. And, you know, to them it's kind of just like they're fluent in another language almost, a technical language. 100%. But from a designer perspective or from any other perspective it's kind of like, it's good that you don't know it because now you can kind of get that perspective of, hey, why is this so confusing is this what you guys mean, then you can have your two cents, especially if you're, you know, like a consultant or or in another position it can, they can use that perspective too. And Jenny, I just wanted to backtrack because I wanted to get this question out there. Could you talk about some of the challenges in the in the trades. So, something that also kind of come up because I've worked for ASD something that I probably wouldn't have had access to before was to actually hear from the fabricators and and then beyond that is women in the trades minorities in the trades which is it's all very interesting to like really get hammered home because for me anyways, the, and you've probably seen articles here and there about the trades the skilled trade shortage that we're in, and what they're forecasting is like is crazy that we'll be needing so many people the average age of our current skilled trades people are in their fifties. That's the number is like 55 or something. And, like, what, how is that sustainable. You know, and like I said before, even with the committee work I said, you know, we hire people who look like us. Well, the trades have been trying to hire people who look like them, and they're not interested anymore. But they're really well paid jobs, they're secure. And they're skilled, so they're really they're well paid. And so there's been a huge push from a lot of different groups, trying to increase the diversity of the people in the trades and make those opportunities available to everybody. I don't know how you guys at your high schools, but my high school shop was turned into an area for our janitorial staff. It was not someplace where you got to work on cars, or build anything. It was actually prohibited for students to get over there right so our high schools have made it impossible to get that kind of training in a regular high school environment, like it used to. And, and we're seeing the results, as it stands now we have people that are going to college, and then they're not getting the job they think they should be getting they're having huge debt. And they're not able to pay them off because they don't get the job that pays that off. And there's so many different avenues for successful careers and the trade is one of those ways that you actually a lot of the trades, they pay you. They're paid internship that you, you're getting paid through the process of learning. And then you come out without debt. So, I mean it's, it's, you know, there's a lot of really big conversations going on about this. AWS has been doing some really great work American welding society, and they, they're really interested in increasing that diversity and they came to speak. Two years ago at any sec with with me I had a held a panel with a woman who teaches under employed or unemployed women to weld and then help them get jobs. So she came and spoke there was another woman from the West Coast that that runs a welding school on the West Coast. And she's a huge proponent of getting women into the workforce and increasing diversity that they have so interesting to see all these different people and how they're, they're really engaging that that need, because there's a lot of people that really need better jobs. They feel like they're stuck, and they feel like they're they can't they don't have something to move forward with that can really be sustainable. And it's really interesting this kind of world I've opened up there's a woman named Vicki O'Leary, who is working with iron workers and a national she's an iron worker herself. She. She's an amazing story. She became an iron worker because her brother was going to go test to become an iron worker, and he told her she couldn't do it. And she said I bet I could. And she did. And so, yeah, exactly. She's amazing and she actually received the in our top newsmaker award. And I think she's going to go now I think, for her work, getting she got women, iron workers in the Union maternity leave recently, which, you know, when she's I called her. This is that networking thing that I, I just can't believe the kind of network that I've been able to reach out to someone that you know you should talk to this woman and she picked up the phone, and she talked to me for over an hour about all the things that she's doing with iron workers international. And so she got maternity leave for women which is huge because actually that's one thing that we need to do better is support women in the trades because it's you're making decision between working and having a family that like what year is this that you know what where it's going to be if we have to make those decisions. And, and so it's really cool that iron workers has kind of come through with that and then she's also started a new initiative called be that one guy. And essentially, there's an issue with harassment on the job site and it's not just against women and it's not just about minorities. You know, there's she the way she describes it it's a safety issue and it happens. There's always that one guy on the site, who just is making things a little bit more difficult than they need to be we don't need to be rude we don't need to do those sort of things but that's how that's the environment he grew up in the industry and he's just continuing it right. And this initiative that she created is a training to help people feel empowered to just say knock it off. You know, just, that's not maybe we don't want that here. It's not something we want to, we want to have on our site where all in this together we're working on a team, and that attitude isn't appropriate. They can say it at the time, just knock it off and all of a sudden, this person, these, she calls them like the one bad apple she's like we are a family here at iron workers and that's it's really interesting if you look her up and see her talks. She talks about how everyone is incredibly supportive. And there's just sometimes that one person on site, who's making it difficult for others and that's been that can be the person that that makes somebody quit because they just don't want to deal with it anymore. And so that's, this is this kind of world that I wasn't really privy to as a consulting engineer because I, I was so far removed from the people actually building. You know, I work with GCs all the time I go on site but how often would I sit there and talk to the person that's actually welding. Never. So, that's something that's been really of interest to me and I've been trying to keep it in our in our conference, something we're always talking about, because the skill trade shortage and this need for for new blood, like, this huge group of people out in the US that are ready to take those types of positions. If we were to remember that they're there. And so there's, there's a lot of work going on around that but I, there's always be more and more exposure is is I just talk about it more keep talking about it and talk about it and I like to bring it back. And I agree with your, your root cause analysis that says that this of a lot of the stems from our high school systems and the fact that the US for so long has said we are a services industry we are services and nation of services so we go into college formats and whether we're ready for that whether or not they have the desire to or even the the learning style that really matches our university system, we do a crate to service to our students and one of the biggest to services like you mentioned is, we don't do a good job of explaining what the full breath of options and then the financial gain and cost of doing those a university degree versus getting paid internship from being an up a plumber or mechanic or you know in any kind of position where you're in a trade that are incredibly lucrative and get you started in building your own personal wealth at 18 years old. My, my brother in law is actually considering that right now and he's not he's you know 21 and I'm like yes please go do that that's such a great opportunity. But I actually got chills when you mentioned Vicki's name Vicki was one of the starters of hard-hatted woman have you heard. Yes. I was talking about the trades and welding and all of the different, all the different issues that women face in the trades on the job site and you mentioned a couple. I mean maternity leave is leaps and bounds from where we were but even today there are job sites where there aren't restroom facilities that are closed or enclosed or covered and you know women will not use that on a job site full of guys and there's it's fascinating I could also dive into this conversation because I'm, I'm re I'm invigorated by the Renaissance that the trades are having, but it is not an inclusive or safe place for everyone. And when we make things better to incorporate the entire workforce that we could be bringing into the trades and having skills labor, we really do raise the standard and the level of safety for everybody on the job site so I am super passionate about this. I believe that hard-headed woman comes out in 2021 it's supposed to prepare at Sundance then so listeners keep tabs on that it is a fantastically interesting documentary on women in the trades and iron workers are a large portion of who they spend focus on so if you're a steel engineer. This, this could be a very interesting topic for you. I'm like, I could dive into that for hours. I just think it's fascinating. Yeah, yeah. So I think you may have it have answered my my next question which would have been, what are some emerging initiatives that you're seeing in a AC industry that have caught your attention, obviously this is an attention grabber. Anything else that you want to share with us there. Well, I just recently again this is like through a coworker of mine. They had gotten an email that was local to them so they were there in North Carolina and there was a group called she built the city, and he's, you know, people think like at ASC if I have coworkers they are usually like, Oh, this thing's going on. It's involving women. You should probably because I'm a little vocal about it at the office so and actually outside the office obviously but she he was like this thing's going on I couldn't attend so I just sent the organizer an email and I said I'm so sorry I couldn't see I didn't get to watch your webinar on what you guys are up to. So it turns out we had another meeting and she brought in their intern is a nonprofit that and the intern is. I think she was she's going into mechanical like each back. So she's, she's doing a not engineer and she's, she's in the, in the trades, she's starting that process. And so that's her in that's the group intern. And so she had to sit there and listen to us chat and I, you know, did what I sort of do with the peeking out on what we can do and what we should do and so this group was started by a woman in the trades who is you know seeing the issues we're seeing and she wants to go earlier than high school and so they are a brand new organization that is focusing on girls and getting tools and girls hands and having them just understand what they are. And I was actually, I was on Facebook the other day and I thought there was another, there's another group that's similar. I think it's tools and TRS possibly. And so there's this group, these groups that are going out and they're making sure that girls feel comfortable with tools and like I grew up. And it was funny. My dad actually passed away a couple like last year and my brother's like I just got to hold the flashlight and I was not the person that held the flashlight. I got to do all the work. And so my dad must have trusted me. And so I'm like, Oh, you got to hold the flashlight. That's it. You like whatever he did work around the house, you know, I was, I was in there, you know, I was in there, you know, using every tool I know what they are. I know what the names are, all that stuff. And I do home improvement stuff constantly, but I was like this is great because they're right, you know, if you think your girls are excluded from those kinds of even if they probably don't get to even hold the flashlight. You know, they don't, they don't get to see what's going on with them, you know, keeping up a house, you know, working on a car, any other thing those things are all just kind of those are opportunities that aren't happening. So this group is really focusing on on young girls and because of COVID this product was amazing. This because of COVID they had all these summer camps set up, but they're, they weren't able to do them. And so they took all the funding that they'd received and bought a an air stream and outfitted it so they could actually remotely go and have outdoor events and like kind of one session events as opposed to the camps that they were that had been planning locally. I was like, that's amazing. And they named it pal. And it was like, and it's this big, you know, there's a lot of traction there and it's like that's just, it's fun. And it's like the, you know, girl to code kind of idea. But, but for the, for me, physical stuff has always been more interesting, you know, you push like this my structural engineering is something I like you push on a wallet pushes back, that's why it doesn't fall down. And that sort of thing. So that's been really interesting to hear about and they're also folks they have they have two focuses, their original focus was on the young girls, but they also want to support women. Currently working and so they have a women at work advisory council that I'm starting to get involved with as one of the structural engineers and I just we just had a meeting. Last week, I think, where I got to see all these women across the country, who are all like CEOs of different, you know, like of an aluminum manufacturer and then there was a woman, all these people with all these these sweet names and I was like, what am I doing here. But, but it's so cool to see everyone getting behind this idea and supporting it. So, and sometimes I'm wondering like, well, this should be one effort because then we're we're too splintered but at the same time, getting involved locally is really where you start. And this group really wants to go national and they're going to be working with the national women and construction group so they're getting like they're, they're brand new so but they're, they're working on really amazing things. And it's just, it's exciting, especially when you're kind of stuck at home, and you're like, well, we'll never go back to the office and all that stuff that to see this sort of thing happening is is exciting, and being a part of it is even more. And I think that's, I think that's what's so cool about it too is, you know, there is this, especially with the, like you're mentioning with the trades, you know, there is that whole other workforce and obviously mostly male dominated but once you get these people in it, I think it just really opens up a new door for the next generation because, you know, I'm opening up like the steel magazine and I see women welders and that's already imprinted in my mind, but think of what it's doing for the next generation. And so I just think that's what's so cool about it is because yeah you are taking away that I don't know that stereotype and you're making a new stereotype of seeing what what the industry is it's not just man but a whole group of women leaders. Jenny, I did want to ask one. My last question is a career related for anyone that wants to, you know, kind of following your career path so you're working in, you know the consulting industry. What did you get into kind of this position I don't even know what you would call it. Because, right, because you're, I guess what would you describe it someone wanted to kind of get in your position maybe work for the AISC industry would they just, you know, like Google, something like where was it the solution center because it does seem like a cool career like what you do so how would they go on that career path how would they get into it, do they need to get in touch with with the organizations or, or do you have any advice for someone that wants to go in that career path. Yeah, I think that maybe we could group it as sort of non traditional engineering roles and, and he'll see also offers, like that these there's a lot of companies that that that really harness the engineering education that you you know in school but also working and and so looking for non traditional roles is challenging. I wasn't necessarily looking for this I was actually when I when I moved here to AISC I also interviewed at more consulting positions and and I was, I had just had my first child and I was trying to kind of I wanted I was, I was weighing whether I needed I wanted to like leave and it felt like at the time it felt like leaving. It's really not leaving at all because I'm actually more connected now than I probably was as a consultant to our industry, but that this is, this was this position came up for me because we're actually in the same building, and I was already friends with people at AISC because AISC is a Chicago based company I was already in Chicago. And I think that there are recruiters that specifically work on non traditional roles. There's, and I think they actually I worked with them I've spoken with them before in pre at previous times when I was looking to kind of make a change, and nothing really came up at the time but then. It was funny when I took the job at the ISC Brian clan called me and said so you you got that job that I was probably going to call you about. So, I guess that the answer for kind of keeping an eye open for that. If you're, if you think maybe consulting isn't isn't the where you want to be. The people who you talk to to support you are also engineer, I guess is where that's going so like hill T for instance, could be. Heyward Baker is a firm in Chicago that does a lot of deep foundation, all these different kinds of foundations. But they have a marketing group that has to be smart about what they're talking about so they can talk to engineers. You know they don't they have. So, there's a lot of like company dynamics that I probably didn't understand coming out of school because that wasn't a part of our education. So, I think, thinking about the companies that you work with on a regular basis as a consulting engineer, and realize that those people also have that engineering background that's why they can talk to you the way they, they can, they can support you that way, technically, and maybe that might be a different, a different environment for you. And some of them are more remote. We have like the marketing staff we have out around the country, they all work from their cities. We don't we see them, well, we don't get to see them in person very much anymore with COVID but we typically see them throughout the year. But they're on their own, kind of coming up with their own way to talk about steel. This is just specific to what we work with here and, and they get to use their engineering expertise to support people. And then if they need more help, then they reach back out to us. So, I don't know if that answered the question exactly but I think there's a lot of support roles. Yeah, like I didn't realize it at the time. Yeah, that's great because it's like, sometimes there's opportunities where you might not even know it. And you know, like you said, people that are helping you they have that technical background to and. And, yeah, I think that's that's great advice, you know, keep a lookout because there's, there's those nontraditional roles that are out there but you know you just don't see them as often and they could be right under your nose so thanks for that. Yeah, one more plug I actually fabricators often have staff engineer. Yeah, which you might not realize. Yeah. Some of the bigger companies have really developed engineering departments because they have to figure out how to build your stuff. If your stuff isn't drawn well. So, they're spending a lot of a lot of time, engineering connections specifically or sometimes those are. Some contracted out but the larger firms have have really sophisticated like some of those PhDs I was telling telling you about in the committees, those are people who work with fabricators. So, it was a whole different views that I got started when I started working for ASD and meeting these people. It's just like it's incredibly impressive to know that that's who's guiding the industry. I think it's amazing you given us such a well rounded view of what really the breadth of engineering in the steel industry and I am very, very thankful for that I definitely have my eyes opened. And I think you've shared some fantastic insights with us in a variety of different ways so thank you so much Jenny for coming on the show with us. Where can our listeners connect with you or follow you or hear more of your amazing insights. I see probably the best places LinkedIn. I'm Twitter is my professional account but I'm not particularly active right now because I don't get to go on job sites and do fun pictures and stuff so. But yeah I think LinkedIn is probably the best. I will make sure I'm connecting with you immediately after this because I think you have a lot of interesting interesting perspective to share so again thank you for coming on with us and and thank you for spending the time to to educate us all. Thank you. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple podcast or wherever you tune into your podcasts until next time we wish you the best in all of your structural engineering endeavors.