 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, distinguished panelists. Welcome to the special event, Charest Fira, Impact of Retreating Glaciers. I'm Yulia Vistamina, Senior Water Program Officer, and today we will discuss how glaciers impact us, our culture, our environment. Why it is important to consider it, how it's integrated in UN agency agenda, and what we can do. Please, let me to start to introduce our panelists. So today with us, we have Johannes Kuhlman, he's UN water vice chair. We will have Yolanda Lopez, who is indigenous Maya community woman, but also hydrologist and hydrogeologist. We have Adrienne Lema, Director of National Center for Climate Research. And we have Irina Garadecki, she is lead on IPCC report on physical science, but also senior research in center of marine environment research and the University of Porta with huge experience on Antarctica. So starting also we have our special guest Martin Krause, who will give a closing remark to the event. So please let me to start from Johannes. You have very experienced UN leader. Please, can you tell us how glacier agenda is covered in UN agenda and why it is important to consider? Good. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. Julia, I'm happy to be here and discuss a topic that is coming up more and more and more. So if we think I'm my home organization it's the WMO World Meteorological Organization and I started as the water and climate director. But then after the years, I've become the water and cryosphere coordinator. So because in climate adaptation first, there was this big discussion around the cryosphere. And so I think within this whole discussion that came through the more earth system view on things and not only weather or not only water or climate, we have realized that the cryosphere is such an important factor. And for cryosphere scientists, this had always been clear. But for UN system policy making, this hasn't been so clear. So yes, our water is stored in the cryosphere. The cryosphere changes so fast. And then of course the first natural thing is that people think about, okay, what's the change in water availability and there's huge impacts on the Indus River. We have almost 50% of the water that comes from the cryosphere. I have been part of a study in my home country, Germany, where I worked some time before. And in our case, the seven day low flow in our biggest rivers is more than 30% from snow and ice melt. And that impacts the cooling water availability for our power plants, the transport capacity of bulk goods that we need for our industry. So the impacts are so manyfold in terms of how cryosphere relates to really the different dimensions of sustainable development. And that's economics, but it's of course also environment and it's also society because it impacts people and it of course has your microphone. Okay, so yeah, there we go. Cryosphere is such an important part. It has been neglected in the past I think. And in this discussion around where are now the chances for us to change the course of how we perceive plan and implement sustainable development. I think cryosphere is an important role because we tend to think about the negative consequences of glacier melt and sea level rise, but we also need to think where are the positive lessons that we can draw and implement on this fact that's happening. We cannot change the glacier melt, but we can think about how can we invent green and gray solutions that let us take over some of the functions or so that we have had the service that we have received from the cryosphere. And in that regard, I think the positive externalities is the keyword because nobody will invest in preventing glaciers. That's not a business case. That doesn't work. But if we think what are there in relation to other economic, social and environmental trade-offs, what can we gain from the cryosphere and how can we use that change that is negative and dramatic in a way that we plan resilient systems for the future? I think that is the key. And that has to do of course with food, with energy and water availability, but also with disaster risk reduction and so forth. So that was a bit the general intro and philosophy and how does that relate to the UN? I think in the UN water, we have after the big water conference in New York, very well realized that we need to transform the global acceleration framework that we had for water to a broader scope to mainstreamness in water and climate and cryosphere. And to that end, we are now developing in the UN system a common UN strategy and implementation plan on water so that not all the different parts of our system do something related only to food and FAO and only to data in the organization that I come from and only to the good and super important the isotope hydrology that you are doing, but we need to bring that stuff together and we need to develop a common log frame and implementation plan because else we always have to invest more and more and more and the real issue is how do we understand how we can invest differently, how we can perceive water differently in an economic way and how we can then find a solution that's also good for the people and the environment. So we have this strategy development now, the first draft will be discussed on the 15th of December now, so we are really in the final stages of trying to organize the first draft of this strategy and it will certainly also try to address these cryosphere issues. And then maybe the last thing because our friends from Tajikistan were with the Netherlands co-organizing the water conference, one of the outcomes is also that we will have in 2025 a special year that is dedicated in the UN on the topic of glaciers, so that's also an important step that we will have on the way to, yeah, the 2030 deadline and in 2030 we will have to have an alternative systems thinking, I think one that transforms our extractive systems into circular systems are trying to have big monocultural solutions for problems in agriculture or energy to a more diversified system. So I think there are a couple of key guidance principles for us which are diversification, which are circularity, which are inclusion, which are a different way of economic thinking and I think that's enough for me for a start for introduction. If you don't stop me, I'll talk for another 15 minutes and my luggage is still in Zurich and probably my brain is also still in Zurich. So thank you for the time and thank you for the invitation. Thank you for excellent overview and to show us how multi-dimensional this problem and how UN agency support in different ways. And also we mentioned very important point like science and here I would like to ask Adrian. From the scientific perspective and beyond, how can we better understand glacier melt but also a grass fear collapse on our ecosystems? What are the scientific tools? What can best measure it? Thank you so much and thank you very much for inviting. That's a very big question and I'll try to give a few pointers. But first I think since we are in this setting, I'd like to start out with a small anecdote. So in the 50s, we had a very famous Danish climatologist, Willie Danskort, who were on the Greenland ice sheet looking up at the clouds and really wanted to measure what are the temperature of clouds and that's pretty difficult. But he discovered that maybe he could use isotope research to do that. So he actually pioneered that research and later evolved into ice cores to determine what are the past climate changes that have happened. So I think in this setting it would be suitable just to give a warm thought to Willie Danskort back then. But also of course climate is changing now and especially it's impacting the cryosphere. So we know that for instance in the Arctic region, we have an amplification of global warming. So the global warming is about four times higher than the global average is. So it's really changing fast relative to global warming in general. And those changes are really having a huge impact. So we're trying to understand especially how can we assess those changes in the best possible ways. And I think when it comes to glaciers and the cryosphere in general, we do know that the glaciers are retreating. They are melting and they are retreating at a faster pace than usual. So for instance in Greenland, which is, and in the Arctic, which is a special interest of course too to us in Denmark, the mass loss of the Greenland ice sheet has been retreating or decreasing for 27 years in a row now. So it's really picking up pace unfortunately. And we of course, as a low-lying country in Denmark, we are of course very interested in how does that change the sea level because the sea level is rising. It's rising quite fast. We do know from especially from satellite data that the pace of increase is about more than double now as it was compared to the 1990s. So just within a few decades, the sea level has been rising more than double than it was on an annual basis a few decades ago. We are really engaged in how can we assess these changes and we look into of course different types of observations both on the ground and from satellite and then incorporating those data in high-resolution models which is really the key task here. I'll think I'll come back to that maybe later if time allows but that's really a core task. But what we also would like to do and do even more is assessing what are the impacts of the changes that we experience. So some of the changes we know very well and I think someone in the panel is maybe more noticeable than I am on that. But especially in terms of water resources and scarcity of water resources, it can have a huge impact around the globe where we have mounting glaciers especially but also in some parts of Greenland actually. Also I think the increase of natural hazards is something we need to be aware of. So when glaciers melt, they do increase the risk of landslides for instance and avalanches and it changes both the communities and the ecosystems in fundamental ways. I'd also like to mention that when it comes to Greenland for instance, there are both positive and negative impacts of glacier retreats and I'm not the one to determine what the balance are but I think I would be inclined to say that maybe the negative impacts are larger but there are both positive and negative. So for instance in Greenland they're looking into and we're helping to look into the future runoff from the ice sheet and glaciers in terms of rivers. So how can they utilize that in terms of hydroelectricity which is of course one source. Another source of possible positive impacts would be when the freshwater reaches the fjords it causes a stirrup of nutrients and plankton which are useful for fish and then of course for fishery after that. So the marine productivity may actually benefit at least in some cases to this melt. But then again, the negative impacts are also there also in Greenland. So on top of those that I've already mentioned I think especially when you are dependent on traveling on the ice on your dog sled or on your snowmobile, whenever that becomes more unstable that's a huge risk for you as a hunter, a gatherer and for the local communities and that's really something that we're looking into. We're both looking into how that instability is appearing but also how can we help them using satellite data and machine learning and artificial intelligence to see where they can be and where they can't be. So these are some of the impacts that are also there in Greenland for instance. And I'll stop here but thank you very much. Thank you very much. It's like a diversity of scientific tool what you open for us and also clearly show impact positive and negative on the example of Greenland. And I would like now to continue a little bit of a scientific discussion but also thanks to about the mentioning of isotopic hydrology that we are working on to precise also climate models. And we continue this subject. I would like to turn to Irina who will tell us maybe more about Antarctica because for me Antarctica is far and I know I'm worried about what is melting but I still don't understand how it's impact me, how it's impact people who is far from Antarctica. So Irina is scientist with very advanced experience in Antarctica. Well, largest amount of glacier in the world actually we know what exist. And what we expect in the future and how can we use isotopic hydrology because I know you told me with secret what you're now using isotopic hydrology. How we can use isotopic hydrology to better understand where's extreme events what affecting Antarctica. Thank you Yulia and thank you for coming to our session. And I will be talking while on behalf of the Antarctic community. I'm an atmospheric scientist, researcher working in Antarctica and doing measurements in Antarctica. So I'm going to Antarctic Peninsula every year. And what we see is that there is really a lot of melt now happening in the entire Antarctica mostly from West Antarctica and Antarctic Peninsula but also starting part of the East Antarctica melting. And exactly as Yulia has mentioned, this is far remote and we wonder like why does it affect us and how does it affect us? But actually we have now, so the melting from mountain glaciers, from ice sheets both Greenland and Antarctica are already now contributing they're major contributors to the global sea level rise along with the thermal expansion of the ocean. And actually if you take the entire increase of the global sea level rise a lot from the ice sheets it has been increasing about four millimeter per year globally. So I think this is really a small number. I mean I can compare it to my pinky fingernail so this is like less than four millimeter but actually this is averaged global sea level rise. So we are talking about the entire surface of the global ocean. So if it was related to the amount of water that has been added to the ocean so we're talking about trillions of cubic meters of water which is a huge amount. And when we talk about regional effects so we have actually there is this gravitational pull so the mass loss from Antarctica it affects directly not the southern ocean but actually there is the decrease in sea level rise just in the nearby Antarctica but by this gravitational pull so the water redistributes quite fast matter of several days around the globe and the direct impact is actually on the most distant regions so the equatorial regions where we have the slow line islands and northern hemisphere lands or the coastal regions in the northern hemisphere. So this is really alarming now the changes that we see now and the problem is that this has been accelerating so we have so Antarctica has been more or less stable until well the 2000 something like in the last two decades actually there has been strong acceleration of the amount from Antarctica and it's been accelerating and this acceleration is actually continuing every year and if you continue at the same pace of the global warming and the impact on Antarctica and Greenland and the mountain glaciers the projections show that we may have up to one meter or even higher of sea level rise by the end of the 21st century. And I'm saying higher because Antarctica is actually behaving in a may behave and it's already starting to behave in a stable manner. So now compared to Greenland and mountain glaciers the contribution to sea level rise from Antarctica is slightly less but in the future already in the next 15 years and especially in the next 50 years this contribution from Antarctica can be much larger and it's projected to be much larger and this uncertainties actually they are they call them instabilities so they are really high risk instabilities that may cause even three meter of sea level rise by the end of the century and by 2300 it can be 12 to 20 meters of sea level rise. So we're talking about huge numbers here, right? And they about the future changes of Antarctica and about your question of the isotope hydrology. So this is one of the tools we are using in Antarctica. So we are using stable water isotopes and we measure, we take samples of precipitation in Antarctica and in particular in my research I study extreme events, extreme weather events in Antarctica and they're really important around the globe and especially in Antarctica and we can use the stable water isotopes to understand not only the temperature locally because they are our proxy they're our local thermometer as was discovered by Dansgard but we can also understand the sources of moisture where it comes from and its pathways and what we have seen, we have a paper just published in the actually yesterday that the extreme events in the February 2022 and last year which was the record high melt on the Antarctic Peninsula it was actually caused by the water evaporated of the subtropical Pacific so there is a link, we call them teleconnections so there is a link what happened in Antarctica to the subtropical Pacific with the moisture sources and we also link this to the tropical convection so there is all this interlink between the climate change in the low, lower latitudes in Antarctica and then Antarctica responded to this change by a lot of melt and adding actually a lot of instability risk of increasing the stability to the ice shelves and the ice shelves in Antarctica they have this buttressin effect so they actually hold the glaciers in Antarctica and they don't let them to accelerate and to go into the ocean and to melt so why when we lose the ice shelves actually we lose this buttressin effect we lose the support and once we lose the ice shelves which are already floating so they don't contribute directly to the sea level rise but once we have them disintegration disintegrating the glaciers that have been supported by this ice shelves start accelerating so this is again a very remote region and when we speak about the future changes we have to be really aware of this long term changes that especially Antarctica has a slow response and now accelerating response can bring us and we see these changes now and the changes in the near term future and especially in the long term future speaking about the generations I had about our children and the children of our children this is a high risk danger from Antarctica which is reacting to the global warming Thank you very much so now we can see what even it's remote it still impact us and it's actually like daily and also we mentioned about extreme events and isotope hydrology and here with us we have Svetlana Krakowska from the Vernadsky station we have the longest records of isotopes in precipitation in Vernadsky station in Antarctica without any interruption for 60 years so thank you for this now we can precisely use it in different models and thank you for mentioning also about the diverse tools and we heard about science but what about the local community, local people so let me ask the next question to Yolanda Yolanda as a representative of my community but also hydrology with the long experience in crash sphere started because you had your research in Canada also and what role can indigenous people and local people play in the better understanding of the role of glacier melt in crash sphere and how we can collect this local information to global scale thank you very much for the invitation and to the panelists, thank you also very much I want to please start with a clarification when I'm talking about indigenous knowledge it's not separated to the western science so we also indigenous people we have our own science and it's important for me to clarify this at the very beginning because it's politically and ethically correct to include different knowledge systems for understanding earth processes because this world is so complex that we really need to bring into the table and into the decision making other ways of understanding problems and to provide solutions we can find frozen water all around different areas and in this planet especially in the north and in polar regions of course but we also can find indigenous people there and local communities as well, living and Julia you just asked how this glacier melting and shrinking of the permafrost will affect you and other people but imagine how these complex events will affect people living specifically in those places so it is very important to consider other understandings of the planet and the earth processes and when I'm talking about this and all the time when I'm giving a talk about indigenous knowledge or indigenous science everyone, I don't know, start thinking about esotericism about indigenous peoples are so wise and they take about modern nature which is true and it is very important but it's important also to consider that local and indigenous knowledge spans from different scales and levels from the local to the global so we have precise and accurate understanding with methods and approaches and our own indigenous tools and how to take measurements of the local conditions and this apparently now is attracting attention to these UN forums or those organizations that they really want to make sense of local or in situ observations to bring this information, this data into the global monitoring of water processes or earth processes in general so it makes sense also to include other ways of thinking and how to do this is a challenge of course, actually yesterday I had a really wonderful conversation with someone that was asking me that particular question how we can bring this in knowledge of the people living there and it is important to first to think that there are methods, tools and approaches to do that that comes not from Western science but from indigenous epistemologies and ontologies so there is a way of naming the ice in different regions and there is a way to predict where the snow is going to arrive in that particular day and it's very precise and accurate and I think satellites and this global information data is crucial but we are really going in a line that is not very good for humanity in general and we are crossing different planetary boundaries and we are talking here that we have scientists traveling to those places to understand what's happening but why not to work alongside the people living there and respect their ways of thinking and their ways of understanding those natural processes we are talking about the EI intelligence and why we are using other intelligence that we have intelligence in that particular places and the main message I want to bring for you and for the audience is that it's important to consider indigenous peoples as allies for understanding earth processes because indigenous peoples they were the first earth observers of the planet so they were very good in determining astronomical events that they are not happening they need to happen in the future so we need to really include this a different perspective into the decision making and I can give examples but I'm sure we will continue with the discussion yeah thank you very much thank you for giving us another dimension now we can see how it's dimensional the problem of glacier from one side we have science we have data we have models from another side we have local people who rely on the melting glacier for using this water and rely fully on agriculture and food production from those glaciers and we also should consider we have diversity of tool to collect the data and this is our benefits it's our perspective to use this data properly please let me to turn to another part of our discussion what we can do now because we always tell about the problem it exists we have negative positive impact we can predict but what we can do how we can mitigate but also probably because it's water how we can adapt to this change and let me to back to Antarctica question a little bit to back to this remote area and to ask Irina again so what actually we can do to stop all these problems so how we can adapt or mitigate these problems what now we are facing with melting of Antarctica what can be the solution I know that it doesn't exist exact some recipe but what can be our participation in that that's a difficult question with a very simple answer we have to decrease our emissions we have to go net zero we have to achieve the 1.5 degree global warming and regarding to Antarctic impacts around the globe which are already huge now so there are impacting population ecosystems around the biodiversity around the globe so when we are talking about the impacts on speaking about people there are 600 million people living in the coastal areas so this is global sea level rise caused by the amount of Antarctica it's already have this impact and will continue stronger in the future with the coastal flooding with the tidal effects with shoreline erosion with saltwater contamination or freshwater aquifers and streamlines so this things will become even stronger in the future and the message from the crisis community is actually very simple that it's and we have to keep this the Paris Agreement we have to keep this as the goal like one and a half degree and not more and actually with respect to Antarctica it cannot even stay long at the one and a half degrees because passing this threshold it will trigger a lot of tipping points in Antarctica so we have we're in the danger that big parts of western Antarctica will start disintegration it's already disintegrating it's already started but it will be faster and faster and there will be this really huge amounts of ice being lost from western Antarctica and then eastern Antarctica will start destabilize as well so we can if we can still adapt to the changes now the changes that happen in the cryosphere and the changes within the cryosphere and globally that is caused by the cryosphere we can still adapt to them if we keep the global warming below one and a half degrees but if you go beyond this if you go to two degrees if you go beyond the two degrees that can cause more than three meter global sea level rise we can even go to twelve to twenty meters by twenty three hundred which is huge right this is already not a pink this is huge amounts really so and uh... what our actions now basically they will uh... determine the uh... the future multiple generations because the way Antarctica responds to to global warming it's it's like a slow giant like it's really moving really slowly but then when it steps on you it crashes it's like and it can also fall down like and then it's it's it's will have really catastrophic impact so this the three level uh... the three meter global sea level rise it can wipe out the entire low uh... lion nations and the uh... the shorelines so this is what we are facing now in the already in by the end of the century and we are talking about again the generations of children to uh... young daughters and uh... they are uh... they're facing this they will be facing this when they are adults so they are they are like uh... and we when we speak about the uh... again the Antarctic response it's uh... this tipping points which are really dangerous because we are starting to understand them now using observations using high resolution models using more understanding of uh... physics and chemistry and biology happening there so we have gained a lot of knowledge now we can say for sure that this is the message is clear that the mountain point is not listening to any negotiations it's simple physics when it's too warm mountain and what we can do now our actions now they will uh... be felt in the several generations of the uh... of the future thank you very much thank you for mentioning about future generation recently we had snow in Vienna and i just recognize what my son it's only he's eighty years old but it's only second time he was able to ice like ice skating his uh... life before we did it very regularly so now even we are losing this type of activities thank you for mentioning this important aspect and i would like to ask adrian we have also another very important IPCC panel what is working on that what aspects need attention in the new cycle of this intergovernmental panel on climate change we know is APCC and how we can involve broader community scientific because we know scientists mostly work in one specific field and very rarely go to the broader how we can involve more scientific groups to this problem what help us to mitigate and probably adapt to this change yeah thank you so much uh... excellent question and just uh... for your son uh... don't come to denmark them because we measured that we uh... as a very cold Nordic country we have three weeks less of winter now compared to before we started uh... uh... in the greenhouse gases so uh... so that's uh... that's quite a lot a lot less snow unfortunately um... so i think that many of the points uh... just raised here are very very uh... uh... important in terms of where should the scientific agenda uh... go so i'll talk a bit about a few other things i think uh... one big issue of course is uh... understanding better how the cryosphere is changing so that's the physical part we just uh... we just heard about what we need to do in particular thing is to bridge that insight to the local impacts that we are experiencing uh... around the world and i appreciate very much the the point about uh... indigenous peoples uh... experiences and local communities experiences and i think it's that bridge that really could benefit to to be more integrated so for instance when when uh... physical sciences uh... doing their models that's good what we need to do is to bridge that to other disciplines and to the local communities in terms of how the impacts uh... uh... working on a local scale uh... just to take uh... one example i think there are many communities around the world that at the moment i experiencing and increase of freshwater resources that's very good but the problem is of course that that increase is not lasting for very long so it's about to peak and and how does that change both the uh... the uh... the culture the ability to live in different communities and how i think uh... we also had a comment about that earlier how can communities adapt to those changes so that's really how we need to to integrate the different types of disciplines that uh... that happen it is starting but it's not uh... uh... enough integrated another thing that is really important thing is for the uh... this scientific community to be directed towards the uh... the the needs of local communities so for instance when we at uh... the danish biological institute and and my climate center when we uh... uh... use our efforts to understand changes in in uh... in the arctic region we also try to uh... involve uh... local communities to understand where should we put our efforts into so for instance the what i mentioned before about the uh... the the c eyes and the ability to to move on the c eyes as local communities that's really uh... one of the key issues for for inuit and and local communities to to understand better so that's that's uh... the coupling that we that we want to do uh... and then more broadly i'd do appreciate that that we need other types of information but i really think that uh... in order to evolve especially on on the model side we do need uh... machine learning and not to fill and artificial intelligence it's it's not everything but it's one very important tool because we are working in very inaccessible areas greenland is huge not uh... compared to an article but it's it's quite big and uh... and we don't have enough measurements so using satellite data the measurements that we have on ground and using uh... machine learning tools to integrate into our models to get uh... a larger variety of of uh... an understanding uh... brisk and uncertainties in the models is a key area that we need to uh... work more nothing it's my lovely stuff to get the official intelligence and they're using it's very often now for eyes at all because i thought that's compared to measurements like meteorological hydrological the integrate more information so they can be very useful to predict diversity of change in one measurements so thank you yes we are also developing and they are going for the first it will be nice to cooperate also in the subject all together because the data is growing amount of the data growing but some sometimes we have also lack of data this is also helpful and artificial intelligence but also we can feel it this may be local information let me go back to the local information because it's also very important to feel also this gap but also to integrate the diversity of different uh... groups uh... social groups who participate in this problem who can help us to mitigate and adapt to this change yolanda how can hydrologists and experts bring local community knowledge what can help us to improve models what can help us to participate in mitigation and adaptation to this change what we experience now thank you julia again uh... well of course this is not an easy uh... task and it requires a lot of work but the first thing is to really recognize the value of indigenous science is not about personal experience is science is precise and is accurate and the other is why we don't use this because we don't have it published on journals and papers I'm also a scientist and I know how the academic system functions so we publish a paper we get a publications and we cite each other and the information is circulating within ourselves and just a few are a few papers really influence policy and practice why we don't have in those journals and academic papers indigenous science indigenous information because unfortunately indigenous people we have been experiencing a loss of our own knowledge due to the different historical processes but the first step is to recognize that is a valid and is accurate and precise information and the next step could be for example to really include in situ observations of the people into the models and you probably may ask how I will do that but it's important to work alongside for example the hydrologists but to use the knowledge of the people in to get your estimations for your models first a local level and then to probably expand with all their technologies and other tools in order to have this global perspective also the people indigenous knowledge is locally based but also it is different among different groups so it's not for example and Maya and the Mayas were a water-oriented society they were very good in estimating changes on the water cycle they were very good engineers they modified the landscape according to their needs and the hydrological cycle within my region is totally different to the hydrological cycle people like the Sami or the Inuit or the Anishinaabe they experience in their own places so it's the knowledge they have is about the water cycle but it's locally based so they really adapt their conditions to survive in different places so you will have different information depending on the side you are doing your studies or modeling or doing whatever is needed in order to understand the process and another step could be for example to really invite indigenous scholars which like myself and I have other colleagues in attending this event in which we are we know how to speak the scientific language but we can bring our indigenous understanding of the the processes of our planet so we can start by doing small little steps until we reach all together as humanity a point in which we all can thrive thank you very much it's remind me one proverb but we told a long time ago act locally but think globally and very often now with these global models we are losing this local part so we are trying to also artificial intelligence is nice too but we try to generalize everything and not to look with specific things what we have this diversity what we have on our planet thank you very much and I'm sorry Hannah's I keeping you on pause for some time and would like to ask you the last question on our panel how from the UN perspective what some measurements can implement can be implemented to adapt to this challenge what we now discussed and how we can ensure a sustainable water management under these conditions okay that's the million dollar question I think a lot of data is there so we always talk about that we need more and better data I think we have a lot I think what we need I don't say we need to stop measuring so I I come from an organization where we always advocate for more measurements also more ground based measurements and more local measurements because if you want to understand the hydrological cycle that I have worked my for my master thesis in the Amazon and when I went there I thought okay I'm gonna do some piezometers and seepage meters here and then with a couple measurements I know how much water infiltrates or exfiltrates from the lakes in the Amazon but actually the infiltration rate varied like 2 000 percent over a few tens like decar meters you cannot the sub grid or sub scale variability in our processes is always so high that if you just come with a satellite alone it won't work so but what I want to say is we need to be aware of the different scales and the different types of data and information that we need and then most importantly we need to stick that together because it doesn't help if the cryosphere scientist does isotope studies in Greenland ice but the hydrologist doesn't understand what it means for the hydrological cycle in there water management oriented modeling and artificial intelligence is a good tool that we can use but it's an interpolator it's not an extrapolator so we cannot predict something that hasn't been known or observed or that doesn't work so that that's just a that's just not possible so we can use all those new technologies to understand better and to give people a better foundation for management and then I think it comes to this dictomy between policymaking or top-down management and what actually the people need to know and also want to do so and I mean we are now in Dubai and yeah when we stand under the shower here the perception is different and we stand under the shower in Denmark maybe so I think that that dimension is also linked to it so water management I think must be supported by the most adequate information and I will do one minute in terms of explaining how that works I mean we are human beings we work on heuristics we can't even catch a ping-pong ball or a tennis ball without our brain playing a trick because our system is not able to catch a ball when we process how the ball comes to us and we have to move the hand to catch it so the brain does a trick with us and we just look at the angle that the ball is coming in and then we can catch this ball so we don't understand the whole process but we make a decision that leads us to be able to catch the ball or the apple that falls from the tree or what so the brain is under these heuristics all the time and if we don't understand that we use and we use different ways to take decisions but yeah I'll finish that okay then then I think we are missing the point we're trying to explain stuff to people that they cannot apply so I think that is a wrong assumption that scientists very often have we don't understand how people take a decision I came to that as a flood forecaster I thought why are the people not taking away their cars because it has always went okay in the past that's a heuristic mechanism and so to take right decisions we need to understand the levels of willingness of people to engage on a certain type information that I think that is for me the key thing isotopes are a nice thing to use in that regard because you can very easily explain to people how much water is where and when and this knowledge about how water is moving on the earth in the solid or in a liquid phase or in a gas phase I think is what must underlie the information of people to take a decision that is a little less heuristic and a bit more aware and yeah if we can do that I think that would be beautiful thanks thank you yeah when I take a shower in Austria actually I think in what is glacier melting that is my my shower became very short now maybe we have for one comment because someone would like to from before Martin will give us closing remarks with Lana please you'd like to comment okay well 20 seconds thank you for mentioning me because we are really where in we made this measurements for for 60 years and I just want first to say that we want publication actually in our journal we have our Ukrainian Antarctic journal so maybe for isotopes it's one comment and one question we said about generation and we speak about scientists so what kind of programs you have maybe in UN voted to train new generation maybe maybe it's long actually question but in fact I guess it's what we we need to think about the next generation of scientists in fact who will continue our measurements and who will actually make it not only as artificial artificial intelligence but with our brain intelligence well I can start at least from from the perspective of of Denmark and Greenland I mean what we're trying to do and I really appreciate your point about people are not and I I'm people as well I'm not able to understand the science that we produce because my brain doesn't really I can't comprehend it so what we need to do I think is really to to bridge the science that we do into a service and a very clear and communicative point so in Denmark for instance what we have done is is we've made a climate atlas so we take the the global IPCC models we downscaled it to a regional level at a european scale and then we downscaled it to a very local level at a local community scale so what are the sea level rise changes in in 10 50 100 years from Antarctica from Greenland and from the the ocean warming at the place that you live in Denmark and we're trying to do that in Greenland as well and we we produce it in a graphical way that is very very easy to understand and easy to explain and easy to talk about and I think that's something we need to do across all the different disciplines that we do and even when we have done this it's it's still difficult to to take up that knowledge and use it but I need to think I think that we need to continue the dialogue about it so more dialogue is really the the the key tool of thing to to give an insight to to new generations as well thank you very much very short comment and I think it's important to train not only scientists but also to make all the people aware that each human has to have a certain amount of water literacy which I define as a minimum understanding of the natural processes of the water cycle in this case in order to be able to understand the complexities and to develop within ourselves the needs for taking care of the planet thank you very much I would like to invite Martin thank you dear panelist I would like to close event with remarks from Martin Martin thank you Julia and thank you very much to our panel here what we heard this morning really helped to unpack the complexity that you have described you know if we look at the earth's processes the interaction between biosphere atmosphere cryosphere hydrosphere it's it's mind boggling when I was a student of geography many years ago one of the sub subjects that we had to study was glaciers and for us at the time and I'm talking about 30 something years ago glaciers that was a very remote topic a corner topic something of the remote past was not something in focus or relevant to our lives now what we have heard this morning really I think has made the case that the cryosphere and glaciers are something that deserves attention and focus what we have not really discussed this morning is the interaction or the connection or the teleconnection as somebody has said between the earth processes and the economic and social processes or the impacts on on people on our economy we have touched upon it a little bit you know at Jolanda but but that actually deserves another panel and maybe we should organize another panel to look at what actually are the impacts of sea level rise of of runoffs from from mountain rivers causing havoc sometimes downstreams in the valleys what are the impacts of those natural processes on our social and economic fabric so I'm working at the international atomic energy agency I'm a director there and you know we are working very closely of course with our department of nuclear applications but what we do is we in our department we have a number of of projects where we are trying to build capacity of local scientists to deal with isotopic science to build capacity in the laboratories to use isotopic science and and other nuclear techniques and applications such as the cosmic race sensor technique to build capacity in our member states to to to have a precise picture to come up with data to have precise science that underpins any policy action anything that you have been talking about that that needs to be done let me close maybe by I mean I I guess Julia you will thank the panel also but I really enjoyed this session I think somebody Irina I think you said when you were asked about what is the solution let's look forward I mean we are good in analyzing our problems here but what is the solution I mean net net zero is obviously the solution that we need to embrace and you know I I would close by saying investing in glaciers by accelerating the path to net zero is maybe the solution that we need to to promote thank you thank you Martin really with running of the time but it shows us how this subject is important which is why we cannot stop still a lot of aspects that we can discuss and probably next time we should make this event longer at least on half an hour so at the end I would like to thank all panelists it was really amazing to share all this experience we have with the diversity of the discussions and we understand now we should continue to look at this subject from different perspective from economic from cultural from scientific from artificial intelligence also so everything is important here so thank you once again and thank you for joining us today all audience and also audience on lines and thank you so we are