 And welcome. My name is Mark Lawrence, and I'm the director of the LBJ Presidential Library and Museum here in Austin. Although the library is closed due to the COVID-19 pandemic, we're thrilled nevertheless to continue to bring you thoughtful, inspiring conversations through our virtual programming series. This evening, we're delighted to present a conversation with Sonny Hostin, the Emmy Award-winning legal correspondent and co-host of ABC's The View. Sonny will be speaking this evening about her new book, I Am These Truths, a memoir of identity, justice, and living between two worlds. Joining her will be Mark Uptigrove, the president and CEO of the LBJ Foundation. Signed, book-plated copies of I Am These Truths are now available at LBJstore.com, which offers curbside pickup at the LBJ Library here in Austin. Thanks for joining us, and thanks to our programming sponsors, the Moody Foundation and St. David's Healthcare. Now, please join me in welcoming Sonny Hostin and Mark Uptigrove. Sonny Hostin, good evening and welcome. I'm delighted to have you here and congratulations on the publication of I Am These Truths. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I wish I were seated next to you, but in this brave new world, this is how we're doing it, but I'm just thrilled to be here with you. We're delighted to have you, and you and I had the pleasure of meeting earlier this year when the LBJ Foundation, although it seems an eternity ago now, back in January, the LBJ Foundation honored Ruth Bader Ginsburg with her Liberty and Justice for All Award, and you were on hand to pay tribute to the justice. But interestingly enough, your memoir came to be to a large extent because of another associate justice on the Supreme Court. Sonia Sotomayor, talk about that. Yes, and I would never imagine in my lifetime that I would know not one, but two Supreme Court justices. I was honored and invited by your wonderful organization to meet Justice Ginsburg before she passed, such a legend. But I also met Justice Sotomayor several times and I have gotten to know her, and she asked me to help on her book tour for one of her children's books. And as we were chatting backstage, she asked me again when I was going to write my story, and I explained to her that I didn't think my story was an important enough one to write about. And she sort of was very shocked at that, and she explained to me that she thought it was very important. She said we're so much alike, we're lawyers, both former prosecutors, both Puerto Rican, both from very humble beginnings, you know, South Bronx public housing. And I said, well, Justice, you are a justice on the Supreme Court. I am not. But she impressed upon me the fact, and I also explained to the justice that I felt that my story had so many more failures, quite frankly, than successes. And when one writes a memoir, that it's important for it to be aspirational and hopeful. And I wasn't so sure that mine would do that. And she explained that it would, in fact, do that because of that. And that it was important for kids to know that your day one, that your circumstance, the circumstances that you are born into do not define who you become. And that that is a very hopeful message. And that I should write the book. And she also impressed upon me the importance of writing it in Spanish, and in English, because Spanish is my first language, as it is for the justice. And I kept my promise, my book is also done in Spanish as well. And I realize now how very important that is, because if there is a little girl or a little boy who has English as a second language and is able to read my story in his or her native language, that is a very powerful thing. Because I think being bilingual should be celebrated. And often and too often in our country, which is generally a monolingual country, that is not celebrated enough. So and finally, when a justice of the Supreme Court tells you to write a memoir, you should, right? So that is the story of as to why I just decided to write it. Well, talk about your background a little bit. You have a fascinating story. Talk about what led you to where you are today. Yeah, you know, I was born into pretty humble beginnings. My my parents were teenagers, who fell in love, but married in 1968. And my mother is Puerto Rican and Jewish. My father is African American is African American. And I realize now that the loving decision allowing interracial marriages happened in 1967. I was born and they were married just a year later. And so my life was one of sort of I was a unicorn, because our family was very unusual at the time. There weren't very many families that looked like ours. And as a result of that, we were stared at. And I was stared at I was seemingly the only one in many spaces. And that is and living in that gray area can be very difficult for a child. And I think difficult for anyone. And, and also growing up in poverty is very difficult. So growing up in the 60s and 70s through all the racial tension that was going on in an interracial family in poverty, really shaped to who I am, because my parents were social activists. And I witnessed, of course, a lot of struggle and drugs, alcoholism, all the things that come with poverty and discrimination. But I will say that with that came a lot of love and support. And also, quite frankly, a focus on education. And I believe that that is what has made me successful, that support from family and focus on education. Why I am these truths? What does that mean? Well, it comes from the Constitution. I generally see through things through the legal lens, the lawyer that I am. But it comes from the Constitution, you know, we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. It should have said men and women. And I came up with the title at the end after I had written it. And I realized that in writing a memoir, one has to be as truthful as possible, especially today, because of all the challenges that we are facing in our country and the lying, falsehoods, the untruths. And I thought after writing it, the unvarnished truth, that the truth is that we have the power to be the difference. And I realized that there is such power in being truthful about everything, but especially the ugly parts, especially the identity pieces, especially the race pieces, especially the discrimination pieces. Because the fact of the matter is you can't change anything unless you confront it with the truth. And in my book, I confront all of those issues, I think, chapter by chapter by chapter. Tony Morrison once wrote, race is the least reliable information you can have about someone. It's real information, but it tells you next to nothing. Do you think that's true? I don't think that's true. And I love Tony Morrison. You know, I agree that race is a social construct. We've made it up. But that social construct is the way this society has been structured. And it is the way black people especially are perceived before you know them. And U.S. culture, quite frankly, I mean, these aren't my words, they're the words of James Baldwin, treats black people like the ugly stepchildren. And so that being the case, race in this country is extremely important. And I think the question in front of us, as it always has been, is will we meet the promise of the country, the promise of our forefathers, that this will be a multiracial democracy in all its splendor? Or will it be a racist, segregated, unequal one? How did you come to work in the criminal justice system? Well, I had, I was someone with a lot of choice because I did well in school. I received full academic scholarships to both college and law school. And when you do well, you have a lot of opportunity, I found. And I could have worked at a big law firm, made a lot more money because you don't make that much money in the criminal justice system, especially if you work for the government. But I found that it was more tangible for someone like me, it felt real. And I also realized that the role of a prosecutor, quite frankly, was the most, that role was the most powerful in the courtroom, not the judge, not the defense attorney, but the prosecutor. And I knew that because when I was around seven, I saw my uncle stabbed in front of me. And nothing happened. The police didn't really investigate it. They took a report. But the prosecutor's office prosecuted no one. No one was brought to justice. And I do remember thinking that it wasn't right. And that the prosecutor had the decision, had all the power. And I wanted that power. I wanted the power to meet out that justice for people in underprivileged communities like my own. And I will tell you, I have received throughout my career a lot of flack for that. Because there aren't a lot of black prosecutors. In my experience, at least a lot of people of color go into civil rights work, which is incredible work, go into defense work, but not into prosecutorial work. But again, that really is the most, you have the most power in the courtroom. And the power to work effect change from within the system. They're pulling a progressive prosecution now. But I felt that that was where I could bring my talent to really make change. And I do feel that in life, you know, you can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who can't repay you. That's when you really, when you blend in passion with purpose, that's when you're really doing good work, important work. And I knew that that's where I could do the important work. Did you come out of that experience, Sunny, with more or less faith in our justice system? More. Why so? Because I know, and I know this to be true, if more people of color, because we are disproportionately represented in the system, disproportionately arrested and prosecuted, if we only took part in the system in terms of prosecution, defense, on the bench, we really would be able to change the system and make it more equitable, just make it more fair. And so I knew that I know where the, you know, where it can be changed so that it can be more effective. And I also, when I was in law school, I had the privilege of studying abroad. And what I studied was just comparative legal theories and comparative legal systems. And I studied the English system through which our system comes from. I studied the French system. I studied the Spanish system. I studied a lot of European systems. And I do believe that our system is the best one, even though it's the youngest one, it's the best one. But because of our history of systemic racism, it's broken in many ways. But it can be tweaked so that it works. So if you could wave a magic wand and make one change systemically to our criminal justice system, what would it be? It's actually, it would have to be multifactorial. It's not one piece. It would have to start with policing. It would also then, policing would have to be more effective. It would be based on a community policing model, as opposed to sort of the broken window policing that we see. It would have to be more equitable. And then I believe charging decisions would have to also be more equitable and evenly meet it out. And then it would have to go from being less punitive to being more rehabil- for there to be more rehabilitation. Those three pieces of reform would make our system much better. Have you seen community policing work in some place in this country? Has that been put into place? And is it working better? Yes, I helped put that into place in DC. I know it works, at least in the 6th District in Washington. And it works because when you have a prosecutor that sort of moves into a certain area and works with the same group of police officers and those two together work with the community, the community then begins to trust the police officers as well as the prosecutor. Now you have, when there are mental health issues, and part of the team would be a mental health professional as well. And someone that would help with education, educational resources. So now when you have a kid that has trouble in school, the police don't respond to that. When you have mental illness, the police don't respond to that. The police actually really respond to police issues like violent crime. Then when you have violent crime, let's say you have gang affiliation and if you have murder, mayhem, rape, that prosecutor knows the people in the community. Coming from that, the witnesses to that crime will come forward because that witness trusts the prosecutor and that witness knows that the prosecutor will protect the witness from the criminals in the community. Quite frankly, the criminals also know the prosecutor as well. And once the crime is eventually adjudicated, you also know the criminal. And the defendants, once they pay their debt to society, can be rehabilitated through whatever programs there are available. And that person can then somehow give back to the community that was affected by the crime. So it's a very sort of full circle process that helps the community as a whole. Almost symbiotic, it seems to me. Yes. And it worked in DC. You brought national media light to the murder of Trayvon Martin in 2012. And you write in the book, you didn't need convincing to do that story. As you write, I was viscerally connected to the story because I had a nine-year-old black son of my own. What if that were Gabriel lying on the ground? Skittles and iced tea spilled beside him, shot and left to die for no other reason than he had black skin. But you didn't have to be a black mother to be swept up in the story of Trayvon Martin. Do you think that story changed attitudes on race? Yeah, no question. My nine-year-old Gabriel is now my 18-year-old Gabriel, graduated from high school this year. I think it did. I think there's just no question about it. And I've spoken to people now. What is it for? I think it was 14 years later, I believe. No, I'm sorry, nine years later. And I believe it was the start of a new movement. I know that because Alicia Garza, who started the Black Lives Matter movement, said that they started the movement because of Trayvon Martin's shooting. And I think it was the continuation of the civil rights movement, but certainly the start of the Black Lives Matter movement. And what we see now with the Black Lives Matter movement is so much allyship. We see people of all races and ethnicities coming together to this sort of reckoning that we have with systemic racism now in our country. And I think it started with Trayvon's shooting and death. And it continues. And when you see now people protesting in New Zealand and Paris, that all, in my view, flows back from Trayvon. And I write about in my book that it was a change for me, a sea change. It was a seminal moment, not only in my life, my career as well. But the more people that I speak with, my goodness, it was that moment for them as well. Younger people now and different people are saying that moment was George Floyd's death. But Trayvon was that moment for me and many, many others. Right. You also write in the book, I think privilege has to be acknowledged. You can't be born on third base and pretend that your home runs stem from the same kind of effort that someone born on first base has to expend. Some people don't have a mitt, others don't have a bat. That needs to be recognized if we are going to resolve the many inequities that still dog our society. Do you think that people who are born on third base, those people born in privilege, like me, are more likely to acknowledge that now after the death of George Floyd? I think so. At least I'm hearing it. I'm hearing it so much more. I think there used to be this denial of it. It wasn't shame-based. It was almost an ignorance to it. We're all born the same. There's this level, not only a level playing field, but you can do it too. Well, it's not so easy when you don't have a bat or a ball or a mitt. It's just not. I'm a living testament to it. It's really difficult to do. Now I am hearing many people acknowledge the fact that, yes, I was born on third base. Yes, I know it was harder for you. Yes, I know that we may be at the same place, but it was harder for you to get here. It is still harder for you to even stay here alongside me. I may even get ahead and get more promotions than you, simply because of my privilege. I see people acknowledging it and asking the question, what has been your experience and how can I be an ally? How can I help? I will tell you, I have never heard that. I have never heard before. How can I help? What can I do to make a difference? It hasn't been in a performative way. It has been in an action-based way. That's a real change, I think. So why now, Sonny? We've had these inflection points in the past that come in the wake of tragedies. Emmett Till and Rodney King and Trayvon Martin and now Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. Why now? I think that every time it happens, we ask ourselves, is it a moment or is it a movement? Why now? Why now? I think that, why not now? I'll take it. I think it's a continuation, honestly. The civil rights movement didn't die. It continues just by the very term movement. It's not the civil rights movement. It's the civil rights movement. Ava DuVernay reminded me, and my father says, yes, it's true. My mother says, yes, it's true, that we often see the the march across the Selma Bridge, we think it's one march. We think about it as this seminal movement in the movement. Well, they march across that bridge three times, and oftentimes we just think it's once. And so all these just horrific murders of unarmed black and brown people happen often, unfortunately, in our country. And we think about the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. We think about the assassination of Emmett Till. But there were so many more in between. So we think about, yes, Trayvon Martin, there are thousands in between. We think about George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, thousands, thousands more, unfortunately. So we see these flashpoints happen. But we're seeing tremendous momentum, I think. But the murders need to stop. And reform needs to happen. But I do see a change. Not only the protests, but the sustained protests and the participants of the protests, because they're so not only robust, but they're very diverse. And that is different. You see this activism, this raised consciousness leading to a movement. Will that movement lead to meaningful systemic change? I believe so. I'm very hopeful there. Maybe more hopeful than most. But I think so. I do think so. I mean, in order to have true systemic change, there has to be structural change in terms of policies and procedures. Because the true hallmarks of American democracy are opportunity, freedom, possibility, sorry, prosperity, and possibility. And typically, that's been reserved for white people. And intentionally, black people, people of color, have been excluded and oppressed so that that supremacy can be maintained. I think that in order for real change and so that we can meet those hallmarks of American democracy, once those policies and procedures are put in place, we can try to abolish that structural racism. And I believe these protests will lead to those policy changes if the federal government decides that those changes are important. Sonia, you talked about community policing being a better model. Yes. But what is it the root between the problems between the discord between police, the police and communities of color? I think that in my experience, we've gone away from law enforcement knowing the people that they are supposed to protect and serve. We've gone away from that very model, protect and serve community policing to a militarization of the model, contain, hack, arrest. It's become so aggressive. Those people, us and them, that was not always the model. In fact, when I moved from the South Bronx to Manhattan, I remember that there was an officer who would kind of patrol our very now nice neighborhood and give the kids lollipops. It was unbelievable. I was like, wow, knew all the kids' names, wave to us. That didn't happen in the South Bronx. It was a very different experience and interaction. I experienced the us and them to we are all together, let me protect and serve you. That will make a difference. That is the truth of it. They have the power to be the difference. When you engender a spirit of trust between those people that you are protecting and serving. They're there to protect and serve communities, communities of color too. Everyone should be on the same side. Sonny, what led you to become a regular host on ABC's The View? I got the opportunity to start doing a little bit of television. I had a journalism degree before I went to law school. I knew I wanted to do broadcast journalism. I will say it was something that I had always wanted to do. My mother freaked out when I told her I wanted to do it. She thought I wanted to be an actress. She didn't understand. She was like, this TV thing, you want to be an actress? What is this? She also made an observation that makes me realize now that representation really matters in the sense that she said, but there's no one on television that looks like you. You won't be able to feed yourself. That makes a lot of sense. It certainly did then. There was no Oprah then. I'm dating myself, but there wasn't any of that. You get a car. You get a car. You get a car. There's none of it. Certainly not. The serious journalism that I was interested in doing. I stopped working when I had my son because as a former sex crimes prosecutor, I didn't trust anyone with him. I didn't want anyone to babysit him until he could talk. I stopped working for a little while. I had the benefit of being able to do that. My husband was working full time and doing quite well. Then I got the opportunity to start on Core TV and just kept on getting discovered and discovered and discovered, which is something I know now is very unusual. Apparently it just doesn't happen, but it happened to me. It's a blessing. I'd like to think that somehow it was destiny somehow because I try to use the position on the view to give voice to people that don't have one. I'm very intentional when I take an authentic position always, but I try to give voice to those folks in the South Bronx or in urban cities around the country that don't have a platform to let other people know what they're thinking. It's working because there isn't a day that goes by when someone doesn't reach out to me and say, thank you for saying that. That's exactly what I was thinking. People don't understand. Then I think, okay, I think I can do this for a little while longer. Seems to me that's exactly why you were discovered as unusual as that is. Was it an adjustment to become a regular on that show? You're dealing with a handful of very strong women, clearly, which was what makes the show, but was it difficult to fit in? You write that you felt like an outsider your whole life. Was it difficult fitting into that environment? It was very difficult, honestly. I certainly felt like I was being treated differently than the other hosts. I found the loss of anonymity to be really hard. You get an opportunity to be a talk show host and you think, for me, I thought, let's try it. I guess I didn't realize it was the number one talk show in the country and that they actually watch it in Australia and watch it all over the world. Three million people watch it every day. You really can't go out the way you used to. It's such a blessing to have that kind of platform. That part was certainly an adjustment, but it was also an adjustment to talk about things on television that people aren't even supposed to talk about during polite dinners. We talk about all the taboo, allegedly taboo topics, and we are very different. You have to be authentic and give your perspective knowing that you're probably going to tick off about 50% of the country and be accountable for that and stand in your truth about it and get all the hate mail and be okay with that and be judged for it. I know the Constitution gives us the right to free speech, but you also are accountable for it when you're a public person. That took some getting used to. No question. I'm still getting used to it. What is your most memorable moment on the show? It's been a series of moments, the fact that every single presidential candidate has come on our show still floors me. It floors me when the New York Times deemed us the most important political show in our country. I spoke to Vice President Biden on my cell phone. I think that at that moment I thought, what am I doing here? I wrote an op-ed for the Washington Post about the fact that I thought that along with other women, a group of Black women, that he should pick a Black woman as his vice presidential candidate. Along with a lot of hate mail and comments that I received, I also spoke to the vice president and other people. The enormity of this platform and the position was sobering, I guess, for lack of a better term. It was sobering for me how very important the position is. So you're an up-from-the-boot straps kid from the Bronx who makes good and finds herself on the most important talk show in America. Do you still feel like an outsider? Yeah. No question. I still feel that way. I feel that way every day. I wouldn't say I feel like I have the imposter syndrome or that the Empress doesn't wear any clothes. I don't feel that. I'm secure in who I am. I'm secure in my identity, but I am an outsider still in this country. This success doesn't shield me from racism or discrimination. It doesn't shield me from the ills of our society. My celebrity doesn't shield me from that, and I understand that very well. I'm still a person who racially is black and white, so I live in the gray, and I'm still very much an outsider. What is the one lesson you would want young people in particular to take from your life story? That's a tough one. I think the lesson is, and I probably said this a bunch of times, but it's something that I truly believe is that the truth is we have the power to be the difference. I think that if the kid from the South Bronx Projects is sitting here speaking to you, and was, you know, with the LBJ Foundation speaking in front of a room of people honoring Justice Ginsburg, I've spoken and I've testified in front of Congress. I'm on the most important, you know, political show in America. I think anyone can do it. I really do. I think the truth is that everyone, a little boy, a little girl of color born into the same circumstance with the right power, sorry, support and opportunity has the power to be the difference. I truly, truly believe that, and I hope they take that away. I hope that's the takeaway from my book. The book is I Am These Truths. A very special guest is Sonny Hostin. Sonny, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Thank you so much. My thanks to Sonny Hostin. For signed copies of Sonny's book, I Am These Truths, go to lbjstore.com, now offering curbside pickup. If you've enjoyed this program, become a friend of the LBJ Library at lbjfriends.org. I'm Mark up to Grove. See you next time.